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Post by matisse on Dec 21, 2019 21:40:55 GMT -5
Are you going soft, wally? That wasn't even a dusting compared to the blizzards Lackman used to dump regularly on TMB. yeah but lackman was right.... Lackman was an unwitting Russian stooge.
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Post by reborn on Dec 21, 2019 22:09:41 GMT -5
No on has seen God the Father and lived. Moses saw his backsides on the mount. Many have seen God the Son, Jesus and lived. Moses talked face to face with God the Son in the tabernacle, as friend to friend. It seems quite impossible to talk to someone face to face and not see them. Many have seen the Holy Spirit God. ** We read in Genesis chapter 1 God walked and had fellowship with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. It was God the Christ, who had face to face fellowship with them but NOT God the Father. No man has seen God the Father at anytime, they ONLY heard His voice. Christ/God came in human form with two of his humans looking angels and he told Abraham and Sarah about the birth of their son Isaac in Genesis 18-19. We can’t forget about the fiery furnace appearance in the book of Daniel as well!
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Post by nathan on Dec 21, 2019 22:16:26 GMT -5
** We read in Genesis chapter 1 God walked and had fellowship with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. It was God the Christ, who had face to face fellowship with them but NOT God the Father. No man has seen God the Father at anytime, they ONLY heard His voice. Christ/God came in human form with two of his humans looking angels and he told Abraham and Sarah about the birth of their son Isaac in Genesis 18-19. We can’t forget about the fiery furnace appearance as well! ** Amen, sister, Christ had come in human form or as angel/Messenger of God the Father to earth MANY times. He came down as a man to wrestle with Jacob. He came as Melchisedek! The High Priest to the Most High God the Father. Christ was God Yahweh who drowned destroyed the Pharoah army and as a super power. It Christ/God fed the children of Israel with mana from heaven! He was the Rock that give them water to drink for 40 yrs Christ was their Protector.
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Post by reborn on Dec 21, 2019 22:18:41 GMT -5
While I was a believer, I had no idea what it might be like to become an atheist either. I don’t want to know! God has been with me very often when I had no one else. I know that as well as I know my name. Yes! Would not want to ever lose his presence! The comfort, love, and care! Nothing like it!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 21, 2019 22:22:37 GMT -5
Bible say's. John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Thank you, Speak!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 21, 2019 22:26:21 GMT -5
And just what you mean by that "profound?" statement, wally? a flurry of posts by an individual after STR sang her bit.... I have no idea why a kid’s song turns atheists inside out. Iis just a fun game song.
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Post by reborn on Dec 21, 2019 22:31:32 GMT -5
Snow, I know for a fact there is a God. I saw him twice. And no, I didn’t think to get witnesses or photos. Those kind of things are the farthest things from a humans mind when they see God! This begs the question whether you really saw God or whether you were merely duped into believing that you saw God or whether you simply made the claim up. It wouldn’t be the first time believers made something up here in an attempt to provide evidence of the existence of a God for which no evidence exists. It wouldn’t be the first time a believer was duped into believing they saw something which turned out not to be the case once the claim was scrutinised closely either. You’ll recall several believers who have come here claiming they have received a revelation from God that the bible was true but once they were pressed on this they couldn’t provide a single detail of the revelation. Not one word they heard or one thing they saw. They couldn’t tell when the revelation occurred or where the revelation occurred or even how they knew the so called revelation was from God. It was clearly either a case of religious delusion or a case of just making stuff up. Of course if you really saw God you’ll be able to provide the details of the encounter. I’d suggest that such a thing would stick in your mind. People can still recount the details of the time they met people such as JFK or Elvis many years after the event. I’d therefore be interested to know the following in order to determine whether your claim is credible or whether it is unfounded like those claims made by believers about having received a revelation. 1. Where were you and what were you doing when you claim to have seen God? 2. At what time of the day do you claim to have seen God? 3. How did you know it was God that you saw and how did you know it was the Christian God and not the Islamic God or one of the other Gods? 4. What did God look like? And was he solid or opaque? 5. Did God have ears or eyes or legs or a head? 6. Was God standing or sitting or floating and if so what was he standing or sitting or floating on? 7. Did you see God in black and white or in colour and, if in colour, what colour was God? 8. Did God make any noise whatsoever when you were looking at him and, if so, what type of noise did he make? 9. Was anyone else with you when you saw God and, if so, did they also see God? 10. How long did you see God for? E.g, was it more than 10:seconds? Longer than a minute? Longer than 10 minutes? 11. What size was God? e.g. was he big or small, fat or thin, two dimensional or three dimensional? 12. Is there any other possible plausible explanation for what you saw or thought you saw? Matt10 . Voting a thumbs down here. Much evidence,and personal testimonies have been presented. YOUR problem is it takes faith to receive- sadly you aren’t doing anything to help out with your own blindness.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 21, 2019 22:35:35 GMT -5
Guess I will have repeat what I said to Jet.
