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Post by countryroads on Aug 2, 2023 9:56:19 GMT -5
I have taken the AFT website at face value when it says there are allegations against 500+ alleged perpetrators. I have not seen any list remotely approaching that number though. The timeline thread on this site has something like 50 perpetrators. Is 500 a victim number perhaps? I am trying to get a sense of the scope of the problem.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2023 10:24:55 GMT -5
I have taken the AFT website at face value when it says there are allegations against 500+ alleged perpetrators. I have not seen any list remotely approaching that number though. The timeline thread on this site has something like 50 perpetrators. Is 500 a victim number perhaps? I am trying to get a sense of the scope of the problem. There will be no clarification on that for the moment as far as I can figure. It's been asked here before. I suspect the numbers floating around for the moment are false it could be higher or lower...
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Post by stargazer on Aug 2, 2023 10:53:00 GMT -5
Not sure the quantity is the issue. It’s that the issue exists at all and that the response until recently reflects a widespread ignorance of the effect and that of our response to it has on victims
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Post by themaninthemirror on Aug 2, 2023 12:21:01 GMT -5
I am unclear on the vagueness of the “500 perpetrators” because we have asked the information to understand the issue better.
Is the 500 including people like Leroy Sandford and his affair with a sister worker or Jeff Thayer and his affair. If it includes both those men does it also include the women?
Does it include only those with CSA claims? I know it includes people like Eldon Tenniswood who is dead for 20 years and others with historic allegations.
I am skeptical surrounding the reasons for saying it’s 500 but providing no context - it’s slightly alarmist, yet when I think of the UK and Ireland with maybe a hand full, there is a slew.
Would be great to have clarity
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 2, 2023 15:43:50 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Aug 2, 2023 16:03:42 GMT -5
I have to wonder why there has been no authorities investigating the top three overseers that allegedly knew about and took part in the moving of abusers and enabling them to continue abusing in a new area. Does anyone know if there are investigations into what they did?
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Post by SharonArnold on Aug 2, 2023 18:40:54 GMT -5
I have to wonder why there has been no authorities investigating the top three overseers that allegedly knew about and took part in the moving of abusers and enabling them to continue abusing in a new area. Does anyone know if there are investigations into what they did? This, to me, is the greater concern. The perpetrators could never have existed (for long), much less flourished, except for the coverup by the overseers and others in positions of authority.
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Post by Admin on Aug 2, 2023 20:26:39 GMT -5
Thanks for starting this thread, countryroads. It's an excellent and hugely important question "How pervasive is the problem?" And we need to have the answers, in order for the necessary repentance and cleansing of the whole F&W fellowship and ministry. And confidence that the F&W fellowship is as safe as it possibly can be for children and adults (women and men) from criminal CSA and SA. Frankly, with all that's currently known and not known, and fine words so far said, the necessary repentance and cleansing and changes in attitudes have barely begun. It was 13 years ago that my innocence regarding Worker acts of CSA was shattered, and along with Scott Ross and other righteous members and ex-members of the F&W, saw a Worker (with multiple victims) convicted of CSA. This was bad enough, and there's no degrees of badness when it comes to CSA. Every single act of CSA is totally depraved and abhorrent, and right at the far end of the scale of criminal wickedness and evil. But to be honest, in terms of the extent of the problem, Dean Bruer and the depths he went to in scheming and perverting his role in the F&W ministry to satisfy his base narcissism and to abuse his victims seemed beyond imaginable. Was his an extreme outlier, a one-off? And now (just yesterday for me) we discover the shocking case of the 'Date Rape Drug Former Brother Worker' (DRDFBW). For me, this is up there with Dean Bruer. Unimaginable. When we first heard whisper of Bruer, his use of Worker donations to fund his motel rooms for prostitutes and CSA/SA victims, my instinct was to reach out for confirmation before posting on TMB - was this a scam, fake news? I had the same instinctive response to DRDFBW yesterday, this couldn't really be true? The question has been posed, "was this the first time he drugged and raped someone?" Hardly likely, and what was his record of CSA and SA before he became the "Former" Brother Worker? The time is well passed for answers to so many questions. As well as those questions above in this thread, how many other 'unimaginable' cases like Bruer and the use of date-rape drugs on victims by those like DRDFBW associated with the F&W ministry are there, still maybe hidden from us? And what in real, genuine practical (dare I say it, Christian) terms is proposed to be done, for sake of good Friends and good Workers in the F&W fellowship?
