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Post by more reality on Aug 3, 2007 8:08:51 GMT -5
The reality is that right now homeschooling can present a hurdle for children entering schools. The reality is that anything can possibly present a hurdle for any child - no matter what school setting they're in. Yes, I know homeschooling is on the rise. Thank goodness! It's not just future speculation - if anything, it's becoming more and more of a reality. Sorry, but I have an issue with people trying to assert that they know what's best for other people's children. The thinly disguised disdain naysayers actually feel for homeschooling, and their ultimate assertion that most parents are basically too stupid to school their own children, is quite evident. I seriously doubt you really know what you're talking about on this issue. ETA: Some HS'ing stats: www.chec.org/Legislative/News/HomeschoolingStatistics/Index.htmlOne stat I found particularly interesting: Certification
Performance of 4th grade home schoolers where at least one parent was certified - Composite Percentage Score 82
Performance of 4th grade home schoolers where neither parent was certified - Composite Percentage Score 82 ETA#2 In answer to this challenge: Here: "Homeschooled Students Excel in College"www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000017.aspA tidbit from the link (I think this more than blows away some of your concerns about a HS'ing child's ability to function and perform well in higher education settings): A Positive College Experience
The 1996 survey of over 60 colleges and universities in all 50 states conducted by the National Center for Home Education revealed the following anecdotal accounts of homeschoolers in college:
A Harvard University (MA) admissions officer said most of their home-educated students "have done very well. They usually are very motivated in what they do." Results of the SAT and SAT II, an essay, an interview, and a letter of recommendation are the main requirements for home-educated applicants. "[Transcripts are] irrelevant because a transcript is basically a comparison to other students in the school."
In addition to Harvard, prominent schools like Yale (CT), Princeton (NJ), Texas A&M, Brown University (RI), the Carnegie Mellon Institute (PA), the Universities of Arizona, Maryland, Virginia, Hawaii and many others all have flexible transcript criteria, accept parental evaluations, and do not require any accreditation or a General Equivalency Diploma (GED). At Kansas State University and others like Lipscomb University and Middlebury College (VT), transcripts are optional.
In 1996, Birmingham-Southern College (AL) had only one homeschool applicant, but the admissions officer said the college “would be glad to have many more just like him!”
Roughly 50 homeschoolers attended the University of Montana. “The homeschoolers in this state seem to be up-to-date and well-organized. We even have homeschoolers in our honors programs. I know of one student for sure. She is one of our top students,” remarked one admissions official.
Bruce Walker at the University of Delaware said one home-educated student who “had an exceptional SAT score was invited to be considered for a full scholarship!”
“Homeschooling is becoming more and more prevalent,” said Mark Wheeler of Boise State University (ID). “We’re all trying to work together.”
Pennsylvania State University had 20 homeschool applicants in 1995, double the previous year. They prefer a portfolio with as much information as possible, including extra curricular activities that demonstrate leadership. “Homeschoolers show strongly in that,” said the admissions officer for Penn State.
Lewis and Clark College (OR) has a method of application called the “Portfolio Path” where a student can bypass standardized tests and instead be “reviewed on a myriad of things that would point to, and measure academic performance.” The Universities of Minnesota and Mississippi also look at the all-around abilities demonstrated in a homeschooler’s portfolio. University of Kentucky homeschool applicants “have to provide a portfolio of what they have done throughout their high school years” that is “creative and informative.” A UK admissions officer also said, “Our homeschoolers (about 50) tend to be very bright, and have scored very high on standardized tests.”
The Dartmouth College (NH) admissions officer explained, “The applications I’ve come across are outstanding. Homeschoolers have a distinct advantage because of the individualized instruction they have received.”
University of Alaska/Fairbanks has had over 300 home-educated students in the last few years, several of which were in their honors program. The program director, Mary Dicicco commented, “They have been wonderful students on the whole!”
Staff from Geneva College (PA) and Belhaven College (MS) are actively recruiting homeschoolers by going to homeschool conferences and book fairs to talk to parents and students about admissions.
