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Post by curious guest on Jul 21, 2006 19:15:58 GMT -5
Who did Jesus die for to save? all mankind those who believe
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Post by bowhunter on Jul 21, 2006 20:26:46 GMT -5
He died for:"many","those who were fore ordained","sinners","the lost sheep",the Bride?,Me, You.....
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Post by Jessi on Jul 21, 2006 22:23:48 GMT -5
The good Shepherd lays down his life for the sheep = Jn 10:11 Who are the sheep? His sheep. Jn 10:4+ and vs 14 He came to save HIS PEOPLE from their sins - Matt 1:21 God bought the church with His own blood - Acts 20:28
Who is the Church? His sheep. His people. Certainly not all mankind.
He died for those who believe, yes.
But they would NEVER have believed unless they were His to begin with, chosen in him from before the foundation of the world, Eph 1:4, those who were ordained to eternal life believed, Acts 13:48, those that were given to the Son by the Father, John 17:9.
Christ's Jessi
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Post by curious guest on Jul 21, 2006 23:37:55 GMT -5
This is good. Any more scripture quotes? Any disagree?
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Post by mrleo unplugged on Jul 22, 2006 8:43:44 GMT -5
Is there any scripture that says he didn't choose all of mankind before the foundation of the earth?
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Post by Jessi on Jul 22, 2006 12:32:23 GMT -5
Is there any scripture that says he didn't choose all of mankind before the foundation of the earth? mrleo: Yes. Paul was addressing Christians in the church of Ephesus in Eph 1:4 when he said, "chose US in him from before the foundation of the world." Christians are those who have believed in Christ and THEY are the ones who will enter his rest, not the ones who don't believe - Heb 4:3. Also, in Jn 17:9, Jesus said," . . . I am not praying for the world, but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours." He went on to pray for "those who believe in me through their word" in vs 20. Matt 25:31-34+ says Jesus will separate the sheep from the goats. If one is not a true Christian, he is a goat. The goats are not his. Also, Rev 14:8, 17:8 - these passages clearly indicate that not all people’s names are written in the Book of Life. 20:15 - If anyone's name is not found in the book of life (which was written before the foundation of the world), he will be thrown into the lake of fire. Rev 21:7 -8 lists all the kinds of people that God did not choose from before the foundation of the world. He left them alone, to their own destruction . . "which is the lake that burns with fire and sulfur." A picture of this can be found in the OT in the refuse dump that burned continually outside the Israelite camp for bodies of sacrificial animals--garbage. They took Jesus outside the city/camp to kill him (Jn 19:20, --and also in the NT when they probably would have taken Jesus' body and burned it in this dump (Lev 16:27). But OT prophecy (Is 53:9) was fulfilled in that he was buried among the rich (Luke 23:50). Christ's Forever, Jessi
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Post by Good or Bad on Jul 22, 2006 13:04:28 GMT -5
Paul was addressing Christians in the church of Ephesus in Eph 1:4 when he said, "chose US in him from before the foundation of the world." 20:15 - If anyone's name is not found in the book of life (which was written before the foundation of the world), he will be thrown into the lake of fire. Rev 21:7 -8 lists all the kinds of people that God did not choose from before the foundation of the world. He left them alone, to their own destruction . . "which is the lake that burns with fire and sulfur." So the lists are in place? Looks like you are either on the list or you are not, no matter what you do now. This smacks of Calvinism - People who God specifically elect are saved, the election is irresistible, and individuals can do nothing to effect this salvation. Looks like the verses quoted above back this up.
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Post by mrleo on Jul 22, 2006 13:10:57 GMT -5
Hmm...growing up in the 2x2s, I always assumed that Jesus died for everyone, regardless of whether they believed or not, or whether they had any chance to even know he existed (and of course, whether or not they ever encountered the Truth, which as a 2x2 I thought was the only way to truly get in touch with Jesus). :/
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Post by Jessi on Jul 22, 2006 13:18:09 GMT -5
Hmm...growing up in the 2x2s, I always assumed that Jesus died for everyone, regardless of whether they believed or not, or whether they had any chance to even know he existed (and of course, whether or not they ever encountered the Truth, which as a 2x2 I thought was the only way to truly get in touch with Jesus). :/ Unwritten "doctrine" is always weak. Can't be compared to the Holy Word. I was always taught in the 2x2s that Jesus died for everyone . . . but they couldn't be saved until they "made their choice." (to join the 2x2s, of course). The thing is, if you follow the idea that Jesus died for everyone, but they are totally free to choose or not choose him, GIVEN THAT MAN IS REPROBATE and TOTALLY SINFUL FROM BIRTH, is it not possible in this scenario, that ALL men would not choose Jesus? In which case, Christ died for nothing and God is not Sovereign. Christ's, Jessi
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Post by Value on Jul 22, 2006 13:21:08 GMT -5
The thing is, if you follow the idea that Jesus died for everyone, but they are totally free to choose or not choose him, GIVEN THAT MAN IS REPROBATE and TOTALLY SINFUL FROM BIRTH, is it not possible in this scenario, that ALL men would not choose Jesus? In which case, Christ died for nothing and God is not Sovereign. What good is all of this freedom if your name is already in or not in the book?
