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Post by Roselyn T on Dec 4, 2019 21:02:38 GMT -5
reborn I know what I was told from my Grandmother and what her views were on the trinity. I have sat in enough meetings, missions and Conventions to know what the Workers teach about the trinity doctrine !! You may think that you know what some of the workers believe, however you do not have the ability to know what they all think! So why were they not teaching the trinity doctrine in the early 1900s in Australia ? Of course back then John Hardie ruled and what he said went. Have a look at Doug Parkers book and see what happened when he dared to question.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 4, 2019 21:02:45 GMT -5
Unbelief is actually unbelievable! Reborn, would you say the same about a belief in one of the other gods? There are many such "gods"
For instance: there is Tammuz, Adonis and Attis, Dionysus and as well as Jesus Christ.
Examples of gods who die and later return to life are from the religions of the Ancient Near East which include Biblical and Greco-Roman mythology and by extension Christianity. The concept of a dying-and-rising god is found in the fertility rites surrounding the yearly cycle of vegetation. That is why we celebrate the resurrection of Jesus at Easter with the return of vegetation.
Would you also say that an "Unbelief" in any one of the those gods would also "unbelievable?"
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Post by Roselyn T on Dec 4, 2019 21:09:16 GMT -5
reborn I know what I was told from my Grandmother and what her views were on the trinity. I have sat in enough meetings, missions and Conventions to know what the Workers teach about the trinity doctrine !! RT, it seems you, MANY of the friends, the workers and your grandmother have NOT sat in these workers sermons at conventions speaking and teaching about the TRINITY.
Many of the early 2x2 workers and some current workers preached and believed in the TRI-UNITY and Jesus is God the Son.
John Long's (2x2 worker from 1898-1907) Journal in 1899 wrote:
William Irvine's Doctrines & Leaderships: "Concerning the principals of the Doctrine of Christ, he [Wm Irvine] was sound. He believed in the fall of man, in the Atonement, in the Trinity, in the Divinity of our Lord, in the immortality of the soul, in the resurrection of the body, the inspiration of the Bible, in Heaven for the saved, and in Hell for the lost. He believed in a personal Devil, the enemy of God and man. He believed and taught Repentance and that every person can be saved and know it, and that the conditions of Salvation were "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9.
He taught that every saved soul is indwelt by the Spirit of Christ; and that the life of Jesus, is the pattern for everyone to imitate and follow; and that the life of forsaking all for Christ's sake was the best to live. The fruits of that teaching resulted in farmers, shop keepers, domestic servants, school teachers, police, soldiers, and persons of every occupation forsaking all that they had to follow Jesus; and to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God."
2) Jack Carroll ( ex-overseer in Oregon, USA) - Sidney, Manitoba Convention - Monday Evening, November 9, 1914
"God is a trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Man is a trinity: body, soul, and spirit."
3) George Walker (1899 worker) www.trutharchive.net/george-walker---mccordsville-indiana---september-6-1975
You can't separate between the three persons in the Trinity because they are all one. They are used in this language to help our finite minds to understand Christ, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit suggests what a mother does for her children. He says, "When they put me on the cross, I will send the Holy Spirit, and He will be in you, teaching you, comforting you, and will be all that a mother could be to you. He can be closer to you than I can be in the flesh." God has made us in three parts, too. We say it is the body, soul, and the spirit. The Bible says sanctify spirit, soul, and body. The spirit is the part that God breathed in. You can't separate them.
4) Sam Charlton - The Word of God - Tacoma, Washington - 1958
God is a trinity and man is a trinity - body, soul, and spirit. It has been very wisely planned by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Heaven. They had a private conference and the subject was, “Let us create man in Our image and in Our Likeness.”
