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Post by Admin on Apr 19, 2023 19:40:32 GMT -5
This is a thread for any who knew the man, or those who know of the man and his ideas and influence, to post comments that give an insight into who he really was. As I've already said, there are 67 entries (sermons and a couple of funeral services) by Jack Carroll on the trutharchive.net/ website. As others have pointed out, there are numerous references to Jack Carroll by present-day workers seeking to justify some of their decisions and actions, e.g. in the 15 pages of notes from the recent meeting between friends with their workers: professing.proboards.com/post/1044316/threadHe seems a bit of a Pope-like figure for F&W, looking back on history. Was he really a Christ-like person? Was he legalistic? Was his doctrine biblically sound? Interesting to try and find out. Ultimately, hopefully some can critique some of those online sermons by Jack Carroll here, to help better historically define this significant F&W figure.
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Post by Admin on Apr 19, 2023 19:43:02 GMT -5
professing.proboards.com/post/1044325/threadWell, I personally feel validated, not triggered. Every time I post something quoting a historical worker, I get gaslit and mocked and told that nobody in the Truth believes that any more. This overseer quotes Jack Carrol more than scripture! How long has Jack been dead for?And OMG...these people come to a supposedly serious meeting about protecting women and children from abuse and end up talking about whether it is a sin to play sports on Sunday and the acceptability of Christmas treed and Easter eggs. Sounded just like the friends sitting at the feet of St. Eldon Tennis wood 40 years ago.
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Post by Admin on Apr 19, 2023 19:45:51 GMT -5
I couldn't figure out if Jack Carroll being referred to was the long passed one, or another worker of the same name.
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Post by Admin on Apr 19, 2023 19:47:50 GMT -5
I couldn't figure out if Jack Carroll being referred to was the long passed one, or another worker of the same name. It is THE Jack Carroll. He is widely regarded as a standard bearer of forever stature in this part of the world.To my knowledge there never was another Jack Carroll worker. But funny enough, there was another George Walker who was also a worker back east. He had a wife, named Margaret. I went to meeting for a short while where he was being cared for when he was on his very last legs. Quiet fellow, I found him to be.[/quote]
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Post by Admin on Apr 19, 2023 19:49:04 GMT -5
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Post by Admin on Apr 19, 2023 19:55:13 GMT -5
It is THE Jack Carroll. He is widely regarded as a standard bearer of forever stature in this part of the world. To my knowledge there never was another Jack Carroll worker. I was raised on many pronouncements, prefaced by "Jack Carroll always said..."Merlin grew up not far from me, and though we had very different family cultures, that may have been true for him as well. The good part of it, in my view, was these Jack Carroll references frequently came out when my mother disagreed with something someone was currently doing. It taught me it was okay to question things (which some people would have thought was a bad thing).
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Post by Admin on Apr 19, 2023 20:00:56 GMT -5
professing.proboards.com/thread/31883/current-world-country-hierarchyIn the early days I believe it was shared in the US with Jack Carroll on one side and George Walker on the other. I am not sure what the line of succession has been since they passed. No-one seems to really know who is over their overseer. George Walker was succeeded by Taylor Wood and then by Barry Barkley. Jack Carrol was succeeded by Dale Shultz.
