ann
Senior Member
Jesus did NOT say follow people .. He said follow ME!
Posts: 267
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Post by ann on Aug 16, 2007 14:44:56 GMT -5
Zorro, not to butt in here but I just have to let you know I agree 100% with what you are saying. I find it very distrubing that others discount someone's experience. I think it comes from fear and possibly envy if that person hasn't had an experience such as this. Thank you for wording it so well. ann
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Post by wingsofaneagle on Aug 16, 2007 15:19:10 GMT -5
think I understand what you're saying. But we still have a different perspective of the Spirit's work here. You appear to believe that the F&Ws fellowship is the "centerpiece" of the Spirit's work, yet God is gracious enough to work "outside", as well (I'm thinking that's why you would say that the Spirit's work still ties into the meetings). Is that fair to say? Correct me if I'm wrong. However, my perspective is that the F&Ws fellowship is simply one very small part of the universal, invisible Church (or body, if you prefer) and members are blessed no more or less than any other member of the body.
Beautifully said Zorro!! I agree 200%.
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Post by Jessi on Aug 20, 2007 16:02:44 GMT -5
Dear Scott:
Thank you for calling me to account for my words. However, let me clarify my position. What I meant to say is that the truth cannot hang on what one person thinks or feels (what if his blood sugar drops and he experiences more or less emotion/depth of feeling?). There is Truth--which is totally separate from what a man thinks or feels/believes -- and man must find it.
I have not said that one should not FEEL THINGS in his heart, but that ultimate TRUTH DOES NOT LIE in our hearts, that our hearts are deceitful and desperately wicked (Jer 17:9). We can still be wrong since we are still in the flesh, our sinful nature, trying to get the better of us (Rom 3:23, Is 14-3).
The Holy Spirit does not teach us apart from the Holy Word, which is sufficient for the Christian (Ps 19:7-14, II Tim 3:15-17)—he will always take us there. God does not tell individuals anything that is not revealed in His Holy Word for all to see. His Word is a public proclamation. Jesus declared Him.
Jeremiah 23 seems to say it all. One who declares anything apart from the Word of the Lord, the Lord has not sent -- and whoever walks according to the dictates of his own heart . . . could be in a lot of trouble (vss 16-17). The Holy Spirit, who moved holy men of God to speak His prophecy . . . surely does not disagree with Himself by revealing something to me personally or in my heart apart from the Word. So, I must check the word to see if what I feel matches God's Word.
The Truth is something very outside ourselves and He is a Person (Jn 14:6) and the Bible is all about Him, not me. So, in my search for the Truth, I dare not rely on my feelings and emotions before I filter them through my mind and reason about these things, comparing them with the Holy Word.
If I desire the truth, then, since I am sinful, fallible man, I must look for it outside myself. Because I have Christ in me, does not make me perfect. I am declared righteous (justified) and pure in the sight of God; but Righteousness is solely an attribute of the Lord, given to us ONLY through imputation of the righteousness of the Christ of God.
The wisdom and reason of the Holy Spirit is not without thought, for he does not teach me anything apart from the Holy Word, which I must study to show myself approved of God (II Tim 2:15). I have the MIND OF CHRIST (I Cor 2:16), so I must be transformed by the renewing of my MIND (Rom 12:2). There are two impulses in me. One in my MIND to obey the law, and one to serve the law of sin (Rom 7:25).
Here’s the best F&W example I can use, since I have been engaged in intense discussions with relatives lately over the deity of Jesus Christ:
What if someone will say, “I KNOW JESUS IS NOT GOD, BECAUSE I FEEL IT IN THE DEPTHS OF MY HEART.” How do you reason with that? Does there not have to be a measure of truth outside oneself to be compared with what one feels? Should I not reason with them from the Scriptures?
Would we not be at an impasse if we each declared our own Truth as we both FELT in our hearts? Our beliefs may be HEARTFELT. We may both be sincere . . . But one of us is sincerely wrong. I hope this clarifies a little better what I meant.
Christ's Forever,
Jessi
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Post by Brick on Aug 20, 2007 16:24:27 GMT -5
I stand with Junia and freespirit.
Junia said:
And freespirit said:
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Post by no name on Aug 20, 2007 17:12:39 GMT -5
I stand with Junia and freespirit. Junia said: And freespirit said: Same here . . .
