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Post by speak on Jan 22, 2020 0:23:35 GMT -5
I read about of being of one accord. Does it really matter what he thinks or what you think or anyone else for that matter? we all have our own idiosyncrasies, no one is perfect. Thanks now I understand you.
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Post by speak on Jan 22, 2020 0:28:53 GMT -5
What Constitutes a Church Under Federal Laws? by Heleigh Bostwick, December 2009 Most churches are easy to recognize when we see them -- a congregation hall, rows of pews, probably a steeple. But what constitutes a church in the eyes of the IRS? Definitions of Church The issue of establishing definitions for a church has big implications. Institutions that are considered churches are granted tax-exempt status under Section 501(c)(3) of the Tax Code. Common definitions of the word "church" refer to the religious entity or organization, not just the building itself. The definition becomes more complicated when taking in to account each religious group's own definition of what constitutes a church. Churches and the IRS To clarify the federal government's definitions of a churches and other religious institution, the Internal Revenue Service uses clearly-defined guidelines. Over the years, the IRS has revised this list in response to various court decisions. To define churches and other religious entities, some of the IRS guidelines consider whether or not an institution has: a distinct legal existence and religious history, a recognized creed and form of worship, established places of worship a regular congregation and regular religious services, and an organization of ordained ministers Most mainstream religions such as Catholicism, Judaism, and common Protestant sects fit easily within the IRS guidelines. However, churches that are less traditional sometimes face difficulty in meeting the federal government's definition. Qualifying as a Church Some of the confusion over churches arises when the IRS differentiates between religious institutions like churches, and religious organizations. The IRS offers the following with regard to religious organizations, "Religious organizations that are not churches typically include nondenominational ministries, interdenominational and ecumenical organizations, and other entities whose principal purpose is the study or advancement of religion." However, in some cases a religious organization may qualify as a church even if it does not appear to be a church in the traditional sense. This is the case with Young Life, a nonprofit organization that the IRS officially recognized as a church following a July 2005 Ruling. Interestingly, Young Life does not have an established place of worship or church building per se, but it does have weekly meetings at specific locations. In the end, although Young Life did not meet all federal criteria for religious entities, the IRS concluded that it did meet a sufficient number of them to qualify as a church. The bottom line is that the IRS has created specific guidelines on churches and other religious entities to determine their tax status. However, it is not a requirement that a church meet all the criteria. Instead, the IRS offers some flexibility, giving various religious institutions the opportunity to qualify for the highly coveted tax exempt status. If you apply that criteria, 2x2's are not a Church. They would be classed as a Religious Organisation. Sill able to get tax exempt status. So Fixit I rest my case, you have probably never attended a proper Church, which means you cannot make qualified comment about them. So are you saying then that the Church in Christ is not included in the above? And you are right we are not a church with that criteria. None of that criteria has anything to do with Christ.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 1:00:29 GMT -5
The people define the Government. The Government states who qualifies as a Church or Religious Organisation because these organisations apply for Tax exemption. You will find that 2x2,s have Tax exemption. They would be glad to receive that. the church is the people and in america we are largely told to butt out of defining the gov't except for election day when our votes are wanted...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 1:09:08 GMT -5
Speak I don't know if you realise, it is now 2020. Christ died almost 2000 years ago. Society is controlled by the Government of the day, not Christ. Your original question was " What is a proper Church?". I have given you the answer as defined by the Government. It is not up to individuals to decide what constitutes a Church. The reason is obvious, if it were that easy, all sorts of weird groups would say they are a Church, so as to receive Tax benefits.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 1:13:18 GMT -5
Wally I bet you accept the benefits provided to Churches or Religious Organisations by the Government. Like Tax exemption and Age pensions. So why would you choose to ignore them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 1:23:41 GMT -5
Wally I bet you accept the benefits provided to Churches or Religious Organisations by the Government. Like Tax exemption and Age pensions. So why would you choose to ignore them. yeah at the barrel end of a firearm...i understand the tax reference but what does a pension have to do with anything?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 1:29:52 GMT -5
When Workers retire they apply for the Age Pension. They should have their own Superannuation Scheme.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 1:38:09 GMT -5
When Workers retire they apply for the Age Pension. They should have their own Superannuation Scheme. here in america i believe they can go on welfare unless they worked before becoming a worker neither of which has anything to do with their service as a worker or religious affiliation...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 1:42:21 GMT -5
Wally as usual you muddy the waters. I was a 2x2 and as such we were told to ignore man's law. The point I am making if you have contempt for the Government, don't accept the benefits they provide.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 1:45:53 GMT -5
Wally as usual you muddy the waters. I was a 2x2 and as such we were told to ignore man's law. The point I am making if you have contempt for the Government, don't accept the benefits they provide. haha...the discussion was gov't defining churches and churches defining gov'ts YOU muddied the waters by going into gov't benefits....