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Post by Admin on Apr 19, 2023 20:03:28 GMT -5
George Walker was succeeded by Taylor Wood and then by Barry Barkley. Jack Carrol was succeeded by Dale Shultz. There were a couple between Jack and Dale, weren't there?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2023 12:37:56 GMT -5
trutharchive.net/jack-carroll-letter/In this letter to a "Grace", you can tell he was very interested in where the workers were traveling and going.trutharchive.net/jack-carroll-the-true-ministers/Here's his critique of the "true ministers". I can't find doctrine - no doubt it is in other sermons. I just searched his name and clicked on the first few results.1. Are you prepared to sell all? Are you prepared to make yourself poor? Are you willing, as the very first condition, to have fellowship with Jesus in His poverty? In connection with the New Testament ministry, there is a very real equality–no one of us make a greater sacrifice than the other. We each sacrifice ALL. We are all placed on the same level. (note - the Catholic priests also are "poor" by making sure their property actually belongs to the church. Same idea)
2. The second condition has to do with being homeless. Are you willing to be homeless for life? Jesus said, “Foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests but I, the Son of Man, hath no where to lay my head.” (note - disregard the apostles, who had homes. Some worldly people would interpret this as Jesus saying that his home was not of this earth, being the Son of God. Mr. Carroll however understands this to mean that the ministry should be homeless. The apostles must have been wrong too.)3. The third condition: Are you willing to put the preaching of the Gospel before the claims of your own flesh and blood, living or dead? Luke 9:59-62. Instead of Jesus bribing men to enter the ministry, it would almost seem as though He were trying to prevent them. Instead of making it easy for them, He made it hard, for He wanted to test the depth and sincerity of those who expressed a wish to have a part in the ministry. Do you appreciate that? (note - "My yoke is easy and my burden is light" is not something I've often heard workers and ex-workers reference.) 4. The fourth question is: Are you willing to go forth without having any individual or group pledged to take care of you and to preach the gospel without money and without price, whenever you have opportunity? We are glad to know that throughout the whole world, God’s servants have been able to go forth in His Name and are preaching the Gospel as it was in the New Testament days, without money and without price. (Note - false worldly churches have 'mission trips' to underprivileged regions of the world, preaching the gospel without money or price. These worldly churches also do things to ease the natural suffering of people as well by providing food, medication, housing and much more. These wouldn't be likely to count for Mr. Carroll though) 5. The fifth question is: Are you willing to be as a corn of wheat which falls into the ground and dies? Are you willing to let death work so that life may be wrought in others? Are you willing to be dead to what is honorable and legitimate for others? (note - presumably an example of what is honorable and legitimate for others is reporting the sexual abuse of children to authorities, and seeking the good of the victims over the reputations of the abusers. This one seems to be very fitting for today's True Sent Ministry)
6. The sixth question is: How far are you willing to go in preaching the Gospel? There is no such thing as a settled or fixed ministry in the New Testament days. None of us are in any one state for life. Jesus said to His disciples, “Go ye forth into all the world, teaching all the nations and baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost.” (note - this was prior to the command to stop evangelizing and focus on 'keeping what we've got'. This one might not apply to today's 2x2 True Ministry)
Reading these sorts of sermons is actually really helpful to understand how the ideas came to be accepted and taken as doctrine. It helps to understand the attitudes of people who grew up hearing this. I know many of the friends don't think this way, but these sermons help me to understand and (hopefully) have compassion to some extent.
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Post by openingact34 on Apr 24, 2023 12:23:20 GMT -5
Jack Carroll spent an enormous amount time in direct communication with God through the power of prayer.
Here is a very important message he relayed regarding how the Holy Spirit was being grieved by the wickedness of wedding showers being held amongst God's true people.
There was never any similar message about the child molesters running rampant. Apparently God didn't find that grievous, or distressing at all.
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Post by verna on Apr 24, 2023 13:40:24 GMT -5
Jack Carroll spent an enormous amount time in direct communication with God through the power of prayer. Here is a very important message he relayed regarding how the Holy Spirit was being grieved by the wickedness of wedding showers being held amongst God's true people. There was never any similar message about the child molesters running rampant. Apparently God didn't find that grievous, or distressing at all. I try very hard to be respectful but “stuff” like this makes it quite difficult. For real???
