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Post by ScholarGal on Jul 25, 2007 12:11:30 GMT -5
However, I have been reading here for a long time--and most of the stuff here is right down my ally--which is the cultural stuff (taboos, restrictions, habits). That is what I am interested in and I find plenty of it here. I have always been fascinated by this stuff--why do Mormons have special underwear? That is the kind of thing I am interested in. And there is plenty here to draw me. I read all your websites and have read most of the books. Hi Chris, Welcome to the board. I share your fascination with the cultural aspects, but I am actually a member of the group. A few areas that especially interest me: differences in the 2x2 culture on different continents, changes in 2x2 norms in America as they embrace the internet for communication with each other, and tracing how certain men have tremendous influence over their own geographic area. Email me if you want to hear more: scholargal78@yahoo.com You'll find a pretty strong reaction to the word "cult" here, but I think it is an accurate description when it is used according to the simple dictionary definition. Though there is some pressure to conform to arbitrary standards of appearance and behavior, my opinion is that the actual examples of dangerous cult-like control and manipulation by powerful figures are the exception and not the norm. For all the rest of you who object to the use of the word "cult", consider how people view cult films. Cult films followers tend to be classified differently than David Koresh followers or the Jim Jones followers who drank the poisoned Kool-Aid. ScholarGal
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Post by diet coke on Jul 25, 2007 12:52:59 GMT -5
I have no problem defining the f&w way as a cult, if ever we can agree on what a cult is. Then, we can classify most religions as a cult (basically, everything but mainstream Christianity) and do away with the word, as it becomes nearly meaningless. But in the mean time, most of us equate cult=brainwashed, and it is meant purely as a derogatory term. I don't like the word.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2007 13:01:01 GMT -5
DC, I agree with both you and scholargal. Our group is technically a cult by most definitions. However, because the word is emotive and carries the baggage of connotations of evil, mean, destructive, brainwashed, it is a word that is inappropriately used in many instances, including regarding the 2x2s. Many people use the word as a destructive sword, and that's the objectionable part.
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ann
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Jesus did NOT say follow people .. He said follow ME!
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Post by ann on Jul 25, 2007 13:02:00 GMT -5
If it's not a "cult" what is it? Exclusive, less than honest, deceptive, the workers' way - do as your told or hit the road. Sorry you don't like the term; those that defend don't. I'll never understand those who know the deception, lies, back-stabbing, gossiping that goes on stay with it? Are those qualities of God? Not saying to cause a ruckus - just something to think about.
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Post by diet coke on Jul 25, 2007 13:12:21 GMT -5
If it's not a "cult" what is it? Exclusive, less than honest, deceptive, the workers' way - do as your told or hit the road. Sorry you don't like the term; those that defend don't. I'll never understand those who know the deception, lies, back-stabbing, gossiping that goes on stay with it? Are those qualities of God? Not saying to cause a ruckus - just something to think about. That's fine, Ann. Call is exclusive, dishonest, deceptive, back-stabbing, or gossipy. None of which I have ever experienced in my 34 years of professing, with the exception of exclusivity. But at least we know what we are talking about now and can form our own opinions, instead of using a derogatory, misapproriate, imprecisely-defined word.
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tms
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Post by tms on Jul 25, 2007 13:14:33 GMT -5
"Hello", we're here to converse about religion. That's what this board is. Thing about religion is, you can study it but you can't understand it unless you experience it. It is the Spirit that we feel within religion that makes it a deep topic for us. For a lesser but comparable experience, try listening to Bach off-and-on while sitting on a lonely sunshiny mountaintop overlooking the ocean for an hour. Even most exes will admit that they felt the spirit within the 2x2 religion. So, while we argue and cuss at each other and complain and wonder if God is really out there, we are bound together by an unexplainable feeling from which we can't escape. HI CHRIS, welcome to this forum, it is very interesting. That is fine that you are here to interact and observe. I grew up in the way called the truth, but I am no longer involved in it. I am also like you, I am very fascinated by other religions and what they beleive. I have studied personally with the JW's, and I have been to the Mormon church many many times, and have close relatives that are mormon, I have also studied Budhism and heen to many temples and buddhist funerals. I probably know more about relligion that anyone else in my group of friends/family. The Truth group is indeed fascinating, its not a cult like a Charles Manson group, but its a cult like the JW or the Mormons in its own way, nice folks, but some are a bit off their rockers. Dont get offended by people on this board...enjoy.