I don't think that you understand yet what being an atheist means. Not even after all the times we have tried to explain.
How could I define "God in a negative manner" or a "positive" manner when I don't even believe in a "god" -or for any god for that matter? There have been multiple "gods " created throughout the history of mankind. Which one should I choose.
I understand... Its not a difficult concept to grasp... Definition; a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods. Belief doesn't come easy, but for me prophecy sealed the deal. As I've repeatedly mentioned, Isaiah 53 & Psalms 22 provide divine evidence that no atheist can refute. God said it over a thousand years in advance and it happened to the letter. That should be game, set and match for doubters? jmo
Dan, -you must not understand what atheists believe and don't believe if you think that there are any "prophecies" in the bible which would constitute "evidence that no atheist can refute.
Aren't you aware that there are many "prophecies" in many other religious book don't accept either? Why? Because I don't accept prophecies period. Neither do I believe in any of the multitude of other religious books or their gods!
BTW, It isn't just "atheists" who refute what Isaiah 53 means..
Check out Tovia Singer Rabbi. Tovia Singer is an orthodox rabbi, the founder and director of Outreach Judaism. Here is one of his articles on that very subject Isaiah 53
Why did Isaiah 53 emerge as the most debated chapter in the Jewish Scriptures? Christians are so convinced that Jesus is the messiah, they are utterly astounded that the Jews, of all people, consider this claim preposterous.
Christians are bewildered by this rejection because it appears so obvious to them that every aspect of Jesus’ life—from his miraculous conception to his crucifixion and resurrection—was clearly predicted in the Jewish Scriptures. They wonder why the Jews then fail to embrace Jesus as their messiah.
Can’t they grasp that the prophecies in their own Bible predict that the messiah would suffer and die and then rise from the grave? How can a people who produced so many Nobel Prize winners be so dense? Are they just plain stubborn? Why then did the Jews reject the claim that the messiah would suffer and die for the sins of the world?
The answer is quite simple: Jewish messianic expectations are firmly rooted in hundreds of prophecies recorded throughout the Hebrew Bible. And Jews who are anticipating a messiah are not looking for anyone remotely like Jesus. They are awaiting the messiah who will destroy the enemies of God, usher in worldwide peace, the universal knowledge of God, the ingathering of the exiles, the resurrection of the dead, and the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem.
Who then was Jesus?
While it is impossible to answer this question with any certainty because no contemporaneous historian mentioned Jesus, it is possible that he was one of hundreds—perhaps thousands—of obscure, itinerant preachers during the first century who came from the backwoods of the Galilee, wound up on the wrong side of the law, and was summarily executed by the empire. He then would have been one of hundreds of thousands of Jews who were crucified by the Romans during the turbulent first century. For Jews, calling Jesus the messiah and God, Creator of the universe, is foolish and blasphemous.
But doesn’t Isaiah 53, which Christians frequently cite, predict that the messiah would be tortured and killed for the sins of mankind? The answer to this question is simple as well: the messiah is never mentioned in Isaiah 53. Look it up for yourself!
As you will see armed with only a Bible and Rabbi Tovia Singer’s two-part audio program and written teachings on this chapter, originally this passage had nothing to do with a future messiah.
This chapter was ripped out of context and key words were mistranslated. Prior to the advent of Christianity, there was not a single prediction by anyone that the messiah would be executed for the sins of mankind.
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Post by reborn on Dec 21, 2019 22:43:07 GMT -5
I understand... Its not a difficult concept to grasp... Definition; a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods. Belief doesn't come easy, but for me prophecy sealed the deal. As I've repeatedly mentioned, Isaiah 53 & Psalms 22 provide divine evidence that no atheist can refute. God said it over a thousand years in advance and it happened to the letter. That should be game, set and match for doubters? jmo
Dan, -you must not understand what atheists believe and don't believe if you think that there are any "prophecies" in the bible which would constitute "evidence that no atheist can refute.
Aren't you aware that there are many "prophecies" in many other religious book don't accept either? Why? Because I don't accept prophecies period. Neither do I believe in any of the multitude of other religious books or their gods!
BTW, It isn't just "atheists" who refute what Isaiah 53 means..
Check out Tovia Singer Rabbi. Tovia Singer is an orthodox rabbi, the founder and director of Outreach Judaism. Here is one of his articles on that very subject Isaiah 53
Why did Isaiah 53 emerge as the most debated chapter in the Jewish Scriptures? Christians are so convinced that Jesus is the messiah, they are utterly astounded that the Jews, of all people, consider this claim preposterous.