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Post by neighbour on Apr 24, 2023 13:52:02 GMT -5
Jack Carroll spent an enormous amount time in direct communication with God through the power of prayer. Here is a very important message he relayed regarding how the Holy Spirit was being grieved by the wickedness of wedding showers being held amongst God's true people. There was never any similar message about the child molesters running rampant. Apparently God didn't find that grievous, or distressing at all. I try very hard to be respectful but “stuff” like this makes it quite difficult. For real??? The Fun Police used to be a lot more prevalent. Funny how none of those edicts had any lasting effect...it's almost like they had no foundation. For a "way" that is "unchanging", I often chuckle about how now-long-dead workers wouldn't recognize us as friends, especially the women of course. There is only one narrow way to salvation that few have found, but none of this sort of noise is it. If it's any consolation, the Millennial generation in my area has experienced a huge drop-off in legalistic/fear-based preaching during the course of our lives...it pretty much comes from old visiting workers now. No one even gets offended by it any more, it's more of a joke how out of touch they are. Even when meetings are tested our workers are clear that if someone stands up it should because they had already decided to follow Christ out of love, not because of pressure in the moment or because someone expects them to.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 26, 2023 8:47:44 GMT -5
Jack Carroll spent an enormous amount time in direct communication with God through the power of prayer. Here is a very important message he relayed regarding how the Holy Spirit was being grieved by the wickedness of wedding showers being held amongst God's true people. There was never any similar message about the child molesters running rampant. Apparently God didn't find that grievous, or distressing at all. Doesn't sound much like the marriage in Cana. Heck, I've been to a wedding between one professing and one not professing partner, and two workers were also in attendance, with probably 90 or 100 guests. But I remember that when I got married in 1967 I insisted that my bride wear the modest but beautiful white wedding dress she wanted, instead of listening to a host of others telling her that wasn't fitting for a professing person. I was so pleased with her that day, and the elder's wife complimented on how lovely she looked.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2023 11:08:14 GMT -5
trutharchive.net/jack-carroll-the-purpose-of-redemption/Carroll on the purpose of redemption. "Emphasis today is placed on Jesus as Savior. That is not the gospel." Silly John 3:16 (Often called the "gospel in a nutshell") "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2023 20:09:07 GMT -5
trutharchive.net/jack-carroll-the-purpose-of-redemption/Carroll on the purpose of redemption. "Emphasis today is placed on Jesus as Savior. That is not the gospel." Silly John 3:16 (Often called the "gospel in a nutshell") "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." That does sound really bad, but here is more context at your link above... The Lordship of Jesus was the kernel of the gospel in apostolic days. Emphasis today is placed on Jesus as Savior. That is not the gospel. It appeals to the selfishness of the human heart, as all want Jesus for a Savior when they look into eternity. The real difference between the false and the true gospel is that emphasis is placed on the word Lord. Who has the first claim on all you are and all you have? Who do you consult most often in regard to your plans? If it is the Lord – the purpose of Calvary is being fulfilled in your life. It is easy to confess Jesus as teacher, example, even as Redeemer, but not quite as easy to confess Him as Lord. “Christ both died, rose and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.” How selfish to accept from His hands forgiveness of sin and not be willing for Him to be Lord. Every truly redeemed soul can sing from their hearts, “Reign over me, Lord Jesus, oh make my heart Thy home, It shall be Thine forever, it shall be thine alone.” Titus 2:12-14, “Who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”
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Post by neighbour on Apr 26, 2023 20:20:44 GMT -5
trutharchive.net/jack-carroll-the-purpose-of-redemption/Carroll on the purpose of redemption. "Emphasis today is placed on Jesus as Savior. That is not the gospel." Silly John 3:16 (Often called the "gospel in a nutshell") "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." That does sound really bad, but here is more context at your link above... The Lordship of Jesus was the kernel of the gospel in apostolic days. Emphasis today is placed on Jesus as Savior. That is not the gospel. It appeals to the selfishness of the human heart, as all want Jesus for a Savior when they look into eternity. The real difference between the false and the true gospel is that emphasis is placed on the word Lord. Who has the first claim on all you are and all you have? Who do you consult most often in regard to your plans? If it is the Lord – the purpose of Calvary is being fulfilled in your life. It is easy to confess Jesus as teacher, example, even as Redeemer, but not quite as easy to confess Him as Lord. “Christ both died, rose and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.” How selfish to accept from His hands forgiveness of sin and not be willing for Him to be Lord. Every truly redeemed soul can sing from their hearts, “Reign over me, Lord Jesus, oh make my heart Thy home, It shall be Thine forever, it shall be thine alone.” Titus 2:12-14, “Who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” Paul also referred to Jesus as "Our Lord" (in Greek, kurios) 54 times in his epistles.