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Post by Jessi on Jul 22, 2006 13:23:38 GMT -5
Paul was addressing Christians in the church of Ephesus in Eph 1:4 when he said, "chose US in him from before the foundation of the world." 20:15 - If anyone's name is not found in the book of life (which was written before the foundation of the world), he will be thrown into the lake of fire. Rev 21:7 -8 lists all the kinds of people that God did not choose from before the foundation of the world. He left them alone, to their own destruction . . "which is the lake that burns with fire and sulfur." So the lists are in place? Looks like you are either on the list or you are not, no matter what you do now. This smacks of Calvinism - People who God specifically elect are saved, the election is irresistible, and individuals can do nothing to effect this salvation. Looks like the verses quoted above back this up. The lists are in place in the Holy Word of God. I am a Calvinist. I am first a Christian, though. Christians do nothing to effect salvation. God does it all. Jesus is God. Salvation is not of works, lest any man should boast, Eph 2: 8-9, Rom 9:11. Once we are saved and not just elect, we gotta get busy. There are things to do to glorify God, since we suddenly realize that this is all just a practice run, a trial heat - for what we will do in heaven. Christ's Forever, Jessi
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jul 22, 2006 13:24:09 GMT -5
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Oh, wait......
John 3:16 For God so loved an elect few, that he gave his only begotten Son, that the elect few should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Maybe one can not take the word for what is written, but must spiritualize (spin) it. The serpent did that. Look what happened to him and to those that listened to him.
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Post by Jessi on Jul 22, 2006 13:37:41 GMT -5
The thing is, if you follow the idea that Jesus died for everyone, but they are totally free to choose or not choose him, GIVEN THAT MAN IS REPROBATE and TOTALLY SINFUL FROM BIRTH, is it not possible in this scenario, that ALL men would not choose Jesus? In which case, Christ died for nothing and God is not Sovereign. What good is all of this freedom if your name is already in or not in the book? I John 4:19-20. We love Him because He first loved us. If one is not His, he won't be searching or looking or trying to find out the truth . . . if one is searching and desperate and repentant and sincere, God--and only God--will open the heart and draw the sinner to his Son (Jn 6:44). Christ's, Jessi
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Post by Jessi on Jul 22, 2006 14:01:38 GMT -5
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Oh, wait...... John 3:16 For God so loved an elect few, that he gave his only begotten Son, that the elect few should not perish, but have everlasting life. Maybe one can not take the word for what is written, but must spiritualize (spin) it. The serpent did that. Look what happened to him and to those that listened to him. Greg Lee: If one takes the Word for how it is written, one must conclude that not all will be saved, right? Then what is the provision for those who will be saved? It clearly says some will be saved and others won't. For me, there seems to be overwhelming evidence in election passages and verses. so, I had to conclude that "the world" refers to the fact that the gospel call goes out to the whole world because mankind cannot know who are His. Only the Lord knows who are his ( II Tim 2:19). Therefore, we must tell as many people as we can about Jesus because he gave his life for his sheep (Jn 17) and his sheep are in every tribe and people and tongue and nation (Rev 5:9). If we knew who they were, maybe we wouldn't tell them. It makes sense to me. Also, I think all man's view of God is not perfect and we misunderstand many things and can only speak of God in terms of our limited knowledge of Him and His attributes. Maybe the uses of the word "world" are an exaggeration at times in the expression of man, as in Acts 17:6. The gospel had not spread to the whole world yet, and a man claims that the the disciples have "TURNED THE WORLD UPSIDE DOWN". It is unlikely the men meant the entire world--only his perception. I believe God breathed out the scripture with weak and sinful man's limited perception of Him in mind. That's why, I believe, He chose holy men as a means to communicate his Word to us. Christ's, Jessi
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Post by Election isnt fair on Jul 22, 2006 19:46:44 GMT -5
"Blessed is the man whom THOU CHOOSEST, and CAUSEST to approach unto Thee..." (Psa. 65:4 cf. Psa. 33:12). God does not appoint eternal life to those who first choose him but the Scriptures say, "...as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48); "...And THE LORD added to the Church daily such as should be saved" (Acts 2:47). Man does not choose nor does he will to choose, but has to be MADE willing by the power of God. The Scripture does not say ‘As many as believed were then ordained to eternal life’ but "As many as were ordained to eternal life believed." God’s people, both in the Old and New Testaments, are always referred to as His chosen, My chosen or the ones whom He has chosen, etc. (Deut. 14:2; Isa. 43:20, 44:1; Mk. 13:20; Jn. 15:19; Eph. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 2:9). "For the Lord will not forsake His people for His great name’s sake: because it hath pleased the Lord to make you His people" (1 Sam. 12:22). "...I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee....I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from Me" (Heb. 13:5 & Jer. 32:40). The Scriptures say that God makes covenant with His chosen, not with those who ‘choose’ Him (see Psa. 89:3). www.godsonlygospel.com/Election%20Is%20Just%20Not%20Fair2.htmUnless God opens our eyes we will never see. It's all about God, His will, His power, His sovereign grace.