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ann
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Jesus did NOT say follow people .. He said follow ME!
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Post by ann on Jul 25, 2007 13:31:43 GMT -5
You are very fortunate to never have experienced any of the negative - hope that continues for you. If it doesn't, you won't be surprised by those of us who have shared experiences otherwise. No harm intended. You are entitled to your opinion. Even though your last sentence sounds a little on the huffy side.
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Post by diet coke on Jul 25, 2007 13:49:18 GMT -5
You are very fortunate to never have experienced any of the negative - hope that continues for you. If it doesn't, you won't be surprised by those of us who have shared experiences otherwise. No harm intended. You are entitled to your opinion. Even though your last sentence sounds a little on the huffy side. Yeah, sorry I got a little huffy. But never experienced any negative?? Ann, I know LOTS of people inside and outside the Truth that are liars or gossipers. What on earth does that have to do with worship? I do not criticize you for finding a more comfortable environment for worship. I'm not an exclusivist by any definition of the word; surely there are better, more Godly people out there in some other group than the group I meet with. Sounds like you found some. But besides sharing a religious denomination (a minor categorization) why would you lump all of the f&w in the category of whatever losers you got stuck with? Congrats for finding a better group of people to share your time with.
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Post by nitro on Jul 25, 2007 17:35:59 GMT -5
I felt it may be time to come out of the closet a bit myself. I am fascinating (really). I am a single never married straight man in my 30's living in San Francisco . I am quite germ-phobic and have too many health problems weird personality things to list (think of me as a Jerry Seinfeld type).
And I have a great fascination with cults--particularly this one. My name is Chris From Hello to all
I think this guy is yanking our chain to many pink flags.
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Post by Hello to all on Jul 25, 2007 19:48:32 GMT -5
Thanks for the trip down memory lane! When I was in Junior High School, there were a few kids who were misfits and were always picked on and humiliated by the "cool kids". These kids were subjected to humilation, taunting etc. Usually one of the most common verbal assaults was to accuse the child of being "gay". Of course these accusations had nothing to do with the porr child being bullied--and have everything to do with the ones doing the bullying. What kind of people were they that it made them feel good to point fingers at and label someone else? Why did they feel the need to question the sexuality of another? What purpose does this kind of accusation serve? I have read here for a while and I know that several of the kindest and most intelligent people in this online community are among those who are "gay". On their behalf, I am offended that you choose such a characterization with the intent of insulting me. Personally, think of me however you wish. It doesn't matter to me what you think of me. I am straight, however everyone in my life who loves me would be accepting of my sexuality no matter what it is. So I have no fears or phobias in this area. Perhaps your bullying would get a better response from someone raised in a more homophobic envrionment, or someone who fears what others might think of them if they were gay? I CAN assure you that I have no interest whatsoever in having sex with you and hopefully we can leave it at that. The personality that you are presenting here is repelling to me--no matter what your gender I doubt I would desire to be intimate with you.
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Post by Hello to all on Jul 25, 2007 20:07:39 GMT -5
Chris, I take offense to you, a person who has no idea what religion is all about, calling my friends and family a cult. I put up with it from ex-members who have had bad experiences. But it is still a 4-letter word having no purpose (in the religious world) except to ridicule differing beliefs, and (in the non-religious world) to describe a group of people who are able to experience things that you are not. The Mormons wear special underwear because their church fathers tell them to. They experience the Spirit in their way, and because people tend to relate that spiritual experience to mean they are right with God, they assume that the way they were raised is God's true way. So they wear clean underwear, and we wear our hair in buns. It's not that complicated. But all of the things you are "studying" about our religions are irrelevent surface quirks. Diet Coke--it is not I who is mistaken about the Mormons and their underwear. Indeed Mormons wear these garments (top and bottom) to this very day--the garments are supposed to have protective powers and sadly they are rarely clean--the garments must be worn next to the skin 24-7. For devout ladies this is exceptionally uncomfortable, because the most devout wear their bras etc OVER the garment--making the whole ensemble fit quite poorly! True--many will remove the garment to wash it on a very occasional basis, but the most devout never remove their garments until they are literally falling off! Yes--the devout will even shower in them, have marital sex in them, have babies while wearing them---etc etc! When the garments are so old and HOLY that they are literally falling off--then they can be replaced with new garments. You may want to familiarize yourself with a subject before presenting yourself as an expert in it. If you are interested in Mormons, this board is their equivalent of TMB: www.exmormon.org/And thanks to A Mormon for helping me to set the record straight. As far as the C word--I still consider if highly appropriate for this group. But as it is offensive I will refrain from using it here. This does not mean that I agree with you. I do not consider it as a particularly perjorative term, I consider it highly descriptive of certain groups. I will leave it at that and do my best to avoid this term. Based on the behavior of some people here, it seems I am more respectful of your feelings than you are of mine. Doesn't bother me--but it is good to know.
