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Post by Dennis J on Oct 24, 2019 11:22:09 GMT -5
From "The Australian" newspaper. The court heard Ms Fraser grew up in a small religious cult, Two by Two, and was “disowned by extended family members” when she made the decision to leave. This is another sad case of how ex's are treated in Victoria. It should not be that way and let us hope with the talk about change, that this issue is addressed. Shunning is contrary to Christian teachings, and certainly not humanistic. Not only those who have left by their own choice but also for those ejected by overseeing workers without allowing the victim any defense against false charges. Kangaroo court method. Had perceived threats upon my own life also. Absolutely no form of justice for the falsely accused. Still ache in my core for the loss of parental and sibling love.
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Post by snow on Oct 24, 2019 12:11:03 GMT -5
Shunning is a behaviour of cult type Churches, not part of the conduct of main stream Churches. It is wrong, very wrong and should be called out as such. Those of us who have been treated in such a way, know how hurtful it is. The people who treat people like that, lack compassion, and are not aware of the damage they cause. Not entirely redback. We have people in our group that are shunned by families that go to the mainstream churches when they told their family they no longer believed. It's an individual mindset imo. The bible has many things in it that can be interpreted in a good way by those so inclined and in a bad way by those so inclined.
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Post by vanillagorilla on Oct 24, 2019 12:33:17 GMT -5
From "The Australian" newspaper. The court heard Ms Fraser grew up in a small religious cult, Two by Two, and was “disowned by extended family members” when she made the decision to leave. This is another sad case of how ex's are treated in Victoria. It should not be that way and let us hope with the talk about change, that this issue is addressed. Shunning is contrary to Christian teachings, and certainly not humanistic. no one should be killed for leaving or joining a church but the case for shunning is biblical for someone who goes off the rails in the church. Christ said so here: Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. paul spoke similarly here: 1Co_5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. You know what's crazy here? when people get shunned for leaving the 2x2 and go to a mainstream church, but somehow get lumped into the "goes off the rails in the church." They leave one Christian group for another one and get the heathen treatment. Do people justify their behavior to shun these folks? Apparently they must. I see it as a huge glaring red flag- enough to turn my back without regret.
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Post by havejoy on Oct 24, 2019 14:40:13 GMT -5
no one should be killed for leaving or joining a church but the case for shunning is biblical for someone who goes off the rails in the church. Christ said so here: Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. paul spoke similarly here: 1Co_5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. Since when is leaving your church and going to another 'going off the rails'? Again going to another church is seem as a bigger threat than leaving and not going anywhere. Yes I can completely relate to this. We left and went to a different church and it is viewed as SO MUCH WORSE then leaving and not going anywhere. I have been publicly shunned by my family. It hurts beyond words. It is IMO a form of abuse and I will not stand for it. It is in NO WAY Christian.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2019 15:13:46 GMT -5
no one should be killed for leaving or joining a church but the case for shunning is biblical for someone who goes off the rails in the church. Christ said so here: Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. paul spoke similarly here: 1Co_5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. Since when is leaving your church and going to another 'going off the rails'? Again going to another church is seem as a bigger threat than leaving and not going anywhere. depends on the reasons for leaving really in each case...if its for bad behavior on your part consequences must come....
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Post by vanillagorilla on Oct 24, 2019 15:28:31 GMT -5
Since when is leaving your church and going to another 'going off the rails'? Again going to another church is seem as a bigger threat than leaving and not going anywhere. depends on the reasons for leaving really in each case...if its for bad behavior on your part consequences must come.... Bad behavior is subjective. what the 2x2 call bad behavior can be very different from the rest of the Christians of the world's definition. Consequences must come? Must they really? Isn't this just sinners who judge other sinners for sinning differently? Who made the 2x2s responsible for dishing out consequences to those who left? I do not get where consequences must come.... And for those who may have judged me back in the day, that hurts them while i was living with love, happiness and freedom. Luckily I was not interested in their approval. It's ingesting poison to hurt someone else. Judgement is poison. I get this isn't happening as the majority, but it's too bad that it does happen.
