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Post by to Sad Sack on Jul 31, 2007 21:38:58 GMT -5
I presented material from a home schooling site that was pointing out some of the possible pitfalls of home school. The knee-jerk response to the post was, in my opinion, uncalled for. Oh for crying out loud! Get over yourself already! Oh, and it wasn't a knee-jerk response. If you're going to get hung up on the minority of children with problems, let's also discuss the kids in public school who bring guns to school and blow away their teachers and classmates, who learn how to manufacture their own drugs, who learn how much fun drugs are to use, who come home to show their younger siblings the fun, new "touching game" they learned from one of their disturbed classmates, and who come home pregnant before they're even teenagers. Contrary to your delusions, most home schooling parents DO NOT wait until their children are grown to introduce them into social situations. Your view of the world is indeed disturbing. To be properly socialized, a child does not have to be immersed in an environment where he/she is surrounded by individuals his/her own age for 7 hours a day. In fact, some might suggest that it is more realistic and appropriate that, for socialization purposes, a child be regularly surrounded by all ages rather than some unnatural grouping of individuals of common chronological age. Don't forget that, as has already been said here, school is for learning, and there is way way way way way way way more to learning than socialization. I've seen the site before. They cover both the pros and cons. There is no shortage of sites like this on the internet. Nah, you posted it because you are to narrow minded to think that home schooling might be a better choice for some who choose to exercise their freedom to do what is best for their children. You take it personally that someone has chosen something different than you have. Well to bad. Ah, so now you're an expert on me. Great! No. You are wrong. I never said this or anything like it. And who, may I ask, is advocating that children be isolated from their peers? Not homeschooling parents, that's for sure. Read the posts here. Note especially the activities in which homeschooling parents involve their children. Again, I don't know who you think is so sheltered. Obviously, you believe home schooling parents lock their kids in the basement until their 16. You have a sick, narrow view of the world. Well that's cherry-picking what you can read in this thread. All the home schoolers I know do both. Some activities are a family event, some are not. Then start a thread and call it "Homeschooling but not really". Give me a break. I know someone who "mistakingly" calls "public schools" by another name: "adolescent day-care". Should I start discussing day-care problems and associate them with public schools? Some home schoolers do this in a cooperative fashion to capitalize on academic specialty areas such as calculus, chemistry, etc. Some do it more than others. Some don't do it at all. Your complaint was that these "groups" are not broad enough to expose children to a variety of viewpoints. This is nuts. A math teacher is supposed to teach math, not fill his/her students with his/her own philosophical or political viewpoints. If I send my kids to a cooperative teacher to learn calculus, I want them learning calculus, not what Bill and Monica did with a cigar. I think your real beef is that you don't like the idea of a parent having control over the education of their own child. That's really it isn't it? You want the state to control what children learn. Oh I see, so public school is better because it ensures kids learn early and learn often everything there is to know (and then some) about sex. And you also think home-schooled parents won't teach their children about sex. Your stand on this issue (though outrageous and hilarious, not to mention goofy) is duly noted. Yes, because it helps them ease into it.
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Post by to Sad Sack on Jul 31, 2007 21:42:28 GMT -5
<lots of knee-jerking snipped> By the way, I forgot something. I normally shy away from giving advice on things like this, but I've seen enough that I feel it's fairly safe to do here... "Saddened", please DO NOT home school your kids.
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Post by Adopt em out on Jul 31, 2007 23:13:21 GMT -5
Yes, you may want to consider adopting them to a loving family who is educated enough to home-school them.
You can visit the men in white coats for a season.
=Adopt'em out
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Aug 1, 2007 9:57:43 GMT -5
One point I'd like to make is that homeschooling is not for everyone. Secondly, there are people who would not serve their children well if they decided to homeschool.
There are people out there who confine their children to their home and their select beliefs in order to create robot clones.... and that is very disturbing. However, that is not the motivation of most people who choose to homeschool.
I can tell you horror stories of public schools, just as others could tell me horror stories of homeschools.
Much of my socialization in the last years of public schools (before I grew weary and was moved to leave and begged my mom to get me into some sort of homeschooling program) was sexual harrassment and assault. It was not pleasant, and it is not something I want my daughter to go through... or my sons to think is okay.
But, my whole decision to homeschool has not been based on this alone. Something that truly bugs me about public schools (and has always, even when I was in school) is that often the individual is overlooked. Students have to follow a certain formula, even if it's not how they learn best, and if they have a problem with this certain form of learning they are stamped as impaired.
For those who are afraid to teach the tougher subjects, that's what homeschool groups and computer software is for. Someone else, or a computer program, can help your children with biology, math, and other subjects you feel you cannot help them with.
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Aug 1, 2007 10:09:23 GMT -5
I just read the last few posts.... and wanted to add this:
Most homeschoolers do not have trouble joining society. Those in public schools do.
Why? Because many children in public schools don't know how to take responsibility for their education. Homeschoolers who go to college thrive for the most part, whereas many public schoolers go to college and waste the money their parents put into it. (You can see this in my own family, even in my brother, who was public schooled, and myself, who switched to homeschool.)
Many public schoolers have trouble working with people of all ages. Homeschoolers usually don't have that problem because they haven't been stuck in a class year after year of peers their age, but rather have interacted with people of all ages within the community.
Homeschoolers also learn how to take learning outside of the classroom and apply it to the real world, because these days, that's how most parents choose to educate their children- by applying it directly, instead of teaching it from a book and then hoping they'll use the knowledge when they need to.
I feel that no one can be more passionate about our children's education than US.... because teachers see our children for a year and then our children are off to a different teacher. Plus, they have a whole class of children to be concerned with, not just our own. Think about highschool teachers. They usually have about 20 students per class, and in my HS growing up, the teachers usually had about 6 classes to teach (days rotated, so they'd have 3 classes, and one period off each day). That's 120 children... or more, to keep up with. How can they help our child reach their true learning potential if they are THAT busy?