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Post by Hello to all on Jul 25, 2007 20:08:50 GMT -5
Chris wrote: "I would be proud if I were you. It is very cool to have such an unusual and unique heritage and come from a cultural background. However, very few non-members will ever share or understand this background. The few inside have each other family and friends." Interesting comment Chris, and a lot of truth to it. Our background is indeed "unusual and unique", and nothing to really be ashamed about. In fact, a certain pride of the heritage does exist amongst many members, probably not greatly unlike Jewish pride or gay pride. There are some cultural experiences that will never be known to most people in society. An example is when I was once in a business situation far from home. My client was obviously, by her traditional "look", a member of the church. When I identified my like membership, her demeanor went from slightly dour and wary to estatic and sisterly. It was like turning a switch from off to on with this complete stranger. This is the kind of thing that you are probably fascinated by Chris, and will not likely ever experience. It is probably difficult for most of us to understand your fascination as we were brought up with these kinds of experiences as commonplace. Exactly right--spot on!
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Post by Hello to all on Jul 25, 2007 20:10:09 GMT -5
DC, I agree with both you and scholargal. Our group is technically a cult by most definitions. However, because the word is emotive and carries the baggage of connotations of evil, mean, destructive, brainwashed, it is a word that is inappropriately used in many instances, including regarding the 2x2s. Many people use the word as a destructive sword, and that's the objectionable part. Once again--spot on! Thanks for explaining so well!
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Post by Hello to all on Jul 25, 2007 20:16:29 GMT -5
Thank you--
Randall, want to be with god, freespirit, clearday, jh62, A Mormom, Mr Leo, Peacemaker, scholargal, tms and ann. I appreciate your kindness and openness to me.
Scholargirl--I will take you up on your offer to talk sometime. I would enjoy that.
I am going to check out of here for a while--I take a class on Wednesday nights. I am studying to become a CIH (Certified Industrial Hygienist) This would increase my salary and give me a lot of job security--but it is extremely hard certification to earn. My company pays for my classes. The main negative is that if I have this certification, I think I may end up very overworked. But I am going for it anyway. I thought I could stay here until 6:30 tonight but the traffic out there is going to be worse than usual.
So I am going to leave a few minutes early for my class .
Sorry to cut things short--I will be back when I can.