5) Leslie White (ex-overseer from Colorado, USA) 1st Oak Lodge Convention - Sunday morning, 2005
"One of the great mysteries that we have in our country and some of our Friends have been silly enough to have got involved in it, and that is that some try to explain the Trinity - The Father, Son and Holy Ghost, nobody can explain or understand that; none of us can understand that. No one can really, fully understand that, but we believe in those three and that they are one, but He is with God. He is God; He's not man; He's not an Angel; He's God-kind. He's like His Father; He's the Son. Just like a natural boy is like his dad, but he's not the dad, but he's got those qualities. He's God the Son; God the Father and God the Holy Ghost. "
6) elizabethcoleman said: 9/1/2015 This might do a few heads in: I have this from a recent convention attendee...
"Barry Barkley (Overseer of overseers in the east coast of USA) emphasized that Jesus was fully God but came to earth to become human to enable the lowly sinners such as ourselves to be justified through Him and be with Him in heaven. Barry spoke of the relationship between "God the Father and God the Son." He tied Psalm 22 -- the prophesied words and experience of Jesus -- with passages in the New Testament. These thoughts, perhaps, are nothing "new" to the Bible-believing Christian, but I appreciated the spirit and illumination with which Barry presented elements of our hope in the gospel -- and our need and joyous privilege to make Christ the focal point of all our living."
If you now have workers talking this way about God the Son, and Jesus being fully God, where does that leave F&W who strenuously oppose these "doctrines"? nathan we have already established that some Workers preached the trinity in the early years....but it was not preached in all parts of the world. Therefore who is right and who is wrong?
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Post by reborn on Dec 4, 2019 21:11:13 GMT -5
You may think that you know what some of the workers believe, however you do not have the ability to know what they all think! So why were they not teaching the trinity doctrine in the early 1900s in Australia ? Of course back then John Hardie ruled and what he said went. Have a look at Doug Parkers book and see what happened when he dared to question. I don’t read or quote Doug Parker.
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Post by Roselyn T on Dec 4, 2019 21:15:12 GMT -5
So why were they not teaching the trinity doctrine in the early 1900s in Australia ? Of course back then John Hardie ruled and what he said went. Have a look at Doug Parkers book and see what happened when he dared to question. I don’t read or quote Doug Parker. Why is that reborn ?
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Post by nathan on Dec 4, 2019 21:26:57 GMT -5
reborn I know what I was told from my Grandmother and what her views were on the trinity. I have sat in enough meetings, missions and Conventions to know what the Workers teach about the trinity doctrine !! RT, it seems you, MANY of the friends in Australia, the workers and your grandmother have NOT sat in these workers sermons at conventions speaking and teaching about the TRINITY.
Many of the early 2x2 workers and some current workers preached and believed in the TRI-UNITY and Jesus is God the Son.
John Long's (2x2 worker from 1898-1907) Journal in 1899 wrote:
William Irvine's Doctrines & Leaderships: "Concerning the principals of the Doctrine of Christ, he [Wm Irvine] was sound. He believed in the fall of man, in the Atonement, in the Trinity, in the Divinity of our Lord, in the immortality of the soul, in the resurrection of the body, the inspiration of the Bible, in Heaven for the saved, and in Hell for the lost. He believed in a personal Devil, the enemy of God and man. He believed and taught Repentance and that every person can be saved and know it, and that the conditions of Salvation were "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9.
He taught that every saved soul is indwelt by the Spirit of Christ; and that the life of Jesus, is the pattern for everyone to imitate and follow; and that the life of forsaking all for Christ's sake was the best to live. The fruits of that teaching resulted in farmers, shop keepers, domestic servants, school teachers, police, soldiers, and persons of every occupation forsaking all that they had to follow Jesus; and to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God."
2) Jack Carroll ( ex-overseer in Oregon, USA) - Sidney, Manitoba Convention - Monday Evening, November 9, 1914
"God is a trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Man is a trinity: body, soul, and spirit."