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Post by Admin on Aug 2, 2023 20:38:40 GMT -5
This is re-posted here so it's on the open board. This is the shocking case of the Date Rape Drug Former Brother Worker (DRDFBW) that has shocked so many in ways that Dean Bruer also did. It seems DRDFBW is a true case, and raises so many additional questions about the F&W ministry response. Distressing Sexual Assault by Former Brother WorkerJul 31 [Redacted] distress ... please share with your field From: Craig Winquist Fri. Jul 28, 2023 at 10:18 PM To: AR/MO/OK Friends and Staff Some disturbing news has been brought to me lately and I feel the need to address it directly with all of you. Just a few weeks ago on Tuesday July 11, in Springfield [Redacted] and her advocate Jan Beasley told us about a horrible sexual assault that [Redacted] had suffered at the hand of a former brother worker. This man has a long history of sexual assault allegations, some of which he has admitted to. The detailed facts of this story are far more horrible than most of you have heard or could even imagine. We know without a doubt that she did suffer a horrible assault. This has been confirmed by the medical professionals who looked after her following the incident. The medical professionals also found that she had been given a date rape drug and have explained that this was used to render her unable to fight back or remember the details of the assault. [Redacted] did nothing wrong in any of this. She was not wrong to seek medical attention, and would have likely died if she hadn't done so. She was not wrong to tell her story earlier this month. We need to know about these types of things so we can make sure they do not happen again. And she certainly did nothing wrong in the way of inviting this attack upon herself. The man who attacked her had pre planned it, insomuch as he had an illegal date rape drug on hand to use to facilitate the attack. It has come to my attention that since the July 11th meeting, some have been speculating on the validity of her story and even have gone so far as to tell others that she is likely making it all up. While it is a natural thing to question when we hear things that are as horrible as this it isn't right to sow doubt, telling others that this is a false story. I understand that all of you don't have all of the details of this incident, and should not have them. But I can assure you that those who do understand all the details, have absolutely no doubt that this happened and that [Redacted] deserves our utmost respect, deepest compassion and most sincere prayers. Any rumors that [Redacted] made this story up or that she was somehow at fault or shouldn't have spoken up, needs to STOP NOW. We need to work together as Christlike people with compassion for one another to support any who have survived such tragedy and do everything we can to ensure that it doesn't happen again. Thank you. .... Craig Unbelievable, and this "former Brother Worker" was one time supposedly preaching the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ! Unsurprising that there's no Power in so many of the "gospel" sermons any more. The utter disgusting depravity, spiritual wickedness and physical evil. Nothing so far begins to address the repentance and humility necessary to restore the ministry of the F&W, not just for all the congregation but far more important, before holy God. Nehemiah 1:4-11 4 When I heard these things, I sat down and wept. For some days I mourned and fasted and prayed before the God of heaven. 5 Then I said:
“Lord, the God of heaven, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with those who love him and keep his commandments, 6 let your ear be attentive and your eyes open to hear the prayer your servant is praying before you day and night for your servants, the people of Israel. I confess the sins we Israelites, including myself and my father’s family, have committed against you. 7 We have acted very wickedly toward you. We have not obeyed the commands, decrees and laws you gave your servant Moses.
8 “Remember the instruction you gave your servant Moses, saying, ‘If you are unfaithful, I will scatter you among the nations, 9 but if you return to me and obey my commands, then even if your exiled people are at the farthest horizon, I will gather them from there and bring them to the place I have chosen as a dwelling for my Name.’
10 “They are your servants and your people, whom you redeemed by your great strength and your mighty hand. 11 Lord, let your ear be attentive to the prayer of this your servant and to the prayer of your servants who delight in revering your name. Give your servant success today by granting him favor in the presence of this man.”
