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Post by Dan on Aug 4, 2023 22:48:23 GMT -5
-As of July 14th, the abuser count is 550+ -This is a worldwide count with some historic cases (perps are dead). I understand the majority are in the USA. -These are credible allegations, i believe all are 2+ separate allegations. -Quantifying survivors is much more difficult. The count of survivors was shared when it passed 1,500, yet reports continue to roll in. -Unreported abuse is some multiple of these numbers
Holy Moses... We're gonna need a bigger calculator! It might be easier to count how many people haven't been having illicit sex? Celibate ministry? I guess that's optional and not mandatory! Its amazing how long they've been able to keep this massive problem a secret.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Aug 4, 2023 22:50:41 GMT -5
-As of July 14th, the abuser count is 550+ -This is a worldwide count with some historic cases (perps are dead). I understand the majority are in the USA. -These are credible allegations, i believe all are 2+ separate allegations. -Quantifying survivors is much more difficult. The count of survivors was shared when it passed 1,500, yet reports continue to roll in. -Unreported abuse is some multiple of these numbers
Holy Moses... We're gonna need a bigger calculator! It might be easier to count how many people haven't been having illicit sex? Celibate ministry? I guess that's optional and not mandatory! Its amazing how long they've been able to keep this massive problem a secret.
I am intrigued that they turned some men down when they offered for the work. Did they not want to share or did they not want the competition? Sharing is caring. Revelations. 23.
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Post by Dan on Aug 4, 2023 23:20:52 GMT -5
I am intrigued that they turned some men down when they offered for the work. Did they not want to share or did they not want the competition? Sharing is caring. Revelations. 23.
I'm intrigued (stunned) that some of those who were caught fooling around or guilty of sexual abuse themselves, had the gall to simultaneously forbid divorcees from taking part in mtgs.
"Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy" (Luke 12:1).
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Aug 4, 2023 23:32:15 GMT -5
I am intrigued that they turned some men down when they offered for the work. Did they not want to share or did they not want the competition? Sharing is caring. Revelations. 23.
I'm intrigued (stunned) that some of those who were caught fooling around or guilty of sexual abuse themselves, had the gall to simultaneously forbid divorcees from taking part in mtgs.
"Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy" (Luke 12:1).
You will get used to the false morality which comes from imagining there is a god.
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Post by menatwork on Aug 4, 2023 23:42:40 GMT -5
I'm intrigued (stunned) that some of those who were caught fooling around or guilty of sexual abuse themselves, had the gall to simultaneously forbid divorcees from taking part in mtgs.
"Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy" (Luke 12:1).
You will get used to the false morality which comes from imagining there is a god. The false morality comes from not understanding who God is and placing yourself above him It’s about controlling the members and not controlling yourself
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Post by menatwork on Aug 4, 2023 23:46:57 GMT -5
My view is that until the church gets back to a proper foundation based on scripture then it will ultimately fail as a Holy God will run out of patience as He has throughout the Bible when people continually sin without repentance. The scripture below is recorded as part of the sermon on the mount Matthew chapters 5-7. If we hear (with ears to hear) Jesus words in Matthew chapters 5-7 and act on them we'll be building on the rock and not the sand. And we won't be sexually abusing children, committing adultery, and heaping emotional and spiritual abuse on anyone. “Since you have been raised to new life with Christ, set your sights on the realities of heaven, where Christ sits in the place of honor at God’s right hand. Think about the things of heaven, not the things of earth. For you died to this life, and your real life is hidden with Christ in God. And when Christ, who is your life, is revealed to the whole world, you will share in all his glory. So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Don’t be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Because of these sins, the anger of God is coming.” Colossians 3:1-6 NLT
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Post by Dan on Aug 4, 2023 23:54:52 GMT -5
I'm intrigued (stunned) that some of those who were caught fooling around or guilty of sexual abuse themselves, had the gall to simultaneously forbid divorcees from taking part in mtgs.
"Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy" (Luke 12:1).
You will get used to the false morality which comes from imagining there is a god.
Nothing false about morality. Wrong is wrong and right is right with God or no gods. The current scandal emanated from those who took a walk on the dark side and was aided by a few who enabled the abuse. An all around perverse and sad scenario that's taken a toll on many. But despite the wrong turn, the ship is not grounded and hopefully the captain (Christ)) can turn the ship around.
