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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 17, 2020 17:48:09 GMT -5
He said that 'some that are standing here will not die before I return'. You can't twist that to say he was talking about when he returns sometime in the far future. Hi Snow, can you please cite the passage in scripture that you are referring to? Is it Matthew 16? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
I am wondering if there is a connection between the above verses and the following. Perhaps other disciples/Apostles had similar visions prior to their deaths? Acts 7 54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.Mountain, Matthew 16 continues on in the next chapter because it goes to say immediately in 17:1 that Jesus took Peter, James and John with him up on the mount. They saw his transfiguration and saw Esaias and Moses from heaven. In II Peter 1:16 explains that they were”eyewitnesses of HIS MAJESTY”. This was when they saw him in his kingdom before they’d tasted death. They saw Moses and Esaias from heaven ( the eternal kingdom) speaking to Jesus in his transfigured body (his eternal body) and thus equates they saw him in his eternal kingdom. They were eyewitnesses of his majesty. There is no mystery at all. It doesn’t say Stephen was with the disciples when Jesus said what he did.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 17, 2020 17:49:18 GMT -5
What a waste -- all of this knowledge and no school to share it with. Mockery isn’t very nice.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 17, 2020 17:50:31 GMT -5
Doesn’t say they were forever either. It does say to go to the gentiles, preach the Gospel, heal the sick, cast out demons and so on. Miracles will follow those who believe. Why do people pray for the sick, miracles etc if they died out in the first century? That was to the 11 Apostles in Matthew 28. It seems to me, that after the 1st century there was a division of spiritual and physical healing. And as medical discoveries and treatments became more known there was a complete cessation of spiritual personnel trying to heal people. I think it was because as Nathan mentioned, the Apostles were given the gift so that they’d be known as being from him. He was after all, the Great Physician.
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Post by mountain on Jan 17, 2020 17:57:46 GMT -5
Very good point Shaz. Thanks. However the Matthew 17 vision was only 6 days later. Nevertheless it is a far likelier explanation than Jesus talking about his second coming. The Stephen vision was given as an example of what the original 12 disciples may have seen prior to their deaths, but that is only speculation.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 17, 2020 17:59:00 GMT -5
What a waste -- all of this knowledge and no school to share it with. Mockery isn’t very nice. Who is mocking who?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 17, 2020 18:24:24 GMT -5
Very good point Shaz. Thanks. However the Matthew 17 vision was only 6 days later. Nevertheless it is a far likelier explanation than Jesus talking about his second coming. The Stephen vision was given as an example of what the original 12 disciples may have seen prior to their deaths, but that is only speculation. I had not heard to continue the story unto chapter 17 until a minister who had been a professor mentioned it when he was speaking on II Peter 1:16.
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Post by snow on Jan 17, 2020 19:42:37 GMT -5
He said that 'some that are standing here will not die before I return'. You can't twist that to say he was talking about when he returns sometime in the far future. Hi Snow, can you please cite the passage in scripture that you are referring to? Is it Matthew 16? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
I am wondering if there is a connection between the above verses and the following. Perhaps other disciples/Apostles had similar visions prior to their deaths? Acts 7 54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.Yes, he stated that some of them would still be alive when he returned.
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Post by snow on Jan 17, 2020 19:43:50 GMT -5
He said that 'some that are standing here will not die before I return'. You can't twist that to say he was talking about when he returns sometime in the far future. it says "taste of death" a little different than "not die".... How? It clearly says they will still be alive when he returns. Apparently I'm wrong. It can be twisted to say something it doesn't actually say...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2020 19:48:43 GMT -5
it says "taste of death" a little different than "not die".... How? It clearly says they will still be alive when he returns. not really, as i have said before him saying that is like a mother telling her kids after she's punished them just wait till your father gets home then you'll really get it....I.E "taste of death" is your father coming home to give final punishment....