Christians are bewildered by this rejection because it appears so obvious to them that every aspect of Jesus’ life—from his miraculous conception to his crucifixion and resurrection—was clearly predicted in the Jewish Scriptures. They wonder why the Jews then fail to embrace Jesus as their messiah.
Can’t they grasp that the prophecies in their own Bible predict that the messiah would suffer and die and then rise from the grave? How can a people who produced so many Nobel Prize winners be so dense? Are they just plain stubborn? Why then did the Jews reject the claim that the messiah would suffer and die for the sins of the world?
The answer is quite simple: Jewish messianic expectations are firmly rooted in hundreds of prophecies recorded throughout the Hebrew Bible. And Jews who are anticipating a messiah are not looking for anyone remotely like Jesus. They are awaiting the messiah who will destroy the enemies of God, usher in worldwide peace, the universal knowledge of God, the ingathering of the exiles, the resurrection of the dead, and the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem.
Who then was Jesus?
While it is impossible to answer this question with any certainty because no contemporaneous historian mentioned Jesus, it is possible that he was one of hundreds—perhaps thousands—of obscure, itinerant preachers during the first century who came from the backwoods of the Galilee, wound up on the wrong side of the law, and was summarily executed by the empire. He then would have been one of hundreds of thousands of Jews who were crucified by the Romans during the turbulent first century. For Jews, calling Jesus the messiah and God, Creator of the universe, is foolish and blasphemous.
But doesn’t Isaiah 53, which Christians frequently cite, predict that the messiah would be tortured and killed for the sins of mankind? The answer to this question is simple as well: the messiah is never mentioned in Isaiah 53. Look it up for yourself!
As you will see armed with only a Bible and Rabbi Tovia Singer’s two-part audio program and written teachings on this chapter, originally this passage had nothing to do with a future messiah.
This chapter was ripped out of context and key words were mistranslated. Prior to the advent of Christianity, there was not a single prediction by anyone that the messiah would be executed for the sins of mankind. The apostle Paul answered this- Romans 11:25- Go ahead and read that entire chapter 11 of Romans- you will find the answer there.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 21, 2019 22:52:37 GMT -5
your ASSuming the bible is talking about an eclipse the bible never says that though... however if God can stop the earth from rotating all day like he did in the OT he could certainly stop the earth and moon from moving for 3 hours.... If it stopped rotating at all, you and I would not be here, neither would our planet earth. Not even a nice try. It was not me assuming that it was an eclipse. I was pointing out why it could not be an eclipse. He doesn't feel it moving, so maybe he thinks you wouldn't feel it stopping.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 21, 2019 22:58:00 GMT -5
While I was a believer, I had no idea what it might be like to become an atheist either. I don’t want to know! God has been with me very often when I had no one else. I know that as well as I know my name. Anyone who claims not to want to know something shouldn't brag about knowing so much about it.
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Post by Annan on Dec 21, 2019 23:17:45 GMT -5
a flurry of posts by an individual after STR sang her bit.... I have no idea why a kid’s song turns atheists inside out. Iis just a fun game song. One Atheist. One. You're right. You have no idea. As Wally would say, don't ASSume you know what I'm thinking or going with my posts. It's obvious you haven't been paying attention.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 21, 2019 23:23:50 GMT -5
I have no idea why a kid’s song turns atheists inside out. Iis just a fun game song. One Atheist. One. You're right. You have no idea. As Wally would say, don't ASSume you know what I'm thinking or going with my posts. It's obvious you haven't been paying attention. I know why you don’t cotton to it because it says a God has the whole world in his hands, etc. What I don’t understand why such a fun song would set off such a rejection of God from people who claim to be so smart and are adults. If it bugs you, don’t take it out on other people, talk to the person who wrote it! But no, you’ve got to denigrate everybody that believes in God over a child’s song.
