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Post by fixit on Aug 21, 2023 3:28:48 GMT -5
'How can we encourage' such to: "Share the post with the folk in the Sunday morning meeting in your home. 🤭 If you get a day of convention, then in your testimony there?😮 Or if you are really a man of your convictions when you 'have a coffee' with Alan or Wayne or the two sisters there! (I'd like to be a 'fly on the wall'!) Perhaps you'd not be so keen on the surprised looks on the faces of 'system minded sanctimonious friends' and a 'corrupt eldership'? (as you fondly refer to them as). You might not get the 'likes' you get in the safe TMB echo chamber? This comes across as intimidating and controlling. Was it meant to be? I've always said there are a lot of good people in the fellowship, many who I have a lot of respect for. If you despise me for talking about plugging the leaks while you're busy rearranging the deck chairs, then so be it.
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Post by chuck on Aug 21, 2023 3:41:45 GMT -5
pragmatic, mountain and fixit, you are appreciated and liked in this TMB echo chamber!
How do you reckon some of your 'pearlers' (there are hundreds/thousands of them) like:
"Workers should try preaching Jesus only, instead of their man made kingdom. Then their lives wouldn't be wasted. How can we encourage workers to do that, without pulling the rug out from under them?"
would go down in Sunday morning meeting, convention or over a cup of coffee with the workers. Not as well as in the Walter Mitty TMB existence. I'd put my money on that!
Prags appreciating the 'christlikeness' of Ross; as Chuck has of bta. Prags, are you learning as much under his anglican evangelical tutelage as you did from the old Naki Anglican bishop chap you have extolled previously! You'll need to watch you don't get too (anglican) 'system minded or sanctimonious' in your enthusiasm for them!
Reminder: My words that you've added to my dossier are part of a discussion and are disingenuous and misleading when quoted out of context. Do you feel your power as a worker is under threat by people who are not subservient? It woukd be quite uncomfortable after being pandered too.....
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Post by snow on Aug 21, 2023 12:43:09 GMT -5
I was talking to someone in the US over the weekend, who is reasonably "close to the action". He estimated around 2000 have either stopped attending or exited so far, at best guess, since the Dean Bruer debacle. Does anyone else know if this is about right, or are they "bush telegraph" figures? Going by convention numbers there have certainly been a lot not attending. Don't know if that means they've walked away or were scared to attend. In Canada I don't think the numbers are the same as in the US. Conventions, at least in Western Canada, seem to have been fairly well attended. I know Alberta conventions managed to get over the 1000 mark while US conventions aren't doing as well.
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Post by snow on Aug 21, 2023 12:45:00 GMT -5
'How can we encourage' such to: "Share the post with the folk in the Sunday morning meeting in your home. 🤭 If you get a day of convention, then in your testimony there?😮 Or if you are really a man of your convictions when you 'have a coffee' with Alan or Wayne or the two sisters there! (I'd like to be a 'fly on the wall'!) Perhaps you'd not be so keen on the surprised looks on the faces of 'system minded sanctimonious friends' and a 'corrupt eldership'? (as you fondly refer to them as). You might not get the 'likes' you get in the safe TMB echo chamber? This comes across as intimidating and controlling. Was it meant to be? I've always said there are a lot of good people in the fellowship, many who I have a lot of respect for. If you despise me for talking about plugging the leaks while you're busy rearranging the deck chairs, then so be it. Obsessions are rarely logical.
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Post by openingact34 on Aug 21, 2023 17:42:51 GMT -5
I was talking to someone in the US over the weekend, who is reasonably "close to the action". He estimated around 2000 have either stopped attending or exited so far, at best guess, since the Dean Bruer debacle. Does anyone else know if this is about right, or are they "bush telegraph" figures? I think they had eight or nine hundred people sign the latest petition, and probably at least half of those were long-term exes. I might believe that Canada and the US together lost 2000 total since Covid, but not just over the abuse scandal. If you listen to what a lot of the vocal people online are saying, they left or significantly deconstructed and lost faith when Covid hit and the programming was interrupted. The Podcasts thread has a great example of this with Kari and Kyle. Steven Hassan and other cult deprogrammers often talk about this phenomenon as well. When the cult member ends up in the hospital, or is otherwise separated from the constant brainwashing and reinforcement, they often start to think for themselves again. Your true non-cult mind and identity finally has time to emerge without gospel meeting 5 nights a week, the workers in your home, conventions, special meetings, preps, potlucks, bible studies, and so on. The workers have had a hard time getting people back into line and re-brainwashed. So now when they see a CSA case, they are appalled rather than just muttering a thought-stopping mantra and leaving it in Jesus' hands.
