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Debt
Aug 7, 2007 12:42:34 GMT -5
Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 7, 2007 12:42:34 GMT -5
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. Any comments on this? Some say debt is OK. Please list your: A) sources b) answer Thanks, Brad
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Debt
Aug 7, 2007 13:31:31 GMT -5
Post by _ on Aug 7, 2007 13:31:31 GMT -5
so by your understanding, no Christian should have a mortgage or student loans?
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Debt
Aug 7, 2007 13:54:32 GMT -5
Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Aug 7, 2007 13:54:32 GMT -5
Personally (meaning, no sources whatsoever), I feel that there's a difference between responsible debt and irresponsible debt.
Home loan, student loans, car loans... pay them on time, be responsible.
On the other hand, racking up debt by using credit cards is not a good idea (in most cases). Especially if you don't particularly need something, but choose to put it on the card because you either don't have the money or don't want to spend the money now.
That being said.... I have been fairly irresponsible with finances and have been convicted of this sin. I cut up all our credit cards and we do not use them anymore. If we cannot pay cash for something (or use our debit card, equally cash, since we dont like to carry around cash because it burns holes in our pockets) we don't get it/do it.
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Debt
Aug 7, 2007 20:26:28 GMT -5
Post by debt on Aug 7, 2007 20:26:28 GMT -5
I feel that as a Christian I should be debt-free. However now that I have a husband and a small child, we wanted to purchase a house to raise our kid in (instead of renting apartments) so we took a bank loan to buy our house. I also needed a car to drive to work so we borrowed some money from a bank to buy a car.
I also borrowed money to get a degree. I dont know if its wrong, but at least I did not borrow from a "man"-but a financial institution, and we make our payments in a timely fashion. I think in this day and age to have house and auto debt is somewhat acceptable to God.
However as a Christian, I would like to follow the bible and be debt free...but then How would my husband get to work with no bus lines, and he needs the car for work.
So its OK I think in some cases.
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Deleted
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Debt
Aug 7, 2007 21:03:59 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2007 21:03:59 GMT -5
I feel that as a Christian I should be debt-free. However now that I have a husband and a small child, we wanted to purchase a house to raise our kid in (instead of renting apartments) so we took a bank loan to buy our house. I also needed a car to drive to work so we borrowed some money from a bank to buy a car. I also borrowed money to get a degree. I dont know if its wrong, but at least I did not borrow from a "man"-but a financial institution, and we make our payments in a timely fashion. I think in this day and age to have house and auto debt is somewhat acceptable to God. However as a Christian, I would like to follow the bible and be debt free...but then How would my husband get to work with no bus lines, and he needs the car for work. So its OK I think in some cases. Advocating against debt during Bible times would have made perfect sense. It's not the debt itself that is evil, but it is the potential of becoming in bondage to an evil and/or unscrupulous creditor. Horrendous outcomes were associated with non-repayment of debt. Today, the lending industry is highly regulated, and full disclosures of pertinent information about loans have to be made to the borrower. There is much to prevent unscrupulous creditors today from overwhelming a debtor today, including the bankruptcy provisions. Lenders today want the borrowers to be doing well, working in jobs and not overly encumbered by debt should they have to face bankruptcy and receive only a portion of the principle back. Breaking kneecaps is no longer an acceptable collections procedure. None of this existed back when debt was frowned upon. A wise person in those days would avoid debt like the plague, or their life could quickly become no longer their own. Still, borrowing needs to be done responsibly today, because like any promise, it should be kept and paid, and no one should be borrowing for grocery money imo. ie all debt should be offset by a greater valued asset so that the debtor becomes no one's slave. Sorry no Bible verses to back this up, one simply needs to understand the reasons for the biblical prohibitions.
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Debt
Aug 7, 2007 21:06:57 GMT -5
Post by jh62 on Aug 7, 2007 21:06:57 GMT -5
Very informative post, Clearday!