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Post by Annan on Dec 21, 2019 23:30:09 GMT -5
One Atheist. One. You're right. You have no idea. As Wally would say, don't ASSume you know what I'm thinking or going with my posts. It's obvious you haven't been paying attention. I know why you don’t cotton to it because it says a God has the whole world in his hands, etc. What I don’t understand why such a fun song would set off such a rejection of God from people who claim to be so smart and are adults. If it bugs you, don’t take it out on other people, talk to the person who wrote it! But no, you’ve got to denigrate everybody that believes in God over a child’s song. It was aimed at you. One person. There you go assuming again. I wasn't upset with your post. You claim your god has the whole world in his hands. I took that to mean that he cares about the whole world. I was pointing out all the evil that your god allows. Blaming evil on an evil being/satan makes no sense. God created satan knowing satan would become aatan and all that would mean to the world. Yeah. He cares.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 21, 2019 23:47:00 GMT -5
I know why you don’t cotton to it because it says a God has the whole world in his hands, etc. What I don’t understand why such a fun song would set off such a rejection of God from people who claim to be so smart and are adults. If it bugs you, don’t take it out on other people, talk to the person who wrote it! But no, you’ve got to denigrate everybody that believes in God over a child’s song. It was aimed at you. One person. There you go assuming again. I wasn't upset with your post. You claim your god has the whole world in his hands. I took that to mean that he cares about the whole world. I was pointing out all the evil that your god allows. Blaming evil on an evil being/satan makes no sense. God created satan knowing satan would become aatan and all that would mean to the world. Yeah. He cares. You ASSume what I said. I just quoted a child’s song. Period.
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Post by Annan on Dec 22, 2019 0:04:34 GMT -5
It was aimed at you. One person. There you go assuming again. I wasn't upset with your post. You claim your god has the whole world in his hands. I took that to mean that he cares about the whole world. I was pointing out all the evil that your god allows. Blaming evil on an evil being/satan makes no sense. God created satan knowing satan would become aatan and all that would mean to the world. Yeah. He cares. You ASSume what I said. I just quoted a child’s song. Period. Touché
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Post by rational on Dec 22, 2019 0:16:45 GMT -5
No on has seen God the Father and lived. Moses saw his backsides on the mount. Many have seen God the Son, Jesus and lived. Moses talked face to face with God the Son in the tabernacle, as friend to friend. It seems quite impossible to talk to someone face to face and not see them. Many have seen the Holy Spirit God. Exodus 33:11 - And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.I assume this was the verse you referenced. How does 'The LORD' become 'God the Son'?
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Post by rational on Dec 22, 2019 0:26:23 GMT -5
Voting a thumbs down here. Much evidence,and personal testimonies have been presented. YOUR problem is it takes faith to receive- sadly you aren’t doing anything to help out with your own blindness. Sounds like you are suggesting the willing suspension of disbelief in order to learn the truth. That does not seem like a good way to learn the truth.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 22, 2019 1:15:18 GMT -5
No on has seen God the Father and lived. Moses saw his backsides on the mount. Many have seen God the Son, Jesus and lived. Moses talked face to face with God the Son in the tabernacle, as friend to friend. It seems quite impossible to talk to someone face to face and not see them. Many have seen the Holy Spirit God. Exodus 33:11 - And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.I assume this was the verse you referenced. How does 'The LORD' become 'God the Son'? I’m not going into that with you. It’s been discussed many times already.
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Post by Dan on Dec 22, 2019 1:25:38 GMT -5
I understand... Its not a difficult concept to grasp... Definition; a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods. Belief doesn't come easy, but for me prophecy sealed the deal. As I've repeatedly mentioned, Isaiah 53 & Psalms 22 provide divine evidence that no atheist can refute. God said it over a thousand years in advance and it happened to the letter. That should be game, set and match for doubters? jmo
Dan, -you must not understand what atheists believe and don't believe if you think that there are any "prophecies" in the bible which would constitute "evidence that no atheist can refute.
Aren't you aware that there are many "prophecies" in many other religious book don't accept either? Why? Because I don't accept prophecies period. Neither do I believe in any of the multitude of other religious books or their gods!
BTW, It isn't just "atheists" who refute what Isaiah 53 means..
Check out Tovia Singer Rabbi. Tovia Singer is an orthodox rabbi, the founder and director of Outreach Judaism. Here is one of his articles on that very subject Isaiah 53
Why did Isaiah 53 emerge as the most debated chapter in the Jewish Scriptures? Christians are so convinced that Jesus is the messiah, they are utterly astounded that the Jews, of all people, consider this claim preposterous.
Christians are bewildered by this rejection because it appears so obvious to them that every aspect of Jesus’ life—from his miraculous conception to his crucifixion and resurrection—was clearly predicted in the Jewish Scriptures. They wonder why the Jews then fail to embrace Jesus as their messiah.
Can’t they grasp that the prophecies in their own Bible predict that the messiah would suffer and die and then rise from the grave? How can a people who produced so many Nobel Prize winners be so dense? Are they just plain stubborn? Why then did the Jews reject the claim that the messiah would suffer and die for the sins of the world?
The answer is quite simple: Jewish messianic expectations are firmly rooted in hundreds of prophecies recorded throughout the Hebrew Bible. And Jews who are anticipating a messiah are not looking for anyone remotely like Jesus. They are awaiting the messiah who will destroy the enemies of God, usher in worldwide peace, the universal knowledge of God, the ingathering of the exiles, the resurrection of the dead, and the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem.