“Homeschoolers have to work harder thereby increasing student productivity,” Jeff Lantis said of the 75-90 homeschoolers at Hillsdale College (MI). “Homeschoolers are consistently among our top students, in fact homeschoolers have won our distinct Honors Program the last three years in a row. We tend to look very favorably upon homeschoolers applying to our college.”
USA TODAY reported on October 28, 1996, that the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill’s dean of admissions, James Walters, has enrolled about 20 home-educated students, all of which “are performing above average academically.”
A letter sent in 1991 to homeschool leaders in Massachusetts from Thomas M. Rajala, Director of Admissions at Boston University is another example of the recognition institutions of higher learning are showing homeschoolers’ academic achievements:
Boston University welcomes applications from homeschooled students. We believe students educated at home possess the passion for knowledge, the independence, and the self-reliance that enable them to excel in our intellectually challenging programs of study.
Wheaton College (IL) Director of Admissions Dan Crabtree says that “Nearly 10 percent of our current freshmen were homeschooled at one point, and about a dozen were homeschooled through high school.” Wheaton’s 1999-2000 freshman class had 104 (out of 550) students who had been homeschooled at least one year.
The following comment, made by Jon Reider, Stanford’s senior associate director of admissions concerning the success of homeschoolers, was reported in a recent article in the Wall Street Journal: “Homeschoolers bring certain skills – motivation, curiosity, the capacity to be responsible for their education – that high schools don’t induce very well.”3
A report on the accomplishments of homeschool students has been published in Brown University's (RI) January/February, 2002, edition of its alumni magazine. In an article titled, "Homeschooling Comes of Age," Dean Joyce Reed states, "Homeschoolers are the epitome of Brown students. They are self-directed, they take risks, and they don't back off."
In 2002, an employee of Ball State University reported that "eighty percent of first time freshman who were homeschooled were admitted to one of our upper levels of admission, with 67% being admitted to Honors College—our highest level of admission. They tend to be very involved socially on campus, especially in groups relating to their academic major and in student religious groups."
During a fall 2004 interview, Phil Caffrey, Iowa State University's (ISU) director of admissions, stated that "homeschool students, on average, have higher grade-point averages" than the student body as a whole. Because of this, Caffrey stated that ISU is considering actively recruiting homeschool students at college fairs. 4 ETA #3: That's probably because you're not taking into account that homeschool supporters are usually defending against clueless people who think they know the best path for someone else . That's not being rabid; it's called not allowing an outsider attempt to discern what's best for your own child.
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Post by homeschooling on Aug 3, 2007 9:35:56 GMT -5
I have a close friend who is a F&W. She homeschools her daughter. The mom gets totally harrassed by the workers for choosing to homeschool their daughter. Other's in the group really harrass her for her choice to homeschool. Some people in this group are so hostile to those who don't go the status quo. The daughter used to be public schooled and had many horrible, degrading experiences. She has just blossomed in home schooling. We have a very wonderful homeschool community and the kids are so kind and caring to one another. This has helped this girl to be healed from the emotional scars that were inflicted during her public school years. It's so sad that the F&W aren't happy that this girl is flourishing - they just put negative pressure for her to be conformed to their wishes. Shouldn't they be spending their time being concerned for those children who's parents are neglecting them or for the children who are in harm's way? Hi, My wife and I also homeschool- as do many other professing families in the area in which I live. The workers have never "harassed" us about homeschooling- although many relatives have- professing and non-professing. The main reason for the "harassment" (I don't consider it "harassment" but rather concern) from our relatives is because homeschooling isn't conventional and they don't understand it. People fear what they don't understand. However, my kids have flourished- and as a result other families around us have started to homeschool their kids as well. My parents and other relatives have also agreed that it is working out well for us. Our kids are doing great- and I am blessed to have a wife that can be as patient and organized as she is.