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Debt
Aug 8, 2007 13:46:12 GMT -5
Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Aug 8, 2007 13:46:12 GMT -5
Basically, it comes down to being a good steward in all things, especially financially.
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Debt
Aug 8, 2007 14:06:30 GMT -5
Post by Brother Schrock on Aug 8, 2007 14:06:30 GMT -5
Good post, Clearday. Here's a question. If I go enter into a mortgage contract for the purchase of a house am I going into debt? Or do I have offsetting assets and liabilities?
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Deleted
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Debt
Aug 8, 2007 14:38:58 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2007 14:38:58 GMT -5
Good post, Clearday. Here's a question. If I go enter into a mortgage contract for the purchase of a house am I going into debt? Or do I have offsetting assets and liabilities? Yes you are going into debt, but in this case, you will have assets in excess of your liabilities. A traditional mortgage debt is 75% of your total asset value. With traditional financing, it is unlikely that your creditor will ever become your "master" with that kind of debt:equity ratio unless there was an unprecedented market crash. Higher ratio mortgages are more risky for both the buyer and the lender because the real estate market could easily dip 10% and wipe out more than your equity, leaving you with debt unsupported by assets. A prudent borrower would put at least 25% down on the house (with personal funds or a forgivable loan from mom and dad), amortized in as short a period as possible and you would never have to lose much sleep over your debt as the house could be sold and all debt paid in a catastrophic event such as job loss. Another example of "good" debt would be to borrow to invest in something that will earn more than the interest payments. The borrower needs to really know what they are investing in though. Vehicle debt is more borderline as a vehicle asset declines rapidly in value. Prudent borrowing would feature a sizable downpayment of at least 25% and monthly payments that comfortably exceed the total of interest plus depreciation. I would be inclined to call debt for a principal residence to be "virtuous" debt. Mortgage repayment is often the only form of savings for retirement that many people engage in. Plus, over the long run, real estate always appreciates in value. So this forms the fundamental basis for a worry free retirement for many people. Hope this makes sense.
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Debt
Aug 9, 2007 1:14:10 GMT -5
Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 9, 2007 1:14:10 GMT -5
I feel that as a Christian I should be debt-free. However now that I have a husband and a small child, we wanted to purchase a house to raise our kid in (instead of renting apartments) so we took a bank loan to buy our house. I also needed a car to drive to work so we borrowed some money from a bank to buy a car. I also borrowed money to get a degree. I dont know if its wrong, but at least I did not borrow from a "man"-but a financial institution, and we make our payments in a timely fashion. I think in this day and age to have house and auto debt is somewhat acceptable to God. However as a Christian, I would like to follow the bible and be debt free...but then How would my husband get to work with no bus lines, and he needs the car for work. So its OK I think in some cases. It's much easier to post opinions if there is no scripture alongside it. It just makes it look better. (an obersvation) A) Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. I bought supper today with money I had earned. From money I had earned from a legitimate business, not cash under the table. From a business I own and built from the ground up. And tonight I will sleep in my mobile home (purchased for $2750) in which I am happy to live in because I cannot afford more. And I drove around today in a pickup that is paid for. But I owe the government for taxes for last year and for a previous employees taxes, which I'm paying off. I feel great about the car, home, business and supper, but God still convicts me to pay off my taxes and debt for when I was asked by Phu Nguyen to leave his house and when my mother broke her promise to me (never trust your 2x2 mother to keep her word) And today, I got a huge contract that when I've fulfilled, will pay off all my monetary debts. B) Praise God for his word that convicts me of sin and tells me what to do to have peace in my soul. Praise God for that Brad
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Debt
Aug 9, 2007 8:20:55 GMT -5
Post by guesttoday on Aug 9, 2007 8:20:55 GMT -5
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
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Debt
Aug 9, 2007 8:39:26 GMT -5
Post by Stefan on Aug 9, 2007 8:39:26 GMT -5
Brad,
I know very few homeowners who don't have debt. I'm guessing that most of the people that you go to Church with (or bible study) have debt. The only people I know of who don't have debt are workers. You even have debt. What is your point?