Now, again, I state... "homeschool" is not for everyone, but EVERYONE should pay attention to the schooling their child receives. Everyone should have a little homeschooling going on in their home, even if they have a public/privately schooled child.
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cat
Junior Member
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Post by cat on Aug 1, 2007 17:56:50 GMT -5
I just read the last few posts.... and wanted to add this: Most homeschoolers do not have trouble joining society. Those in public schools do. Why? Because many children in public schools don't know how to take responsibility for their education. Homeschoolers who go to college thrive for the most part, whereas many public schoolers go to college and waste the money their parents put into it. (You can see this in my own family, even in my brother, who was public schooled, and myself, who switched to homeschool.) Many public schoolers have trouble working with people of all ages. Homeschoolers usually don't have that problem because they haven't been stuck in a class year after year of peers their age, but rather have interacted with people of all ages within the community. Homeschoolers also learn how to take learning outside of the classroom and apply it to the real world, because these days, that's how most parents choose to educate their children- by applying it directly, instead of teaching it from a book and then hoping they'll use the knowledge when they need to. I feel that no one can be more passionate about our children's education than US.... because teachers see our children for a year and then our children are off to a different teacher. Plus, they have a whole class of children to be concerned with, not just our own. Think about highschool teachers. They usually have about 20 students per class, and in my HS growing up, the teachers usually had about 6 classes to teach (days rotated, so they'd have 3 classes, and one period off each day). That's 120 children... or more, to keep up with. How can they help our child reach their true learning potential if they are THAT busy? Now, again, I state... "homeschool" is not for everyone, but EVERYONE should pay attention to the schooling their child receives. Everyone should have a little homeschooling going on in their home, even if they have a public/privately schooled child.Your last statement is a very wise one. I would like to thank you all for answering. I originally started homeschooling because I wanted my kids to love learning. And to be able read the great books that are out there. Not what the publishing companies pay the schools to give the kids. Do you have any idea how much money publishing companies give schools? Not only that they give them free lesson plans and books. And not only publishing companies...its all kinds of companies who want to push their political agenda. Another reason I wanted to homeschool was because my husband was in the military. My kids got to see him when his boat pulled in, they got to see him when his boat got underway. They were able to spend incredible amounts of time with him when he was able to be home. Talk about being able to adjust to real life...live a military one You can certainly know where priorities lie. Christ's Blessings cat
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Post by no name on Aug 1, 2007 18:14:51 GMT -5
Another reason I wanted to homeschool was because my husband was in the military. My kids got to see him when his boat pulled in, they got to see him when his boat got underway. They were able to spend incredible amounts of time with him when he was able to be home. Talk about being able to adjust to real life...live a military one You can certainly know where priorities lie. Christ's Blessings cat That is truly awesome, cat. Homeschooling allows for such freedoms - your children must truly appreciate that they can spend that time with their father. Outside schooling would make such a thing more difficult. withopeneyes, I appreciate all your posts on this matter.
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 1, 2007 18:20:45 GMT -5
[Someone Wrote] I homeschool my children and being able to teach religion was one of the many reasons for my decision. just out of curiosity, does any one know how prevelant homeschooling is in the F&W's?
I am a teacher in a public school. I take a dim view of homeschooling and firmly believe that the vast majority of children should be in either a public or private schooling institution, including professing children.
It is my view that while homeschooling may be appropriate for some children due to certain issues, it has a number of significant drawbacks.
Knowledge of Curriculum Theory It took me four years in a college to understand the processes of curriculum, and an additional period of study for my Masters Degree to appreciate the variety of curricula and the ways in which it may be delivered.
I do not believe the average parent can adequately prepare their children for examinations, matriculation, and university entrance tests without the knowledge of the processes behind the operation of curricula.
Socialisation Schools can be rough places, and children learn to thicken their skins. In my experience, homeschooled children are less able to navigate the ups and downs of social life. Most that I have met simply stand mute, unable to communicate.
Knowledge The average parent cannot possess the same extent of knowledge as possessed by half-a-dozen professionals.
Career Most homeschooled kids I know do not enter university. They wind up in the unskilled professions, at dead-end jobs. How can they enter a university without a tertiary examination score? And how can they do well in such tests without knowledge?
Don't risk it folks. Give your kids the best start to life, and sent them to a good, ol' fashioned government school.
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Post by no name on Aug 1, 2007 18:25:39 GMT -5
[Someone Wrote] I homeschool my children and being able to teach religion was one of the many reasons for my decision. just out of curiosity, does any one know how prevelant homeschooling is in the F&W's?I am a teacher in a public school. I take a dim view of homeschooling and firmly believe that the vast majority of children should be in either a public or private schooling institution, including professing children. It is my view that while homeschooling may be appropriate for some children due to certain issues, it has a number of significant drawbacks. Knowledge of Curriculum TheoryIt took me four years in a college to understand the processes of curriculum, and an additional period of study for my Masters Degree to appreciate the variety of curricula and the ways in which it may be delivered. I do not believe the average parent can adequately prepare their children for examinations, matriculation, and university entrance tests without the knowledge of the processes behind the operation of curricula. SocialisationSchools can be rough places, and children learn to thicken their skins. In my experience, homeschooled children are less able to navigate the ups and downs of social life. Most that I have met simply stand mute, unable to communicate. KnowledgeThe average parent cannot possess the same extent of knowledge as possessed by half-a-dozen professionals. CareerMost homeschooled kids I know do not enter university. They wind up in the unskilled professions, at dead-end jobs. How can they enter a university without a tertiary examination score? And how can they do well in such tests without knowledge? Don't risk it folks. Give your kids the best start to life, and sent them to a good, ol' fashioned government school. I'm sorry - is this post for real?