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Post by snow on Jan 17, 2020 19:52:34 GMT -5
How? It clearly says they will still be alive when he returns. not really, as i have said before him saying that is like a mother telling her kids after she's punished them just wait till your father gets home then you'll really get it....I.E "taste of death" is your father coming home to give final punishment.... But the whole point is not the dying part. It's the promise that they will still be alive and clearly none of them are still alive.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2020 20:00:14 GMT -5
not really, as i have said before him saying that is like a mother telling her kids after she's punished them just wait till your father gets home then you'll really get it....I.E "taste of death" is your father coming home to give final punishment.... It's the promise that they will still be alive and clearly none of them are still alive. that really wasn't the point of the verse....the point was that the second death will be worse than any death they may experience between then and judgement day...
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Post by joanna on Jan 17, 2020 20:00:30 GMT -5
Why do people believe anything Jesus said when his lies are documented?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 17, 2020 20:20:32 GMT -5
Hi Snow, can you please cite the passage in scripture that you are referring to? Is it Matthew 16? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
I am wondering if there is a connection between the above verses and the following. Perhaps other disciples/Apostles had similar visions prior to their deaths? Acts 7 54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.Yes, he stated that some of them would still be alive when he returned. That’s not what he said.
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Post by snow on Jan 17, 2020 20:21:38 GMT -5
It's the promise that they will still be alive and clearly none of them are still alive. that really wasn't the point of the verse....the point was that the second death will be worse than any death they may experience between then and judgement day... I was wrong. Apparently it can be twisted to mean anything but what it actually says...
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 17, 2020 20:24:58 GMT -5
Why do people believe anything Jesus said when his lies are documented? That is not a lie. You’ve got to continue reading into the first part of the next chapter. Peter, James and John did see Jesus “in his majesty” as Peter said in II Peter 1:16. They saw Moses and Esaias in their eternal body and they witnessed Jesus’ transfiguration into his eternal body. Thus they did see him in his kingdom. He didn’t say he was returning , he said some would not taste death until they saw him in his kingdom. And theyvDID SEE HIM IN HIS ETERNAL KINGDOM.
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Post by nathan on Jan 17, 2020 22:29:04 GMT -5
Why do people believe anything Jesus said when his lies are documented? That is not a lie. You’ve got to continue reading into the first part of the next chapter. Peter, James and John did see Jesus “in his majesty” as Peter said in II Peter 1:16. They saw Moses and Esaias in their eternal body and they witnessed Jesus’ transfiguration into his eternal body. Thus they did see him in his kingdom. He didn’t say he was returning , he said some would not taste death until they saw him in his kingdom. And theyvDID SEE HIM IN HIS ETERNAL KINGDOM. *** Amen, Many people who dont know or understand who Jesus is so, they often say things are false and untrue about Him.
We went over this topic with Snow, dmg and others in the past, we=Wally/you/me explained to them so many times but they refused to believe it.
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Post by mountain on Jan 18, 2020 3:17:42 GMT -5
Hi Snow, can you please cite the passage in scripture that you are referring to? Is it Matthew 16? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
I am wondering if there is a connection between the above verses and the following. Perhaps other disciples/Apostles had similar visions prior to their deaths? Acts 7 54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.Yes, he stated that some of them would still be alive when he returned. What he is actually recorded as having said is: which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom
This may be very different from 'some of them would still be alive when he returned.' They saw the son of Man glorified in Heaven, who is preparing to return to set up his Kingdom on Earth. What they saw, everyone will see when the Son of Man returns. Just my thoughts. (Virgs)
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Post by chuck on Jan 18, 2020 7:41:02 GMT -5
The 11 focus on Christ's Identity. Paul Focusses on Christ's Work. Two different programs. Now there is one Gospel. Could you show me where Paul was accused as false?. And where the christians were angry with him?. First of all, the original apostles weren't identified as Christians. They identified as Jews. Paul never focused on who Jesus was, he focused on the story of a 'Christos' which had basis in other earlier stories. Read about his first visit to Jerusalem where he had to be hidden, protected and actually made to repent what he had been preaching for him to be able to be safe. Once he left Jerusalem he kept right on preaching what was not approved by the originals. Sure they were Jews, what's your point? Paul focuses on the finished work of Christ. Are you saying the original apostles accused paul of being false? because that seem to be what you are accusing him of. What exact scripture are you refering to with Paul being hidden/protected from Christians?. And who made him repent and why?