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Debt
Aug 9, 2007 9:44:51 GMT -5
Post by ranman77007 on Aug 9, 2007 9:44:51 GMT -5
A: ranman7700-7 dwarfs B: i owe, i owe, its off to work i go
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Debt
Aug 9, 2007 9:54:01 GMT -5
Post by Henry on Aug 9, 2007 9:54:01 GMT -5
Any time you owe someone something, you are in bondage to that person (institution).
"Ye who has the gold is the master"
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Debt
Aug 9, 2007 10:41:32 GMT -5
Post by las logged out on Aug 9, 2007 10:41:32 GMT -5
To Brad Yes Brad the law sure isn't complicated at all is it...we know all the law is fulfilled by loving our neighbour has thyself...easy to say but to actually do is a life long venture
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Posts: 206
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Debt
Aug 9, 2007 11:34:56 GMT -5
Post by 3 on Aug 9, 2007 11:34:56 GMT -5
This is one of those subjects that is rarely, if at all, touched upon in the 2x2 church yet popular with mainstream christianity.
I can recall only one time when a worker spoke about debt. And, it was in the context of debt is so incredibly burdensome so be wary of it (good advice).
A devout Christian friend of mine went into business for himself. When he floundered financially, we suggested he get a line of credit to tide him over when money was scarce. (Having been in the construction industry where it's often 'feast or famine', our business would not have survived had we not used a line of credit.) Our friend felt convicted not to take on debt in any form. He eventually filed bankruptcy (the type where his debt was written off, not re-organized).
What I can't reconcile in my mind is: he felt convicted to be debt free = being a good steward in God's opinion yet he filed bankruptcy which we all know adversely affects other businesses. He may be debt free today but what about other businesses who may have had to go into debt b/c they did not receive compensation from him? How can he justify his lack of debt when it likely created hardship on others?
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Deleted
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Debt
Aug 9, 2007 11:51:38 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2007 11:51:38 GMT -5
This is one of those subjects that is rarely, if at all, touched upon in the 2x2 church yet popular with mainstream christianity. I can recall only one time when a worker spoke about debt. And, it was in the context of debt is so incredibly burdensome so be wary of it (good advice). A devout Christian friend of mine went into business for himself. When he floundered financially, we suggested he get a line of credit to tide him over when money was scarce. (Having been in the construction industry where it's often 'feast or famine', our business would not have survived had we not used a line of credit.) Our friend felt convicted not to take on debt in any form. He eventually filed bankruptcy (the type where his debt was written off, not re-organized). What I can't reconcile in my mind is: he felt convicted to be debt free = being a good steward in God's opinion yet he filed bankruptcy which we all know adversely affects other businesses. He may be debt free today but what about other businesses who may have had to go into debt b/c they did not receive compensation from him? How can he justify his lack of debt when it likely created hardship on others? The bankruptcy issue is a good one. While you cite one friend who had no problem liberally using the bankruptcy provision of the law, I have also known of several friends who wound up in a severe negative net worth position and were completely unwilling to do anything other than pay it all back. Admirable people for their willingness to stick to their promise to pay, especially knowing that there are some workers who would have advised them to go the bankruptcy route. It really all boils down to staying true to a vow, not unlike the marriage vow. While I am reluctant to condemn anyone for using the bankruptcy provision of the law, it would be utterly wrong to use it simply as a debt management tool to blow off creditors because of one's own bad management of financial affairs.
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Debt
Aug 9, 2007 11:59:23 GMT -5
Post by help from within on Aug 9, 2007 11:59:23 GMT -5
Admirable people for their willingness to stick to their promise to pay, especially knowing that there are some workers who would have advised them to go the bankruptcy route.I continue to be amazed by stories like this that remind me that some people are dumb enough and helpless enough to take advice on financial woes and marital problems from workers (or any paster). Get religious help from your religious leaders. Get financial help from finance experts. Get marriage help from marriage counselors. Get a clue... from anywhere!