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Post by more reality on Aug 3, 2007 11:54:04 GMT -5
The reality is that anything can possibly present a hurdle for any child - no matter what school setting they're in. Of course. But in all of the colleges mentioned the HS children had to overcome additional hurdles that PS children did not have to face. I believe you seriously doubt that you can consider anything anyone with a different point of view than you could possibly have a valid point. You counter the citations from home schooling sites with the idea that in the future the children will not have as difficult a time when they apply to college. Great. But today, according to the people who control the admissions, they do. A homeschooling site publishing very positive results. How many homeschooled children were tested? One of the problems, especially with this study, is that in CO the reporting is not mandatory nor consistent. Since there is no clue given as to what group was tested (on either side) the statistics raise more questions than they answer. It is great that the children are doing well. Is 82% good? Overall, what percentile would that place these 4th graders in? It is great that colleges are making changes to make it easier for homeschooled students. Two things jump out regarding the information: First they were all anecdotal accounts. It is like someone saying that they took echinacea and it cured their cold but controlled research doesn't support their claim. All of the references mention that the some number of homeschooled students did well. What about the rest? There is also the problem of determining the success rate of homeschooling when nothing is known about the dropout rate or even the total number of students involved. The data available is like looking at the graduating class of a high school and saying that 100% of that group passed. Adding to the complexity - some school systems classify students who drop out as moving to homeschooling. By doing this the student is not counted as a dropout and, since there are many states without mandated homeschooling reporting, the student never shows up anywhere. On the other hand, students who do drop out of homeschooling are frequently put back into the public system. There is no record to show that the homeschooling system failed in providing education for that student and it also loads the public schools with students with a higher probability of dropping out. There are anecdotal accounts of successes but there are no reported failures. There are no stories of the 5th graders who are reading below grade level. Is this because there are no drop outs? First I am a supporter of parent's involvement with their children's education. I worked with our public school system and taught classes on the average of 1 a month. I had taught at a private school for 4 years and had a number of topics that I had the knowledge and materials to provide for the students. In my case, the public the school system was excellent and both children reported that their first year in college was easier than high school. Had we had a low quality school system to deal with, enrolling in a nearby charter school would have been an option.
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Post by Try again on Aug 3, 2007 12:02:17 GMT -5
Academic StatisticsThe average homeschool 8th grade student performs four grade levels above the national average (Rudner study). One in four homeschool students (24.5%) are enrolled one or more grades above age level. Students who have been home schooled their entire lives have the highest scholastic achievement. In every subject and at every grade level of the ITBS and TAP batteries, homeschool students scored significantly higher than their counterparts in public and private schools. You realize that youe statistics comes from a state (CO) where they do not even know hoe many people are being home schooled. Also, CO is the only state where the reported number of homeschooled students fell by 18% in a single year. The homeschooled students that were tested did better than the average of all of the public school students. This assumes that you value a parents time at $0. At even $7 per hour for a 5 hours day 180 days of the year - there is a cost of $6,300. Add in the heating/cooling cost of the place where the homeschooling os done and you begin to get the true cost. I noticed this as well. Is there any data to back up this claim? I could not locate it.
