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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 12, 2007 6:11:01 GMT -5
[Sylvestra Wrote] 2x2's are not saved, according to this answer. I believe it is clearly taught in scripture that salvation is an event that takes place in the past ("by grace you have been saved"), the present ("we who are being saved"), and the future ("looking above from whence cometh our redemption"). Contentions regarding the actual, real time of the salvific event often magnify one "salvific tense" over others.
In my view, it is consistent with scripture to say we are saved, because the Apostles speak of salvation as something in which Christians are already participants. Furthermore, our hymnbook contains a number of hymns which express or reflect the belief of already belonging to the kingdom: "Fair are the prospects all ahead"; these are hardly the words of a perspective that suggests salvation is a hazy concept in which we can have no personal confidence!
I have heard it declared plainly and postively at convention that "Yes! We are saved" and I have often spoken of this in fellowship meetings myself. I have no quarrel with those who think otherwise, because it is equally true to say that the fullest magnitude of salvation is still shored up and is to come: "be of good cheer, for our salvation draws near", said the Apostle. But I also think that to maintain the position that we are not participants in salvation to some degree now is to make certain other passages of scripture slightly nonsensical.
I have no problem with Bert's views, although admittedly, my perspective is somewhat different.
[Sylvestra Wrote] This is the very (very issue many of the X's have expressed as a reason to never go back to the thinking expressed by the F & W! With perhaps one or two exceptions, I have never come across an ex-2x2 whose primary motivation in leaving the fellowship were doctrinal differences with the friends, or theological conflict with the teachings presented by the workers in the area. Were the main source of disagreement between the ex-2x2s and the friends only an issue of doctrine, then we would not see the angst and hostile sprays to which we are by now accustomed to seeing on this forum. After all, Baptists and Roman Catholics strongly disagree with each other over doctrine, yet they do not actively white-ant each other.
I find the level - the degree - of hostility shown by some to be quite a telling point. I wonder if anyone else sees the significance of this?
The workers and elders are NOT teaching the difference between the finished gift of salvation and the REWARD that we are working toward. I hammer on this frequently, as you know. Is there any hope of getting you to really look at the difference? Does scripture make any distinction between the two? I could be found in error on this point, but I cannot now recall any passages which would separate the two. As far as I am aware, one is contingent on the other: "faith without works is dead".
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 12, 2007 6:20:34 GMT -5
[An Anonymous Poster Wrote] GIT lies again. He says "Dear Brad" Does anyone really believe GIT considers Brad dear" -GIT lies again
Oh, the depths which need to be plumbed; the barrel bottoms that must be scraped in order to find something - anything - to level against me.
For the information of this anonymous poster, the term "dear" at the beginning of a note is a textual convention, and comprises nothing more than an accepted form of address.
Perhaps you have not observed this, my anonymous interlocutor, but when your banking institution, or your electricity, water or gas company contacts you via letter in your mailbox, they all use the term "dear" in their correspondence. I think they may even use it in email communication.
Are these organisations also rampant liars, as you charge, because they use standard English conventions? Of course not.
The fact you felt the need to make a meal out of the use of one word; and to consequently accuse me of being dishonest, says a lot, I think, about the credibility and motivations of some people on this forum. I guess when you have nothing meaingful to say, you need to resort to this kind of rhetoric.
Regards.
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 12, 2007 6:21:32 GMT -5
GIT lies again.
This implies I have lied before. Could you please draw my attention to any statement I have made that has been found to be dishonest?
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Post by Sylvestra on Aug 12, 2007 6:46:16 GMT -5
From git Sylvestra Wrote: 2x2's are not saved, according to this answer.
I believe it is clearly taught in scripture that salvation is an event that takes place in the past ("by grace you have been saved"), the present ("we who are being saved"), and the future ("looking above from whence cometh our redemption"). Contentions regarding the actual, real time of the salvific event often magnify one "salvific tense" over others.Dear git, From Edy: I wish you had also given the question asked, and bert's answer to it. It was (something like) "Are the friends saved?" and his answer, "No."