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Post by fixit on Aug 5, 2023 0:21:39 GMT -5
-As of July 14th, the abuser count is 550+ -This is a worldwide count with some historic cases (perps are dead). I understand the majority are in the USA. -These are credible allegations, i believe all are 2+ separate allegations. -Quantifying survivors is much more difficult. The count of survivors was shared when it passed 1,500, yet reports continue to roll in. -Unreported abuse is some multiple of these numbers Holy Moses... We're gonna need a bigger calculator! It might be easier to count how many people haven't been having illicit sex? Celibate ministry? I guess that's optional and not mandatory! Its amazing how long they've been able to keep this massive problem a secret. A young monk arrives at the monastery. He is assigned to helping the other monks in copying the old canons and laws of the church by hand. He notices, however, that all of the monks are copying from copies, not from the original manuscript. So, the new monk goes to the head abbot to question this, pointing out that if someone made even a small error in the first copy, it would never be picked up. In fact, that error would be continued in all of the subsequent copies. The head monk says, "We have been copying from the copies for centuries, but you make a good point, my son." So, he goes down into the dark caves underneath the monastery where the original manuscripts are held as archives in a locked vault that hasn't been opened for hundreds of years. Hours go by and nobody sees the old abbot. So, the young monk gets worried and goes down to look for him. He sees him banging his head against the wall and wailing, "We missed the "R", we missed the "R". His forehead is all bloody and bruised and he is crying uncontrollably. The young monk asks the old abbot, "What's wrong, father?" With a choking voice, the old abbot replies, "The word was CELEBRATE!"
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Post by snow on Aug 5, 2023 12:43:47 GMT -5
It's become known that Sheri was invited to a couple of meetings in Texas recently where she spoke and answered questions by the workers. Then there was a meeting that she tried to attend and they literally locked the door and wouldn't let her in. She asked the workers for 5 minutes, and they said no. They also said that she had a bad spirit. So it didn't take long for some of the workers to retract their feel good letters that said we will cooperate with Advocates for Truth. So where is this going from here I wonder. I wonder if this is going to be what the rest of them start to do or if this was just a one time experience. The friends wanted her there to ask questions of. Those particular workers didn't want her there to answer them
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 5, 2023 13:13:57 GMT -5
admin I wonder is there details on Dean Bruer - I feel like he is being treated as “old news” and we aren’t really comprehending the enormity of his deceipt. We have to realise that him and this former brother worker were key note speakers… very highly esteemed and we the people missed it. We didn’t know. I want to protect my family and learn from these evil men. Yes, the MT overseer sent this letter out from the therapist who's helping Dean's victims. She covers why Dean's behavior was missed, the coverup allegation, victim's rights, and more. It's a very professional letter. Mountain View Therapy Logo July 27, 2023 To Whom It May Concern: My name is April Ildvad, MA, LCPC, LPCC. I am a trauma-informed therapist who has treated victims of sexual assault. I am trained in EMDR (eye movement desensitization and reprocessing) and prolonged exposure. I have been asked to address the concerns about Dean's victims and the process of supporting and helping the victims. First, I want to address a concerning allegation that the victims were complicit in their abuse and/or the abuse was consensual. Sexual assault is never consensual. Dean was a sexual predator who groomed, manipulated and coerced victims into believing if they made any reports he was assaulting them, no one would believe them and the abuse was their fault. This is common behavior for a predator. In no way, no matter how long the abuse was going on, were the victims at fault. Any shaming or victim blaming is inappropriate and harmful. Secondary, Dean's victims have reported being "punished" and restrained in various ways which have led them to feel their lives were in danger had they refused his abuse or tried to escape from him. Again, any statements that put blame for his action onto the victims can and does create secondary trauma and they are not at fault for what happened to them. Another issue that has happened with victims of sexual trauma is repression of the memories of the assaults. The blocking of the memories or the trauma experience happens when the trauma is too difficult for a person to remember and their brain, to protect them, suppresses the memory. There have been many reported cases of repressed memories and this in no way is the victim's fault or their responsibility. Again, this is not intentional on the victims' part and their inability to remember the abuse or unawareness of the abuse does not indicate they were not abused or they are fabricating their story. The victims often remember pieces of the trauma after being in therapy for a significant amount of time and develop a trusting relationship with their therapist. Trust, especially with sexual assault victims, does not happen quickly. Building a trusting relationship takes time and a victim being told to trust someone causes mistrust due to the abuse and manipulation Dean has done. There have been claims that the system has covered up the abuse or that someone would have known abuse was happening. Predators have, historically, blended into their environments exceptionally