3) George Walker (1899 worker) www.trutharchive.net/george-walker---mccordsville-indiana---september-6-1975
You can't separate between the three persons in the Trinity because they are all one. They are used in this language to help our finite minds to understand Christ, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit suggests what a mother does for her children. He says, "When they put me on the cross, I will send the Holy Spirit, and He will be in you, teaching you, comforting you, and will be all that a mother could be to you. He can be closer to you than I can be in the flesh." God has made us in three parts, too. We say it is the body, soul, and the spirit. The Bible says sanctify spirit, soul, and body. The spirit is the part that God breathed in. You can't separate them.
4) Sam Charlton - The Word of God - Tacoma, Washington - 1958
God is a trinity and man is a trinity - body, soul, and spirit. It has been very wisely planned by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Heaven. They had a private conference and the subject was, “Let us create man in Our image and in Our Likeness.”
5) Leslie White (ex-overseer from Colorado, USA) 1st Oak Lodge Convention - Sunday morning, 2005
"One of the great mysteries that we have in our country and some of our Friends have been silly enough to have got involved in it, and that is that some try to explain the Trinity - The Father, Son and Holy Ghost, nobody can explain or understand that; none of us can understand that. No one can really, fully understand that, but we believe in those three and that they are one, but He is with God. He is God; He's not man; He's not an Angel; He's God-kind. He's like His Father; He's the Son. Just like a natural boy is like his dad, but he's not the dad, but he's got those qualities. He's God the Son; God the Father and God the Holy Ghost. "
6) elizabethcoleman said: 9/1/2015 This might do a few heads in: I have this from a recent convention attendee...
"Barry Barkley (Overseer of overseers in the east coast of USA) emphasized that Jesus was fully God but came to earth to become human to enable the lowly sinners such as ourselves to be justified through Him and be with Him in heaven. Barry spoke of the relationship between "God the Father and God the Son." He tied Psalm 22 -- the prophesied words and experience of Jesus -- with passages in the New Testament. These thoughts, perhaps, are nothing "new" to the Bible-believing Christian, but I appreciated the spirit and illumination with which Barry presented elements of our hope in the gospel -- and our need and joyous privilege to make Christ the focal point of all our living."
If you now have workers talking this way about God the Son, and Jesus being fully God, where does that leave F&W who strenuously oppose these "doctrines"?
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Post by Roselyn T on Dec 4, 2019 21:38:32 GMT -5
RT, it seems you, MANY of the friends, the workers and your grandmother have NOT sat in these workers sermons at conventions speaking and teaching about the TRINITY.
Many of the early 2x2 workers and some current workers preached and believed in the TRI-UNITY and Jesus is God the Son.
John Long's (2x2 worker from 1898-1907) Journal in 1899 wrote:
William Irvine's Doctrines & Leaderships: "Concerning the principals of the Doctrine of Christ, he [Wm Irvine] was sound. He believed in the fall of man, in the Atonement, in the Trinity, in the Divinity of our Lord, in the immortality of the soul, in the resurrection of the body, the inspiration of the Bible, in Heaven for the saved, and in Hell for the lost. He believed in a personal Devil, the enemy of God and man. He believed and taught Repentance and that every person can be saved and know it, and that the conditions of Salvation were "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9.
He taught that every saved soul is indwelt by the Spirit of Christ; and that the life of Jesus, is the pattern for everyone to imitate and follow; and that the life of forsaking all for Christ's sake was the best to live. The fruits of that teaching resulted in farmers, shop keepers, domestic servants, school teachers, police, soldiers, and persons of every occupation forsaking all that they had to follow Jesus; and to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God."
2) Jack Carroll ( ex-overseer in Oregon, USA) - Sidney, Manitoba Convention - Monday Evening, November 9, 1914
"God is a trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Man is a trinity: body, soul, and spirit."
3) George Walker (1899 worker) www.trutharchive.net/george-walker---mccordsville-indiana---september-6-1975
You can't separate between the three persons in the Trinity because they are all one. They are used in this language to help our finite minds to understand Christ, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit suggests what a mother does for her children. He says, "When they put me on the cross, I will send the Holy Spirit, and He will be in you, teaching you, comforting you, and will be all that a mother could be to you. He can be closer to you than I can be in the flesh." God has made us in three parts, too. We say it is the body, soul, and the spirit. The Bible says sanctify spirit, soul, and body. The spirit is the part that God breathed in. You can't separate them.