I appreciate that you are not in agreement with his belief on this! From git: In my view, it is consistent with scripture to say we are saved, because the Apostles speak of salvation as something in which Christians are already participants. Furthermore, our hymnbook contains a number of hymns which express or reflect the belief of already belonging to the kingdom: "Fair are the prospects all ahead"; these are hardly the words of a perspective that suggests salvation is a hazy concept in which we can have no personal confidence!
I have heard it declared plainly and postively at convention that "Yes! We are saved" and I have often spoken of this in fellowship meetings myself. I have no quarrel with those who think otherwise, because it is equally true to say that the fullest magnitude of salvation is still shored up and is to come: "be of good cheer, for our salvation draws near", said the Apostle. But I also think that to maintain the position that we are not participants in salvation to some degree now is to make certain other passages of scripture slightly nonsensical.
From Edy: I understand that the word "salvation" means "Yeshua", which is the sacred name of our Messiah and that there is a fine line between Salvation (the person) and salvation (the action) and we must be careful to determine exactly which is "drawing near
From git: I have no problem with Bert's views, although admittedly, my perspective is somewhat different.
[Sylvestra Wrote] This is the very (very issue many of the X's have expressed as a reason to never go back to the thinking expressed by the F & W! With perhaps one or two exceptions, I have never come across an ex-2x2 whose primary motivation in leaving the fellowship were doctrinal differences with the friends, or theological conflict with the teachings presented by the workers in the area. Were the main source of disagreement between the ex-2x2s and the friends only an issue of doctrine, then we would not see the angst and hostile sprays to which we are by now accustomed to seeing on this forum. After all, Baptists and Roman Catholics strongly disagree with each other over doctrine, yet they do not actively white-ant each other.
From Edy: git, there are a number here who have left the F & W because of doctrinal issues! Sojourner and Cherie come to immediately! Much of the angst (and possibly the hostility as well) comes from the continued division that the "leavings" have created with families still in the F & W, as well as the realization that we have loved ones who are still stuck in the toxic relationships with the F & W. Now, I agree that there are some within the F & W who have a solid relationship with the Lord directly and not with or through the church! They would have the relationship with the Lord no matter what Christian church they are found in fellowship with!
From git: I find the level - the degree - of hostility shown by some to be quite a telling point. I wonder if anyone else sees the significance of this?
From Edy: Their hostility may tell you one thing, but tell others something else entirely! What is it telling you?
From git: (quoting Edy) The workers and elders are NOT teaching the difference between the finished gift of salvation and the REWARD that we are working toward. I hammer on this frequently, as you know. Is there any hope of getting you to really look at the difference? Does scripture make any distinction between the two? I could be found in error on this point, but I cannot now recall any passages which would separate the two. As far as I am aware, one is contingent on the other: "faith without works is dead".
From Edy: Please take a very hard look at 1 Cor. 3:10-15. v. 10: According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
v.11: For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. ( note: Can we agree here that Jesus Christ/Yeshua = Salvation, and that is the FOUNDATION?)
v.12: Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
v. 13: Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
v. 14: If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a REWARD.
V.15: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be SAVED; yet so as by fire.
There is a record in Paul's writings (won't look it up right now) where he said he was running a race and was concerned about failing or coming short of the prize. He was not talking about loosing his salvation, but about his reward coming to nothing.
Yet in another place when he was talking to (was it Timothy?) he said he KNEW that which he had committed would be kept "until that day". (The hymn "I Know In Whom I Have Believed" - one of my favorites - is written from these verses.) To Timothy he was writing about his salvation, not his reward.
It's 4:45 AM now, and I have to get everyone up to leave for the airport in 15 minutes so this will be all!
Best regards! Edy
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2007 7:28:11 GMT -5
[Sylvestra Wrote] 2x2's are not saved, according to this answer.I believe it is clearly taught in scripture that salvation is an event that takes place in the past ("by grace you have been saved"), the present ("we who are being saved"), and the future ("looking above from whence cometh our redemption"). Contentions regarding the actual, real time of the salvific event often magnify one "salvific tense" over others.
In my view, it is consistent with scripture to say we are saved, because the Apostles speak of salvation as something in which Christians are already participants. Furthermore, our hymnbook contains a number of hymns which express or reflect the belief of already belonging to the kingdom: "Fair are the prospects all ahead"; these are hardly the words of a perspective that suggests salvation is a hazy concept in which we can have no personal confidence!