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Post by Not True on Aug 1, 2007 19:17:11 GMT -5
I originally started homeschooling because I wanted my kids to love learning. And to be able read the great books that are out there. Not what the publishing companies pay the schools to give the kids. Do you have any idea how much money publishing companies give schools? Not only that they give them free lesson plans and books. And not only publishing companies...its all kinds of companies who want to push their political agenda. No, I don't have any data on the amount of money publishing companies give schools to use their books. Do you have any data to share? Most books do come with sample lesson plans as well as a teachers "answer" book. I have taught in both public and private schools and in all cases I, as the teacher, had the ability to pick and choose the text that I wished to use in my classes. I am wondering just what political addenda might be inserted into a chemistry, physics, or geometry text book. I can see the hands raised to bring biology into the picture but it wasn't the publishers that decided not to include creationism as a science but the school districts themselves.
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Post by For Real on Aug 1, 2007 19:51:37 GMT -5
I'm sorry - is this post for real? I do not think homeschooling introduces any hurdles that cannot be overcome but to say it does not present any problems is living in a state of denial. College admission personal were asked about it and while none of them said homeschooled students couldn't get in many of them did point out that they would face special difficulties. Chris Ellertson, Trinity University In evaluating home-schooled students we are concerned about their academic success and social adjustment. John Blackburn, University of Virginia Home-schooled students are at a disadvantage in selective admission programs, for we usually have little information which permits us to compare their credentials with other students. Grades awarded by parents and recommendations written by them as well give us pause. We are always looking for a basis for comparing them with a national standard. Often, standardized testing, college courses and the quality of their essays are the most helpful factors in their applications. Chris Lucier, University of Michigan Home school students are considered very carefully, but they are not disadvantaged. Whereas we don't require SAT IIs subject area tests for regular applicants, we will require them from home schooled students. Marc Camille, Xavier University I'm not sure I'd say home-schooled students are at a disadvantage, but clearly they've got to overcome the lack of familiarity that admission officer's have with their schooling. Allen London, Mercer University At Mercer, home schooled students are not a definite disadvantage, but they must provide higher than minimum SAT/ACT scores. Actually, students with a GED have an easier time gaining admission than those with an unofficial home school diploma.
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Post by HS questions on Aug 1, 2007 20:08:40 GMT -5
Can someone who has been involved with home schooling describe how classes that usually require teamwork are dealt with. For example, when I was in secondary school the math, art, history, and English departments all worked teaching a single unit where students worked on teams that would complete projects that satisfied the requirements of the various disciplines. For example, a team of students might have decided to map the travels of Henry Fleming and illustrate it, tying together art, math, and literature. In a home schooling environment can the concept of teamwork be used in similar projects?
Also, for the higher grades, how are studies requiring dissection and laboratory work handled?
TIA
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Post by amazed on Aug 1, 2007 20:37:18 GMT -5
How was everyone was educated before public schools came along?
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Post by getting windy on Aug 1, 2007 20:50:40 GMT -5
I just read the last few posts.... and wanted to add this: Most homeschoolers do not have trouble joining society. Those in public schools do. Wow. Now that is one sweeping generalization. Do you have any facts or study to back that one up?
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Post by no name on Aug 1, 2007 21:21:53 GMT -5
I'm sorry - is this post for real? I do not think homeschooling introduces any hurdles that cannot be overcome but to say it does not present any problems is living in a state of denial. College admission personal were asked about it and while none of them said homeschooled students couldn't get in many of them did point out that they would face special difficulties. Chris Ellertson, Trinity University In evaluating home-schooled students we are concerned about their academic success and social adjustment. John Blackburn, University of Virginia Home-schooled students are at a disadvantage in selective admission programs, for we usually have little information which permits us to compare their credentials with other students. Grades awarded by parents and recommendations written by them as well give us pause. We are always looking for a basis for comparing them with a national standard. Often, standardized testing, college courses and the quality of their essays are the most helpful factors in their applications. Chris Lucier, University of Michigan Home school students are considered very carefully, but they are not disadvantaged. Whereas we don't require SAT IIs subject area tests for regular applicants, we will require them from home schooled students. Marc Camille, Xavier University I'm not sure I'd say home-schooled students are at a disadvantage, but clearly they've got to overcome the lack of familiarity that admission officer's have with their schooling. Allen London, Mercer University At Mercer, home schooled students are not a definite disadvantage, but they must provide higher than minimum SAT/ACT scores. Actually, students with a GED have an easier time gaining admission than those with an unofficial home school diploma. Anyone saying or believing that public/outside schooling does not present any problems is living in a state of denial. Anyone saying or believing that an adequate education (and "socialization") can only be obtained outside the home is being severely short-sighted and, for lack of a better word, obtuse. Anything can carry its own share of potential cons. For homeschooling, any possible cons are far outweighed by the countless pros. Even you admit that homeschooling does not present any supposed hurdles that cannot be overcome. What may be perceived as a hurdle for one person or family is a mere step to another. And the oft-mentioned "con" of socialization is one of the many that is generally pure bunk. As far as the other things you quoted from - so what? As homeschooling grows (and it is on the rise), more and more colleges are becoming increasingly open to the reality of homeschooling graduates joining their ranks. Even many public schools work in cooperation with homeschooling families in various areas. Many of the issues raised in your quotes will become more obsolete as the years pass.