4) Sam Charlton - The Word of God - Tacoma, Washington - 1958
God is a trinity and man is a trinity - body, soul, and spirit. It has been very wisely planned by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Heaven. They had a private conference and the subject was, “Let us create man in Our image and in Our Likeness.”
5) Leslie White (ex-overseer from Colorado, USA) 1st Oak Lodge Convention - Sunday morning, 2005
"One of the great mysteries that we have in our country and some of our Friends have been silly enough to have got involved in it, and that is that some try to explain the Trinity - The Father, Son and Holy Ghost, nobody can explain or understand that; none of us can understand that. No one can really, fully understand that, but we believe in those three and that they are one, but He is with God. He is God; He's not man; He's not an Angel; He's God-kind. He's like His Father; He's the Son. Just like a natural boy is like his dad, but he's not the dad, but he's got those qualities. He's God the Son; God the Father and God the Holy Ghost. "
6) elizabethcoleman said: 9/1/2015 This might do a few heads in: I have this from a recent convention attendee...
"Barry Barkley (Overseer of overseers in the east coast of USA) emphasized that Jesus was fully God but came to earth to become human to enable the lowly sinners such as ourselves to be justified through Him and be with Him in heaven. Barry spoke of the relationship between "God the Father and God the Son." He tied Psalm 22 -- the prophesied words and experience of Jesus -- with passages in the New Testament. These thoughts, perhaps, are nothing "new" to the Bible-believing Christian, but I appreciated the spirit and illumination with which Barry presented elements of our hope in the gospel -- and our need and joyous privilege to make Christ the focal point of all our living."
If you now have workers talking this way about God the Son, and Jesus being fully God, where does that leave F&W who strenuously oppose these "doctrines"? nathan we have already established that some Workers preached the trinity in the early years....but it was not preached in all parts of the world. Therefore who is right and who is wrong?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Dec 4, 2019 22:15:49 GMT -5
And a companion. As far as I can see, his is a 1 x 1 ministry? ** That is NOT true. Didn't know you Wally and Jetmech are my companions on TMB. Birds of a feather flock together.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Dec 4, 2019 22:17:21 GMT -5
Unbelief is actually unbelievable! Before The children of Israel LEFT Egypt they had seen the power of God manifested before their eyes with the 10 players on the Eyptians. Many soon forget of God kindness and mercy on them when He opened the Red Sea and they walked on DRY ground. Because of their unbelief many of them over 20 yrs older didn't enter the promised land except a few adults entered. Just like today the unbelief/unbelievers will be left outside of the New heaven and new earth. I am sure you could find a better fairy tale to believe in Natie, have you read any of Hans Christian Anderson?
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 4, 2019 23:06:29 GMT -5
So why were they not teaching the trinity doctrine in the early 1900s in Australia ? Of course back then John Hardie ruled and what he said went. Have a look at Doug Parkers book and see what happened when he dared to question. I don’t read or quote Doug Parker. Reborn, -if you didn't "read" Doug Parkers book, -I would suggest you do. I am aware that the workers have denied it's veracity and told people not to read it.
But actually, what Parker researched simply put the meat onto the bones of what I already knew as a child some 80 years ago. My father had been in the work & I already knew some of the essentials of when the "TRUTH" actually started, -just not the whole story.
In my opinion Doug Parker's book, The Secret Sect, - seems very well researched and gives us an honest view as to when & how the fellowship, -which we called the *TRUTH,* did begin.