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Post by godsgrace on Aug 21, 2023 20:05:37 GMT -5
I was talking to someone in the US over the weekend, who is reasonably "close to the action". He estimated around 2000 have either stopped attending or exited so far, at best guess, since the Dean Bruer debacle. Does anyone else know if this is about right, or are they "bush telegraph" figures? Could be the 'jungle drums' but it sounds about right... maybe more. Definitely a whole lot who didn't attend their usual conventions
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Post by fixit on Aug 21, 2023 23:07:35 GMT -5
“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results”
I appreciate Greg Swenson having conversations with overseers, workers, elders, friends and anyone...
For too long, workers have filled the role of elders, dumbing down the friends and encouraging them to be subservient sycophants while the workers micromanage the church.
Evangelism virtually ceased long ago and workers seem to see their role as preaching to, and hanging out with, the fellowship's greyheads.
It's resulted in workers with insufficient accountability while many needs in the church remain unmet. Also, legalism and system-mindedness are more highly esteemed than spiritual-mindedness and the loving, caring empathetic group of individuals that we are called out to BE.
Leaving burnt-out workers wondering what on earth went wrong.
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Post by internationalstudies on Aug 22, 2023 14:02:38 GMT -5
“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results” Does this definition also apply to those who post prolifically on TMB? 17000+ posts in the present/current TMB incarnation. The same repertoire over and over and over again!
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Post by fixit on Aug 22, 2023 14:40:50 GMT -5
“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results” Does this definition also apply to those who post prolifically on TMB? 17000+ posts in a present TMB incarnation. Any different result than this self satisfying 'venting' part of their daily life. Interestingly those who have spoken out against unrighteousness and in support of victims of that unrighteousness have been getting results even if it has been painfully slow and over many years. Noels was one of several iterations of a NZ worker on TMB who deleted his posts so no one can throw it back at him how many posts he has made over the years. The Noels from April 2012 must have been prophesying about a process that would begin in 2023 but was in fact only wishful thinking in 2012... Noels says "However with assurance I can say that each and every instance of CSA allegation made to the ministry in New Zealand is fully looked into and dealt with according to standards that are right in the sight of God and man and will stand open audit..."
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Post by fixit on Aug 22, 2023 14:44:55 GMT -5
It's interesting to look back at the situation 11 years ago... Steffan, I know you are in contact with Noels and that's good. However, I know that case you raised, fairly intimately, and as I see it, the only thing which you wrote which was incorrect, was that the elder was still in his elder role. No, the elder was stepped down, but meeting is still in his home. And the issue is NOT sorted out. Noels, please say it as it is, and don't try and slide things around to fit the pretty image of all being sorted out. I applaud you for your loyalty, but I ask that you either speak the truth on a matter, or don't speak at all. I know that most here, both within the fellowship and those who have left, really desperately need a worker who listens, and see's both sides and applies compassionate wisdom, to all situations. There is a huge gap waiting for this worker to step into the role. Many around the world are crying out to be heard... not to speak out and be berated and corrected in a very tough schoolmaster manner. Please see the need, Noels. You are in a very special position to help. You are doing so many proactive things in your ministry, which are helpful and I see God is blessing these things for you. The whole world needs workers who will listen with love and compassion, and I pray if it cannot be you, then God will remove you from this board, and raise someone up to will do this for Him, His Kingdom and all the hurting people world wide. The NZ overseer is manipulating things all he can to keep the status quo of New Zealand's 'green, clean image'. Sadly, as the pressure of politics come more heavily upon him, he is succumbing to the "Pilate spirit". Time to do some spring cleaning. Done in honesty, mercy and love, and no condemnation from onlookers, this would be the most healthy alternative. The NZ house of the fellowship needs all it's rugs shaken and cleaned, so there are no secrets and we again thrive in total openness, honesty and truth. We have Scott and Clearday who are both compassionate and doing a very good service in this area, but there is still a gap waiting to be filled which only a worker can fill. These three would make a very good team and I propose many situations raised on this board,would not escalate into the grief and sorrow they have, if we had an honest, caring team. My prayers are for this vacancy to be filled. May it be you, Noels.