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Post by no name on Aug 3, 2007 15:18:28 GMT -5
But in all of the colleges mentioned the HS children had to overcome additional hurdles that PS children did not have to face. Hold up. First, the argument against homeschooling on this thread started out with the bogus socialization claim. When that was proven to be false, then the "college admission problem" was asserted - and once again proven to be not nearly the problem that it was initially made out to be. Go back and read through the countless quotes and facts I posted from college admission directors at numerous higher-level education institutions across the country and you should have your fears assuaged (if your fears are actually real, rather than ultimately based on the issue of parental control over a child's education). Yes, I'm cynical. I don't think that most homeschool naysayers are truthfully concerned about a child's educational welfare as a result of homeschool. I think it's all about irritation at lack of governmental control. Huh? This sentence makes little sense. Actually, according to the people who control admissions at many/most of those colleges, they really don't - not to the extreme you make it out to be. This is the base of your argument? With regard to mandatory testing in various states, there is no proof that students in states with mandatory testing do any better than states where testing is not required. No, not really. It certainly places them higher than their public-school counterparts! Are you serious about that? Because what I've detected behind all the homeschool naysaying is, ultimately, a disagreement with 100% parental involvement/control over their child's education. Well, I do believe that a challenge was put out there for those opposed to homeschooling to please furnish the studies that prove beyond all doubt that homeschooling has been a monumental failure. There are no such studies because homeschooling has actually proven to be successful as a whole. A specious argument at best. Did you actually look for it? A summary of Dr. Brian Ray's study www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp#xThe Rudner study: epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v7n8/A more user-friendly summarization: www.hslda.org/docs/study/ray1997/02.aspThere's a ton of information in both studies that should satisfy any "concern" you have about other children's educational welfare while being schooled at home. Plus, some HS myths and facts: www.early-years-homeschool.com/homeschool-myths.htmlOf course, HS'ing nay-sayers here may attempt yet another poo-pooing of all the data that effectively refutes their "concerns". But again, show us a study that proves homeschooling has been a colossal failure. You can't, because it hasn't been. Many of our public school systems on the other hand . . . . . ETA: From the HS myths and facts link - here's an interesting and concise way to sum up the reasons for opposition to HS: Why all these homeschool myths ?
There seem to be several possible reasons for the circulation of mis-information about homeschooling that leads to homeschool myths:
- Many teachers and conventional educators do not do their own research on homeschooling or educational alternatives.
- Many people are afraid of educational alternatives that they are not familiar with (i.e. it is easier to repeat mis-information or homeschool myths heard from others than it is to extend the energy to discover the facts for ones self).
- Many people feel that it is un-democratic not to put children into institutional education programs, claiming that it is too difficult to make sure all Americans maintain the same social norms when some children are homeschooled. Ironically, this is actually a very un-democratic concern.
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Post by MacnCheese on Aug 3, 2007 15:34:23 GMT -5
in all of the colleges mentioned the HS children had to overcome additional hurdles that PS children did not have to face. I'm wondering why the opposite wouldn't be true as well: PS children have to overcome additional hurdles that HS children don't have to face.Different background = Different experiences = Different "culture shock" adjustments that need to be made. Have there been any studies on this?Instead of depending on random opinions from admissions people, have any studies been done on the subject? Or are you both just repeating the hear-say that backs up your position?I am so glad you bring this up. We have a lot in common here. I too am looking for well-designed, well-executed, reliable, thorough, and true studies on the subject of home schooling. You're pushing the homeschool supporters for such a study to back them up. I'm sure you have such a study that backs you up on the anti-homeschool side. Can you share it with us?(I really have an appreciation for people who have good studies to back up their opinions! Thanks.) Oh wow Sir, we are on the same page here. To be fair though, replies #36, #39, and #50 fit this discription also. Again to be fair, the same question should be asked about public school students. How many do well? What about the rest?Agreed. What data are you using to arrive at your conclusions in this area?This is hardly fair to the homeschooling statistics. Wouldn't you agree?Surely you don't mean to say that a significan percentage of the public schools problem students are inherited from home school! Is this what you are implying?What studies do you have to support this?Can't we assume that 97% success means 3% failure? Because the success rates are being reported doesn't mean they have to explicitely state the failure rate. Same with public schools when they provide a dropout rate we just assume the rest didn't drop out. Is something wrong with this assumption?As you've pointed out already, this type of account is anecdotal so it doesn't really mean anything. I understand it means something to you though. If you have a problem with other peoples anecdotes, do you want yours to be taken seriously?Please provide the studies you are basing your positions on. I am anxious to review them myself. Can you do this? Thanks.