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Post by themaninthemirror on Aug 3, 2023 3:01:41 GMT -5
Thanks for starting this thread, countryroads. It's an excellent and hugely important question "How pervasive is the problem?" And we need to have the answers, in order for the necessary repentance and cleansing of the whole F&W fellowship and ministry. And confidence that the F&W fellowship is as safe as it possibly can be for children and adults (women and men) from criminal CSA and SA. Frankly, with all that's currently known and not known, and fine words so far said, the necessary repentance and cleansing and changes in attitudes have barely begun. It was 13 years ago that my innocence regarding Worker acts of CSA was shattered, and along with Scott Ross and other righteous members and ex-members of the F&W, saw a Worker (with multiple victims) convicted of CSA. This was bad enough, and there's no degrees of badness when it comes to CSA. Every single act of CSA is totally depraved and abhorrent, and right at the far end of the scale of criminal wickedness and evil. But to be honest, in terms of the extent of the problem, Dean Bruer and the depths he went to in scheming and perverting his role in the F&W ministry to satisfy his base narcissism and to abuse his victims seemed beyond imaginable. Was his an extreme outlier, a one-off? And now (just yesterday for me) we discover the shocking case of the 'Date Rape Drug Former Brother Worker' (DRDFBW). For me, this is up there with Dean Bruer. Unimaginable. When we first heard whisper of Bruer, his use of Worker donations to fund his motel rooms for prostitutes and CSA/SA victims, my instinct was to reach out for confirmation before posting on TMB - was this a scam, fake news? I had the same instinctive response to DRDFBW yesterday, this couldn't really be true? The question has been posed, "was this the first time he drugged and raped someone?" Hardly likely, and what was his record of CSA and SA before he became the "Former" Brother Worker? The time is well passed for answers to so many questions. As well as those questions above in this thread, how many other 'unimaginable' cases like Bruer and the use of date-rape drugs on victims by those like DRDFBW associated with the F&W ministry are there, still maybe hidden from us? And what in real, genuine practical (dare I say it, Christian) terms is proposed to be done, for sake of good Friends and good Workers in the F&W fellowship? admin I wonder is there details on Dean Bruer - I feel like he is being treated as “old news” and we aren’t really comprehending the enormity of his deceipt. We have to realise that him and this former brother worker were key note speakers… very highly esteemed and we the people missed it. We didn’t know. I want to protect my family and learn from these evil men.
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Post by chuck on Aug 3, 2023 5:39:23 GMT -5
Thanks for starting this thread, countryroads. It's an excellent and hugely important question "How pervasive is the problem?" And we need to have the answers, in order for the necessary repentance and cleansing of the whole F&W fellowship and ministry. And confidence that the F&W fellowship is as safe as it possibly can be for children and adults (women and men) from criminal CSA and SA. Frankly, with all that's currently known and not known, and fine words so far said, the necessary repentance and cleansing and changes in attitudes have barely begun. It was 13 years ago that my innocence regarding Worker acts of CSA was shattered, and along with Scott Ross and other righteous members and ex-members of the F&W, saw a Worker (with multiple victims) convicted of CSA. This was bad enough, and there's no degrees of badness when it comes to CSA. Every single act of CSA is totally depraved and abhorrent, and right at the far end of the scale of criminal wickedness and evil. But to be honest, in terms of the extent of the problem, Dean Bruer and the depths he went to in scheming and perverting his role in the F&W ministry to satisfy his base narcissism and to abuse his victims seemed beyond imaginable. Was his an extreme outlier, a one-off? And now (just yesterday for me) we discover the shocking case of the 'Date Rape Drug Former Brother Worker' (DRDFBW). For me, this is up there with Dean Bruer. Unimaginable. When we first heard whisper of Bruer, his use of Worker donations to fund his motel rooms for prostitutes and CSA/SA victims, my instinct was to reach out for confirmation before posting on TMB - was this a scam, fake news? I had the same instinctive response to DRDFBW yesterday, this couldn't really be true? The question has been posed, "was this the first time he drugged and raped someone?" Hardly likely, and what was his record of CSA and SA before he became the "Former" Brother Worker? The time is well passed for answers to so many questions. As well as those questions above in this thread, how many other 'unimaginable' cases like Bruer and the use of date-rape drugs on victims by those like DRDFBW associated with the F&W ministry are there, still maybe hidden from us? And what in real, genuine practical (dare I say it, Christian) terms is proposed to be done, for sake of good Friends and good Workers in the F&W fellowship? admin I wonder is there details on Dean Bruer - I feel like he is being treated as “old news” and we aren’t really comprehending the enormity of his deceipt. We have to realise that him and this former brother worker were key note speakers… very highly esteemed and we the people missed it. We didn’t know. I want to protect my family and learn from these evil men. You are looking at it wrong, people missed it because they have been taught to only look at people based apon how they talk and act in relation to the system of ideas they have been sold. The philosophy that drives their utterances has already lead to tremendous heartache pain and death, why would you expect this to be any different, you just need to look at the results of the philosophy. Basically the ideology the workers have pushed over the years was demonstrated in full by the acts of Dean. Just not everyone has the conviction to carry it out to its fullest potential.