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 22, 2020 2:23:06 GMT -5
Speak I don't know if you realise, it is now 2020. Christ died almost 2000 years ago. Society is controlled by the Government of the day, not Christ. Your original question was " What is a proper Church?". I have given you the answer as defined by the Government. It is not up to individuals to decide what constitutes a Church. The reason is obvious, if it were that easy, all sorts of weird groups would say they are a Church, so as to receive Tax benefits. Well, that didn't work then.
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Post by mountain on Jan 22, 2020 3:18:32 GMT -5
Come on now Shazington. Here it is again. Mattias was required to have been selected to be part of the Pentecost outpouring of the Spirit, not afterwards. All twelve were to be part of that. It had to happen before Pentecost. By all means contend with Nathan where there is a proper argument. Nathan is cast iron correct here. The disciples weren't jumping the gun. They were loading it for Pentecost. Give credit where it is due. No wonder Nathan gets frustrated. Next you will be claiming the NAZIS did not have bases in occupied Europe during the last war, probably because Nathan has said that they did? 15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) 16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. 18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. 19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. 21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. 23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. 26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. You’re not correct. All were in that gathering. All received the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:1. And when Day of Pentecost was fully come, THEY WERE ALL WITH ONE ACCORD(Acts 1:15. Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, ‘...the number of names together were about a hundred and twenty’. ). IN ONE Place. Verse 3: And THEY ALL WERE FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST,...as the Spirit gave them utterance. We read in through Acts that more people then the Apostles received the a Holy Spirit. You DO agree though that ALL of the Apostles were speaking to all who were gathered at Pentecost? You do agree that Mattias was one of the twelve speaking? In which case, because of his prominant position in the group and his oratory role, he had to be chosen beforehand! He had to be numbered with the twelve. Do you never run these things past Virgs?
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Post by chuck on Jan 22, 2020 7:34:54 GMT -5
You are jumping all over the places and around like a Mexican jumping beans with your belief... One minute you say this and a few posts later you say differently. Like in the beginning you say there are ONLY 12 apostles that sent by Jesus. OK, How about Matthias, Barnabas and Paul and Timothy and Silas were called apostles in the scriptures Acts 1; Acts 14:14; I Thess 2:6.
You gave a list of the credentials to be apostles in Acts 1:21 had to be with them since the baptism of John the Baptist, and had to Witness Jesus resurrection and His ascension. They had to be Jews/Hebrews/Israelite. As Wally pointed out Simon the Zealot was not a Jew, neither Silas, or Titus but they were called apostles like Paul who was a Hebrew/Israelite.
Then you say I NEVER said there have NOT been apostles since then... According to your posts and belief it is IMPOSIBLE to be an apostle in ANY AGES! Who are you trying to fool with your lack of understanding. Now, you say/believe there has been apostles since the time of Jesus. So, let me ask you this, what are theirs qualification/credentials to be an apostle for today or the last 2000 yrs? I corrected my mistake wally pointed out. If you cant understand my position might I suggest instead of telling me how I cannot read the bible you invest some time reading what I actually write.
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Post by chuck on Jan 22, 2020 8:43:19 GMT -5
I'm sorry that, as a member of the church, you think I should be in accord with Nathan. That seems counter-productive to me. I read about of being of one accord. One accord or 2x2 accord?.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 8:48:58 GMT -5
I think most of the workers and friends try to keep what they preach in meeting from to becoming a part of their everyday lives.
I told one of the workers that I could no longer go listen to her speak about love and kindness in gospel meeting when she had not shown any love or kindness to my family.
The problem with any so called religion is words are cheap. Living those words comes at a great cost. Jesus did not just preach he lived what he preached.
A lot of the 2x2 on this forum can preach but they do not live what they preach. There is not much love, kindness or compassion shown on this forum.
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Post by nathan on Jan 22, 2020 9:42:46 GMT -5
I corrected my mistake wally pointed out. If you cant understand my position might I suggest instead of telling me how I cannot read the bible you invest some time reading what I actually write. I do read what you write, Chuck... and your interpretation are NOT always sound so, I try to point out these in kindness. This way you cant be call a false teacher by passing on false teachings to others. I present my side of understanding and you present yours and let the readers decide these things for themselves.