I have heard it declared plainly and postively at convention that "Yes! We are saved" and I have often spoken of this in fellowship meetings myself. I have no quarrel with those who think otherwise, because it is equally true to say that the fullest magnitude of salvation is still shored up and is to come: "be of good cheer, for our salvation draws near", said the Apostle. But I also think that to maintain the position that we are not participants in salvation to some degree now is to make certain other passages of scripture slightly nonsensical.
I have no problem with Bert's views, although admittedly, my perspective is somewhat different.
[Sylvestra Wrote] This is the very (very issue many of the X's have expressed as a reason to never go back to the thinking expressed by the F & W! With perhaps one or two exceptions, I have never come across an ex-2x2 whose primary motivation in leaving the fellowship were doctrinal differences with the friends, or theological conflict with the teachings presented by the workers in the area. Were the main source of disagreement between the ex-2x2s and the friends only an issue of doctrine, then we would not see the angst and hostile sprays to which we are by now accustomed to seeing on this forum. After all, Baptists and Roman Catholics strongly disagree with each other over doctrine, yet they do not actively white-ant each other.
I find the level - the degree - of hostility shown by some to be quite a telling point. I wonder if anyone else sees the significance of this?
The workers and elders are NOT teaching the difference between the finished gift of salvation and the REWARD that we are working toward. I hammer on this frequently, as you know. Is there any hope of getting you to really look at the difference? Does scripture make any distinction between the two? I could be found in error on this point, but I cannot now recall any passages which would separate the two. As far as I am aware, one is contingent on the other: "faith without works is dead". Good post GIT. I have briefly mulled over the multi-tense references to salvation in the NT in the past, realizing that often the confusion over OSAS, assured salvation, confident salvation, salvation-in-process, and future salvation lies in these different references. People tend to latch on to one of the references and go with it. You put out an interesting idea to accept all three tenses at once. It is an intellectual stretch to do so, but if one can do it, it does help harmonize Bible references. Re: doctrinal difference. I have run into many exes who have left due to doctrinal differences, and their angst is understandable. Some people throw their whole beings into certain teachings right from childhood, but when they come to believe that those teachings are wrong and feel that it is proven wrong, it turns their lives upside down. The emotional upheaval is huge, like having an anchor severed in rough seas. I find the angst and anger over doctrinal differences to be perfectly logical, if unfortunate, response. I have run into this same upheaval with some Catholics after VaticanII. Some folks who threw their whole beings into pre-school catechism as small children, found it swept away later and were devastated. There is a tremendous amount of cynicism, perhaps hatred, toward the RCC today from lapsed Catholics because of their upbringing and early life teachings. Some people just rolled with the changes of VaticanII, others have never recovered. You are a very analytical person by the looks of it, so for you, dealing with doctrinal differences is more like doing a jigsaw puzzle, moving the pieces around and fitting them in, no significant emotion involved. So you may be superimposing your own experience over that of others.
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 12, 2007 17:52:54 GMT -5
From Edy: I understand that the word "salvation" means "Yeshua", which is the sacred name of our Messiah and that there is a fine line between Salvation (the person) and salvation (the action) and we must be careful to determine exactly which is "drawing near".
This is an interesting point. I was not aware that salvation can refer to Jesus in the New Testament, but if it does, this appeals to me as a wonderful confirmation of the truth of the Christian Gospel, fitly framed together in every aspect!
If I find the time this afternoon, just for personal interest, I might look this reference up in Green's Literal Translation of the Greek Manuscripts to see whether it is the person or the principle that is here in view.
[Sylvestra Wrote] Much of the angst (and possibly the hostility as well) comes from the continued division that the "leavings" have created with families still in the F & W, as well as the realization that we have loved ones who are still stuck in the toxic relationships with the F & W.
You will forgive me if I take issue with the use of the term "toxic relationships". Whilst it is true that there are some in the fellowship who are not nice people and may do and say things contrary to the teachings of the Christian gospel, it is also important to point out that this is the universal condition of humanity; to be found in every denomination and church. Yes, it ought not so to be, but regrettably it is reality.