Who then was Jesus?
While it is impossible to answer this question with any certainty because no contemporaneous historian mentioned Jesus, it is possible that he was one of hundreds—perhaps thousands—of obscure, itinerant preachers during the first century who came from the backwoods of the Galilee, wound up on the wrong side of the law, and was summarily executed by the empire. He then would have been one of hundreds of thousands of Jews who were crucified by the Romans during the turbulent first century. For Jews, calling Jesus the messiah and God, Creator of the universe, is foolish and blasphemous.
But doesn’t Isaiah 53, which Christians frequently cite, predict that the messiah would be tortured and killed for the sins of mankind? The answer to this question is simple as well: the messiah is never mentioned in Isaiah 53. Look it up for yourself!
As you will see armed with only a Bible and Rabbi Tovia Singer’s two-part audio program and written teachings on this chapter, originally this passage had nothing to do with a future messiah.
This chapter was ripped out of context and key words were mistranslated. Prior to the advent of Christianity, there was not a single prediction by anyone that the messiah would be executed for the sins of mankind.
Of course the Jews would need to disqualify the obvious prophesies, otherwise they'd be Christians. Yes, the Jews were looking for another earthly king, one who would physically deliver them from captivity (yet again). Even Judas thought Christ was the one who would liberate them from Roman rule. But prophecy proclaimed a spiritual deliverer, one who would defeat death, sin, and the devil. Jesus announced himself in Luke 4:18-19 when he read Isaiah's prophecy; "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord," (Isaiah 61:1-2). This was the first advent, when Messiah would bring spiritual deliverance. But Christ stopped reading mid-verse for a reason, the remaining said; "To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God" (Isaiah 61:2). This 'day of vengeance' did not occur at his first coming, as the Jews anticipated, but will occur at the second advent when Messiah comes in judgement. But those who rejected his Truth and sacrifice of the first advent, won't be delivered from anything at his second coming. "For I the Lord love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles" (Isaiah 61:8-9). In short, the Jews were looking for an earthly deliverer who would liberate them and set-up a kingdom on earth. But Jesus brought spiritual deliverance and a new covenant that liberated us from death (sin).
You don't need to believe the prophecies, but it certainly seems evident to me that Psalms 22 & Isaiah 53 can only be describing Christ, there is simply is no other that fits the detailed description. The only way to explain it away is to somehow twist the obvious characterization of Messiah and insinuate that its talking about someone or something else. "He was despised and rejected by men" makes the Jews part of the prophecy.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 22, 2019 1:44:15 GMT -5
Dan, -you must not understand what atheists believe and don't believe if you think that there are any "prophecies" in the bible which would constitute "evidence that no atheist can refute.
Aren't you aware that there are many "prophecies" in many other religious book don't accept either? Why? Because I don't accept prophecies period. Neither do I believe in any of the multitude of other religious books or their gods!
BTW, It isn't just "atheists" who refute what Isaiah 53 means..
Check out Tovia Singer Rabbi. Tovia Singer is an orthodox rabbi, the founder and director of Outreach Judaism. Here is one of his articles on that very subject Isaiah 53
Why did Isaiah 53 emerge as the most debated chapter in the Jewish Scriptures? Christians are so convinced that Jesus is the messiah, they are utterly astounded that the Jews, of all people, consider this claim preposterous.
Christians are bewildered by this rejection because it appears so obvious to them that every aspect of Jesus’ life—from his miraculous conception to his crucifixion and resurrection—was clearly predicted in the Jewish Scriptures. They wonder why the Jews then fail to embrace Jesus as their messiah.
Can’t they grasp that the prophecies in their own Bible predict that the messiah would suffer and die and then rise from the grave? How can a people who produced so many Nobel Prize winners be so dense? Are they just plain stubborn? Why then did the Jews reject the claim that the messiah would suffer and die for the sins of the world?
The answer is quite simple: Jewish messianic expectations are firmly rooted in hundreds of prophecies recorded throughout the Hebrew Bible. And Jews who are anticipating a messiah are not looking for anyone remotely like Jesus. They are awaiting the messiah who will destroy the enemies of God, usher in worldwide peace, the universal knowledge of God, the ingathering of the exiles, the resurrection of the dead, and the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem.
Who then was Jesus?
While it is impossible to answer this question with any certainty because no contemporaneous historian mentioned Jesus, it is possible that he was one of hundreds—perhaps thousands—of obscure, itinerant preachers during the first century who came from the backwoods of the Galilee, wound up on the wrong side of the law, and was summarily executed by the empire. He then would have been one of hundreds of thousands of Jews who were crucified by the Romans during the turbulent first century. For Jews, calling Jesus the messiah and God, Creator of the universe, is foolish and blasphemous.