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Post by to GIT on Aug 2, 2007 1:21:30 GMT -5
I am a teacher in a public school. I'm sure you'll be objective then. You? Closed off to something you compete with? No! Honestly, I'll try not to let your narrow-minded view of other subject matter impact my reaction to your narrow-minded view of this one. As a school teacher, it is little wonder that you don't like homeschooling. (I'll resist the temptation to point out all the problems we are having these days with public school teachers in this country.) Do you think the firm belief of you, your colleagues, and state-sponsored educators should trump the firm belief of the children's parents? What issues? Any child in public school that falls outside the boundaries of the bell curve's median will be neglected. Are these the 20%~30% you are referring to with "issues"? Significant? If the insurmountable problems with homeschooling are so significant, please point to the overwhelming supply of reliable studies that show that homeschooling is a recipe for failure. Give us proof. Come on. Where are the studies? We're waiting. Don't fool yourself into thinking for a minute that if there were "significant drawbacks" to homeschooling that the (very rich and very powerful) powers that be in public education wouldn't be all over the issue. They'd make it front page news. They'd push the matter until homeschooling became illegal. The fact of the matter is that homeschooling works, it's a resounding success, the test scores prove it, the data proves it, and the nay-sayers have only their own biased, unfounded opinions to prop up their bogus beliefs. What is your point? Do you write your own curriculum? Then as a public school teacher, you should be embarrassed, because the students in your classroom are way behind the home schooled students whose average parents are "winging it". Have you looked at some of the home school curriculum available? You may be surprised by what you find. Or maybe not. Perhaps we should look at this another way. Public education in this country is in dismal shape. The question is, why? Could it have anything to do with teachers like yourself who obsess over theoretical and abstract concepts such as "Curriculum Theory"? Just maybe, education could be better served if snobs like you would pull your elitist nose out of the air and get back down to basics. They also learn to plan and carry out intricate and coordinated ambush style takeovers of a school, conceal, carry, load, and use a variety of weapons, to exact revenge on their unsuspecting classmates. They also learn to build and use a variety of explosive devices. (How about that, IED's in this country.) They also learn how to acquire and use (or misuse) a condom 10-years before they are legally allowed to purchase a copy of a pornographic magazine. They also learn how to buy, sell, make, and use drugs. They also learn the most important lesson of all: That in life, they will only be surrounded by, and required to interact with, people their own age and maturity level. Sadly, this lesson, as it turns out, is the biggest fraud of all. Do you want to discuss socialization? Oh please let's! In the public school system, to what variety of people demonstrating greater maturity can a student admire and aspire to be more like? I'm sure you've noticed that we have a problem with maturity in this country. There is a lack of it. With each generation, people become more selfish, self-absorbed, inconsiderate, and disturbingly, more prone to violence as an inappropriate response to their own anger. Have you every wondered why? Could it be that this issue has its roots in the fact that in today's world, children grow up surrounded by their own level of maturity as a norm? When it comes to mature behavior, they have little or nothing to aspire to, nothing to become, there is no reference, there is no "more mature". This is the real socialization issue when it comes to schooling. I'm going to assume that you have met more than four home schooled children. Given this assumption and taking into account my own experiences with somewhere around 100 home schooled children over the past 16 years, I'm convinced that you are either lying about your experience or you are pre-judging the home schooled children before they even have a chance to make a first impression, let alone a second. I know that sounded rude, but some idiocy is simply to obvious to address without some level of unpleasantness. Neither can a single teacher. You, for example. But this is beside the point. These professionals need not be present in the classroom or the home to have an impact. I'm convinced now that you've never seen homeschooling curriculum. (Unless you've seen it, having already pre-judged it.) Take a look. One good curriculum is Abeka. Another is Saxon. Another is BJU. Oh here we go again. I'll abbreviate this time. You are a liar and a master of the patently absurd. I know its rude, but you gave me no choice. One thing's for sure, they'll be average by definition. Sorry GIT, but you're going to have to do better than this. This isn't one of your little 2x2 meetings where you can say whatever you want and have everyone just swallow it whole. Also GIT, I'll be checking back so I can take a look at that heap of "homeschooling is a recipe for failure" studies you're going to provide. One last thing GIT, here's some light reading for you, I'm sure you'll enjoy it: www.hslda.org/docs/study/rudner1999/FullText.aspwww.chec.org/Legislative/News/HomeschoolingStatistics/Index.htmlwww.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/HomeSchoolAchievement.pdfwww.fraserinstitute.ca/admin/books/files/homeschool.pdf
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Post by For Sure on Aug 2, 2007 1:33:33 GMT -5
I do not think homeschooling introduces any hurdles that cannot be overcome but to say it does not present any problems is living in a state of denial. This is true of any kind of schooling. The people in college admissions can, and are going to, believe what they want. Often times, their opinions are based on what they've heard, which frequently has little to do with fact or practical experience. As it happens, I have been in the thick of things with college admissions recently and from experience, I can tell you that today (2007) the vast majority of colleges have no problem with home schooled applicants. About the only thing that may (?) be out of the ordinary is that they require standardized testing scores (SAT or ACT), which we have, and one wants a GED (a minor formality we are prepared to conform to if necessary).
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Post by Reality on Aug 2, 2007 1:37:31 GMT -5
As far as the other things you quoted from - so what? As homeschooling grows (and it is on the rise), more and more colleges are becoming increasingly open to the reality of homeschooling graduates joining their ranks. Even many public schools work in cooperation with homeschooling families in various areas. Many of the issues raised in your quotes will become more obsolete as the years pass. The reality is that right now homeschooling can present a hurdle for children entering schools. Homeschooling is on the rise and as people do enter college and succeed the admission will become easier for those who follow. Your future speculation is most likely true but let's deal with the here and now. Right now, according to the people who control the admissions, homeschooling does present a difficulty. Whether or not the benefits outweigh the problems is most likely different from case to case. Your chauvinistic attitude regarding homeschooling does not lend itself to discussion.
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Post by They were not on Aug 2, 2007 2:04:48 GMT -5
How was everyone was educated before public schools came along? If wealthy enough, private tutors. If not, they were not educated. Children worked on farms and, following the industrial revolution, in mines and factories. Until public schooling the majority of people were illiterate. Notable exceptions were countries like Sweden where laws for mandatory public education led to almost a 100% literacy rate by the end of the 18th century.
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Post by what to think on Aug 2, 2007 2:04:52 GMT -5
I'm sure you've noticed that we have a problem with maturity in this country. There is a lack of it. With each generation, people become more selfish, self-absorbed, inconsiderate, and disturbingly, more prone to violence as an inappropriate response to their own anger. Have you every wondered why? Could it be that this issue has its roots in the fact that in today's world, children grow up surrounded by their own level of maturity as a norm? When it comes to mature behavior, they have little or nothing to aspire to, nothing to become, there is no reference, there is no "more mature".
AHA a reason forr rude people - don't think I've heard this theory before!!