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Post by snow on Aug 22, 2023 17:04:57 GMT -5
11 years ago being told all was well, everything is under control and here we are. Finding out the complete opposite. Unless of course being under control meant that the friends were being kept in the dark and the workers could carry on, business as usual
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Post by Pragmatic on Aug 22, 2023 18:09:34 GMT -5
11 years ago being told all was well, everything is under control and here we are. Finding out the complete opposite. Unless of course being under control meant that the friends were being kept in the dark and the workers could carry on, business as usual Exactly...and how many victims and broken lives later?
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Post by openingact34 on Aug 22, 2023 20:30:45 GMT -5
Does this definition also apply to those who post prolifically on TMB? 17000+ posts in a present TMB incarnation. Any different result than this self satisfying 'venting' part of their daily life. Interestingly those who have spoken out against unrighteousness and in support of victims of that unrighteousness have been getting results even if it has been painfully slow and over many years. Noels was one of several iterations of a NZ worker on TMB who deleted his posts so no one can throw it back at him how many posts he has made over the years. The Noels from April 2012 must have been prophesying about a process that would begin in 2023 but was in fact only wishful thinking in 2012... Noels says "However with assurance I can say that each and every instance of CSA allegation made to the ministry in New Zealand is fully looked into and dealt with according to standards that are right in the sight of God and man and will stand open audit..." Well, you might want to delete your posts also if you had acted as Leslie White's online defense attorney. professing.proboards.com/thread/22989/response-leslies-email
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Post by fixit on Aug 22, 2023 20:52:16 GMT -5
Interestingly those who have spoken out against unrighteousness and in support of victims of that unrighteousness have been getting results even if it has been painfully slow and over many years. Noels was one of several iterations of a NZ worker on TMB who deleted his posts so no one can throw it back at him how many posts he has made over the years. The Noels from April 2012 must have been prophesying about a process that would begin in 2023 but was in fact only wishful thinking in 2012... Well, you might want to delete your posts also if you had acted as Leslie White's online defense attorney. professing.proboards.com/thread/22989/response-leslies-emailAh....that wasn't Noels but it was review005, another iteration of our resident TMB worker who deletes his contributions so no one can accuse him of too many posts.
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jwatt
Junior Member
Posts: 191
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Post by jwatt on Aug 22, 2023 21:00:43 GMT -5
Ah....that wasn't Noels but it was review005, another iteration of our resident TMB worker who deletes his contributions so no one can accuse him of too many posts. Years of coverups under all his different poster names. Wonder why he tried to delete them? So years later still victims lives being screwed up. Hopefully they receive help through The Brave Truth Australia team!
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Post by internationalstudies on Aug 22, 2023 23:21:29 GMT -5
“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results”
fixit you are obfuscating again, avoiding an uncomfortable reality! “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results”
Your ability to see past 'the beam in your own eye' is remarkable! Different TMB incarnations, how many? (acceptable for some, but not for others seems to be the TMB 'rule of thumb'? )
The same repertoire over and over and 25000? 30,000 ? more? posts over? Apparently it's not insanity when you do it? 😮
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Post by Persona non grata on Aug 22, 2023 23:58:02 GMT -5
In Luke 18: 1-8, Jesus shared a parable about a persistent widow and an unjust judge.
“Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. He said: ’In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, “Grant me justice against my adversary.”
For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, “Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!”
And the Lord said, ‘Listen to what the unjust judge says. And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?’”
TMB readers can draw their own conclusions as to who is the persistent widow and who is the unjust judge in this parable.
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Post by fixit on Aug 23, 2023 1:47:32 GMT -5
“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results”
fixit you are obfuscating again, avoiding an uncomfortable reality! “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results”
Your ability to see past 'the beam in your own eye' is remarkable! Different TMB incarnations, how many? (acceptable for some, but not for others seems to be the TMB 'rule of thumb'? )
The same repertoire over and over and 25000? 30,000 ? more? posts over? Apparently it's not insanity when you do it? 😮
The dogs bark, but the caravan goes on!
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Post by giuseppe on Aug 23, 2023 2:17:44 GMT -5
fixit you are obfuscating again, avoiding an uncomfortable reality! “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results”
Your ability to see past 'the beam in your own eye' is remarkable! Different TMB incarnations, how many? (acceptable for some, but not for others seems to be the TMB 'rule of thumb'? )
The same repertoire over and over and 25000? 30,000 ? more? posts over? Apparently it's not insanity when you do it? 😮
The dogs bark, but the caravan goes on! Come on you persona give International a break! He’s only had 11 years to help fix the CSA/SA problems and he has been very busy posting as noels/review005/JWNZ/Internationalstudies and mama Mia how many more names. I’m sure his work during this time has put a stop to any more little bodies and minds being damaged.