But doesn’t Isaiah 53, which Christians frequently cite, predict that the messiah would be tortured and killed for the sins of mankind? The answer to this question is simple as well: the messiah is never mentioned in Isaiah 53. Look it up for yourself!
As you will see armed with only a Bible and Rabbi Tovia Singer’s two-part audio program and written teachings on this chapter, originally this passage had nothing to do with a future messiah.
This chapter was ripped out of context and key words were mistranslated. Prior to the advent of Christianity, there was not a single prediction by anyone that the messiah would be executed for the sins of mankind.
Of course the Jews would need to disqualify the obvious prophesies, otherwise they'd be Christians. Yes, the Jews were looking for another earthly king, one who would physically deliver them from captivity (yet again). Even Judas thought Christ was the one who would liberate them from Roman rule. But prophecy proclaimed a spiritual deliverer, one who would defeat death, sin, and the devil. Jesus announced himself in Luke 4:18-19 when he read Isaiah's prophecy; "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord," (Isaiah 61:1-2). This was the first advent, when Messiah would bring spiritual deliverance. But Christ stopped reading mid-verse for a reason, the remaining said; "To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God" (Isaiah 61:2). This 'day of vengeance' did not occur at his first coming, as the Jews anticipated, but will occur at the second advent when Messiah comes in judgement. But those who rejected his Truth and sacrifice of the first advent, won't be delivered from anything at his second coming. "For I the Lord love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles" (Isaiah 61:8-9). In short, the Jews were looking for an earthly deliverer who would liberate them and set-up a kingdom on earth. But Jesus brought spiritual deliverance and a new covenant that liberated us from death (sin).
You don't need to believe the prophecies, but it certainly seems evident to me that Psalms 22 & Isaiah 53 can only be describing Christ, there is simply is no other that fits the detailed description. The only way to explain it away is to somehow twist the obvious characterization of Messiah and insinuate that its talking about someone or something else. "He was despised and rejected by men" makes the Jews part of the prophecy.
Thank you, Dan! This is very good!
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Post by nathan on Dec 22, 2019 1:58:36 GMT -5
No on has seen God the Father and lived. Moses saw his backsides on the mount. Many have seen God the Son, Jesus and lived. Moses talked face to face with God the Son in the tabernacle, as friend to friend. It seems quite impossible to talk to someone face to face and not see them. Many have seen the Holy Spirit God. Exodus 33:11 - And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.I assume this was the verse you referenced. How does 'The LORD' become 'God the Son'? In the Old Testament, sometimes one of the titles for God is set in type with all capitals, “LORD.” At other times, there are both the upper and lower case, “Lord.” Why does this difference exist? This type-setting format is found in most of the English translations that have been produced over the past several centuries. The notable exception is the American Standard Version (1901), which uses the term “Jehovah” rather than “LORD.” In these common versions, the translators are attempting to provide a clue to the English reader that different Hebrew words were found in the original text. LORD (all caps or small caps) reflects the original term yhwh (found 6,823 times), while Lord (standard capitalization) is the English rendition of the Hebrew Adonai (used some 300 times). As suggested above, one of the names for God, as conveyed in Hebrew, was yhwh (four consonants). Because the Jews considered this title to be very sacred, they did not pronounce it.Eventually, the scribes borrowed vowels from the name adonai based upon a point system, which reflected the way the language was spoken. Vowels were thus inserted into the sacred four-letter name (called the tetragrammaton—“four letters”). This eventually evolved into the hybrid word “Jehovah” around the beginning of the twelfth century A.D. The Hebrew term yhwh is believed to derive from the root hwy, meaning “to be.” The name suggests that God simply is, i.e., he possesses an underived existence; he is the eternal “I AM” (cf. Exodus 3:14—especially see the footnote in the ASV; cf. also John 8:58). The LORD or Yahweh title is claimed by Christ/Jesus in John 8:58. www.christiancourier.com/articles/305-lord-and-lord-whats-the-difference
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Dec 22, 2019 2:32:27 GMT -5
If it stopped rotating at all, you and I would not be here, neither would our planet earth. Not even a nice try. It was not me assuming that it was an eclipse. I was pointing out why it could not be an eclipse. He doesn't feel it moving, so maybe he thinks you wouldn't feel it stopping. has the earth ever moved for Wally?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2019 2:35:37 GMT -5