Paul wrote to Timothy I Tim 4:15-16 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
I too want to make sure the doctrines which I teach on TMB are true, correct and sound because people eternal life and destiny are depending on it. We don't want point and lead people to the WRONG path, because we will accountable in the day of judgment. Matthew 7:13-28.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 22, 2020 11:44:57 GMT -5
You’re not correct. All were in that gathering. All received the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:1. And when Day of Pentecost was fully come, THEY WERE ALL WITH ONE ACCORD(Acts 1:15. Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, ‘...the number of names together were about a hundred and twenty’. ). IN ONE Place. Verse 3: And THEY ALL WERE FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST,...as the Spirit gave them utterance. We read in through Acts that more people then the Apostles received the a Holy Spirit. You DO agree though that ALL of the Apostles were speaking to all who were gathered at Pentecost? You do agree that Mattias was one of the twelve speaking? In which case, because of his prominant position in the group and his oratory role, he had to be chosen beforehand! He had to be numbered with the twelve. Do you never run these things past Virgs? I run nothing by Virgs and likely never will. No need to ask such a stupid thing of me. It doesn’t say it was ONLY the Apostles that spoke in tongues. Fact is it says: “And they ALL were filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, AS TH SPIRIT GAVE THEM UTTERANCE.” As there were 120 or so people there, and it was the 50th day from Passover, which is the Feast of harvest or Pentecost, thus a holy day. There'd been a kind of “meeting” of the Christ followers plus Jesus had promised the Comforter. The 2x2s have often quoted this as a pattern for their Sunday meetings, where “as the Spirit gives each one utterance” they testify one by one. But not necessarily in tongues.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 22, 2020 11:52:01 GMT -5
Wally and Nathan- Simon the Zealot WAS A JEW.
the Zealot? Simon the Canaanite? Or Simon the Zealot? Charles Spurgeon
Simon called the Zealot has apparently two surnames in Scripture, but they mean the same thing. He is called Simon the Canaanite in Hebrew—not because he was an inhabitant of Cana or a Canaanite, but that word, when interpreted, means precisely the same as the Greek word Zelotes. He was called Simon the Zealot. I suppose that he had this name before his conversion. It is thought by some that he was a member of that very fierce and fanatical political sect of the Jews called the Zealots.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 22, 2020 11:55:35 GMT -5
Silas was a Jew. Nathan and Wally.
Question: "What can we learn from the life of Silas?"
Answer: Silas was a leader in the early church, a fellow missionary with Paul, and a “faithful brother” (1 Peter 5:12). He was a Hellenistic Jew who, it seems, was also a Roman citizen (Acts 16:37). He is also referred to as “Silvanus” in Paul’s Epistles (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 1:1).
FromGotQuestions.org
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Post by snow on Jan 22, 2020 12:05:51 GMT -5
Well all you have done here is confirm that the 2x2's do not go back in an unbroken succession to the shores of Galilee like the workers so often preached back in my days with them. WI having the holy spirit as his overseer proves that once and for all. *** I have said this over 20 yrs on TMB, there has always been Jesus apostles on the earth in every generation, whom sent by Jesus and the Holy Spirit. William Irvine was NOT the first apostle/Worker that God sent out in 1898-9. The Faith Mission pilgrim workers went forth BEFORE him and there had been MANY others workers/apostles went before the Faith Mission workers...it goes back to the early days apostles and Jesus himself. Maybe so, but Irvine was the first 2x2. You just can't deny that because we have no workers lists before he started the 2x2's
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Post by snow on Jan 22, 2020 12:07:36 GMT -5
And with Paul we have only his word for it that he was chosen by Jesus. No, we have Jesus’ word to Ananias. And what is the possibility of Ananias being in on the whole thing in the first place. You are too trusting that all of this is absolutely true and not contrived propaganda to grow a new religion.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 22, 2020 12:11:19 GMT -5
No, we have Jesus’ word to Ananias. And what is the possibility of Ananias being in on the whole thing in the first place. You are too trusting that all of this is absolutely true and not contrived propaganda to grow a new religion. It appears the only way Ananias knew Paul or Saul of Tarsus was he’d been persecuting, imprisoning, beating and killing the s Christ followers. He’d mentioned that to Jesus then Jesus said that Paul was a chosen vessel to him and that Paul must suffer many things in the name of Christ. If I’m too trusting you’re far too quick to find fault. We’ve watched you go from agnostic to critic atheist, and I find it a very ugly picture, Snow. You’re better then that. Far better!
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Post by snow on Jan 22, 2020 12:12:27 GMT -5
Apart from Wally, does anyone else think that Nathan represents the church of the workers and friends? I say he doesn't. Far from it. Well certainly not the church as it was when I left it. That's for sure. And the worker that posted here for awhile last year also was not a representative of the Truth group as it was when I left it. His manner shocked me to be honest.