Chris
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My sister wears garments
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Post by My sister wears garments on Jul 25, 2007 20:41:45 GMT -5
Chris, I take offense to you, a person who has no idea what religion is all about, calling my friends and family a cult. I put up with it from ex-members who have had bad experiences. But it is still a 4-letter word having no purpose (in the religious world) except to ridicule differing beliefs, and (in the non-religious world) to describe a group of people who are able to experience things that you are not. The Mormons wear special underwear because their church fathers tell them to. They experience the Spirit in their way, and because people tend to relate that spiritual experience to mean they are right with God, they assume that the way they were raised is God's true way. So they wear clean underwear, and we wear our hair in buns. It's not that complicated. But all of the things you are "studying" about our religions are irrelevent surface quirks. Diet Coke--it is not I who is mistaken about the Mormons and their underwear. Indeed Mormons wear these garments (top and bottom) to this very day--the garments are supposed to have protective powers and sadly they are rarely clean--the garments must be worn next to the skin 24-7. For devout ladies this is exceptionally uncomfortable, because the most devout wear their bras etc OVER the garment--making the whole ensemble fit quite poorly! True--many will remove the garment to wash it on a very occasional basis, but the most devout never remove their garments until they are literally falling off! Yes--the devout will even shower in them, have marital sex in them, have babies while wearing them---etc etc! When the garments are so old and HOLY that they are literally falling off--then they can be replaced with new garments. You may want to familiarize yourself with a subject before presenting yourself as an expert in it. If you are interested in Mormons, this board is their equivalent of TMB: www.exmormon.org/And thanks to A Mormon for helping me to set the record straight. As far as the C word--I still consider if highly appropriate for this group. But as it is offensive I will refrain from using it here. This does not mean that I agree with you. I do not consider it as a particularly perjorative term, I consider it highly descriptive of certain groups. I will leave it at that and do my best to avoid this term. Based on the behavior of some people here, it seems I am more respectful of your feelings than you are of mine. Doesn't bother me--but it is good to know. JUST SO YOU KNOW MY SISTER AND HER MAN WEAR THE GARMENTS. MY SISTER WHO IS A FORMER TWO BY TWO IS NOW A MORMON. She wears the shorts as underwear, but she does not shower in them, she does not have sex in the underwear and she did not wear them during her C-sections for her three kids. She has the top part of the garments, but she does not wear it under her bra. She washes the garments like she washes her underwear, on a regular basis. She does not always wear the garments but i would say 80% of the time-but she is not a religious freak about it. I dont ask her why she wears them because she gets angry because she thinks I will make fun of her, so we dont ask, but she was not wearing them at her birth and she was not wearing them in the shower, (I know personally of this) My mom attended all her births and helped her bathe after the births and I have seen her naked a lot when I spend the night and she does not bathe in her garments. I have also seen her fold her laundry and the garments are washed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2007 20:52:28 GMT -5
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Post by really on Jul 25, 2007 20:55:15 GMT -5
How many people go parading around naked when they have people staying? And to think she wears under garments to keep her body clean or for what ever reason but goes around parading naked in front of visitors? Double standard......if the post is genuine
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Post by jh62 on Jul 25, 2007 20:56:31 GMT -5
Hi Hello to All, So I'm assuming that you're kind of a "people-watcher". Me too. You said you find the 2x2 group interesting, and in a way I find wealthy, self-indulgent people interesting! Mostly what I've gathered from observing people is that although there are differences, above all, we're all still people, and can have respect for one another. It sounds like you were quite involved with the woman who was once a 2x2. What happened to her? Did you not keep in touch with her? Good luck with your classes! (Didn't know there was such a thing as a CIH!)
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Post by Hello on Jul 25, 2007 20:56:38 GMT -5
He said that most wash them--but the most devout do not. He is correct, I used to live in salt Lake City with a Mormon roomie who told me a lot about this. Apparently, the more devout you are, the less time you spend out of your garmies. They don't like to talk about it much--she says that everyone always wants to know about the underwear and she gets sick of talking about it.
Also--I don't think he said they ALL give birth through them--I think once again just the most devout. Naturally a C section would make this more difficult.
My roommate's father had a heart attack while we lived together. He had to have an emergency triple bypass--they were very concerned about him dying on the operating table and not having the garmies on (how would god know he was saved!). I guess her father was one of those really devout ones. He was a President I think?
So the mormon surgeon taped the garments to the man's ankle (so that he was still technically wearing the garments) for the surgery. I am not making this up honest! My friend did not wear them all the time--but she worried God would strike her down whenever she didn't have them on. she also washed them occasionally and replaced them before they were completely rancid--but she told me stories about relatives etc that were just plain gross and disgusting!
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not really hello to all
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Post by not really hello to all on Jul 25, 2007 20:58:21 GMT -5
OK I am not Hello to All--Apparently I just impersonate him on the internet. Sorry Chris.
I am a woman raised in this religion who spent a year at BYU studying medicinal plants!