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Post by BAMA on Aug 2, 2007 2:51:08 GMT -5
There isn't a week that goes by that we do not receive a mailing from a college telling us that they welcome home educated students, please check them out. One child scored very well on the ACT we got mailings from some of the big name colleges inviting our child to consider their college. Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA) several years ago came out with a list of colleges that have made it clear that they welcome home educated students. This list was multiple pages in length. We have heard in gospel meetings about an educated idiot. Education does not make one a good teacher. A gift from God makes a good teacher. I have seen people with a GED or less doing a wonderful job of educating their children and seeking help when they come to a subject the parent doesn't feel competent to teach. You don't need a master's degree to understand what it takes to teach a child. You don't have to understand curriculum theory to see that a child doesn't understand the concepts of any subject. A teacher is one who can figure out how to teach to the needs of the learner. A link to some interesting information about colleges from HSLDA. www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000017.aspIn many public schools the teacher does not choose the book. The curriculum committee does. A teacher may have input. I use some materials provided by the local public school currently in use in the regular classrooms. The teacher manual gives you exact directions on bulletin boards related to the subject, material lists and shows a picture of how to set it up. It gives you banks of test questions to choose from if you don't want to use provided test forms. This year's math provided 3 different forms of each chapter test. The lessons are all broken down to day by day by week and shows you the worksheet you need to hand out and the answers. It gives extensions to the lesson for the more advanced students and remedial lessons and worksheets for those that lag. There are worksheets for ESL students. The manual also lists the questions you need to ask to lead the discussions. As well as sentences to use when going over the vocabulary words. If a person can read to follow the manual and has the worksheets-anyone can teach from those materials. It is a programmed set of instructions, choreographed and scripted requiring little input by the teacher. Maybe this is desirable? The ability to teach, to come up with ideas, to figure out a way to help a student learn is truly a gift of God. Public school teachers have little latitude to use their gifts. The lesson plans are made and they have to move on. People who have been long time teachers lament the changes in public education. These comments might be some different for the higher grades in relation to the scripted manuals. Public school has been good for making a literate populace. There are huge failings in the system. There are committees trying to figure out how to fix the system. Benchmarks, Guided Reading (AR), NCLB are attempts. Some states mandate testing. Some schools try mentoring to help the beginning and poor teachers. Another problem in the system is the lack of consistency. A child going to school in an inner city school doesn't often have the quality education that would be gotten in a mid-sized city. People do graduate from public school who have been promoted and passed on even though they can't do the work or read to the standard. People in very rural areas homeschool because there isn't any other school. There are abusers in every system. There are social mis-fits in every demographic category. There are also success stories. GIT, please don't presume to know why those children stood there, you should ask them their thoughts. I don't know where you live. I speak from my experiences in the US.
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Post by Noticable on Aug 2, 2007 3:18:33 GMT -5
As a school teacher, it is little wonder that you don't like homeschooling. (I'll resist the temptation to point out all the problems we are having these days with public school teachers in this country.) We are having mush worse problems with parents and their treatment f children in this country than we are with teachers. Your argument borders on the absurd. Most teachers teach from facts and not beliefs. And yes, when those facts are in opposition to the unproved beliefs of the parents they should trump. There is a correct and accepted explanation for events like chemical bonding, differentiation, and calculating statistics and regardless of the parent's beliefs, the facts should be taught. This speaks to my point above. Most people have a general knowledge and cannot teach children what they do not know. Median and mean and 6 grade terms yet adults misuse them. Standard deviation would have been the correct choice. All children, with the possible exception of 1, will fall outside of the bell curve's median. By the same token, you have nothing to show that there is a better success rate for homeschooling, better across all levels of society, than public schools. You would need to do better than this. Of course there are better test scores when the homeschooled are hand picked with supportive parents. How do you think home schooling would work when the parents are somewhat less than supportive, there is no money available for any books or supplies, and the parents simply do not care. Again, you have a long way to go to show that homeschooling is a better way across the board. And, according to the homeschooling supporters, it is acknowledged that the parents to not provide the materials. If you want to compare - take any group of homeschooled students and compare them to the graduates of Phillips Andover. Well, perhaps a bad choice - the two Bush Presidents present a definite downward tug on the whole picture. I have. It ranges from excellent to poor. Of course, would you accept a free curriculum from a company that is selling homeschooling products? They are probably just pushing their political agenda! Of is it the fact that parents have to work two and three jobs just to survive and can't stay with their children. I have two children who are teachers in the poorest parts of their cities. They both have master's degrees and work long hours in jobs that offer low pay. Do you really think it is their fault that the schools are in the shape they are? On an open house (parent's night) they ate lucky if 5% of the parents show up. What is the percentage of this happening? Compare it to shootings in the home. Schools are safer! Oh by all means keep condoms from kids until you think they need to use them. Just hope they do not already have an STD. Generally, the teachers are older and ate not their parents. In most schools there is not a single grade so the students move from being the youngest to being the oldest, something they never experience in a family. You start. My children. I wouldn't be surprised. I can't help but notice the difference in tone from the homeschooling supporters vs. those who are not such rabid fans. What a narrow set of options you present. It could also be that the children he met were not successfully schooled at home. Think about that statement. You have no choice but to be rude? And you are commenting on socialization? But it might help is they are there to explain the difference between the median and a standard deviation and the use of the word 'to' vs. 'too'. With all your homeschooling education skills you can see no option but being rude. Again, an illustration of a lack of understanding. The majority of the children will not be average. And fully 50% of them will be above average! And your rudeness does not make it so either. Take some time and try to find an option other than being rude in an attempt to get your points across. There are WWW sites that support HS and those that don't. I noted you chose all of the former for a balanced view. And you got all bent out of shape when someone posted some HS difficulties that were noted on one of the sites you referenced. Have you read the material? Next you'll be telling us that spanking the kids will help to teach them and improve their socialization skills!