This begs the question whether you really saw God or whether you were merely duped into believing that you saw God or whether you simply made the claim up. It wouldn’t be the first time believers made something up here in an attempt to provide evidence of the existence of a God for which no evidence exists. It wouldn’t be the first time a believer was duped into believing they saw something which turned out not to be the case once the claim was scrutinised closely either. You’ll recall several believers who have come here claiming they have received a revelation from God that the bible was true but once they were pressed on this they couldn’t provide a single detail of the revelation. Not one word they heard or one thing they saw. They couldn’t tell when the revelation occurred or where the revelation occurred or even how they knew the so called revelation was from God. It was clearly either a case of religious delusion or a case of just making stuff up. Of course if you really saw God you’ll be able to provide the details of the encounter. I’d suggest that such a thing would stick in your mind. People can still recount the details of the time they met people such as JFK or Elvis many years after the event. I’d therefore be interested to know the following in order to determine whether your claim is credible or whether it is unfounded like those claims made by believers about having received a revelation. 1. Where were you and what were you doing when you claim to have seen God? 2. At what time of the day do you claim to have seen God? 3. How did you know it was God that you saw and how did you know it was the Christian God and not the Islamic God or one of the other Gods? 4. What did God look like? And was he solid or opaque? 5. Did God have ears or eyes or legs or a head? 6. Was God standing or sitting or floating and if so what was he standing or sitting or floating on? 7. Did you see God in black and white or in colour and, if in colour, what colour was God? 8. Did God make any noise whatsoever when you were looking at him and, if so, what type of noise did he make? 9. Was anyone else with you when you saw God and, if so, did they also see God? 10. How long did you see God for? E.g, was it more than 10:seconds? Longer than a minute? Longer than 10 minutes? 11. What size was God? e.g. was he big or small, fat or thin, two dimensional or three dimensional? 12. Is there any other possible plausible explanation for what you saw or thought you saw? Matt10 . Voting a thumbs down here. Much evidence,and personal testimonies have been presented. YOUR problem is it takes faith to receive- sadly you aren’t doing anything to help out with your own blindness. It is unsurprising that you vote it down because you were one of those I referred to who had boldly claimed to have had a revelation in which God taught you that the bible was true but when I pressed you to provide details of this revelation you couldn’t provide any details whatsoever. When I put it to you that the revelation you claimed to have had was merely a figment of your imagination you had no response. Your approach was that it was up to me to prove that you didn’t have a revelation which is just silly. It’s a classic deflection tactic used by believers to avoid providing evidence to support a claim which should be available if the claim was true. But no evidence is provided because no evidence exists and no evidence exists because the claim isn’t true. No doubt you would also fail to provide the evidence that you claim exists in your response here just as STR will fail to provide the details I have requested that would demonstrate that she really did see God. You will see a pattern here I’m sure. People don’t really have revelations from God and neither do they really see God. Such claims are false although that doesn’t mean that the believer doesn’t honestly and sincerely believe them. It’s just that the believer is suffering from religious delusion which causes them to believe things that aren’t true. Obviously religious believers don’t call it religious delusion. They call it faith. So when you tell me that my problem is that I don’t have faith to believe you are correct. I don’t have faith. I don’t have religious delusion. I am no longer religiously deluded although I recognise that I once was. When I had faith I believed all sorts of crazy things. So I don’t see lack of faith as a problem. I see having faith as being a problem. Faith makes you believe things that aren’t true. Faith is an excuse for believing in things that aren’t true. Faith makes you blind. I can’t imagine how frustrating it must be to be a believer and continually be asked to provide evidence to support things that you believe to be true but you cannot provide the evidence for because it just isn’t there. I suspect it’s rather like being a member of the flat earth society. You can see why 2x2 workers are smart not to allow questions at gospel meetings. If you are making claims that just aren’t true or that don’t add up it is better not to make them in a public forum where they are subject to scrutiny. Making unsupported claims in public forums can leave one looking very foolish if one is challenged on them and can’t provide evidence to support them. Faith is preserved best in environments where it isn’t challenged and among those who are susceptible to believing things without evidence. Matt10
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2019 3:39:31 GMT -5
Voting a thumbs down here. Much evidence,and personal testimonies have been presented. YOUR problem is it takes faith to receive- sadly you aren’t doing anything to help out with your own blindness. It is unsurprising that you vote it down because you were one of those I referred to who had boldly claimed to have had a revelation in which God taught you that the bible was true but when I pressed you to provide details of this revelation you couldn’t provide any details whatsoever. When I put it to you that the revelation you claimed to have had was merely a figment of your imagination you had no response. Your approach was that it was up to me to prove that you didn’t have a revelation which is just silly. It’s a classic deflection tactic used by believers to avoid providing evidence to support a claim which should be available if the claim was true. But no evidence is provided because no evidence exists and no evidence exists because the claim isn’t true. No doubt you would also fail to provide the evidence that you claim exists in your response here just as STR will fail to provide the details I have requested that would demonstrate that