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Post by Johnny DeRaad on Aug 20, 2007 18:55:06 GMT -5
For GIT and Ranman to have made accurate statements would mean that they have engaged in fellowship with every physical church body in the entire world! -by this, I mean every individual church building, of every denomination, in every village, town, city, country!..why every one?? ..because even amongst churches of the same denomination there are differences in pastors beliefs, understandings, preachings, movings of Spirit, etc. and what you didn't feel in one service may happen in a different one...I mean, maybe the pastor had a bad nite and didn't preach up to his normal capacity..but next week he hits it outta the park!! So then ya gotta factor in the acceptable number of times they have to attend a church before they can lay judgement on it's cornerstone as false, unworthy, lost... . . That being said..this may be stretching the limits of their time and travel capabilities just a tad and as such, I cannot accept their statements!! .. . . . This "church" we read of in the bible is the body of believers worldwide..period! . .. these denominations -IMO- mean nothing to God..He doesn't care one fig what color you paint your "building"..He wants a relationship with you..and you..and you..and you.. .. .. ..when that awesome day arrives and we stand in front of Him we won't be wearing different color'd robes to designate which church we went to. ..that we're THERE will say which church we belonged to!!
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 20, 2007 23:25:16 GMT -5
For GIT and Ranman to have made accurate statements would mean that they have engaged in fellowship with every physical church body in the entire world! -by this, I mean every individual church building, of every denomination, in every village, town, city, country!..
An interesting and valid point. However, when you consider that by this logic you could not disclaim anything as false until you had experienced it in its entirety, it becomes obvious that this is an extreme position. For instance, have you ever engaged in Hindu worship? If not, then you cannot say there is no Spirit there.
One must be careful about philsophical rules and hard-and-fast dictates. They tend to have a habit of cancelling out one's own beliefs as well as those of others we wish did not exist.
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Post by jh62 on Aug 20, 2007 23:28:48 GMT -5
Out of curiousity, GIT, you say you're familiar with many different churches...I'm wondering which churches you have extensive knowledge on, and if you wouldn't mind sharing with those of us with less experience, what some of the doctrines and beliefs are that you disagree with?
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 20, 2007 23:38:55 GMT -5
Out of curiousity, GIT, you say you're familiar with many different churches...I'm wondering which churches you have extensive knowledge on, and if you wouldn't mind sharing with those of us with less experience, what some of the doctrines and beliefs are that you disagree with?
I would love to do this, because you sound sincere.
I hope you will forgive me if I don't. I have learned from hard experience that open, frank and personal discussion does not belong on the TMB. As soon as someone starts to come across as a human being and a postive vibe emerges, it sparks off a flurry of negativity so as to stuff people back into their proper biscuit-cutter shapes again.
Sorry to sound so depressive.
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Post by Johnny DeRaad on Aug 21, 2007 0:02:49 GMT -5
For GIT and Ranman to have made accurate statements would mean that they have engaged in fellowship with every physical church body in the entire world! -by this, I mean every individual church building, of every denomination, in every village, town, city, country!..An interesting and valid point. However, when you consider that by this logic you could not disclaim anything as false until you had experienced it in its entirety, it becomes obvious that this is an extreme position. For instance, have you ever engaged in Hindu worship? If not, then you cannot say there is no Spirit there. One must be careful about philsophical rules and hard-and-fast dictates. They tend to have a habit of cancelling out one's own beliefs as well as those of others we wish did not exist. ..I think your making my point. . I'm coming from the other side of what you said. ... your claim of it being "most true"... .you didn't need to sample all the others to determine which was best..how is it you determine which is best without tasting every flavor... quoting you with a slight change in what you said..to clarify what I'm trying to say .. .."for instance, have you engaged in -EVERY FORM OF CHRISTIAN- worship? If not, then you cannot say there is no Spirit there."
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Post by ithascome on Aug 21, 2007 0:03:37 GMT -5
This is not a place for fellowship... sad to say.
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Post by in other words on Aug 21, 2007 0:04:12 GMT -5
Out of curiousity, GIT, you say you're familiar with many different churches...I'm wondering which churches you have extensive knowledge on, and if you wouldn't mind sharing with those of us with less experience, what some of the doctrines and beliefs are that you disagree with?I would love to do this, because you sound sincere. I hope you will forgive me if I don't. I have learned from hard experience that open, frank and personal discussion does not belong on the TMB. As soon as someone starts to come across as a human being and a postive vibe emerges, it sparks off a flurry of negativity so as to stuff people back into their proper biscuit-cutter shapes again. Sorry to sound so depressive. In other words, he has no personal experience with any other church.
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Post by jh62 on Aug 21, 2007 0:10:26 GMT -5
I understand, GIT. My experience of other churches is VERY limited. However, a few years back, I met someone from another religion that amazed me. I could clearly see this person loved God. Not just lip-service, ya know...but real love. I was shocked at the time. I couldn't believe a non-2x2 could love God. Have you ever met anyone like that?