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Post by no name on Aug 2, 2007 11:44:50 GMT -5
The reality is that right now homeschooling can present a hurdle for children entering schools. The reality is that anything can possibly present a hurdle for any child - no matter what school setting they're in. Yes, I know homeschooling is on the rise. Thank goodness! It's not just future speculation - if anything, it's becoming more and more of a reality. Sorry, but I have an issue with people trying to assert that they know what's best for other people's children. The thinly disguised disdain naysayers actually feel for homeschooling, and their ultimate assertion that most parents are basically too stupid to school their own children, is quite evident. I seriously doubt you really know what you're talking about on this issue. ETA: Some HS'ing stats: www.chec.org/Legislative/News/HomeschoolingStatistics/Index.htmlOne stat I found particularly interesting: Certification
Performance of 4th grade home schoolers where at least one parent was certified - Composite Percentage Score 82
Performance of 4th grade home schoolers where neither parent was certified - Composite Percentage Score 82 ETA#2 In answer to this challenge: Here: "Homeschooled Students Excel in College"www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000017.aspA tidbit from the link (I think this more than blows away some of your concerns about a HS'ing child's ability to function and perform well in higher education settings): A Positive College Experience
The 1996 survey of over 60 colleges and universities in all 50 states conducted by the National Center for Home Education revealed the following anecdotal accounts of homeschoolers in college:
A Harvard University (MA) admissions officer said most of their home-educated students "have done very well. They usually are very motivated in what they do." Results of the SAT and SAT II, an essay, an interview, and a letter of recommendation are the main requirements for home-educated applicants. "[Transcripts are] irrelevant because a transcript is basically a comparison to other students in the school."
In addition to Harvard, prominent schools like Yale (CT), Princeton (NJ), Texas A&M, Brown University (RI), the Carnegie Mellon Institute (PA), the Universities of Arizona, Maryland, Virginia, Hawaii and many others all have flexible transcript criteria, accept parental evaluations, and do not require any accreditation or a General Equivalency Diploma (GED). At Kansas State University and others like Lipscomb University and Middlebury College (VT), transcripts are optional.
In 1996, Birmingham-Southern College (AL) had only one homeschool applicant, but the admissions officer said the college “would be glad to have many more just like him!”
Roughly 50 homeschoolers attended the University of Montana. “The homeschoolers in this state seem to be up-to-date and well-organized. We even have homeschoolers in our honors programs. I know of one student for sure. She is one of our top students,” remarked one admissions official.
Bruce Walker at the University of Delaware said one home-educated student who “had an exceptional SAT score was invited to be considered for a full scholarship!”
“Homeschooling is becoming more and more prevalent,” said Mark Wheeler of Boise State University (ID). “We’re all trying to work together.”
Pennsylvania State University had 20 homeschool applicants in 1995, double the previous year. They prefer a portfolio with as much information as possible, including extra curricular activities that demonstrate leadership. “Homeschoolers show strongly in that,” said the admissions officer for Penn State.
Lewis and Clark College (OR) has a method of application called the “Portfolio Path” where a student can bypass standardized tests and instead be “reviewed on a myriad of things that would point to, and measure academic performance.” The Universities of Minnesota and Mississippi also look at the all-around abilities demonstrated in a homeschooler’s portfolio. University of Kentucky homeschool applicants “have to provide a portfolio of what they have done throughout their high school years” that is “creative and informative.” A UK admissions officer also said, “Our homeschoolers (about 50) tend to be very bright, and have scored very high on standardized tests.”
The Dartmouth College (NH) admissions officer explained, “The applications I’ve come across are outstanding. Homeschoolers have a distinct advantage because of the individualized instruction they have received.”
University of Alaska/Fairbanks has had over 300 home-educated students in the last few years, several of which were in their honors program. The program director, Mary Dicicco commented, “They have been wonderful students on the whole!”
Staff from Geneva College (PA) and Belhaven College (MS) are actively recruiting homeschoolers by going to homeschool conferences and book fairs to talk to parents and students about admissions.
“Homeschoolers have to work harder thereby increasing student productivity,” Jeff Lantis said of the 75-90 homeschoolers at Hillsdale College (MI). “Homeschoolers are consistently among our top students, in fact homeschoolers have won our distinct Honors Program the last three years in a row. We tend to look very favorably upon homeschoolers applying to our college.”
USA TODAY reported on October 28, 1996, that the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill’s dean of admissions, James Walters, has enrolled about 20 home-educated students, all of which “are performing above average academically.”
A letter sent in 1991 to homeschool leaders in Massachusetts from Thomas M. Rajala, Director of Admissions at Boston University is another example of the recognition institutions of higher learning are showing homeschoolers’ academic achievements:
Boston University welcomes applications from homeschooled students. We believe students educated at home possess the passion for knowledge, the independence, and the self-reliance that enable them to excel in our intellectually challenging programs of study.
Wheaton College (IL) Director of Admissions Dan Crabtree says that “Nearly 10 percent of our current freshmen were homeschooled at one point, and about a dozen were homeschooled through high school.” Wheaton’s 1999-2000 freshman class had 104 (out of 550) students who had been homeschooled at least one year.
The following comment, made by Jon Reider, Stanford’s senior associate director of admissions concerning the success of homeschoolers, was reported in a recent article in the Wall Street Journal: “Homeschoolers bring certain skills – motivation, curiosity, the capacity to be responsible for their education – that high schools don’t induce very well.”3
A report on the accomplishments of homeschool students has been published in Brown University's (RI) January/February, 2002, edition of its alumni magazine. In an article titled, "Homeschooling Comes of Age," Dean Joyce Reed states, "Homeschoolers are the epitome of Brown students. They are self-directed, they take risks, and they don't back off."
In 2002, an employee of Ball State University reported that "eighty percent of first time freshman who were homeschooled were admitted to one of our upper levels of admission, with 67% being admitted to Honors College—our highest level of admission. They tend to be very involved socially on campus, especially in groups relating to their academic major and in student religious groups."