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Post by MacnCheese on Aug 3, 2007 15:37:08 GMT -5
Academic StatisticsThe average homeschool 8th grade student performs four grade levels above the national average (Rudner study). One in four homeschool students (24.5%) are enrolled one or more grades above age level. Students who have been home schooled their entire lives have the highest scholastic achievement. In every subject and at every grade level of the ITBS and TAP batteries, homeschool students scored significantly higher than their counterparts in public and private schools. You realize that youe statistics comes from a state (CO) where they do not even know hoe many people are being home schooled. Also, CO is the only state where the reported number of homeschooled students fell by 18% in a single year. The homeschooled students that were tested did better than the average of all of the public school students. This assumes that you value a parents time at $0. At even $7 per hour for a 5 hours day 180 days of the year - there is a cost of $6,300. Add in the heating/cooling cost of the place where the homeschooling os done and you begin to get the true cost. I noticed this as well. Is there any data to back up this claim? I could not locate it. To the author of the above post (reply #60): I responded to reply #59 which I think was yours too. I'm really looking forward to your response. For your convenience I've bolded my questions. My response to the above post (reply #60) is basically the same as to reply #59 since the points are pretty much repeated. Thank you.
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Post by 2 the naysayers on Aug 3, 2007 19:45:31 GMT -5
That is an excellent point.
The homeschool advocates here have provided a number of studies to back up their claims regarding the effective and healthy nature of what they believe in.
The homeschool opponents have done nothing but whine, belly-ache, moan, belittle, criticize, and nit-pick at the provided studies.
Well I say enough is enough.
For those of you who are so certain that homeschooling is some modern evil: Prove it. Show us the studies that you hold in such high esteem. Don't forget to be fair; Hold the studies that back up your viewpoint to the same standard that you hold the studies that you have been so critical of.
We're waiting.
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Post by Another Attempt on Aug 4, 2007 1:05:10 GMT -5
Hold up. First, the argument against homeschooling on this thread started out with the bogus socialization claim. The question of socialization was raised. You consider it a bogus claim yet admit that specific steps must be taken to provide a solution. I don't believe anyone ever said that there were not solutions. If it was not an issue why are there solutions? You are putting forth the idea that is there is a solution thyat there is not an issue. The very fact that the admissions people provide ways for the homeschooled to overcome the issues point out the fact that home schooling does present issues that need to be addressed. I could supose the same thing - that homeschoolers concern is about governmental control and the fact that parents are concerned that their children might be taught ideas that they do not agree with. I did not make it out fo be extreme. I simply said that the admission people said that for homeschooled students there were hurdles that had to be cleared that were not present for non-homeschooled students. I said mandatory reporting. It had nothing to do with the mandatory testing. When you say that homeschooled students test as xx%, it does not represent all home schooled students. Only those who took the test. When you say public school students scored yy%, it is the result of all PS students, not just those motivated to take the test. The issue I was raising was a statistical one. In one group all students are required to be tested and in the other the testing is not required. It places the students that were selected to take the test above the average of all public school students. The problem is that there is no way to know how many of the people dropped out of the homeschooling program because record keeping in most states is not required. This depends on the educational goals of the parents for their children. I don't recall anyone asking for any such a study. Again, the problem with all the studies is that they compare those in the homestudy group who chose to be in the study with the entire group of PS students. You are kidding. You are comparing cost but valuing the home schooling teacher's time at $0? That would be like comparing the cost of public vs. private transportation and not adding in the cost of fuel on one side or the other. This is a single paragraph that does not present the data nor explain the selection criteria for the homeschooling group. I looked at it - this is not data. This is one that I did not notice but it is a well designed report and peer reviewed. It also acknowledges the shortcomings of the study with the following statement: Because this was not a controlled experiment, the study does not demonstrate that home schooling is superior to public or private schools and the results must be interpreted with caution.This study starts out acknowledging that there is a 10% margin of error. In this study participation was voluntary so it included only the homeschooling families that were motivated to take part while comparing this self-selected group to the entire public school group. Again, the data for HS is based on self-selected responders. Public schools are required by law to report on their entire student base and this data is publicly available. The difference is that public schools are required to include the failures while these are vastly under reported in the HS setting.