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Post by Grow up Diet Coke on Jul 25, 2007 21:08:20 GMT -5
Diet Coke--it is not I who is mistaken about the Mormons and their underwear. Indeed Mormons wear these garments (top and bottom) to this very day--the garments are supposed to have protective powers and sadly they are rarely clean--the garments must be worn next to the skin 24-7. For devout ladies this is exceptionally uncomfortable, because the most devout wear their bras etc OVER the garment--making the whole ensemble fit quite poorly! True--many will remove the garment to wash it on a very occasional basis, but the most devout never remove their garments until they are literally falling off! Yes--the devout will even shower in them, have marital sex in them, have babies while wearing them---etc etc! When the garments are so old and HOLY that they are literally falling off--then they can be replaced with new garments. You may want to familiarize yourself with a subject before presenting yourself as an expert in it. If you are interested in Mormons, this board is their equivalent of TMB: www.exmormon.org/And thanks to A Mormon for helping me to set the record straight. As far as the C word--I still consider if highly appropriate for this group. But as it is offensive I will refrain from using it here. This does not mean that I agree with you. I do not consider it as a particularly perjorative term, I consider it highly descriptive of certain groups. I will leave it at that and do my best to avoid this term. Based on the behavior of some people here, it seems I am more respectful of your feelings than you are of mine. Doesn't bother me--but it is good to know. JUST SO YOU KNOW MY SISTER AND HER MAN WEAR THE GARMENTS. MY SISTER WHO IS A FORMER TWO BY TWO IS NOW A MORMON. She wears the shorts as underwear, but she does not shower in them, she does not have sex in the underwear and she did not wear them during her C-sections for her three kids. She has the top part of the garments, but she does not wear it under her bra. She washes the garments like she washes her underwear, on a regular basis. She does not always wear the garments but i would say 80% of the time-but she is not a religious freak about it. I dont ask her why she wears them because she gets angry because she thinks I will make fun of her, so we dont ask, but she was not wearing them at her birth and she was not wearing them in the shower, (I know personally of this) My mom attended all her births and helped her bathe after the births and I have seen her naked a lot when I spend the night and she does not bathe in her garments. I have also seen her fold her laundry and the garments are washed. nice try Diet Coke! ;D I just did some reading over on the website Chris mentioned--you are obviously wrong. Why don't you go and read about what mormons believe before you lie and then make up characters to swear to your lies! grow up. As you claim to belong to the Truth, you are embarrassing my religion. Thanks so much.
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poor sis needs to try harder
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Post by poor sis needs to try harder on Jul 25, 2007 21:11:44 GMT -5
Diet Coke--it is not I who is mistaken about the Mormons and their underwear. Indeed Mormons wear these garments (top and bottom) to this very day--the garments are supposed to have protective powers and sadly they are rarely clean--the garments must be worn next to the skin 24-7. For devout ladies this is exceptionally uncomfortable, because the most devout wear their bras etc OVER the garment--making the whole ensemble fit quite poorly! True--many will remove the garment to wash it on a very occasional basis, but the most devout never remove their garments until they are literally falling off! Yes--the devout will even shower in them, have marital sex in them, have babies while wearing them---etc etc! When the garments are so old and HOLY that they are literally falling off--then they can be replaced with new garments. You may want to familiarize yourself with a subject before presenting yourself as an expert in it. If you are interested in Mormons, this board is their equivalent of TMB: www.exmormon.org/And thanks to A Mormon for helping me to set the record straight. As far as the C word--I still consider if highly appropriate for this group. But as it is offensive I will refrain from using it here. This does not mean that I agree with you. I do not consider it as a particularly perjorative term, I consider it highly descriptive of certain groups. I will leave it at that and do my best to avoid this term. Based on the behavior of some people here, it seems I am more respectful of your feelings than you are of mine. Doesn't bother me--but it is good to know. JUST SO YOU KNOW MY SISTER AND HER MAN WEAR THE GARMENTS. MY SISTER WHO IS A FORMER TWO BY TWO IS NOW A MORMON. She wears the shorts as underwear, but she does not shower in them, she does not have sex in the underwear and she did not wear them during her C-sections for her three kids. She has the top part of the garments, but she does not wear it under her bra. She washes the garments like she washes her underwear, on a regular basis. She does not always wear the garments but i would say 80% of the time-but she is not a religious freak about it. I dont ask her why she wears them because she gets angry because she thinks I will make fun of her, so we dont ask, but she was not wearing them at her birth and she was not wearing them in the shower, (I know personally of this) My mom attended all her births and helped her bathe after the births and I have seen her naked a lot when I spend the night and she does not bathe in her garments. I have also seen her fold her laundry and the garments are washed. Maybe Sis isn't very devout. She doesn't sound like a model Molly Mormon. She should try harder--especiallly if she is already a failed 2x2. It would be quite an embarrassement to fail at two marginal religions. Perhaps if she doesn't make it in the Mormons, she could still try the Jehovah Witnesses. I imagine that habit of running around her house naked not caring who sees her would make her popular with all religions that go around doing a lot of door knocking!