During a fall 2004 interview, Phil Caffrey, Iowa State University's (ISU) director of admissions, stated that "homeschool students, on average, have higher grade-point averages" than the student body as a whole. Because of this, Caffrey stated that ISU is considering actively recruiting homeschool students at college fairs. 4 ETA #3: That's probably because you're not taking into account that homeschool supporters are usually defending against clueless people who think they know the best path for someone else . That's not being rabid; it's called not allowing an outsider attempt to discern what's best for your own child.
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Post by to Noticable on Aug 2, 2007 14:14:25 GMT -5
We are having mush worse problems with parents and their treatment f children in this country than we are with teachers. So you excuse big problems by finding a bigger problem. Truly absurd is your notion that since some parents mistreat their children, we should overlook teachers who can't pass basic competency tests, who fail background checks, who don't know the subject they're teaching, who can't connect with kids, who abuse kids... but get hired anyway. Your argument doesn't border on absurd, it redefines it. I'm sure you have some proof of this so please provide it. If your just pulling this little gem out of your backside, consider the fact that I could do the same for home school parents and you couldn't debate it with anything other than conjecture. I wonder, as a teacher, what do you do when you fundamentally disagree with what you are supposed to teach? And they are. I honestly don't know what you think goes on in a home schooling environment, but whatever it is, it is way off base. Whatever sinister agenda you think is being pushed forward is just a fancy hallucination in that pretty little head of yours. I'm sorry, I was flying through the reply, assuming you were educated, I thought you'd understand. If it's nitpicking you'd like to engage in for the purpose of demonstrating the inadequacy of each-other, they I'll start by pointing out your misuse of the word "mush" instead of "much" at the beginning of your last post and just for good measure, your malformation of the sentence "Median and mean and 6 grade terms yet adults misuse them." Despite my hurried misuse of the term, you knew what I meant, yet you failed to address my point. Stop being a coward. I wasn't the one making wild, unsubstantiated claims and broad, sweeping generalizations. You made the statement. The burden of proof is on you. Ditto. Where exactly did the hand-picking occur? This is your criticism so back it up. That is what public schools are for. Parents who don't take an interest in supporting their child's education don't typically even think of home schooling. They just ship their kids off to the institution. This is going to be real hard for you to understand, but education does not have to cost thousands of dollars per student per year. (I know, this is quite a shock for a public school lemming like yourself, but it is true.) Most home school families are not impoverished to the point of having $0 available for books and supplies. Most families in this economic bracket opt for public schools. I know families that wanted to home school but didn't, simply because they felt they couldn't afford it. I do know a few families that did just fine home schooling with a budget of $0. One in-particular comes to mind. The wife was very resourceful. She used the library, borrowed and traded books, consulted with friends of hers, and used trial and error to educate her four children. This may sound scary, but it worked. Perhaps it is more a testament to the sad state of public education than to her effective educating then that all four of her children rated significantly above their public schooled counterparts in multiple standardized testing scores. All four were wonderfully adjusted socially. All four were accepted into college, two of them with scholarships, one of them a four year full ride. Two graduated, one is still in college, and the fourth dropped out to get married. The oldest is a pharmacist. The second is in public relations. The third is studying to do be a computer programmer. So a 50%, maybe 75%, college graduation rate on a $0 budget. Public education and it's thousands of dollars per student per year should be ashamed. Most home school families don't have this 0$ budget anyway. Yes, home schooling can be expensive, but with a little resourcefulness, families manage. Another advantage to home school groups is the ability to buy, sell, trade, and borrow used curriculum. In our family, we use Abeka, and for the last four years, we have been sharing curriculum costs with two other families. What do you mean by "across the board"? I have never advocated that all families home school. The parents pick from what's available, as do the people who pick your curriculum. What's your point here? You are equating public school students in general with the students at Phillips Andover? LOL. Trust me, you are Phillips Andover material only in your dreams. I would like to see a comprehensive comparison of home schooled students with some of the nations top private schools' students. That would be interesting. Are you aware of any such comparison? This seems typical of you. Judge an entire group based on a very very small subset of that group. How very typical. No. What's your point? Is that why public school is "free"? They're pushing their political agenda? Seriously, I've never known a curriculum publisher to give away anything other than sample materials. In my experience, political agendas don't come from the curriculum so much as they come from the person teaching the class. There is little doubt in my mind that this is another part of it. So do you think there is just one culprit, or were you just avoiding my question because it stung you? (I apologize in advance. This is going to be hard for you to hear.) The city gets what it pays for. The public school system gets what it pays for. If public education would stop wasting money on administrative black holes and other Trojan horses, it could offer better pay to attract more qualified individuals to teach. Furthermore, if public school teachers weren't so limited in their ability to be effective by administrative boundaries, legal restrictions, and labor-union imposed blockades, public schools would have far fewer problems than they have. A common phrase comes to mind: "If you can't do anything else, you can always teach." I would say no more than 5%. The other 95% rests on the shoulders of the public school administration and the parents. Sad, isn't it? Parents need to be more involved. But public school administration is largely to blame too. There is a shift occurring here; The parents are becoming less to blame. I correspond with a home schooling family who lives in a town where the public school has stopped reporting problems to the parents. Why? The school is worried that if the parents abuse the child as a consequence for their bad behavior at school that the school will somehow be liable for the abuse. So the solution is to simply take the parents out of the loop. This policy came to light in 2004 when a child was being molested by a fellow student and the school refused to provide the parents of the victim or the police with the last name of the offender. The parents had to file a lawsuit to force the school to cooperate with authorities. Last I knew (May, 2007) this policy was still in effect, but modified slightly to deal with instances of sexual abuse differently. This policy, by nature, is not advertised to the parents. It would be nice, but impossible, to know how many school districts have a similar policy. It's sad; Parents aren't involved enough as it is and some parents, no matter how involved they want to be, aren't allowed to be involved. You're dodging my point, not that I'm surprised. Oh good, you have proof! Please provide the link to the study which shows that, statistically, more shootings