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Post by mountain on Aug 3, 2023 6:55:34 GMT -5
I have taken the AFT website at face value when it says there are allegations against 500+ alleged perpetrators. I have not seen any list remotely approaching that number though. The timeline thread on this site has something like 50 perpetrators. Is 500 a victim number perhaps? I am trying to get a sense of the scope of the problem. Whether it's 50, 500 0r 5,000, this whole matter is extremely serious. In my view, at least in USA/Canada and Australia/New Zealand, going by what is unfolding in these countries, the entirety of 'the Work' as a preaching medium should be instantly halted until proper examination has been made to root out all offenders. Monies held should be used to support victims. All workers against whom there are no allegations, should involve themselves in purging the kingdom of all abuses and where circumspect assist with the rehabilitation of the victims. Only when this is done should the Work be allowed to proceed. Preaching the Gospel is the most important vocation in this world. However, when it leaves a sewer like effluent in its wake, it has clearly become a tool of the devil and should be brought to a sudden halt until all these criminal, immoral and unrighteous acts have been exorcised.
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Post by Admin on Aug 3, 2023 7:30:43 GMT -5
admin I wonder is there details on Dean Bruer - I feel like he is being treated as “old news” and we aren’t really comprehending the enormity of his deceit. We have to realise that him and this former brother worker were key note speakers… very highly esteemed and we the people missed it. We didn’t know. I want to protect my family and learn from these evil men. Sorry themaninthemirror, I've heard nothing recently. Likely they are hoping it will all fade into the distant past and be largely forgotten very quickly. The social media news cycle is extremely fast-moving. Which of course means lessons won't have been learnt, and necessary changes won't be made. I've started a new thread to see if anybody has any recent info on Bruer.
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Post by countryroads on Aug 3, 2023 14:47:18 GMT -5
I keep waiting on this to hit the legacy news media. It is ripe for some type of long form journalism.
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Post by chuck on Aug 3, 2023 17:23:24 GMT -5
I keep waiting on this to hit the legacy news media. It is ripe for some type of long form journalism. They can't invest in it. If it was to do with the climate they'd be all over it as it involves making big money....
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Grief
New Member
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Post by Grief on Aug 3, 2023 17:44:20 GMT -5
I have taken the AFT website at face value when it says there are allegations against 500+ alleged perpetrators. I have not seen any list remotely approaching that number though. The timeline thread on this site has something like 50 perpetrators. Is 500 a victim number perhaps? I am trying to get a sense of the scope of the problem.
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Grief
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Post by Grief on Aug 3, 2023 17:47:40 GMT -5
Is the 500+ alleged perpetrators worldwide? Lots more victims may choose not to come forward!
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jane
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Post by jane on Aug 3, 2023 20:24:12 GMT -5
-As of July 14th, the abuser count is 550+ -This is a worldwide count with some historic cases (perps are dead). I understand the majority are in the USA. -These are credible allegations, i believe all are 2+ separate allegations. -Quantifying survivors is much more difficult. The count of survivors was shared when it passed 1,500, yet reports continue to roll in. -Unreported abuse is some multiple of these numbers
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Aug 3, 2023 21:59:48 GMT -5
-As of July 14th, the abuser count is 550+ -This is a worldwide count with some historic cases (perps are dead). I understand the majority are in the USA. -These are credible allegations, i believe all are 2+ separate allegations. -Quantifying survivors is much more difficult. The count of survivors was shared when it passed 1,500, yet reports continue to roll in. -Unreported abuse is some multiple of these numbers A couple of questions if you are able to answer them. Does this number include cases where the abuser has already been dealt with by the courts? Can we have a breakdown of how many in each country?