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Post by chuck on Jan 18, 2020 8:37:43 GMT -5
What makes you think all of this? History -- well articulated by the one who introduced the "christ" theology to what was to become Christianity. So you agree Jesus wanted the old law enforced?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 18, 2020 11:50:03 GMT -5
History -- well articulated by the one who introduced the "christ" theology to what was to become Christianity. So you agree Jesus wanted the old law enforced? He actually said that every joy and tittle would be fulfilled. He didn’t say enforced. He did fulfill the old law , he said it is finished and he established the new covenant with his death and resurrection.
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Post by snow on Jan 18, 2020 12:34:34 GMT -5
Yes, he stated that some of them would still be alive when he returned. What he is actually recorded as having said is: which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom
This may be very different from 'some of them would still be alive when he returned.' They saw the son of Man glorified in Heaven, who is preparing to return to set up his Kingdom on Earth. What they saw, everyone will see when the Son of Man returns. Just my thoughts. (Virgs) I don't see how it can be interpreted any other way, but obviously it can.
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Post by snow on Jan 18, 2020 13:24:30 GMT -5
First of all, the original apostles weren't identified as Christians. They identified as Jews. Paul never focused on who Jesus was, he focused on the story of a 'Christos' which had basis in other earlier stories. Read about his first visit to Jerusalem where he had to be hidden, protected and actually made to repent what he had been preaching for him to be able to be safe. Once he left Jerusalem he kept right on preaching what was not approved by the originals. Sure they were Jews, what's your point? Paul focuses on the finished work of Christ. Are you saying the original apostles accused paul of being false? because that seem to be what you are accusing him of. What exact scripture are you refering to with Paul being hidden/protected from Christians?. And who made him repent and why? Acts talks about Paul wanting to go to Jerusalem and his followers in Tyre warning him not to go because they knew that the Jewish Christians followed the Mosaic law and Paul didn't. They knew he would be in trouble for what he was allowing and preaching among the Gentiles. And when he got to Jerusalem, sure enough, the apostles and James told him he had to prove to the masses that he did uphold the Mosaic Law by undergoing the Purification ritual even though he no longer followed the law. They hid him until it was safe, after they had seen Paul undergo the purification. The whole story is in Acts.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 18, 2020 13:35:58 GMT -5
Yes, he stated that some of them would still be alive when he returned. What he is actually recorded as having said is: which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom
This may be very different from 'some of them would still be alive when he returned.' They saw the son of Man glorified in Heaven, who is preparing to return to set up his Kingdom on Earth. What they saw, everyone will see when the Son of Man returns. Just my thoughts. (Virgs) You seem to be talking about when Jesus “coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Matthew 24:30-31? That is about the rapture. It is also where he says the generation that sees the signs of the fig tree, putting forth green leaves(this signifies Israel coming back into fertile production.). Which is at present. But the generation that sees those signs he’s told his Apostles, is the “This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled.” He actually didn’t say he’s returning there either,
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 18, 2020 13:46:24 GMT -5
it says "taste of death" a little different than "not die".... How? It clearly says they will still be alive when he returns. Apparently I'm wrong. It can be twisted to say something it doesn't actually say... It doesn’t say when he returns. That’s what got you not understanding.
