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Post by Jessi on Jul 31, 2006 22:38:06 GMT -5
He chose already, before the foundation of the world . . . which eliminates a lot of doubt and confusion for me. He will have mercy on whomever He will (Romans 9). God decided even before the foundation of the earth that all redemption would be by his Son. God did not decide before the foundation of the earth who would be "elected". If he did, then the coming of Jesus was a formality, really not bnecessary. Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Man is not saved of his own will or his own effor, but by the grace of God. God shows us mercy AFTER we are saved, also, true? Not just at the moment of salvation, but continually shows mercy to us when we call upon him throughout our lives. Rev 13:8, 17:8 - whose names were not written . . . from the foundation of the world Philippians 4:3 - whose names are in the book of life Eph 1:4 - . . . has chosen us in him from before the foundation of the world Also, God's mercy and grace is clear in that His sun shines and his rain rains on the just and the unjust alike (Matt 5:45). His mercy is evident in that he allows the wicked to love and be loved and experience happiness - but that's ALL they will ever have because they got all their good things IN THIS LIFE (Luke 16:20-31). If one is without Christ, when it's over, it's over. No more good things. But they got SOME good things. His grace is that they got to experience it at all. But what an empty eternity then . . . . Christ's, Jessi
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Post by Jessi on Jul 31, 2006 22:45:23 GMT -5
If I were to proclaim that I will die for your sake, does this make you indebted to me? F_ck no. Jesus died for a phantom cause, just like if I were to proclaim to die for you. andy No, Andy. The difference is this: Jesus is God. Philippians 2:10-11 Jesus is Lord, Jessi
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Post by Jessi on Jul 31, 2006 23:04:38 GMT -5
In dealing with the Five Points of Calvinism, It is certainly fitting that five is the number of death, so the Five Points of Calvinism will kill anything near it. This is interesting, since the "Five points of Calvinism" is actually a response to the five points of Armenianism. People who don't believe election is "fair" never mention Romans 9 (vs 11 in particular) or other verses that are the glory and the grace of God for salvation - He is mighty to save. According to Eph 2:8-9, if we had the capacity to choose, that's to our own glory, and that is not what the bible says - LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST. Concerning all Calvin's sins, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. King James was a jerk. All Christians are still in the flesh and fight it every day of our lives. The fact that Calvin wasn't right in all he did or the OT people like Jacob (what a skunk he was) or Isaac or David . . . is proof that I am salvagable. Not because I am good, but that I am so bad and yet Christ's blood makes me righteous in God's sight. God does not see me as detestable or disgusting anymore. I am not under His wrath. Because Jesus is my advocate. He prays for me because I am His. Christ's, Jessi
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Aug 1, 2006 6:54:09 GMT -5
Romans 9:11 is about the election of Jacob over Esau. Paul was making the distinction between the seed of the flesh of Abraham.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Aug 1, 2006 7:12:05 GMT -5
God shows us mercy AFTER we are saved, also, true? Not just at the moment of salvation, but continually shows mercy to us when we call upon him throughout our lives. Rev 13:8, 17:8 - whose names were not written . . . from the foundation of the world Philippians 4:3 - whose names are in the book of life Eph 1:4 - . . . has chosen us in him from before the foundation of the world Also, God's mercy and grace is clear in that His sun shines and his rain rains on the just and the unjust alike (Matt 5:45). His mercy is evident in that he allows the wicked to love and be loved and experience happiness - but that's ALL they will ever have because they got all their good things IN THIS LIFE (Luke 16:20-31). If one is without Christ, when it's over, it's over. No more good things. But they got SOME good things. His grace is that they got to experience it at all. But what an empty eternity then . . . . Christ's, Jessi Revelation 13:8 (King James Version) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.[/u] Revelation 17:8 (King James Version) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world[/u], when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. The book of life is from the foundation or the book and the names are written from the foundation? Philippians 4:3 (King James Version) I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life. This just metions the book, but nothing about election before life began. Ephesians 1:4 (King James Version) as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Are the people chosen before life began or is how they should be (holy and without blame before him in love)? Well, if there is an election of designated people and not of designated love and acceptance of Jesus before life began, then I am in it or not. Let God be praised and let's eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die.