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Post by NoI am not Chris on Jul 25, 2007 21:17:39 GMT -5
Don't mean to sound dumb here, but are you the original poster of this thread? Are you saying there is no "Chris"? No--I am an unregistered user who rarely posts--so I just choose to say Hello in the name section. After I posted I thought--oh no--"Hello" is way to similar to the name that Chris is using--so I should make it clear tp everyone that I am not Chris and that I am sorry. I did not use his exact name--but after posting I decided that I should not have chosen a name so close to his. I don't want to create confusion. I am not Chris. I have posted here before--but very irregularly and the last time was months ago. This is my second post on this thread. I am not responsible for any others.
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Post by jh62 on Jul 25, 2007 21:21:25 GMT -5
Oh, OK! I was confused! lol. It happens quite often.
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Post by BYU survivor again on Jul 25, 2007 21:29:01 GMT -5
yeah I was an idiot to just write "hello" in the field--I wasn't thinking. I didn't want people to jump on me thinking I was impersonating someone.
I got excited because I do know a bit about the Mormon religion. I have to say that I liked my LDS friend very much. She had just finished up her mission in Japan. She was absolutely stunning--tall blonde gorgeous and spoke perfect Japanese and made delicious perfect sushi! She also was a very sweet person, so I am not making fun of her in anyway. I really respected her religion and she respected mine. Friends are funny like that. She told me a lot of great Mormon stories and I reciprocated and told her about this way. We are still in touch 14 years later!
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Post by jh62 on Jul 25, 2007 21:32:48 GMT -5
Isn't it wonderful when people can create "bridges" and become friends?! It doesn't mean you have to take on their beliefs, but you can be respectful of one another.
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Post by jh62 on Jul 25, 2007 21:37:28 GMT -5
Reminds me of one of my favorite poems by Edgar Guest:
When You Know a Fellow When you get to know a fellow, know his joys and know his cares, When you've come to understand him and the burdens that he bears, When you've learned the fight he's making and the troubles in his way, Then you find that he is different than you thought him yesterday. You find his faults are trivial and there's not so much to blame In the brother that you jeered at when you only knew his name.
You are quick to see the blemish in the distant neighbour's style, You can point to all his errors and may sneer at him the while, And your prejudices fatten and your hates more violent grow As you talk about the failures of the man you do not know, But when drawn a little closer, and your hands and shoulders touch, You find the traits you hated really don't amount to much.
When you get to know a fellow, know his every mood and whim, You begin to find the texture of the splendid side of him; You begin to understand him, and you cease to scoff and sneer, For with understanding always prejudices disappear. You begin to find his virtues and his faults you cease to tell, For you seldom hate a fellow when you know him very well.
When next you start in sneering and your phrases turn to blame, Know more of him you censure than his business and his name; For it's likely that acquaintance would your prejudice dispel And you'd really come to like him if you knew him very well. When you get to know a fellow and you understand his ways, Then his faults won't really matter, for you'll find a lot to praise.
- Edgar Guest circa 1920
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Post by nitro on Jul 25, 2007 22:06:43 GMT -5
nice poam JH62
MAN IN THE MIRROR
When you get all you want and you struggle for pelf,
and the world makes you king for a day,
then go to the mirror and look at yourself
and see what that man has to say.
For it isn't your mother, your father or wife
whose judgment upon you must pass,
but the man, whose verdict counts most in your life
is the one staring back from the glass.
He's the fellow to please,
never mind all the rest.
For he's with you right to the end,
and you've passed your most difficult test
if the man in the glass is your friend.
You may be like Jack Horner and "chisel" a plum,
And think you're a wonderful guy,
But the man in the glass says you're only a bum
If you can't look him straight in the eye.
You can fool the whole world,
down the highway of years,
and take pats on the back as you pass.
But your final reward will be heartache and tears
if you've cheated the man in the glass.
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