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Post by Skeptic Al on Jul 22, 2006 22:19:02 GMT -5
Unless God opens our eyes we will never see. It's all about God, His will, His power, His sovereign grace. Hmm, so let's see: God--who is omnipotent--CHOOSES to not open my eyes, He CHOOSES not to choose me, but then He gets angry at ME for "disobeying" him? And then, for good measure, HE chooses to toss me into a lake of fire because He is a just and merciful God? With that kind of justice and mercy, who needs prejudice and hate? No wonder there are so many confused, neurotic Christians. I'd be messed up to if I tried to follow that kind of nonsensical logic.
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Post by Jessi on Jul 23, 2006 7:54:14 GMT -5
Unless God opens our eyes we will never see. It's all about God, His will, His power, His sovereign grace. Hmm, so let's see: God--who is omnipotent--CHOOSES to not open my eyes, He CHOOSES not to choose me, but then He gets angry at ME for "disobeying" him? And then, for good measure, HE chooses to toss me into a lake of fire because He is a just and merciful God? With that kind of justice and mercy, who needs prejudice and hate? No wonder there are so many confused, neurotic Christians. I'd be messed up to if I tried to follow that kind of nonsensical logic. It's not confusing once one studies it out. The scripture is there. He isn't still choosing. He chose already, before the foundation of the world . . . which eliminates a lot of doubt and confusion for me. He will have mercy on whomever He will (Romans 9). The only problem is . . . which ones did He choose? Those who are desperate and searching and sincerely want to know the truth -- are probably His. GOD opens the heart to receive the word. Are you searching? Are you trying to find out the truth? Pray with a sincere heart and God will show you His Christ, the Messiah, the Lord Jesus -- on every page of scripture. Christ's Forever, Jessi
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Post by for Jessi on Jul 23, 2006 9:01:38 GMT -5
Jessi I think you have good motives and zeal but you still havent got your doctrine quite right. I think you need to keep on studying and possibly use a little less holier than thou attitude on the way you post just because we cant be as smart as you
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Post by Gene on Jul 23, 2006 10:54:33 GMT -5
. . . Pray with a sincere heart and God will show you His Christ, the Messiah, the Lord Jesus -- on every page of scripture. . . . Christ's Forever, Jessi Jessi, wouldn't it be more in line with your understanding to say "Pray with a sincere heart and God will show you His Christ, the Messiah, the Lord Jesus, if you are one of those whom HE preordained to know Him."And if you are not one of the chosen... well... pray anyway. Or do I misunderstand your view?
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jul 23, 2006 14:57:34 GMT -5
He chose already, before the foundation of the world . . . which eliminates a lot of doubt and confusion for me. He will have mercy on whomever He will (Romans 9). God decided even before the foundation of the earth that all redemption would be by his Son. God did not decide before the foundation of the earth who would be "elected". If he did, then the coming of Jesus was a formality, really not bnecessary. Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Man is not saved of his own will or his own effor, but by the grace of God.
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Post by Rob O on Jul 23, 2006 22:39:46 GMT -5
Jesus died for everyone and the work of atonement is accessed by faith. Not everyone exercises faith, so not everyone accesses the work of the atonement.