Moreover, I am not entirely convinced that the source of angst is family division any more than it is doctrinal differences. The fact that I am routinely villified on this forum, for example, suggests to me a much deeper disconnect; a certain existential emptiness (I was a functional nihilist at college, so I can appreciate philosophical wanderings); a search for validity and validation.
From what I read on this forum, a lot of former members put a lot of stock in two aspects of the fellowship. Firstly, the widely-held belief that the fellowship is the only true Church, and secondly, that it is the only continuous church from the time of Jesus.
Discovering that the second beliefs is not strictly accurate, the same members have had their entire universe shattered, with the old, solid and faithful laws that previously guided their worldview suddenly reversed in a heartbeat. Consequently they have jettisoned the first belief, leaving a gaping void.
I admit that, even for me, it was stressful to go through this process of exploration, but in my favour, my parents brought us up with a primary faith in Christ.
[Sylvestra Wrote] Now, I agree that there are some within the F & W who have a solid relationship with the Lord directly and not with or through the church! They would have the relationship with the Lord no matter what Christian church they are found in fellowship with!
I would take issue with your use of the adjective "some". I think a better word would be "many".
From Edy: Please take a very hard look at 1 Cor. 3:10-15. I am quite familiar with this text, having passionately argued this chapter in the past with Roman Catholic apologists. Not only have I performed a complete exegesis on this chapter, but I have also compared it with other relevant scripture (within its own context and outside of its context) to ascertain its full breadth of meaning.
(Roman Catholics, of course, use this chapter and these verses, to promote the belief of Purgatory - the alleged place of temporary punishment for the purification of the souls of the saved before their entry into heaven.) Yet, quite clearly, this entire chapter refers to one group of Christians - ministers - and one type of activity - ministry. The chapter makes reference to sound doctrines, and the results of teaching correct or incorrect doctrine for the individual minister.
I am happy to discuss this with you further.
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Post by after much talk on Aug 12, 2007 18:39:05 GMT -5
GIT talks a long time, yet he is unable to address the issue regarding his belief that non-2x2s are doomed to a lost eternity due to their non-2x2 status.
Until GIT address this basic point, all his other stacks of voluminous writing are moot.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2007 18:41:17 GMT -5
Are 2x2's saved?
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Post by Ask Them on Aug 12, 2007 19:07:40 GMT -5
Nathan9 and GIT, are you saved? Enquiring minds seem to want to know.
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Post by Anonymous on Aug 12, 2007 20:02:16 GMT -5
Sure anonymous! I will bite.
Yes, I am saved by the precious blood of Jesus Christ who died for me and for those who put their trust in Him as the Lord God and Savior.
How about you enquiring mind? are you saved? How were you saved? [/size] « Last Edit: Today at 7:52pm by Nathan9 » [/quote] Thanks for the reply. So nice that you indicated nothing about having fellowship with the friends and workers. So refreshing. The enquiring minds are bert's and/or prue's. S/he asked the question if 2x2's are saved. My salvation would be the same as yours and anyone else. As yours is not enhanced by choosing fellowship (limited as it is, maybe for the better?) with the friends and workers neither is mine diminished by choosing not to have fellowship with the friends and workers.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2007 20:09:05 GMT -5
Are you then friends with the world? Are you friends with people God couldn't be friends with? Can you identify with attitudes that are daily growing further from God? Are you at home with things which end at the grave? Are you comfortable with doctrines which pick and chose from God's word?
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Post by _ on Aug 12, 2007 20:12:14 GMT -5
My primary reason for leaving the fellowship was due to doctrinal differences....
I guess that makes me an exception in your book... right GiT?