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Debt
Aug 9, 2007 12:00:52 GMT -5
Post by help from within on Aug 9, 2007 12:00:52 GMT -5
I continue to be amazed by stories like this that remind me that some people are dumb enough and helpless enough to take advice on financial woes and marital problems from workers (or any paster). and I amaze myself with my own poor typing ability! (paster should have been pastor). Sorry! ;D
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Debt
Aug 9, 2007 13:57:22 GMT -5
Post by ScholarGal on Aug 9, 2007 13:57:22 GMT -5
Yes you are going into debt, but in this case, you will have assets in excess of your liabilities. A traditional mortgage debt is 75% of your total asset value. With traditional financing, it is unlikely that your creditor will ever become your "master" with that kind of debt:equity ratio unless there was an unprecedented market crash. Higher ratio mortgages are more risky for both the buyer and the lender because the real estate market could easily dip 10% and wipe out more than your equity, leaving you with debt unsupported by assets. This is something that has affected me personally recently. Because of a severe downturn in the housing market, the value of my home was appraised at 12% less this year compared to last year. The good news is that my property taxes will be lower. The bad news is that my equity in the house would just barely cover the cost of selling the house and moving to an apartment. Fortunately, I don't see any need to sell in the near future. But rather than forgetting about the risk, I am working to liquidate some other assets and pay down the mortgage as much as I can. It is much easier to find money in my budget when I am not in financial crisis. Unsecured debt of any kind bothers me. It always has. I will have a lot more peace when I am sure that my mortgage isn't in danger of turning upside down if I have to sell the house unexpectedly. scholarGal
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Debt
Aug 9, 2007 14:36:23 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2007 14:36:23 GMT -5
Yes you are going into debt, but in this case, you will have assets in excess of your liabilities. A traditional mortgage debt is 75% of your total asset value. With traditional financing, it is unlikely that your creditor will ever become your "master" with that kind of debt:equity ratio unless there was an unprecedented market crash. Higher ratio mortgages are more risky for both the buyer and the lender because the real estate market could easily dip 10% and wipe out more than your equity, leaving you with debt unsupported by assets. This is something that has affected me personally recently. Because of a severe downturn in the housing market, the value of my home was appraised at 12% less this year compared to last year. The good news is that my property taxes will be lower. The bad news is that my equity in the house would just barely cover the cost of selling the house and moving to an apartment. Fortunately, I don't see any need to sell in the near future. But rather than forgetting about the risk, I am working to liquidate some other assets and pay down the mortgage as much as I can. It is much easier to find money in my budget when I am not in financial crisis. Unsecured debt of any kind bothers me. It always has. I will have a lot more peace when I am sure that my mortgage isn't in danger of turning upside down if I have to sell the house unexpectedly. scholarGal Scholargal, unsecured debt is indeed scary, and users need to be really disciplined, particularly with credit card debt. CC companies border on immoral business practices with their come-ons of low interest rates and liberal credit limits. When I look at my cards, it seems ludicrous, but I must have over $100K in aggregate limits, but it would be financial suicide to make use of it all except in very unique circumstances, but certainly never in normal circumstances. It's often the credit card banks who bury people so far into debt that they can't get out. They get them hooked on 2% interest and then in a few months the 18-24% interest kicks in and they are snowed under. Hopefully you are ok with with your house situation. Housing values always have a loose connection to new building costs. If your house is valued at a reasonable discount to the cost of building new, you should be ok. However, if the value of your home is higher than or close to the same thing new, you are at risk of further deterioration. If you are living in a growing area, that should also be supportive of your current values. Right now, everyone is spooked over the shaky mortgage companies as being the beginning of chaos in the financial system which then leads to, in short, recession and further downward pressure on home prices. Hang in there and good luck!