"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe." (1 Timothy 4:10, ESV)
"For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all." (Romans 11:32, ESV)
"This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time." (1 Timothy 2:3-6, ESV)
" “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." (John 3:16-18, ESV)
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God has spoken to me
Guest
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Post by God has spoken to me on Jul 23, 2006 22:42:53 GMT -5
God has spoken to me and has told me that I am one of His elect. Those who doubt their salvation...are not among the elect. IF YOU DOUBT...you are lost.
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Post by Yo Calvin on Jul 24, 2006 3:06:35 GMT -5
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Post by botany on Jul 24, 2006 17:30:12 GMT -5
If I were to proclaim that I will die for your sake, does this make you indebted to me? F_ck no. Jesus died for a phantom cause, just like if I were to proclaim to die for you. andy
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Post by just me on Jul 24, 2006 19:43:15 GMT -5
Jesus died for ALL sinners. ALL people are sinners ALL people have the chance to CHOOSE to believe. NOT ALL people WILL choose Those who dont choose...................Lose
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Post by Jessi on Jul 31, 2006 21:47:28 GMT -5
Jessi I think you have good motives and zeal but you still havent got your doctrine quite right. I think you need to keep on studying and possibly use a little less holier than thou attitude on the way you post just because we cant be as smart as you GENE: Only an elect person could pray with a sincere heart. God is the one who draws His own to His Christ (Jn 6:44). God is the one who opens the heart for a person to believe in the Lord Jesus (Acts 16:14). To Guest-FOR JESSI: How am I being "holier than thou?" God is merciful because He chose to save SOME. None deserve mercy. All deserve hell. Me. I deserve hell. But God, in his mercy chose SOME--before my mother was even born. I had nothing to do with it. Nothing I did saved me. Those he chose to give to the Son get mercy. Those he did not choose get justice. No one gets injustice. I am holy. I am set apart by God because I am His. But I cannot compare my situation with others. I am not better. They may be elect, too. I can only tell them what God wants me to say. How they can be saved. Through Jesus Christ the Lord, who I know saved ME but ONLY because God opened my heart and drew me to Him. Salvation is ALL of God and NONE of me, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST. I didn't do anything to EARN salvation, therefore, I cannot "lord it over anyone." I just try to tell what the Bible says because it's the Word of God. What doctrine is it that I don't have right? Can you write it down so I may be corrected--and compare YOUR doctrine with the Holy Word? I am happy to engage . . . Christ's Forever, Jessi
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Post by Jessi on Jul 31, 2006 22:08:57 GMT -5
God has spoken to me and has told me that I am one of His elect. Those who doubt their salvation...are not among the elect. IF YOU DOUBT...you are lost. No. Not lost. But doubting one's salvation is indicative of a troubled spirit. There are many reasons why Christians doubt their salvation. John MacArthur, in his book, "Saved Without a Doubt" gives some reasons for doubt: * Strong preaching - (like Jesus is God, predestination, the gospel is offensive) John writes, "Churches across our country are filled with smug people who don't feel particularly insecure because nothing in their life is ever confronted" (pg 95). He goes on to say that preachers today think it's their duty to make everyone feel good rather than tell them how to "examine themselves to see if they are in the faith" (II Cor 13:5). * Guilt: Not being able to accept the concept of forgiveness. The conscience speaks against forgiveness. *Ignorance - Some people aren't sure if they are saved because they don't understand that the act of salvation is ALL of God and not of them at all. They try to DO stuff. But Is 64:6. * Uncertainty of the exact moment of salvation can cause people to have doubts. *Tempatation - John writes, "People feel the pull of their4 unredeemed flesh and wonder whether they really have a new nature" (pg 101). Jesus is King, Jessi
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Post by Jessi on Jul 31, 2006 22:15:22 GMT -5
Unless God opens our eyes we will never see. It's all about God, His will, His power, His sovereign grace. Hmm, so let's see: God--who is omnipotent--CHOOSES to not open my eyes, He CHOOSES not to choose me, but then He gets angry at ME for "disobeying" him? And then, for good measure, HE chooses to toss me into a lake of fire because He is a just and merciful God? With that kind of justice and mercy, who needs prejudice and hate? No wonder there are so many confused, neurotic Christians. I'd be messed up to if I tried to follow that kind of nonsensical logic. Yes. I Cor 2:14. The thing is, if one has problems with election not being fair, neither was an innocent person dying for the sins of those who are not innocent, standing in their place and dying a sinner's death, taking on their stripes and crushed by God for them. THAT wasn't fair either. Christ's Forever, Jessi
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