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Post by havejoy on Oct 24, 2019 15:37:15 GMT -5
depends on the reasons for leaving really in each case...if its for bad behavior on your part consequences must come.... Bad behavior is subjective. what the 2x2 call bad behavior can be very different from the rest of the Christians of the world's definition. Consequences must come? Must they really? Isn't this just sinners who judge other sinners for sinning differently? Who made the 2x2s responsible for dishing out consequences to those who left? I do not get where consequences must come.... And for those who may have judged me back in the day, that hurts them while i was living with love, happiness and freedom. Luckily I was not interested in their approval. It's ingesting poison to hurt someone else. Judgement is poison. I get this isn't happening as the majority, but it's too bad that it does happen. Yes it really is too bad that this happens. Not sure what they think will happen if they judge/shun or critisize behind our backs. At church with the kids yesterday we talked about Saul and David's hearts. We had them draw 2 hearts take a pencil and poke holes in Saul's heart. His actions and how he treated people was not right and therefore it hurt his heart. Those that judge and shun etc are only hurting their hearts not ours. We live in the freedom that Christ has given us. Freedom to sing, dance, love everyone ( despite differences in beliefs). I have said this before and will say this again. I will be forever thankful that God opened my eyes to see how BIG he is and how small the F&W's religion make him.
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Post by havejoy on Oct 24, 2019 15:41:59 GMT -5
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Post by Grant on Oct 24, 2019 16:08:34 GMT -5
Since when is leaving your church and going to another 'going off the rails'? Again going to another church is seem as a bigger threat than leaving and not going anywhere. depends on the reasons for leaving really in each case...if its for bad behavior on your part consequences must come.... Is going to another church bad behaviour?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2019 16:30:45 GMT -5
depends on the reasons for leaving really in each case...if its for bad behavior on your part consequences must come.... Is going to another church bad behaviour? No, it is a good thing to do. Go to as many as you can, don't just stick with one. Gives you a much better perspective, and makes you aware of all the false information we were given in the past.
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Post by Pragmatic on Oct 24, 2019 17:21:05 GMT -5
I think in a number of cases, the shunners are weak people who fear facing any possible discussion or argument they know they would be uncomfortable in, possibly because they don't have answers. I have heard of some deliberately crossing the road to avoid and ex, then crossing back over when the ex was out of view....pathetic.
Of course, the exclusivists would view going to another church as "going off the rails", because it is seen as complete rejection, not just of the church but God himself, as they don't believe that God works outside of our church. Again, people I pity, more than blame.
In my experience, I have seen parents of "professing children" who held the exclusive viewpoint, actually become nicer and more balanced people when one or more of their children left the church. In one case, the now non-professing children were the most kind and compassionate to the parents in old age, and certainly less money oriented than the professing siblings. And it became even more evident when the parents died and the inheritances were being processed.
Sometimes these things knock the "religious pride" out of people.
Of course this behaviour is not confined to our church, but also seen in some other churches also.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2019 17:23:49 GMT -5
depends on the reasons for leaving really in each case...if its for bad behavior on your part consequences must come.... Is going to another church bad behaviour? not really but it all depends on what that new church is preaching....
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Post by howitis on Oct 24, 2019 18:37:30 GMT -5
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Post by havejoy on Oct 24, 2019 20:00:45 GMT -5
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Post by Grant on Oct 24, 2019 20:07:35 GMT -5
Is going to another church bad behaviour? not really but it all depends on what that new church is preaching.... Hopefully they preach Christ and not themselves as we often heard the workers preach
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Post by joanna on Oct 24, 2019 20:21:21 GMT -5
thelight . The main issue in this tragic account is domestic violenceThis is about a male who considered his partner and children as possessions and felt entitled to holding complete control over them. The statistics of Violence against women are horrifying. I do not know the background of the accused murderer Adrian Basham, however patriarchal belief systems including Christianity, perpetuate the attitude that males are superior to females and are to have authority over them. It would be a positive thing to read of anyone on this thread showing they are outraged by the violent treatment of women by men. Samantha's close family were obviously supportive of her yet it is convenient for some to buy into the tabloid press approach which relies on terms sure to capture the attention of readers. Mr and Mrs Fraser lived on the same street as their daughter for several years before her death.