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Debt
Aug 9, 2007 22:06:40 GMT -5
Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 9, 2007 22:06:40 GMT -5
Brad, I know very few homeowners who don't have debt. I'm guessing that most of the people that you go to Church with (or bible study) have debt. The only people I know of who don't have debt are workers. You even have debt. What is your point? What's my point? You gotta be kidding me. God says to owe no man anything. I feel great about things I use of which I don't have debt. The debt I do have makes me feel bad. What's my point? Follow the Bible dude, it makes you feel good inside. Brad
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Debt
Aug 9, 2007 22:12:45 GMT -5
Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 9, 2007 22:12:45 GMT -5
Good post, Clearday. Here's a question. If I go enter into a mortgage contract for the purchase of a house am I going into debt? Or do I have offsetting assets and liabilities? Yes you are going into debt, but in this case, you will have assets in excess of your liabilities. A traditional mortgage debt is 75% of your total asset value. With traditional financing, it is unlikely that your creditor will ever become your "master" with that kind of debt:equity ratio unless there was an unprecedented market crash. Higher ratio mortgages are more risky for both the buyer and the lender because the real estate market could easily dip 10% and wipe out more than your equity, leaving you with debt unsupported by assets. A prudent borrower would put at least 25% down on the house (with personal funds or a forgivable loan from mom and dad), amortized in as short a period as possible and you would never have to lose much sleep over your debt as the house could be sold and all debt paid in a catastrophic event such as job loss. Another example of "good" debt would be to borrow to invest in something that will earn more than the interest payments. The borrower needs to really know what they are investing in though. Vehicle debt is more borderline as a vehicle asset declines rapidly in value. Prudent borrowing would feature a sizable downpayment of at least 25% and monthly payments that comfortably exceed the total of interest plus depreciation. I would be inclined to call debt for a principal residence to be "virtuous" debt. Mortgage repayment is often the only form of savings for retirement that many people engage in. Plus, over the long run, real estate always appreciates in value. So this forms the fundamental basis for a worry free retirement for many people. Hope this makes sense. That made no sense. You said that "unlikely creditor will become your master" Really? So Bible is wrong after all? Huh? No, you made no sense. I saw "unproven failed reasoning, blah blah, contradict God, blah blah, blah, ....hope this makes sense" It didn't Try using Bible verses Pro 22:7 The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender. Pro 22:8 He that soweth iniquity shall reap vanity: and the rod of his anger shall fail.
Isa 24:1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. Isa 24:2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him. Isa 24:3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word. THe Bible saves a lot of time and trouble from getting into bondage. I only wish I had taken the Bible more seriously earlier and ignored the ignorant people who justified their sin without example. Brad
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Debt
Aug 9, 2007 22:13:00 GMT -5
Post by _ on Aug 9, 2007 22:13:00 GMT -5
Brad, I know very few homeowners who don't have debt. I'm guessing that most of the people that you go to Church with (or bible study) have debt. The only people I know of who don't have debt are workers. You even have debt. What is your point? What's my point? You gotta be kidding me. God says to owe no man anything. I feel great about things I use of which I don't have debt. The debt I do have makes me feel bad. What's my point? Follow the Bible dude, it makes you feel good inside. Brad We have debt.... school loans.... mortgage.... I guess that makes my wife and I bad people... OH WELL....
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Deleted
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Debt
Aug 9, 2007 23:44:29 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2007 23:44:29 GMT -5
What's my point? You gotta be kidding me. God says to owe no man anything. I feel great about things I use of which I don't have debt. The debt I do have makes me feel bad. What's my point? Follow the Bible dude, it makes you feel good inside. Brad We have debt.... school loans.... mortgage.... I guess that makes my wife and I bad people... OH WELL.... Once Brad finishes paying off his debts, he will be the only adult human being in America not living in sin..... Oh and Brad, in order to maintain your exalted sinless status, please remember to: .....eat only at McDonald's and Dairy Queen where you pay for you food when you get it, otherwise you will be in debt to the restauranteur who presents his check at the end of your meal. ....pay for your trailer's power bill at the beginning of each month before you use the power or you will be in debt to the power company. .......pay your trailer's property taxes on Jan1 of each year, or you will be in debt to the city. ......pay your......well, if you don't get it by now.......