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Post by no name on Aug 4, 2007 1:20:33 GMT -5
Hold up. First, the argument against homeschooling on this thread started out with the bogus socialization claim. The question of socialization was raised. You consider it a bogus claim yet admit that specific steps must be taken to provide a solution. I don't believe anyone ever said that there were not solutions. If it was not an issue why are there solutions? You are putting forth the idea that is there is a solution thyat there is not an issue. The very fact that the admissions people provide ways for the homeschooled to overcome the issues point out the fact that home schooling does present issues that need to be addressed. I could supose the same thing - that homeschoolers concern is about governmental control and the fact that parents are concerned that their children might be taught ideas that they do not agree with. I did not make it out fo be extreme. I simply said that the admission people said that for homeschooled students there were hurdles that had to be cleared that were not present for non-homeschooled students. I said mandatory reporting. It had nothing to do with the mandatory testing. When you say that homeschooled students test as xx%, it does not represent all home schooled students. Only those who took the test. When you say public school students scored yy%, it is the result of all PS students, not just those motivated to take the test. The issue I was raising was a statistical one. In one group all students are required to be tested and in the other the testing is not required. It places the students that were selected to take the test above the average of all public school students. The problem is that there is no way to know how many of the people dropped out of the homeschooling program because record keeping in most states is not required. This depends on the educational goals of the parents for their children. I don't recall anyone asking for any such a study. Again, the problem with all the studies is that they compare those in the homestudy group who chose to be in the study with the entire group of PS students. You are kidding. You are comparing cost but valuing the home schooling teacher's time at $0? That would be like comparing the cost of public vs. private transportation and not adding in the cost of fuel on one side or the other. This is a single paragraph that does not present the data nor explain the selection criteria for the homeschooling group. I looked at it - this is not data. This is one that I did not notice but it is a well designed report and peer reviewed. It also acknowledges the shortcomings of the study with the following statement: Because this was not a controlled experiment, the study does not demonstrate that home schooling is superior to public or private schools and the results must be interpreted with caution.This study starts out acknowledging that there is a 10% margin of error. In this study participation was voluntary so it included only the homeschooling families that were motivated to take part while comparing this self-selected group to the entire public school group. Again, the data for HS is based on self-selected responders. Public schools are required by law to report on their entire student base and this data is publicly available. The difference is that public schools are required to include the failures while these are vastly under reported in the HS setting. Your attempt still falls short - and your responses prove your lack of knowledge in this subject. Again, provide us with the studies that demonstrate homeschooling is a failure. Like another poster stated: We're waiting.
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Post by Just reality on Aug 4, 2007 2:03:32 GMT -5
in all of the colleges mentioned the HS children had to overcome additional hurdles that PS children did not have to face. I'm wondering why the opposite wouldn't be true as well: PS children have to overcome additional hurdles that HS children don't have to face.Different background = Different experiences = Different "culture shock" adjustments that need to be made. Have there been any studies on this?My position for evaluating the public schools in my city? Or my position on choosing a charter school had the public school not been as good as it was? I visited the schools, observed the classrooms, and looked up the school system rating. My position is that with parental involvement is crucial for children to get a good education.
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Post by Once again on Aug 4, 2007 2:39:22 GMT -5
Your attempt still falls short - and your responses prove your lack of knowledge in this subject. My lack of knowledge. I state that we cannot know the success rate of HS because of the lack of mandated reporting. You twist that and respond with some information about mandated testing. The success rate of HS cannot be measured unless you know how many people are being home schooled. I have no desire to prove HS is a failure and do not think it is. However, I do not think you can determine if it is a success until there is some way to know not only the people who do succeed but those who fail. You cannot judge success because some limited number of students test well. You have no idea of what the scores would be if the entire population of HS students had to take the test, as the PS students do. Because someone questions the data regarding the success of HS does not mean that there is some hunt to prove it is a failure. The pro-HS have been quoting success rates that reflect only a the results of a self-selected group. There is no way to determine success rates since there is no way to know the total population of HS students. People questioning the validity of a process and looking at the data presented does not mean they are looking to point out that the process is a failure. Until a study can be done that doesn't have to be prefaced with a disclaimer like: Because this was not a controlled experiment, the study does not demonstrate that home schooling is superior to public or private schools and the results must be interpreted with caution. HS will have an uphill battle to gain acceptance.