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Post by snow on Aug 4, 2023 15:46:06 GMT -5
Is the 500+ alleged perpetrators worldwide? Lots more victims may choose not to come forward! These are the open cases, but many more are in the initial stages from what I can see. www.advocatesforthetruth.com/open-cases
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Post by getreal on Aug 4, 2023 16:43:38 GMT -5
Most of these open cases are in canada even though most of the reported abusers are in the usa. The Canadian justice system seems to be more active in addressing this issue.
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Post by snow on Aug 4, 2023 17:10:50 GMT -5
Most of these open cases are in canada even though most of the reported abusers are in the usa. The Canadian justice system seems to be more active in addressing this issue. Yes. Maybe because we don't have a statute of limitations on rape in Canada?
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Post by christiansburg on Aug 4, 2023 17:12:57 GMT -5
I have taken the AFT website at face value when it says there are allegations against 500+ alleged perpetrators. I have not seen any list remotely approaching that number though. The timeline thread on this site has something like 50 perpetrators. Is 500 a victim number perhaps? I am trying to get a sense of the scope of the problem. I would rather think that the 500 is not perpetrators but 500 events.
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Post by Admin on Aug 4, 2023 18:06:02 GMT -5
Neither Ray nor Barry nor any other overseer have ever promised to remove sexually immoral people from the ministry. Since sexual abuse is always explained away as a consensual relationship or a case of the worker being a victim of seduction or as an attempt to “destroy” the worker in an act of vengeance (usually for rejecting advances of the seducer), abusers are safe within the ministry.
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Post by menatwork on Aug 4, 2023 20:04:21 GMT -5
What is becoming increasingly clear is that the church is lurching from crisis to crisis with the events in USA/Canada/Australia being exposed. I am sure that this is not limited to these countries and it is frightening what is likely occurring in Asia/Sth America and other places.
The level of abuse is not limited to CSA, but other forms of sexual abuse are being exposed every day, along with the supposedly lesser issue of consensual sexual relationships between workers and members. The number of Overseers and workers being found out and either resigning or being kicked out is alarming
I am not sure where this leaves the future of the church in which many people have placed their faith. Many people see the church as the only right way to salvation and have had complete faith and trust in the workers and the structure of the group instead of trusting in Jesus for their salvation. Or they have a misplaced view of salvation in that they have to follow Jesus and live a good life in order to be saved.
My view is that until the church gets back to a proper foundation based on scripture then it will ultimately fail as a Holy God will run out of patience as He has throughout the Bible when people continually sin without repentance.
The workers need to stop hiding behind the unscriptural facade of a 2x2, homeless celibate ministry and start preaching the true gospel to a desperate people crying out for change.
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Post by fixit on Aug 4, 2023 21:39:27 GMT -5
I have taken the AFT website at face value when it says there are allegations against 500+ alleged perpetrators. I have not seen any list remotely approaching that number though. The timeline thread on this site has something like 50 perpetrators. Is 500 a victim number perhaps? I am trying to get a sense of the scope of the problem. I would rather think that the 500 is not perpetrators but 500 events. Do you think jane is wrong? She says the count of survivors was shared when it passed 1,500. -As of July 14th, the abuser count is 550+ -This is a worldwide count with some historic cases (perps are dead). I understand the majority are in the USA. -These are credible allegations, i believe all are 2+ separate allegations. -Quantifying survivors is much more difficult. The count of survivors was shared when it passed 1,500, yet reports continue to roll in. -Unreported abuse is some multiple of these numbers
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Post by SharonArnold on Aug 4, 2023 21:42:32 GMT -5
I have taken the AFT website at face value when it says there are allegations against 500+ alleged perpetrators. I have not seen any list remotely approaching that number though. The timeline thread on this site has something like 50 perpetrators. Is 500 a victim number perhaps? I am trying to get a sense of the scope of the problem. I would rather think that the 500 is not perpetrators but 500 events. We'd all rather think that. But, unfortunately, I don't think that is the case.
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Post by fixit on Aug 4, 2023 21:52:09 GMT -5
My view is that until the church gets back to a proper foundation based on scripture then it will ultimately fail as a Holy God will run out of patience as He has throughout the Bible when people continually sin without repentance. The scripture below is recorded as part of the sermon on the mount Matthew chapters 5-7. If we hear (with ears to hear) Jesus words in Matthew chapters 5-7 and act on them we'll be building on the rock and not the sand. And we won't be sexually abusing children, committing adultery, and heaping emotional and spiritual abuse on anyone.
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