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Post by snow on Jan 18, 2020 13:52:23 GMT -5
How? It clearly says they will still be alive when he returns. Apparently I'm wrong. It can be twisted to say something it doesn't actually say... It doesn’t say when he returns. That’s what got you not understanding. His Kingdom is here on earth when he returns. He has not returned so his kingdom is not yet. At least not by bible standards.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 18, 2020 14:03:16 GMT -5
Sure they were Jews, what's your point? Paul focuses on the finished work of Christ. Are you saying the original apostles accused paul of being false? because that seem to be what you are accusing him of. What exact scripture are you refering to with Paul being hidden/protected from Christians?. And who made him repent and why? Acts talks about Paul wanting to go to Jerusalem and his followers in Tyre warning him not to go because they knew that the Jewish Christians followed the Mosaic law and Paul didn't. They knew he would be in trouble for what he was allowing and preaching among the Gentiles. And when he got to Jerusalem, sure enough, the apostles and James told him he had to prove to the masses that he did uphold the Mosaic Law by undergoing the Purification ritual even though he no longer followed the law. They hid him until it was safe, after they had seen Paul undergo the purification. The whole story is in Acts. As all you’ve accused Paul of, and I didn’t remember all of that; I went and reread those chapters about this incident. The Jews from Asia, not from Jerusalem, accused Paul of the same thing that was accused of Stephen. “...This is the man , that teacher hall men every where against the people, and the law and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this Holy place.” Acts 21:28 Acts 21:29(For they had seen before with him in the CITY Trophimus an Ephesian, whom THEY SUPPOSED(ASSUMED) that Paul had brought into the temple. Even the chief captain assumed he was someone else, like the Egyptian man which had led an uproar and led some out into the wilderness, that were murderers. Paul gives an accounting to Felix in Acts 24:17-Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation and offerings, Whereupin certain Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with multitude, nor with tumult. Who ought to have been here before thee, and object, if they had OUGHT against me. Or else let these same here say, if they have found any evidence in me, while I stood before the council. EXCEPT IT BE FOR THIS ONE VOICE, THAT I CRIED STANDING AMING THEM, TOUCHING THE TESURRECTION OF THE DEAD I AM CALLED IN QUESTION BY YOU THIS DAY. The reason they treated Paul so raw was because he was preaching about the resurrection of Jesus. Which is not adverse to what the 11 Apostles had preached. The rest of it was a BUNCH OF ASSumptions.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 18, 2020 14:08:38 GMT -5
It doesn’t say when he returns. That’s what got you not understanding. His Kingdom is here on earth when he returns. He has not returned so his kingdom is not yet. At least not by bible standards. No, his kingdom is eternal in heaven. He WILL reign a millennial reign on earth to have righteousness on earth but his kingdom has always been in heaven. In John 18:36. He told Pilate about his kingdom. “My kingdom is not of this world: If my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
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Post by snow on Jan 18, 2020 14:20:03 GMT -5
Acts talks about Paul wanting to go to Jerusalem and his followers in Tyre warning him not to go because they knew that the Jewish Christians followed the Mosaic law and Paul didn't. They knew he would be in trouble for what he was allowing and preaching among the Gentiles. And when he got to Jerusalem, sure enough, the apostles and James told him he had to prove to the masses that he did uphold the Mosaic Law by undergoing the Purification ritual even though he no longer followed the law. They hid him until it was safe, after they had seen Paul undergo the purification. The whole story is in Acts. As all you’ve accused Paul of, and I didn’t remember all of that; I went and reread those chapters about this incident. The Jews from Asia, not from Jerusalem, accused Paul of the same thing that was accused of Stephen. “...This is the man , that teacher hall men every where against the people, and the law and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this Holy place.” Acts 21:28 Acts 21:29(For they had seen before with him in the CITY Trophimus an Ephesian, whom THEY SUPPOSED(ASSUMED) that Paul had brought into the temple. Even the chief captain assumed he was someone else, like the Egyptian man which had led an uproar and led some out into the wilderness, that were murderers. Paul gives an accounting to Felix in Acts 24:17-Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation and offerings, Whereupin certain Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with multitude, nor with tumult. Who ought to have been here before thee, and object, if they had OUGHT against me. Or else let these same here say, if they have found any evidence in me, while I stood before the council. EXCEPT IT BE FOR THIS ONE VOICE, THAT I CRIED STANDING AMING THEM, TOUCHING THE TESURRECTION OF THE DEAD I AM CALLED IN QUESTION BY YOU THIS DAY. The reason they treated Paul so raw was because he was preaching about the resurrection of Jesus. Which is not adverse to what the 11 Apostles had preached. The rest of it was a BUNCH OF ASSumptions. I'm not sure what you're thinking is an assumption. He clearly had to perform the purification ritual to be safe in Jerusalem. The bible says so. I didn't.
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