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Two can play that game
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Post by Two can play that game on Aug 4, 2007 7:16:45 GMT -5
The question of socialization was raised. You consider it a bogus claim yet admit that specific steps must be taken to provide a solution. I don't believe anyone ever said that there were not solutions. If it was not an issue why are there solutions? Thanks for setting the standard. Issues with Public Schooling: Some students simply don't take school seriously. Some teachers simply don't take school seriously. Some students fail to take an interest in some subjects. Some teachers fail to take an interest in some subjects. Some students fail to understand some subjects. Some teachers fail to understand the subjects they teach. Some students fail to connect with the teacher. Some teachers fail to connect with the student. Some students fail to meet minimum academic requirements but pass/graduate anyway. Some teachers fail to meet minimum academic requirements but teach anyway. Some students don't speak English well enough to effectively learn. Some teachers don't speak English well enough to effectively teach. Some students spend to much time focusing on non-academic activities (sports, etc.) Some teachers spend to much time focusing on non-academic activities (sports, etc.) Some students struggle with alcoholism during school-time. Some teachers struggle with alcoholism during school-time. Some students buy/sell/use illegal drugs in school. Some teachers buy/sell/use illegal drugs in school. Some students come to school for the sole purpose of finding a sexual partner. Some teachers come to school for the sole purpose of finding a sexual partner. Some students have a sexual relationship with their teacher. Some teachers have a sexual relationship with their student(s). Some students forcibly sexually assault other students. Some teachers forcibly sexually assault other students. Some students bring guns or other weapons to school. Some teachers bring guns or other weapons to school. Some students learn any of the above behaviors from other students and/or teachers. Some students end up mentally scarred for life as a result of many of the above. Some students end up dead as a result of many of the above.
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Post by Amen on Aug 4, 2007 7:21:15 GMT -5
<A whole bunch of hot air snipped.> ...then... Your attempt still falls short - and your responses prove your lack of knowledge in this subject. Again, provide us with the studies that demonstrate homeschooling is a failure. Like another poster stated: We're waiting. I agree.
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Post by to MacnCheese on Aug 4, 2007 7:29:06 GMT -5
<Dodging and ducking of no less than 12 questions snipped.> MacnCheese, you're not going to get a straight answer from this poster. Sorry, but anecdotes and wishful thinking are all some people have.
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shushy
Royal Member
Warning
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Posts: 8,009
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Post by shushy on Aug 4, 2007 7:49:25 GMT -5
You cant have wisdom with out knowledge.
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Post by Issues raised on Aug 4, 2007 9:18:23 GMT -5
The question of socialization was raised. You consider it a bogus claim yet admit that specific steps must be taken to provide a solution. I don't believe anyone ever said that there were not solutions. If it was not an issue why are there solutions? Thanks for setting the standard. Issues with Public Schooling: Some students simply don't take school seriously. Some teachers simply don't take school seriously. Some students fail to take an interest in some subjects. Some teachers fail to take an interest in some subjects. Some students fail to understand some subjects. Some teachers fail to understand the subjects they teach. Some students fail to connect with the teacher. Some teachers fail to connect with the student. Some students fail to meet minimum academic requirements but pass/graduate anyway. Some teachers fail to meet minimum academic requirements but teach anyway. Some students don't speak English well enough to effectively learn. Some teachers don't speak English well enough to effectively teach. Some students spend to much time focusing on non-academic activities (sports, etc.) Some teachers spend to much time focusing on non-academic activities (sports, etc.) Some students struggle with alcoholism during school-time. Some teachers struggle with alcoholism during school-time. Some students buy/sell/use illegal drugs in school. Some teachers buy/sell/use illegal drugs in school. Some students come to school for the sole purpose of finding a sexual partner. Some teachers come to school for the sole purpose of finding a sexual partner. Some students have a sexual relationship with their teacher. Some teachers have a sexual relationship with their student(s). Some students forcibly sexually assault other students. Some teachers forcibly sexually assault other students. Some students bring guns or other weapons to school. Some teachers bring guns or other weapons to school. Some students learn any of the above behaviors from other students and/or teachers. Some students end up mentally scarred for life as a result of many of the above. Some students end up dead as a result of many of the above. These are all issues with public schools and some with society in general. Some of them are also issues found in any learning environment. The difference is that these are admitted to be issues and steps have to be taken to overcome them. When socialization was mentioned as an issue with homeschooling there was flat denial and shouts of it not being an issue. I was wondering what would a non-forcible sexual assault be?