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Post by snow on Aug 23, 2023 13:57:29 GMT -5
The dogs bark, but the caravan goes on! Come on you persona give International a break! He’s only had 11 years to help fix the CSA/SA problems and he has been very busy posting as noels/review005/JWNZ/Internationalstudies and mama Mia how many more names. I’m sure his work during this time has put a stop to any more little bodies and minds being damaged. Don't forget that little stint awhile back when he was Wayne Dean telling us that he couldn't control International Studies and he was so sorry. I don't believe JWNZ actually was IS though. He says it wasn't and I do think he really does care about the survivors.
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jwatt
Junior Member
Posts: 191
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Post by jwatt on Aug 23, 2023 19:38:37 GMT -5
Come on you persona give International a break! He’s only had 11 years to help fix the CSA/SA problems and he has been very busy posting as noels/review005/JWNZ/Internationalstudies and mama Mia how many more names. I’m sure his work during this time has put a stop to any more little bodies and minds being damaged. Don't forget that little stint awhile back when he was Wayne Dean telling us that he couldn't control International Studies and he was so sorry. I don't believe JWNZ actually was IS though. He says it wasn't and I do think he really does care about the survivors. Oh, I missed that post, snow. Wonder if Wayne Dean knew of this stint!!!
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Post by Pragmatic on Aug 23, 2023 20:12:39 GMT -5
Don't forget that little stint awhile back when he was Wayne Dean telling us that he couldn't control International Studies and he was so sorry. I don't believe JWNZ actually was IS though. He says it wasn't and I do think he really does care about the survivors. Oh, I missed that post, snow. Wonder if Wayne Dean knew of this stint!!! I saw them, but I only know who it wasn't. I don't know who it was. It was amusing for a bit, but then went too far.
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Post by fixit on Aug 23, 2023 21:42:06 GMT -5
I don't believe JWNZ actually was IS though. He says it wasn't and I do think he really does care about the survivors. Like all of us, our resident worker has his good attributes and his not so good attributes. Too bad he doesn't seem to recognise any good attributes in some of us.
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Post by giuseppe on Aug 24, 2023 1:51:01 GMT -5
I don't believe JWNZ actually was IS though. He says it wasn't and I do think he really does care about the survivors. Like all of us, our resident worker has his good attributes and his not so good attributes. Too bad he doesn't seem to recognise any good attributes in some of us. Oh and I forgot the other name he posts under - Traveller.
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Post by jondough on Aug 24, 2023 16:08:57 GMT -5
internationalstudies: Curious why you have posted under so many different names..i.e. Noels (before my time on TMB)....then Review005(during my time here), now "internationalstudies".... I'm sure you have your reason. I do notice that you ridicule people for how many post they have. I know there was at least one more name because you changed names while I was on TMB a few years ago. You ARE easy to recognize under any name you go by tho (this could be good, bad or ??). I'm not attacking you. I'm just asking so please don't answer me with an attack. Thank you JD
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Post by godsgrace on Aug 24, 2023 17:05:57 GMT -5
Like all of us, our resident worker has his good attributes and his not so good attributes. Too bad he doesn't seem to recognise any good attributes in some of us. Oh and I forgot the other name he posts under - Traveller. Seems he's currently posting under that one on Wings now... trolling over there
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Post by chuck on Aug 24, 2023 19:42:38 GMT -5
11 years ago being told all was well, everything is under control and here we are. Finding out the complete opposite. Unless of course being under control meant that the friends were being kept in the dark and the workers could carry on, business as usual It is the complete opposite of your expectations, but the results show what theirs fundementally were sadly, and that is control at any cost......
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Post by fixit on Aug 24, 2023 22:53:38 GMT -5
11 years ago being told all was well, everything is under control and here we are. Finding out the complete opposite. Unless of course being under control meant that the friends were being kept in the dark and the workers could carry on, business as usual It is the complete opposite of your expectations, but the results show what theirs fundementally were sadly, and that is control at any cost...... The cost is very high actually. Members of the organisation are pulled in opposite directions.... 1. Those who are led by the hierarchy. 2. Those who are led by the spirit of God. Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
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