Mrs Fraser said after the marriage broke down her daughter became increasingly anxious and was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder.
‘‘[Samantha] was very afraid in the months after the separation. She was advised, because she was so afraid for her safety and what Adrian might do, she lived with us for about three months,’’ Mrs Fraser said.Hopefully this tragic murder will prompt those of you who continue to revere the Christian bible to consider the real and dangerous teachings contained therein: teachings which validate male control and authority over the vulnerable. There are other factors which contribute to this but religiosity and the mindset emanating from indoctrination into patriarchal belief systems excuses male domination. Here are the sobering statistics of Violence against women
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 24, 2019 21:59:07 GMT -5
For Pete’s sake Wally! The first was about trespasses against brothers. And a failed attempt to bring peace between them. Besides that which is prescribed is not considered shunning. It means not to be best friends with them as you once were but not to the effect of hatred. The second case is very similar in that you are not to have church fellowship with but it doesn’t say to not treat them as dirt under your feet. Shunning is the worst kind of treatment a person can do to another next to physical killing them. It’s very emotional and mental abuse. You sure can’t win anyone to repentance by pure hatred. you have your interpretation i have mine... when i was shunned i certainly turned my life around.... Going from being a womanizer to belonging to a church which is a patriarchal society with many evident mysognonists is not much of a turn around.
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Post by fixit on Oct 25, 2019 13:58:27 GMT -5
From "The Australian" newspaper. The court heard Ms Fraser grew up in a small religious cult, Two by Two, and was “disowned by extended family members” when she made the decision to leave. This is another sad case of how ex's are treated in Victoria. It should not be that way and let us hope with the talk about change, that this issue is addressed. Shunning is contrary to Christian teachings, and certainly not humanistic. no one should be killed for leaving or joining a church but the case for shunning is biblical for someone who goes off the rails in the church. Christ said so here: Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. paul spoke similarly here: 1Co_5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. How should we treat a heathen man and a publican? Matthew 5 New Living Translation (NLT) 38 “You have heard the law that says the punishment must match the injury: ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say, do not resist an evil person! If someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer the other cheek also. 40 If you are sued in court and your shirt is taken from you, give your coat, too. 41 If a soldier demands that you carry his gear for a mile, carry it two miles. 42 Give to those who ask, and don’t turn away from those who want to borrow. Teaching about Love for Enemies 43 “You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy. 44 But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! 45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. 46 If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. 47 If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. 48 But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect. Leviticus 19 15 “Do not twist justice in legal matters by favoring the poor or being partial to the rich and powerful. Always judge people fairly. 16 “Do not spread slanderous gossip among your people. “Do not stand idly by when your neighbor’s life is threatened. I am the Lord. 17 “Do not nurse hatred in your heart for any of your relatives. Confront people directly so you will not be held guilty for their sin.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2019 14:49:40 GMT -5
no one should be killed for leaving or joining a church but the case for shunning is biblical for someone who goes off the rails in the church. Christ said so here: Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. paul spoke similarly here: 1Co_5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. How should we treat a heathen man and a publican? Matthew 5 New Living Translation (NLT) 38 “You have heard the law that says the punishment must match the injury: ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say, do not resist an evil person! If someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer the other cheek also. 40 If you are sued in court and your shirt is taken from you, give your coat, too. 41 If a soldier demands that you carry his gear for a mile, carry it two miles. 42 Give to those who ask, and don’t turn away from those who want to borrow. Teaching about Love for Enemies 43 “You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy. 44 But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! 45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. 46 If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. 47 If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. 48 But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect. Leviticus 19 15 “Do not twist justice in legal matters by favoring the poor or being partial to the rich and powerful. Always judge people fairly. 16 “Do not spread slanderous gossip among your people. “Do not stand idly by when your neighbor’s life is threatened. I am the Lord. 17 “Do not nurse hatred in your heart for any of your relatives. Confront people directly so you will not be held guilty for their sin. thats not the age old understanding of treating someone as a heathen or a publican...