occur in home school homes during school time than in schools during school time. Well they are my children and they do live in my house, so I should have the right to say when they are mature enough to be handed a condom. This is way better than the alternative - A pervert like you, wanting to hand my child a condom before he's old enough to see over a car's steering wheel. Not having ever been in a public school, they are way less likely to have one. So do you hand your students a fresh condom every morning before class or do you leave that to the school nurse? This is not variety. This is one person per year, all from one class of people; teachers. If this is all you've got, and it is, then the kids are getting short-changed. You've dodged my point, again. They may be older or younger than someone in another part of the building, but they are always grouped with their own age group. With what variety of people can they regularly interact with that are ten years younger? Ten years older? Twenty? Thirty? Forty? Fifty? Sixty? It's not just about the family, it's about the extended social network. I started. I finished. You dodged the whole thing. So you have somewhere between 60 and 100 children of your own, all of diverse age and background, and you bring them all to school with you? LOL. Whatever. I've noticed the same. Most of the home school supporters are well informed, intelligent, and articulate. On the flip-side of the issue there are people like you, a reckless propagandist who lies to prop up his agenda. I prefer to stick with practical, reasonable scenarios. If this offends you that's just to bad. If you are meeting a representative sample of home schooled students, "most" of the students you meet will not be as you described earlier. This is a fact supported by statistics. I suppose that, though unlikely, it could be your job to meet with the minority of problem home schooled students. In that case, since you are seeking out a select subset, it is far from reasonable to assume the people you meet are representative of the entire group. Then again, whatever props up your agenda driven belief system. Oh I did, and I'm certain that I said it in as polite a way as possible without removing the honesty from the statement. The appearance of rudeness is not always avoidable. Well, I did spend 13 years in the public education system. This again? I see when you have nothing to say, you resort to your own brand of poor social behavior, dodging the point, and obsessing over grammar mistakes, something you are guilty of as well. I felt an honest response was necessary. Sometimes, the truth hurts. I guess that's something you'll have to learn either to live with or counter with your own brand of poor social behavior. It seems you've opted for the latter. Again, an illustration of how you know what I'm talking about, but choose to ignore the point (not having a reasonable response). Keep dodging. If there were an option, I'd take it. But there wasn't. Some people are to dense to take anything other than the plain, cold, hard, uncensored facts. And now, both points of view have been posted. Yes. Balance was needed and now we have it. "Bent out of shape"? This doesn't ring any bells. Care to point to what you're talking about? Yes. No.
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Aug 2, 2007 15:48:12 GMT -5
Public schooling once meant a combination of homeschooling and teacher-schooling- but now, too many parents simply drop their children off and have no clue what they are learning, what is going on in the schools, and what their children's learning obstacles are.
Parents use to be more involved, mothers oftern volunteering at the school, attending school meetings, and meeting with the teachers on a regular basis- and not just because of bad behavior.
Parents are leaving it up to the school system to raise and discipline their children. Children are often coming home from school to an empty house.
It's really sad. In my personal opinion, which I have stated before, it doesn't really matter to me whether you choose public, private, or homeschool (where you teach or have a tutor do so). There will always be children who thrive in one over another.
It's disappointing how many people are close minded to homeschooling, but have never had a personal experience with it.... other than the few homeschoolers they have come across.
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Post by guest5 on Aug 2, 2007 18:50:49 GMT -5
amazed - reply 41 - How many years are you wanting to go back. I can tell you back to the early 1900s there were public schools in the Netherlands so imagine there were other places too. Further back than that I wouldn't know. There was probably no schooling at all.
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Post by One on Aug 2, 2007 18:51:00 GMT -5
Academic StatisticsThe average homeschool 8th grade student performs four grade levels above the national average (Rudner study). One in four homeschool students (24.5%) are enrolled one or more grades above age level. Students who have been home schooled their entire lives have the highest scholastic achievement. In every subject and at every grade level of the ITBS and TAP batteries, homeschool students scored significantly higher than their counterparts in public and private schools. Homeschool profileMedian amount spent on home schooling per child in the US - $450 Household incomes18% of home school families earn less than $25,000, 44% of households between $25,000 and $49,000. ReligionOver 75% attend religious services Television65.3% of 4th grade homeschoolers spend one hour or less per day watching television RegulationStates with High government regulation of home schools - homeschool battery score - 86 States with Moderate government regulation of home schools - homeschool battery score - 85 States with Low government regulation of home schools - homeschool battery score - 86 CertificationPerformance of 4th grade home schoolers where at least one parent was certified - Composite Percentage Score 82 Performance of 4th grade home schoolers where neither parent was certified - Composite Percentage Score 82 Minority PerformanceHome school - average reading score (white) - 87 percentile; Public school - average reading score (white) - 61 percentile Home school - average reading score (minority) - 87 percentile; Public school - average reading score (minority) -49 percent Home school - average math score (white) - 82 percentile; Public school - average math score (white) - 60 percentile Home school - average math score (minority) - 77 percentile; Public school - average math score (minority) - 50 percentile
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Dissapointments 4 All
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Post by Dissapointments 4 All on Aug 2, 2007 18:57:10 GMT -5
RegulationStates with High government regulation of home schools - homeschool battery score - 86 States with Moderate government regulation of home schools - homeschool battery score - 85 States with Low government regulation of home schools - homeschool battery score - 86 LOL. The regulation junkies gotta hate this. CertificationPerformance of 4th grade home schoolers where at least one parent was certified - Composite Percentage Score 82 Performance of 4th grade home schoolers where neither parent was certified - Composite Percentage Score 82 LOL. This has to frustrate those pointy head elitists. Minority PerformanceHome school - average reading score (white) - 87 percentile; Public school - average reading score (white) - 61 percentile Home school - average reading score (minority) - 87 percentile; Public school - average reading score (minority) -49 percent Home school - average math score (white) - 82 percentile; Public school - average math score (white) - 60 percentile Home school - average math score (minority) - 77 percentile; Public school - average math score (minority) - 50 percentile Confirmed then that public schools do discriminate!
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