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Post by dear bert on Aug 12, 2007 20:33:44 GMT -5
bert,
Are you saved?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2007 21:27:57 GMT -5
Like our dear brother Paul - one of the great saints of the bible, God's chosen vessel, the one who gave us more books of the scripture than any other man and the one altered Western thought profoundly - I hold to "strong hope" of salvation.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 12, 2007 22:06:13 GMT -5
Howdy,
I also like what Paul had to say about being saved.Ephesians 2 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions— it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. I consider myself saved. Not because of anything I have done or will do, but by the unearned gift of grace. Any good works which are manifest in my life are because of that unearned gift of grace. Scott
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Post by _ on Aug 12, 2007 23:19:37 GMT -5
bert,
what is your response to the verses scott listed?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2007 23:23:54 GMT -5
quote - "created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
I am glad our biker bro Scott mentioned that last bit... plenty ignore it. To do good works means just that - we don't do God's works then we don't receive His saving grace, IMO
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Post by dear bertwist on Aug 12, 2007 23:30:39 GMT -5
bertwister,
Scott didn't say that, and neither does the Bible.
p.s. Are you saved?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2007 0:04:56 GMT -5
quote from the bible - "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
I read that as saying we are required to our part too. Certainly Paul did his works, so too did Peter, John, James, Jude, Apollos, Cephas, Timothy et al. Take their advice.
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Post by _ on Aug 13, 2007 0:58:38 GMT -5
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Post by _ on Aug 13, 2007 0:59:44 GMT -5
quote from the bible - "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." I read that as saying we are required to our part too. Certainly Paul did his works, so too did Peter, John, James, Jude, Apollos, Cephas, Timothy et al. Take their advice. We do not do works in order to get saved... since our works will never merit or earn our salvation... we do them because we are transformed followers of Jesus Christ... fmofthe2x2s.blogspot.com/2005/03/grace-vs-works.html
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2007 1:31:48 GMT -5
quote - "Good works are the result of his saving grace... not the cause of it..."
Lets not argue over what comes first: grace or works. Lets concern ourselves with what comes second, ie showing we have this grace by the demonstration of our works.
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Post by _ on Aug 13, 2007 6:19:50 GMT -5
Lets not argue over what comes first: grace or works. But your works will never beget God's Grace... something you do not understand... Your works will never result in Salvation... It is the main point... it is why Jesus came to earth... We are saved through faith, which is from God, by the blood of Christ, via the Grace of God, and not by our own efforts/works!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2007 7:33:26 GMT -5
frofthe2x2s, do YOU believe the Pope is saved?
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Post by _ on Aug 13, 2007 12:54:55 GMT -5
frofthe2x2s, do YOU believe the Pope is saved? Do you?
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Post by to bertwister on Aug 13, 2007 13:03:23 GMT -5
frofthe2x2s, do YOU believe the Pope is saved? You were asked if you were saved....are you?
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Post by Sylvestra on Aug 13, 2007 16:40:00 GMT -5
From Edy: Please take a very hard look at 1 Cor. 3:10-15. I am quite familiar with this text, having passionately argued this chapter in the past with Roman Catholic apologists. Not only have I performed a complete exegesis on this chapter, but I have also compared it with other relevant scripture (within its own context and outside of its context) to ascertain its full breadth of meaning.
(Roman Catholics, of course, use this chapter and these verses, to promote the belief of Purgatory - the alleged place of temporary punishment for the purification of the souls of the saved before their entry into heaven.) Yet, quite clearly, this entire chapter refers to one group of Christians - ministers - and one type of activity - ministry. The chapter makes reference to sound doctrines, and the results of teaching correct or incorrect doctrine for the individual minister.
I am happy to discuss this with you further.[/quote]
git,
So what you are saying is that only ministers (or in the case of those who believe the workers are the only true ministers) the workers are the only ones to whom there will be a difference between their "salvation" and their "reward"?
Best, Edy
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Post by Sylvestra on Aug 13, 2007 16:57:11 GMT -5
Are we 2x2's saved? No. Do we hold to strong hope of salvation, and seek to work out this salvation with fear and trembling? Yes. Is the Pope saved? Hardly, he largely rejects the teachings of Christ, and hugely rejects the example of the New Testament. But we can pray for him. Over to you, Brad ;D Dear bert, I've been thinking about your "hope" answer for a couple of days. I believe you are using the word "hope" differently than the verses I believe you are alluding to mean it to be. It seems that you are saying you are waiting for something that "might" happen. According to my Strong's this hope means: "favorable and confident expectation, a forward look with assurance." I have the assurance of Christ's finished work on the cross. This finished work does not need me to help it along! Edy
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