she really did see God. You will see a pattern here I’m sure. People don’t really have revelations from God and neither do they really see God. Such claims are false although that doesn’t mean that the believer doesn’t honestly and sincerely believe them. It’s just that the believer is suffering from religious delusion which causes them to believe things that aren’t true. Obviously religious believers don’t call it religious delusion. They call it faith. So when you tell me that my problem is that I don’t have faith to believe you are correct. I don’t have faith. I don’t have religious delusion. I am no longer religiously deluded although I recognise that I once was. When I had faith I believed all sorts of crazy things. So I don’t see lack of faith as a problem. I see having faith as being a problem. Faith makes you believe things that aren’t true. Faith is an excuse for believing in things that aren’t true. Faith makes you blind. I can’t imagine how frustrating it must be to be a believer and continually be asked to provide evidence to support things that you believe to be true but you cannot provide the evidence for because it just isn’t there. I suspect it’s rather like being a member of the flat earth society. You can see why 2x2 workers are smart not to allow questions at gospel meetings. If you are making claims that just aren’t true or that don’t add up it is better not to make them in a public forum where they are subject to scrutiny. Making unsupported claims in public forums can leave one looking very foolish if one is challenged on them and can’t provide evidence to support them. Faith is preserved best in environments where it isn’t challenged and among those who are susceptible to believing things without evidence. Matt10 this is a classic example of why so many are lost with little time left. some people just don't want to be saved...
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 22, 2019 4:02:45 GMT -5
He doesn't feel it moving, so maybe he thinks you wouldn't feel it stopping. has the earth ever moved for Wally? I'm quite sure he believes in earthquakes.
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Post by mountain on Dec 22, 2019 5:54:24 GMT -5
Matt 10, this level of investigation seems to be on a par with that applied to Irishmen staggering out of a pub, having over-imbibed on the Guinness somewhat and later claiming they had an encounter with the 'Little People,' i.e. leprechauns. Usually those stories turned out to be a load of Blarney! Are you trying to tell me that Leprechauns are not real? CWSM please give extra careful thought to my posts. I did not even go as far as suggesting leprechauns are not real. I was questioning the validity of personal encounters made by certain people, e.g. drunks!
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Post by reborn on Dec 22, 2019 6:09:41 GMT -5
Voting a thumbs down here. Much evidence,and personal testimonies have been presented. YOUR problem is it takes faith to receive- sadly you aren’t doing anything to help out with your own blindness. It is unsurprising that you vote it down because you were one of those I referred to who had boldly claimed to have had a revelation in which God taught you that the bible was true but when I pressed you to provide details of this revelation you couldn’t provide any details whatsoever. When I put it to you that the revelation you claimed to have had was merely a figment of your imagination you had no response. Your approach was that it was up to me to prove that you didn’t have a revelation which is just silly. It’s a classic deflection tactic used by believers to avoid providing evidence to support a claim which should be available if the claim was true. But no evidence is provided because no evidence exists and no evidence exists because the claim isn’t true. No doubt you would also fail to provide the evidence that you claim exists in your response here just as STR will fail to provide the details I have requested that would demonstrate that she really did see God. You will see a pattern here I’m sure. People don’t really have revelations from God and neither do they really see God. Such claims are false although that doesn’t mean that the believer doesn’t honestly and sincerely believe them. It’s just that the believer is suffering from religious delusion which causes them to believe things that aren’t true. Obviously religious believers don’t call it religious delusion. They call it faith. So when you tell me that my problem is that I don’t have faith to believe you are correct. I don’t have faith. I don’t have religious delusion. I am no longer religiously deluded although I recognise that I once was. When I had faith I believed all sorts of crazy things. So I don’t see lack of faith as a problem. I see having faith as being a problem. Faith makes you believe things that aren’t true. Faith is an excuse for believing in things that aren’t true. Faith makes you blind. I can’t imagine how frustrating it must be to be a believer and continually be asked to provide evidence to support things that you believe to be true but you cannot provide the evidence for because it just isn’t there. I suspect it’s rather like being a member of the flat earth society. You can see why 2x2 workers are smart not to allow questions at gospel meetings. If you are making claims that just aren’t true or that don’t add up it is better not to make them in a public forum where they are subject to scrutiny. Making unsupported claims in public forums can leave one looking very foolish if one is challenged on them and can’t provide evidence to support them. Faith is preserved best in environments where it isn’t challenged and among those who are susceptible to believing things without evidence. Matt10 You seem to have a very strong desire to tell others they are wrong. Very telling.
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