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Post by fixit on Jan 22, 2020 12:34:01 GMT -5
I think most of the workers and friends try to keep what they preach in meeting from to becoming a part of their everyday lives. I told one of the workers that I could no longer go listen to her speak about love and kindness in gospel meeting when she had not shown any love or kindness to my family. The problem with any so called religion is words are cheap. Living those words comes at a great cost. Jesus did not just preach he lived what he preached. A lot of the 2x2 on this forum can preach but they do not live what they preach. There is not much love, kindness or compassion shown on this forum. Chuck, you hit the nail on the head with the statement below: The problem with any so called religion is words are cheap. Living those words comes at a great cost. Jesus did not just preach he lived what he preached.It reminds me of something Sam Jones wrote: ’Twas life I got, not theory: His voice I did obey, And entered in by Jesus— God’s only way.Man's downfall is that he prefers a belief system based on words, rather than spiritual life. Man chooses "knowledge of good and evil" rather than "life".
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Post by snow on Jan 22, 2020 12:34:08 GMT -5
And what is the possibility of Ananias being in on the whole thing in the first place. You are too trusting that all of this is absolutely true and not contrived propaganda to grow a new religion. It appears the only way Ananias knew Paul or Saul of Tarsus was he’d been persecuting, imprisoning, beating and killing the s Christ followers. He’d mentioned that to Jesus then Jesus said that Paul was a chosen vessel to him and that Paul must suffer many things in the name of Christ. If I’m too trusting you’re far too quick to find fault. We’ve watched you go from agnostic to critic atheist, and I find it a very ugly picture, Snow. You’re better then that. Far better! How did what I say about Paul construe as being 'quick to find fault'? I don't find fault, I question. I didn't fault you by saying I thought you were too trusting that everything in the bible is absolutely true and not construed in some way. I like you and I respect you. Yes I'm an atheist and yes I question things that are believed on faith. But I don't see how questioning is a 'very ugly picture'. But it's good to know what people think of you, so thanks for letting me know.
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Post by nathan on Jan 22, 2020 13:07:24 GMT -5
*** I have said this over 20 yrs on TMB, there has always been Jesus apostles on the earth in every generation, whom sent by Jesus and the Holy Spirit. William Irvine was NOT the first apostle/Worker that God sent out in 1898-9. The Faith Mission pilgrim workers went forth BEFORE him and there had been MANY others workers/apostles went before the Faith Mission workers...it goes back to the early days apostles and Jesus himself. Maybe so, but Irvine was the first 2x2. You just can't deny that because we have no workers lists before he started the 2x2's Yes, he was one of the many workers, according to Edward Cooney he was part time preacher had meeting in the home. Many of the workers had received similar revelation to WI. The FAITH Missions workers were practicing 2x2 apostolic/workers ministry before WI and the 2x2 worker, who copied their ministry from them.
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Post by nathan on Jan 22, 2020 13:52:13 GMT -5
*** I have said this over 20 yrs on TMB, there has always been Jesus apostles on the earth in every generation, whom sent by Jesus and the Holy Spirit. William Irvine was NOT the first apostle/Worker that God sent out in 1898-9. The Faith Mission pilgrim workers went forth BEFORE him and there had been MANY others workers/apostles went before the Faith Mission workers...it goes back to the early days apostles and Jesus himself. Maybe so, but Irvine was the first 2x2. You just can't deny that because we have no workers lists before he started the 2x2's *** What did WI started Jesus 2x2 ministry already been done by others before him 1800 yrs. It was Edward Cooney and the others workers established the Sunday morning fellowship/worship meeting in the homes of believers and baptized their converts. ALL WI did was to introduce the 2x2s Jesus 2x2 apostolic/workers ministry started by the Faith Mission. The Sunday worship meetings and baptism started by Edward Cooney and with the help of other workers. It was more like a team work efforts! But William Irvine claimed it was ALL his own idea and started ALL of it by himself as the FOU DER when he was ONLY a FINDER of the Truth in Jesus Way.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 22, 2020 14:48:29 GMT -5
It appears the only way Ananias knew Paul or Saul of Tarsus was he’d been persecuting, imprisoning, beating and killing the s Christ followers. He’d mentioned that to Jesus then Jesus said that Paul was a chosen vessel to him and that Paul must suffer many things in the name of Christ. If I’m too trusting you’re far too quick to find fault. We’ve watched you go from agnostic to critic atheist, and I find it a very ugly picture, Snow. You’re better then that. Far better! How did what I say about Paul construe as being 'quick to find fault'? I don't find fault, I question. I didn't fault you by saying I thought you were too trusting that everything in the bible is absolutely true and not construed in some way. I like you and I respect you. Yes I'm an atheist and yes I question things that are believed on faith. But I don't see how questioning is a 'very ugly picture'. But it's good to know what people think of you, so thanks for letting me know. I said you are far better then that! That was my point! It comes off as cynicism!
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