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_
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Post by _ on Aug 21, 2007 0:48:08 GMT -5
I understand, GIT. My experience of other churches is VERY limited. However, a few years back, I met someone from another religion that amazed me. I could clearly see this person loved God. Not just lip-service, ya know...but real love. I was shocked at the time. I couldn't believe a non-2x2 could love God. Have you ever met anyone like that? I think what is more shocking is when you're professing and you meet a non-2x2 that is more Godly and has more love in your heart then any other person you've ever met... that really throws things for a loop...
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Aug 21, 2007 0:49:08 GMT -5
I stand with Junia and freespirit. Junia said: And freespirit said: Same here . . . Yeah, me three. M.
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 21, 2007 3:45:53 GMT -5
..I think your making my point. . I'm coming from the other side of what you said. ... your claim of it being "most true"... .you didn't need to sample all the others to determine which was best..how is it you determine which is best without tasting every flavor...
Another good point.
Remember, I was taking the logic presented and applying it to another situation to show how the logic breaks down and becomes self-refuting.
I don't subscribe to this logic. I believe in revelation.
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 21, 2007 3:47:53 GMT -5
In other words, he has no personal experience with any other church.
So that's the extent of my religious experience. Thanks for telling me - just so's I know's.
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 21, 2007 3:50:24 GMT -5
I could clearly see this person loved God. Not just lip-service, ya know...but real love. I was shocked at the time. I couldn't believe a non-2x2 could love God. Have you ever met anyone like that?
It's a good question. It made me think for a while. But I'd have to admit I don't think I have met anyone outside of the Fellowship who seems to love God as much as the Workers and older folks. This has been my personal experience, anyhow.
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Post by then on Aug 21, 2007 7:41:23 GMT -5
I could clearly see this person loved God. Not just lip-service, ya know...but real love. I was shocked at the time. I couldn't believe a non-2x2 could love God. Have you ever met anyone like that?It's a good question. It made me think for a while. But I'd have to admit I don't think I have met anyone outside of the Fellowship who seems to love God as much as the Workers and older folks. This has been my personal experience, anyhow. What a coincidence. I haven't seen a love for God from you either.
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Post by well on Aug 21, 2007 7:41:59 GMT -5
In other words, he has no personal experience with any other church.So that's the extent of my religious experience. Thanks for telling me - just so's I know's. Well, at least you didn't deny it. You would make yourself a liar if you did.
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Post by Johnny DeRaad on Aug 21, 2007 8:42:24 GMT -5
[quote author=gloryintruth
I don't subscribe to this logic. I believe in revelation.[/quote]
. .....I had a revelation too!!.. .now what do I do with it?? ..can we have different revelations??
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Post by cool sig on Aug 21, 2007 10:11:31 GMT -5
Johnny's sig says:
Just remember..Custer had a plan too...and history reveals his didn't work out so well!
What does history reveal about 2x2ism?
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elle
Junior Member
Posts: 192
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Post by elle on Aug 21, 2007 18:27:37 GMT -5
Well I'm with dietcoke, junia, freespirit and wanttobewithgod too. I'm a current 2x2.
Meetings cannot be the true way- no church group can be.
Jesus is the true way.
I don't believe there is a true church as such but there are true believers. My experience is limited but I think it is likely there are true believers in all groups- in the F&W and in others. Like others have posted, I've meet Christians who are not in the F&W but I recognise the Spirit of God in their lives ust as I recognise His spirit in some F&Ws.
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Post by jh62 on Aug 21, 2007 20:48:51 GMT -5
That's exactly how it was, fmofthe2x2's. I was 'professing' at the time, and you're right, it DID really throw things for a loop! This person went to studies every morning for an hour just to learn about God. I'm not talking about studies like the Wednes. night bible studies where everyone gave their testimony.
GIT, do you suppose that's the reason you feel the 2x2 way is the best? I'm not trying to pick a fight, but just want to ask an honest question....If you met someone like that (someone you could see that they truly loved God), would you think they should be part of the 2x2's or would you think they were doing ok in the church they belonged to?
Ya know, I said I can see this person truly loves God, and I believe I can, but I'm not sure how I became convinced of this. How do we know if someone truly loves God or not?
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elle
Junior Member
Posts: 192
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Post by elle on Aug 21, 2007 21:04:42 GMT -5
ow, I said I can see this person truly loves God, and I believe I can, but I'm not sure how I became convinced of this. How do we know if someone truly loves God or not? by the fruit of the spirit in their life M at 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. [KJV]
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Post by jh62 on Aug 21, 2007 21:10:41 GMT -5
But what exactly are the fruits? I suppose something like long-suffering, etc., but is it possible that even atheists could have those fruits?
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elle
Junior Member
Posts: 192
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Post by elle on Aug 21, 2007 21:13:58 GMT -5
how about true love for fellow men- again Jesus said this is how we would know his disciples. But I do agree with you- its hard to split hairs on this!
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