When someone doesn't read it, -they are denying themselves a lot of information that would help them understand their history.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 4, 2019 23:52:33 GMT -5
I don’t read or quote Doug Parker. Why is that reborn ? He was probably forbidden to read it. I'm waiting to hear that my book has been banned. I've been "invited" to take it to a book trade fair in London in the spring. I'm going to scratch up my pennies.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 5, 2019 0:01:54 GMT -5
I don’t read or quote Doug Parker. Reborn, -if you didn't "read" Doug Parkers book, -I would suggest you do. I am aware that the workers have denied it's veracity and told people not to read it.
But actually, what Parker researched simply put the meat onto the bones of what I already knew as a child some 80 years ago. My father had been in the work & I already knew some of the essentials of when the "TRUTH" actually started, -just not the whole story.
In my opinion Doug Parker's book, The Secret Sect, - seems very well researched and gives us an honest view as to when & how the fellowship, -which we called the *TRUTH,* did begin.
When someone doesn't read it, -they are denying themselves a lot of information that would help them understand their history.When I was growing up I understood that writing about the 2x2's was not tolerated. It didn't matter whether it was true or false or favorable or scandalous -- the Bible was sufficient reading and the workers' interpretation of EVERYTHING was the only safe thing to believe in. I began offending on that count in the fifth grade.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 5, 2019 0:10:34 GMT -5
He was probably forbidden to read it. I'm waiting to hear that my book has been banned. I've been "invited" to take it to a book trade fair in London in the spring. I'm going to scratch up my pennies. WOW! London?
Bob, please don't let your ego get out of hand to the point that you feel so far above our lowly group that you wouldn't want converse with us any more!
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 5, 2019 0:49:51 GMT -5
He was probably forbidden to read it. I'm waiting to hear that my book has been banned. I've been "invited" to take it to a book trade fair in London in the spring. I'm going to scratch up my pennies. WOW! London?
Bob, please don't let your ego get out of hand to the point that you feel so far above our lowly group that you wouldn't want converse with us any more! I realize I need all the friends I can get. This fair is not open to the public. It is for authors and publishers and media only. -- dealing--
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Post by reborn on Dec 5, 2019 1:10:12 GMT -5
He was probably forbidden to read it. I'm waiting to hear that my book has been banned. I've been "invited" to take it to a book trade fair in London in the spring. I'm going to scratch up my pennies. I do not read books on faith at all. Bible is it! Man is so prone to get it WRONG! Oh and everyone thinks they are a author nowadays! 😆
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Post by reborn on Dec 5, 2019 1:13:13 GMT -5
I don’t read or quote Doug Parker. Reborn, -if you didn't "read" Doug Parkers book, -I would suggest you do. I am aware that the workers have denied it's veracity and told people not to read it.
But actually, what Parker researched simply put the meat onto the bones of what I already knew as a child some 80 years ago. My father had been in the work & I already knew some of the essentials of when the "TRUTH" actually started, -just not the whole story.
In my opinion Doug Parker's book, The Secret Sect, - seems very well researched and gives us an honest view as to when & how the fellowship, -which we called the *TRUTH,* did begin.
When someone doesn't read it, -they are denying themselves a lot of information that would help them understand their history.
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Post by reborn on Dec 5, 2019 1:13:56 GMT -5
I don’t read or quote Doug Parker. Reborn, -if you didn't "read" Doug Parkers book, -I would suggest you do. I am aware that the workers have denied it's veracity and told people not to read it.
But actually, what Parker researched simply put the meat onto the bones of what I already knew as a child some 80 years ago. My father had been in the work & I already knew some of the essentials of when the "TRUTH" actually started, -just not the whole story.
In my opinion Doug Parker's book, The Secret Sect, - seems very well researched and gives us an honest view as to when & how the fellowship, -which we called the *TRUTH,* did begin.
When someone doesn't read it, -they are denying themselves a lot of information that would help them understand their history.No thanks! I’m going forward on to a heritage of joy! Not backwards!
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Post by Grant on Dec 5, 2019 1:17:01 GMT -5
A lot of the early workers had belonged to mainline churches which believed in the Trinity so would have brought these beliefs with them.