well and Dean is not an exception. He knew how to use his role as a leader to groom, manipulate and isolate his victims and to hide his activities from others. These behaviors are developed over time and he would have continued to victimize women had he not died. Once his predatory behaviors were known, the system took appropriate actions to support Dean's victims and made the necessary reports to authorities. There have been claims that there needs to be transparency about who the victims are and Page 2 Mountain View Therapy Logo what is being done to provide support to the victims. These requests are highly inappropriate and the victims have every right to their privacy and the right to share or not share their experiences. Transparency does not mean that anyone has the right to demand to know who victims are or what sexual trauma any of the victims endured. Victims have the right to set and keep boundaries on what they will share and who they will share it with. Seeking information may also lead other victims to not feel safe coming forward and get the help they need. Approaching a person who may or may not be a victim is inappropriate and can cause secondary trauma by being exposed as a victim when they are not ready or willing to share their experience. The victims have suffered horrific abuse and offering help, even with the best intentions, can cause more damage. Insisting on offering help after the help has been declined is harmful and can cause secondary trauma. Trauma-informed care is being offered to those who are able to receive help, and for those who are not ready for their experiences to be shared, they have been informed of the care that is available to them. Sincerely, April C. lidvad, MA, LOC, LPCC, C IS Mountain View Therapy 406-624-9031
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Post by verna on Aug 5, 2023 18:10:42 GMT -5
admin I wonder is there details on Dean Bruer - I feel like he is being treated as “old news” and we aren’t really comprehending the enormity of his deceipt. We have to realise that him and this former brother worker were key note speakers… very highly esteemed and we the people missed it. We didn’t know. I want to protect my family and learn from these evil men. Yes, the MT overseer sent this letter out from the therapist who's helping Dean's victims. She covers why Dean's behavior was missed, the coverup allegation, victim's rights, and more. It's a very professional letter. Mountain View Therapy Logo July 27, 2023 To Whom It May Concern: My name is April Ildvad, MA, LCPC, LPCC. I am a trauma-informed therapist who has treated victims of sexual assault. I am trained in EMDR (eye movement desensitization and reprocessing) and prolonged exposure. I have been asked to address the concerns about Dean's victims and the process of supporting and helping the victims. First, I want to address a concerning allegation that the victims were complicit in their abuse and/or the abuse was consensual. Sexual assault is never consensual. Dean was a sexual predator who groomed, manipulated and coerced victims into believing if they made any reports he was assaulting them, no one would believe them and the abuse was their fault. This is common behavior for a predator. In no way, no matter how long the abuse was going on, were the victims at fault. Any shaming or victim blaming is inappropriate and harmful. Secondary, Dean's victims have reported being "punished" and restrained in various ways which have led them to feel their lives were in danger had they refused his abuse or tried to escape from him. Again, any statements that put blame for his action onto the victims can and does create secondary trauma and they are not at fault for what happened to them. Another issue that has happened with victims of sexual trauma is repression of the memories of the assaults. The blocking of the memories or the trauma experience happens when the trauma is too difficult for a person to remember and their brain, to protect them, suppresses the memory. There have been many reported cases of repressed memories and this in no way is the victim's fault or their responsibility. Again, this is not intentional on the victims' part and their inability to remember the abuse or unawareness of the abuse does not indicate they were not abused or they are fabricating their story. The victims often remember pieces of the trauma after being in therapy for a significant amount of time and develop a trusting relationship with their therapist. Trust, especially with sexual assault victims, does not happen quickly. Building a trusting relationship takes time and a victim being told to trust someone causes mistrust due to the abuse and manipulation Dean has done. There have been claims that the system has covered up the abuse or that someone would have known abuse was happening. Predators have, historically, blended into their environments exceptionally well and Dean is not an exception. He knew how to use his role as a leader to groom, manipulate and isolate his victims and to hide his activities from others. These behaviors are developed over time and he would have continued to victimize women had he not died. Once his predatory behaviors were known, the system took appropriate actions to support Dean's victims and made the necessary reports to authorities. There have been claims that there needs to be transparency about who the victims are and Page 2 Mountain View Therapy Logo what is being done to provide support to the victims. These requests are highly inappropriate and the victims have every right to their privacy and the right to share or not share their experiences. Transparency does not mean that anyone has the right to demand to know who victims are or what sexual trauma any of the victims endured. Victims have the right to set and keep boundaries on what they will share and who they will share it with. Seeking