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Debt
Aug 11, 2007 10:30:13 GMT -5
Post by Henry on Aug 11, 2007 10:30:13 GMT -5
Being "InDebt" doesn't make one a "Bad" person, just a "Bondgaged" person.
No Debt gives a level of freedom on this earth that God intends us to have.
We all pay "Maintenance" costs which include: food clothing shelter taxes transportation . . . which should be paid with current ready funds not incurred debt.
Perhaps if our spiritual leaders used more natural situations relating to scripture we would have less bondgage (problems) in our lives.
Yes, Brad has hit a few "Nerves" on this and many of his posts. On this post he has also showed where he has "Sinned" in not keeping some "Indebtedness" up-to-date and requiring a special system to correct the problem.
"Moss on the roof is ugly and harmful to our dwelling" thanks Brad of the scriptural backing! ;D
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Debt
Aug 11, 2007 11:17:08 GMT -5
Post by las logged out on Aug 11, 2007 11:17:08 GMT -5
I think some businesses borrow money for operating...some businesses are a sure bet there going to make it like some restaurants or outfitting camps eh?
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Debt
Aug 11, 2007 14:44:50 GMT -5
Post by slow to see on Aug 11, 2007 14:44:50 GMT -5
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Matthew 5
I suppose then, taken literally, Jesus would allow us to ONLY borrow to "nonbelievers", IF borrowing money was sinful?? If I am up to date on my payments and fulfilling the contract obligations that another has entered in with me, I do not OWE him anything, until my next payment is due. "health and wealth" type preaching also promotes that if we follow a certain set of "laws" from the Bible that the Lord will "bless" us and we will be "healthy" and "wealthy". Certain verses taken alone would give that understanding, BUT it is not scripturally correct if taken into context of the whole Bible- just like the "debt" issue. In MANY ways , I am forever indebted to other people for all the help and encouragement they ahve been to me. I OWE them lots, and of course one "debt" we could NEVER have paid is forgiven us by the blood of the Lamb. How precious is THAT? No wonder Paul says to never acquit ourselves of the debt of LOVE. The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again: but the righteous sheweth mercy, and giveth. Psalms 37 :21 It seems that it is a righteous man who pays back what he has borrowed, and a wicked one does NOT. I know a man here, who made some bad choices financially when he was quite young and naive. He owed a large sum of money which he has struggled with and only a short time ago FIANLLY paid it all off, by the sweat of his brow type of work. He was advised by some that he was a fool for paying that debt as he could easily have declared bankruptcy and walked away. He felt that it just was not right for himself, as a Christian,to do that. I have great respect for his decision, and he is a man of honor in the community, by anyone who knows the story. MANY stories could be told of people who borrowed money or groceries or hardware or "whatever" in times of need and paid it back when they could. I suppose a lot of "borrowing" these days in this country is for "toys" which are not necassary for living which I could see as being wrong or at least very irresponsible. Oh oh, I just remembered I owe for my hydro for the last 12 or so days and some of that hydro was used to turn on a radio which is kind of a "toy" and unnecassary so I AM GUILTY. OH, and come to think of it, I am in debt to my IP provider fore very computer I am writing on as it comes due every thirty days and it is at least two weeks ago since I paid my last one. I OWE I OWE PLUS I think I already owe an apology to all o f you for making such a long post , without making much sense , but I am not sure I am even TRULY sorry , so I might be lying sorta and then I would have to apologize for saying sorry for owing you an apology and then ............................... LIFE IS SOOOOOO COMPLICATED......................! NOT
Alvin
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