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Post by Typical response on Aug 4, 2007 9:32:57 GMT -5
<Dodging and ducking of no less than 12 questions snipped.> MacnCheese, you're not going to get a straight answer from this poster. Sorry, but anecdotes and wishful thinking are all some people have. I answered the questions that could be answered. Some were impossible to answer. For example there was the 97% comment. There was no success rate ever published. There was a question about how many of the PS students do well and what about the rest of them. The data is out there for PS students. Both the successes and the failures. Don't be lazy and claim the questions were not answered because you are too lazy to look them up. If there were questions I missed - it was not intentional.
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Post by no name on Aug 4, 2007 9:53:19 GMT -5
I have no desire to prove HS is a failure and do not think it is. That's funny - this isn't necessarily the way you're coming across. But you see - that's all this thread has turned into now - starting from page one, the nay-saying began. So yes, I think that in large part you (general you - aka the HS'ing nay-sayers) are looking to point out that it is a failure.
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Post by Understandable on Aug 4, 2007 10:45:37 GMT -5
But you see - that's all this thread has turned into now - starting from page one, the nay-saying began. So yes, I think that in large part you (general you - aka the HS'ing nay-sayers) are looking to point out that it is a failure. I don't think it has except from our KS friend who is so defensive that no matter what anyone says they complain. If you do not answer question with the answers they expect/want you are dodging. I don't mind the name calling and rudeness but it adds little to the discussion. HS has been on the defensive for so long that it is difficult to change that stance. When it is even suggested that there is a lack of data to show the level of success it is viewed as trying to say HS is a failure. I think the root of the problem is in the fact that for years home schooling was associated with the fringe groups. Again I see the problem at one of available data. Public schools are forced to keep and publish data about all their students. As a result the average is less than wonderful and all og the dirty laundry is there for all to see and exploit. From the HS side there is no complete data available. Even the best research done to date on HS has to carry a disclaimer, not only in the body of the text but in the summary as well. That shows two things - it is a serious piece of work and the writers and reviewers consider it as such but at the same time they can see the problems with the data gathering methodology and the inferences that can be drawn from it. This is one area where mandated reporting would help.
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Post by no name on Aug 4, 2007 11:01:32 GMT -5
How was everyone was educated before public schools came along? Most likely much better than many kids are today! I don't buy into assertions that most of our population was a bunch of illiterate hicks before the introduction of mandatory public schooling. If public schooling was so great, we wouldn't have the problem with education and literacy that are quite common today. In fact, arguments have been made that literacy rates overall have suffered due to - among other things - the introduction of mandatory government schooling. I think the root of the problem is in the fact that for years home schooling was associated with the fringe groups. Yes, long ago (well, back in the 70s), when modern Homeschooling began its growth it was often viewed as a fringe thing. Today's homeschoolers have it much, much easier than our predecessors (the pioneers from the 70s) in that regard. It has grown at a phenomenal rate over the past few decades and is more widely accepted and understood. I do perceive that there are still nay-sayers who automatically take a stance on HS'ing without fully researching the issue. I also hold to the argument that HS'ing children do not face the obstacles that many people erroneously assume.
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