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Post by botany on Aug 1, 2006 16:03:09 GMT -5
If I were to proclaim that I will die for your sake, does this make you indebted to me? F_ck no. Jesus died for a phantom cause, just like if I were to proclaim to die for you. andy =============================================== No, Andy. The difference is this: Jesus is God. Philippians 2:10-11 Jesus is Lord, Jessi Hi Jessi, Philippians 2:10-11 says: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (From the blueletterbible.org) I'm confused as to how this says that Jesus is god. Could you explain how it does, please? Not only that, but what is the difference you claim? Whether it was god or Jesus that supposedly died for us, how does it mean that we are somehow indebted to him/them? andy
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Post by Magic Book on Aug 1, 2006 17:39:47 GMT -5
=============================================== No, Andy. The difference is this: Jesus is God. Philippians 2:10-11 Jesus is Lord, Jessi Hi Jessi, Philippians 2:10-11 says: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (From the blueletterbible.org) I'm confused as to how this says that Jesus is god. Could you explain how it does, please? Not only that, but what is the difference you claim? Whether it was god or Jesus that supposedly died for us, how does it mean that we are somehow indebted to him/them? andy Oh Andy. What a question. But does it matter? If you take the Magic Book out of the picture, along with its various and random interpretations, there is nothing to base the whole story on. But if you accept the Book as fact, spin the passages to make it all work and agree, call the parts that don't fit allegories, and blame any other inconsistancies on human copying errors, then you have the foundation for a fine religion!
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Post by Jessi on Aug 1, 2006 18:15:13 GMT -5
Jesus died for ALL sinners. ALL people are sinners ALL people have the chance to CHOOSE to believe. NOT ALL people WILL choose Those who dont choose...................Lose But . . . according to John 6:44, a man couldn't choose unless God draws him and opens the heart to believe. HE made the first move. If you use this "choose or lose" scenario, since all men are sinful and every heart is deceitful, then they could all choose NOT to follow Jesus -- and then He could have died for nothing. God left nothing up to us. He knew we were not capable. Our deeds are dirty rags to Him, filth (Is 64:6) because He is Holy and we are not - unless we are covered in the blood of Christ, His Son. He says in Isaiah 46: 4-5: 4 Even to your old age, I am He, And even top gray hairs I will carry you! I have made, and I will bear; Even I will carry, and will deliver you. 5 To whom will you lien Me, and make Me equal And compare Me, that we should be alike? (Hmm. Yet, Jesus was the exact image of His person- Heb 1:3). If the Lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world, salvation had nothing to do with any of us. The Sovereign One brought his covenant family through the firey trials . . . and our salvation is only a by-product of the glory of God through Christ's cross. Only so we won't pollute his name are we saved (Is 48:10-11) - Not of works lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8-9) and before they had done anything good or bad (Rom 9:11). Peace in Christ, jessi Christ's Jessi
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Post by Jessi on Aug 1, 2006 19:02:02 GMT -5
Romans 9:11 is about the election of Jacob over Esau. Paul was making the distinction between the seed of the flesh of Abraham. According to Rom 9:14, Paul doesn't appear to have the same point you made about the sons of Isaac. His point seems very deliberate, something one really can't dance around. In the 24th verse, he certainly is not still pondering Isaac's offspring. EVEN US WHOM HE CALLED, NOT OF THE JEWS ONLY, BUT ALSO OF THE GENTILES. Paul makes the point that God chooses and will have mercy on whomever he will. He says in vs 18, "Therefore, He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills, He hardens." Why shouldn't this mean exactly was it says? Ephesians 1:4? How do you read this? What does it mean? Rom 8:29-30? What else does foreknew mean, except that he knew us before we were even born? John the Baptist was saved in his mother's womb (Luke 1:43). He was foreknown, a part of God's plan of salvation. His ministry was foretold. Jesus was prophesied about from Genesis--through pictures of redemption. David was saved before birth (Ps 22:9, 71:6). According to what I find in the Word, His elect are saved from the foundation of the world. That means that I could not have had anything to do with it, nor claim any part in my salvation. -- God gets all the glory and power and honor and praise. Jesus is King and Lord of all. Jesus is King, Jessi
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Post by Jessi on Aug 1, 2006 19:55:23 GMT -5
andy [/quote] God said that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess HIM, THE LORD (YWEH) [Is 45:23] Rom 14:11 &12 also says that every knee shall bow to God to and to Him every man will give an account. Philippians 2:10 says that AT THE NAME OF JESUS, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL CONFESS that Jesus Christ is Lord. (THINGS in heaven, THINGS on earth refers to the fact that the entirety of intelligence that God has made will acknowledge him and give him glory, whether willingly or unwillingly. The New King James says "of those". ESV leaves out "things AND those"). The reason why not just any MAN could die for man's sins was that Jesus was God in the Flesh (Jn 1:1). God bought the church with His own blood (Acts 20:28) and Thomas said in Jn 20:28, "My Lord and my God!" He was the perfect sacrifice. His perfect life was imputed to us through his death for our sins, for which the wages are death. He stood in my place and died the death I deserved and should have had. His provision for me could only have taken place if he was NOT of the same, sinful nature, born into sin as I was. But he was born of a virgin, who the Holy Spirit came upon (who was also God). We are indebted to him because we are creatures He created (Jesus made the heavens and the earth and all of creation). We breath His air and experience love and have a good time. If one is not His, this grace he experiences now is all he will ever have (Luke 16:20-31). Then, he will get justice. Christ's, Jessi