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 26, 2023 22:04:45 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2023 2:03:46 GMT -5
trutharchive.net/jack-carroll-the-purpose-of-redemption/Carroll on the purpose of redemption. "Emphasis today is placed on Jesus as Savior. That is not the gospel." Silly John 3:16 (Often called the "gospel in a nutshell") "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." That does sound really bad, but here is more context at your link above... The Lordship of Jesus was the kernel of the gospel in apostolic days. Emphasis today is placed on Jesus as Savior. That is not the gospel. It appeals to the selfishness of the human heart, as all want Jesus for a Savior when they look into eternity. The real difference between the false and the true gospel is that emphasis is placed on the word Lord. Who has the first claim on all you are and all you have? Who do you consult most often in regard to your plans? If it is the Lord – the purpose of Calvary is being fulfilled in your life. It is easy to confess Jesus as teacher, example, even as Redeemer, but not quite as easy to confess Him as Lord. “Christ both died, rose and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.” How selfish to accept from His hands forgiveness of sin and not be willing for Him to be Lord. Every truly redeemed soul can sing from their hearts, “Reign over me, Lord Jesus, oh make my heart Thy home, It shall be Thine forever, it shall be thine alone.” Titus 2:12-14, “Who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” I guess if someone saved me, they'd be "Lord" by default. It's a normal proposition for Christian groups, from what I can tell, but it seems to leave the door open for "if Jesus is your Lord, you better do [xyz] works to show it". In other words, by emphasizing the Lord part, we get to set the criteria for what it looks like. This isn't just a 2x2 thing. Paul also struggled with the concept. A people with Jesus as Lord wouldn't do things like allow women to speak in church. According to Paul, that is - the modern Christian thinks differently.
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 27, 2023 7:58:27 GMT -5
There were a couple between Jack and Dale, weren't there? Yes: Jack Carroll (to 1957) to Willie Jamieson (to 1974) to Eldon Tenniswood (died 2003) to Dick Middleton to Dale Shultz to Robert Newman.
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 27, 2023 8:01:06 GMT -5
By Jack T. Carroll - Hayden Lake, ID 1932 - Workers to Foreign Fields
We have been hearing already in the meetings many things pertaining to the Kingdom of God and I hope that there is in the minds and hearts of all a deepened interest in this Kingdom. The Kingdom of God is founded in the world by the mutual sacrifice of God's servants and of God's saints. The progress and growth of this Kingdom depends upon our continued willingness, as the servants and saints of God, to sacrifice. Earthly kingdom's are founded by selfishness; God's heavenly Kingdom here upon earth is founded by sacrifice.
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Post by Admin on Apr 27, 2023 8:18:59 GMT -5
By Jack T. Carroll - Hayden Lake, ID 1932 - Workers to Foreign Fields We have been hearing already in the meetings many things pertaining to the Kingdom of God and I hope that there is in the minds and hearts of all a deepened interest in this Kingdom. The Kingdom of God is founded in the world by the mutual sacrifice of God's servants and of God's saints. The progress and growth of this Kingdom depends upon our continued willingness, as the servants and saints of God, to sacrifice.Really? Re the the foundation of God's kingdom in the world, the bible would seem to put the focus on God (his character and love), not on us or anything of man (be it sacrifice of God's 'servants' or 'saints'). Progress and growth - perhaps the Holy Spirit has something to do with this? Romans 14:17 "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit."
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Post by Admin on Apr 27, 2023 18:07:16 GMT -5
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."
If the foundational doctrine of the meeting fellowship is wrong, then no amount of 'small steps' to address the current crisis of immorality and illegality in the ministry will fix anything.