The Faith Mission, being a mainline Christian organisation would have also taught and believed in the Trinity. It was a few years later that the unchanging way began changing in key doctrines such as the Godhead. They pride themselves in unity but this key and important teaching of the Godhead tells me that there is not unity when they don't even agree on whether Jesus is God or not.
People got kicked out for preaching it. One of the reasons I left was because we had to speak the meeting talk and were not able to speak in testimony time about the Truth of the Bible. It all has to be interpreted the way we had been taught.
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Post by Grant on Dec 5, 2019 1:24:34 GMT -5
Reborn, -if you didn't "read" Doug Parkers book, -I would suggest you do. I am aware that the workers have denied it's veracity and told people not to read it.
But actually, what Parker researched simply put the meat onto the bones of what I already knew as a child some 80 years ago. My father had been in the work & I already knew some of the essentials of when the "TRUTH" actually started, -just not the whole story.
In my opinion Doug Parker's book, The Secret Sect, - seems very well researched and gives us an honest view as to when & how the fellowship, -which we called the *TRUTH,* did begin.
When someone doesn't read it, -they are denying themselves a lot of information that would help them understand their history.No thanks! I’m going forward on to a heritage of joy! Not backwards! Do you read what people write on this board reborn? Or do you consider it going backwards? For many who read the books by Doug and others, it was going forward to joy. Unleashing the chains that bound us and into a deeper relationship with God.
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Post by reborn on Dec 5, 2019 1:26:22 GMT -5
No thanks! I’m going forward on to a heritage of joy! Not backwards! Do you read what people write on this board reborn? Or do you consider it going backwards? For many who read the books by Doug and others, it was going forward to joy. Unleashing the chains that bound us. Everyone WILL have their own testimony!
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Post by Grant on Dec 5, 2019 1:30:41 GMT -5
Do you believe that your church is the New Testament church or one started by a man or men 120 years ago, Reborn?
Do you believe that those who attend other churches are saved or does your church have the monopoly on salvation?
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Post by Grant on Dec 5, 2019 1:34:22 GMT -5
He was probably forbidden to read it. I'm waiting to hear that my book has been banned. I've been "invited" to take it to a book trade fair in London in the spring. I'm going to scratch up my pennies. I do not read books on faith at all. Bible is it! Man is so prone to get it WRONG! Oh and everyone thinks they are a author nowadays! 😆 You do listen to the workers preach don't you and read convention notes? I see no difference between hearing or reading a sermon and reading a book on faith.
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Post by reborn on Dec 5, 2019 1:35:06 GMT -5
Do you believe that your church is the New Testament church or one started by a man or men 120 years ago, Reborn? Do you believe that those who attend other churches are saved or does your church have the monopoly on salvation? I don’t question these things- I am completely satisfied.
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Post by Grant on Dec 5, 2019 1:37:12 GMT -5
So you do not wish to answer. Evading questions is a tactic that the workers use. What about when Jesus said be ready to answer every man the reason for your faith.
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Post by reborn on Dec 5, 2019 1:37:53 GMT -5
I do not read books on faith at all. Bible is it! Man is so prone to get it WRONG! Oh and everyone thinks they are a author nowadays! 😆 You do listen to the workers preach don't you and read convention notes? I see no difference between hearing or reading a sermon and reading a book on faith. I vet out everything that I hear thru the Holy Spirit. Keep truth, discard unnecessary information!
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Post by reborn on Dec 5, 2019 1:51:40 GMT -5
So you do not wish to answer. Evading questions is a tactic that the workers use. What about when Jesus said be ready to answer every man the reason for your faith. Not evading at all- you like to rapid fire questions that you somehow think are trying to prove something??? Not quite sure what your agenda is-If you are actually seeking out truth- there is one source for that!
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Post by Grant on Dec 5, 2019 2:06:25 GMT -5
Just interested in gaining your perspective on things. Feel free to ask me anything you want.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 5, 2019 2:41:51 GMT -5
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