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Post by fixit on Oct 28, 2019 3:16:47 GMT -5
How should we treat a heathen man and a publican? Matthew 5 New Living Translation (NLT) 38 “You have heard the law that says the punishment must match the injury: ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say, do not resist an evil person! If someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer the other cheek also. 40 If you are sued in court and your shirt is taken from you, give your coat, too. 41 If a soldier demands that you carry his gear for a mile, carry it two miles. 42 Give to those who ask, and don’t turn away from those who want to borrow. Teaching about Love for Enemies 43 “You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy. 44 But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! 45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. 46 If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. 47 If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. 48 But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect. Leviticus 19 15 “Do not twist justice in legal matters by favoring the poor or being partial to the rich and powerful. Always judge people fairly. 16 “Do not spread slanderous gossip among your people. “Do not stand idly by when your neighbor’s life is threatened. I am the Lord. 17 “Do not nurse hatred in your heart for any of your relatives. Confront people directly so you will not be held guilty for their sin. thats not the age old understanding of treating someone as a heathen or a publican... Help me with this Wally! We love our enemies, and those who don't love us. How do we treat someone as a heathen or a publican?
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Post by snow on Oct 28, 2019 12:18:09 GMT -5
thats not the age old understanding of treating someone as a heathen or a publican... Help me with this Wally! We love our enemies, and those who don't love us. How do we treat someone as a heathen or a publican? Well the Christian religion hasn't got a great track record of treating those who don't believe like them well. But from what I read in the bible they were wrong because Jesus clearly says to love your enemies, turn the other cheek etc. It seems that it's okay for some to ignore those words which is a real shame. If Christians actually followed what Jesus said in these words, our world would be a much better place imo. I see Christians that live those words, and Christians that don't. I see atheists that live like that and some that don't. So I don't see 'treating others well' as a religious thing, but more a way that humans should interact with each other in order to have a kinder gentler world to live in. It would reduce the amount of division between groups I believe and so we would be more united and driven to treat each other kindly.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 12:34:35 GMT -5
thats not the age old understanding of treating someone as a heathen or a publican... Help me with this Wally! We love our enemies, and those who don't love us. How do we treat someone as a heathen or a publican? the context at the time was to avoid those that were heathens and publicans...
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Post by fixit on Oct 28, 2019 13:16:00 GMT -5
Help me with this Wally! We love our enemies, and those who don't love us. How do we treat someone as a heathen or a publican? the context at the time was to avoid those that were heathens and publicans... That's not how Jesus behaved... Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 14:13:04 GMT -5
If Jesus came to our place today, I would take him across the road to the Royal Hotel, to meet the Publican. Tom is a great guy, know that he would shout Jesus a drink, and me as well.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 15:25:21 GMT -5
the context at the time was to avoid those that were heathens and publicans... That's not how Jesus behaved... Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children. Christ was trying to change those publicans and sinners so they could enter the kingdom but not to the destruction of the fellowship... possibly Paul said the following: Rom_14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. Christ also said that those that reject the gospel your to wipe the dust off your feet as you leave them...thats a form of shunning.... is it to be your first choice in resolving every problem...no...but there may come a time when you just have to walk away from people and have nothing to do with them...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 15:40:45 GMT -5
If Jesus came to our place today, I would take him across the road to the Royal Hotel, to meet the Publican. Tom is a great guy, know that he would shout Jesus a drink, and me as well. its not about you changing Christ its about him changing you....
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 16:19:24 GMT -5
I would not be so presumptuous to try to change Jesus, or for that matter anybody else. There life is their own, and they alone have the right to determine how they live it. But I know if I took Jesus to the Royal, he would have a great time, and meet some very genuine people.
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Post by fixit on Oct 29, 2019 13:43:42 GMT -5
That's not how Jesus behaved... Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children. Christ was trying to change those publicans and sinners so they could enter the kingdom but not to the destruction of the fellowship... Of the priest, the Levite and the Samaritan, who contributed the most to the success of the fellowship? Luke 10 New International Version (NIV) 25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” 27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” 28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” 29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” 30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’ 36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?” 37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.” Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
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