Other verses coming to mind:
Mark 7:7-8 "And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men— the washing of pots and cups, and many other such things you do.”
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Post by Admin on Apr 27, 2023 21:30:08 GMT -5
trutharchive.net/jack-carroll-the-purpose-of-redemption/Carroll on the purpose of redemption. "Emphasis today is placed on Jesus as Savior. That is not the gospel." Silly John 3:16 (Often called the "gospel in a nutshell") "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." @ipsedixit, did Jack Carroll really say that?! Our concern right now, in this mess that we are in, is that if the foundation of our form of fellowship is fundamentally flawed (doctrinally), then no amount of "small steps" or courses on CSA and addressing other worker/friends immoral/illegal behavior are going to lead to a permanent fix. Perhaps most importantly, there will be no pleasure of almighty God in such a 'church' and consequently no blessing. From OT examples, the opposite (wrath of God) is likely, eventually. I would love to be wrong, to discover that our "founding fathers" like Wm Irvine & Jack Carroll had started with biblically sound doctrine, and somehow with time we have in recent years deviated. We could then get "back on track". But with statements from Jack Carroll in his online sermons, like the one you quote, and this: "The Kingdom of God is founded in the world by the mutual sacrifice of God's servants and of God's saints", it is possible that right now we are simply experiencing the fruits of a foundation built on some false doctrine. If Lyle Schober's 'Getting Back on Track' meeting in May could address the fundamental meeting doctrine on issues such as salvation, grace, putting God front and center (not us), then we could have some hope!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2023 23:07:17 GMT -5
trutharchive.net/jack-carroll-the-purpose-of-redemption/Carroll on the purpose of redemption. "Emphasis today is placed on Jesus as Savior. That is not the gospel." Silly John 3:16 (Often called the "gospel in a nutshell") "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." @ipsedixit, did Jack Carroll really say that?! Our concern right now, in this mess that we are in, is that if the foundation of our form of fellowship is fundamentally flawed (doctrinally), then no amount of "small steps" or courses on CSA and addressing other worker/friends immoral/illegal behavior are going to lead to a permanent fix. Perhaps most importantly, there will be no pleasure of almighty God in such a 'church' and consequently no blessing. From OT examples, the opposite (wrath of God) is likely, eventually. I would love to be wrong, to discover that our "founding fathers" like Wm Irvine & Jack Carroll had started with biblically sound doctrine, and somehow with time we have in recent years deviated. We could then get "back on track". But with statements from Jack Carroll in his online sermons, like the one you quote, and this: "The Kingdom of God is founded in the world by the mutual sacrifice of God's servants and of God's saints", it is possible that right now we are simply experiencing the fruits of a foundation built on some false doctrine. If Lyle Schober's 'Getting Back on Track' meeting in May could address the fundamental meeting doctrine on issues such as salvation, grace, putting God front and center (not us), then we could have some hope! That's what the recorded sermon says... - his point was that the "kernel" of the gospel was Jesus being "Lord". It's an easy couple of steps. Is Jesus your Lord? Well, you better do his will. What's his will? Why, whatever God's True Servants say of course. The old "bait and switch".
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Post by a sister on Apr 28, 2023 21:54:40 GMT -5
There were a couple between Jack and Dale, weren't there?
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Post by a sister on Apr 28, 2023 21:55:16 GMT -5
There were a couple between Jack and Dale, weren't there?
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Post by Admin on Jan 9, 2024 7:16:35 GMT -5
When I professed, I come to discover Jack Carroll was the Overseer in the West USA, and George Walker was Overseer in the East. I lived in the eastern USA and hell and brimfire was a central part of the gospel message. During the 60's - 80's I understood the west was more liberal than the east. I don't know what the main theological differences were between the east and west other than attending a few Sunday morning meetings in LA. In the west I understood they could have radios and wedding rings. I was old enough to remember one sister worker with black stockings. Several others wore victorian high top lace up shoes. In the West they didn't kneel to pray like in the east. I know several who moved from the east to the west because the west was more liberal.
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