information may also lead other victims to not feel safe coming forward and get the help they need. Approaching a person who may or may not be a victim is inappropriate and can cause secondary trauma by being exposed as a victim when they are not ready or willing to share their experience. The victims have suffered horrific abuse and offering help, even with the best intentions, can cause more damage. Insisting on offering help after the help has been declined is harmful and can cause secondary trauma. Trauma-informed care is being offered to those who are able to receive help, and for those who are not ready for their experiences to be shared, they have been informed of the care that is available to them. Sincerely, April C. lidvad, MA, LOC, LPCC, C IS Mountain View Therapy 406-624-9031 A professing therapist it seems. Am I the only one who sees a conflict of interest here?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 5, 2023 18:15:01 GMT -5
Yes, the MT overseer sent this letter out from the therapist who's helping Dean's victims. She covers why Dean's behavior was missed, the coverup allegation, victim's rights, and more. It's a very professional letter. A professing therapist it seems. Am I the only one who sees a conflict of interest here? www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/april-ildvad-bozeman-mt/864464
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jane
Junior Member
Posts: 89
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Post by jane on Aug 5, 2023 18:56:31 GMT -5
-As of July 14th, the abuser count is 550+ -This is a worldwide count with some historic cases (perps are dead). I understand the majority are in the USA. -These are credible allegations, i believe all are 2+ separate allegations. -Quantifying survivors is much more difficult. The count of survivors was shared when it passed 1,500, yet reports continue to roll in. -Unreported abuse is some multiple of these numbers A couple of questions if you are able to answer them. Does this number include cases where the abuser has already been dealt with by the courts? Can we have a breakdown of how many in each country? 1. yes. Dealt with the courts and out of jail does not mean they are no longer a pedophile. So they are still a threat and a concern. 2. I don't have that info.
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jane
Junior Member
Posts: 89
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Post by jane on Aug 5, 2023 18:58:08 GMT -5
I have taken the AFT website at face value when it says there are allegations against 500+ alleged perpetrators. I have not seen any list remotely approaching that number though. The timeline thread on this site has something like 50 perpetrators. Is 500 a victim number perhaps? I am trying to get a sense of the scope of the problem. I would rather think that the 500 is not perpetrators but 500 events. I would like to think that also. However, that is not factual. It is 550+ perpetrators.
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Post by christiansburg on Aug 5, 2023 21:45:11 GMT -5
I would rather think that the 500 is not perpetrators but 500 events. I would like to think that also. However, that is not factual. It is 550+ perpetrators. This is the thing that blows us out of the water. I mentioned to someone last week after meeting that I thought it would take 70 years to get over this. The years of captivity , two generations. We will have a totally changed ministry.
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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2023 13:22:48 GMT -5
I think that the call for a complete change in how the church is managed like transparency is a call for a whole different church. The church has always operated on not disclosing how much money it has. All decisions are done by the workers and for the most part are not questioned and even if they are questioned, they are usually followed whether people agreed or not. Some described it as a sort of mystery behind how it has been managed. So if you start changing that, everything being revealed by the workers, not giving the workers the absolute power they have had, you end up with a whole different church.
I wonder if it would make more sense for those who want those things to just leave and find a church that better suits those needs. Or, stay and acknowledge that the church is completely changed except maybe for the meetings in the homes being a retained way of fellowshipping.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 9, 2023 19:40:45 GMT -5
Yes, the MT overseer sent this letter out from the therapist who's helping Dean's victims. She covers why Dean's behavior was missed, the coverup allegation, victim's rights, and more. It's a very professional letter. A professing therapist it seems. Am I the only one who sees a conflict of interest here? It covers the "need to know" requests, but it doesn't answer the question, really. I involved myself in the Ruban Mata case -- which I was told was reportedly handled by some professing therapist. I did NOT solve the situation. Furthermore, I was told what the therapist had advised as a corrective measure, and that was hilarious in it's ridiculousness. Something I've had a problem with for decades: when the workers take care of matters, they need to tell people precisely what they have done to take care of things. I my childhood understanding of things, I found it helpful to know the consequences of certain actions so I could weigh the risk of being caught. A justice system that operates out of the public eye cannot be trusted to behave equitably and fairly.
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 651
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Post by peggysullivan on Aug 11, 2023 15:25:41 GMT -5
It’s quite pervasive. Way too pervasive!
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