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Post by botany on Aug 2, 2006 17:25:07 GMT -5
While Jesus was on earth, he knew that he was from heaven, and he knew what heaven was like. So, he also knew that he would go back. Since he knew the destination first hand, rather than hear-say from obscure sources as we have to go by, then how valuable could his "sacrifice" really have been? If there was actually a chance that Jesus would have "strayed" and "failed" his mission, then his life might have meant more. However, being that this is not the case -- since "prophecies" and god and jesus all knew the outcome -- I cannot accept arguments about how wonderful his life/death was for our sakes. If jesus were to truly, truly become human and not know of heaven and have to hear about it just like the rest of us... and then he still lived such an "exemplary" life... THEN it would have much more meaning. Would you argue that Jesus actually had a chance of going to "hell"? Did he actually have to fear that he wouldn't go [back] to heaven upon dying? You deserve capital punishment? The death sentence reserved for the worst criminals? What sin were you born into? The sin of being human? Are offspring indebted to their progenitors? Are you indebted to your parents simply because they "created" you? Saying that we are indebted to god b/c he created us is simply the most selfish reason god could give. And he doesn't want us to be selfish...?? andy
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Post by Jessi on Aug 3, 2006 20:47:41 GMT -5
While Jesus was on earth, he knew that he was from heaven, and he knew what heaven was like. So, he also knew that he would go back. Since he knew the destination first hand, rather than hear-say from obscure sources as we have to go by, then how valuable could his "sacrifice" really have been?It was as valuable as the value you place on it, depending on your election. If it means nothing to you, then, either you are not a Christian, or you are elect and not yet a believer because God has not yet drawn you to Christ.
The Bible is clear that if one is without Christ (Jn 15:5), there is no hope nor repentance nor forgiveness of sins. No heaven, but eternal hell for the goats (Matt 25:41) and heaven for His sheep, who hear His voice (Jn 10:3).
No one can get to the Father without going through the Son (Jn 14:6) and no one can believe in the Son unless the Father draws him (Jn 6:44). There is only one way for these two verses to be true. Only if these are ONE (Jn 1:1-14 & Mark 12:29).If there was actually a chance that Jesus would have "strayed" and "failed" his mission, then his life might have meant more. However, being that this is not the case -- since "prophecies" and god and jesus all knew the outcome -- I cannot accept arguments about how wonderful his life/death was for our sakes.This is a common misconception. God did not save us for OUR SAKES. We were saved only as a by-product of His glory, for his OWN NAME’s sake, so we wouldn’t pollute his name (Is 48:11). God seeks his own glory (Is 42:8, 43:21) and made man for His glory (Is 43:7).
The Holiness of God is manifest in the Holiness of Jesus Christ, His Messiah. His Messiah was prophesied about and pictured from Genesis I and only the elect will be able to see the pictures. To those not chosen or to the elect whom he has not regenerated, it is foolishness (I Cor 2:14).If jesus were to truly, truly become human and not know of heaven and have to hear about it just like the rest of us... and then he still lived such an "exemplary" life... THEN it would have much more meaning. Jesus was fully God and fully man. The relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, who were ALL the LORD GOD, is who worked together to effect salvation . . . For GOD’s Holy Name, not for us. And He puts His WORD above His NAME (Ps 138:2), so we should read it and adhere to it. It's His voice. Would you argue that Jesus actually had a chance of going to "hell"? Did he actually have to fear that he wouldn't go [back] to heaven upon dying?No. He was fully God and fully man. He was the perfect sacrifice for sin. He was the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. You deserve capital punishment? The death sentence reserved for the worst criminals?Yes. Even the slightest sin to US is punishable by death to God because He is so Holy. The wages of sin is death (6:23). It doesn’t say “some sin”, but sin. Any sin at all is an abomination to God. I am a sinner. What sin were you born into? The sin of being human? No. The sin of Adam, the first sinner. I am just as capable as he was of sinning, in fact, that is my nature because of the fall. I was born speaking lies from the womb (Ps 58:3) and the human heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked, who can know it (Jer 17:9)?Are offspring indebted to their progenitors? Are you indebted to your parents simply because they "created" you? Yes. That’s what the Word of God says: Matt 15:3-6. Every creature KNOWS there is a God, its creator, and is indebted to Him and was made for God’s glory (ROM 1:20). Saying that we are indebted to god b/c he created us is simply the most selfish reason god could give. And he doesn't want us to be selfish...?? andy [/quote][/i] If God were selfish, ALL would perish. But he chose to save SOME (Rom 11:14). But he is a jealous God. His NAME is Jealous (Ex 34:14). The thing is, if one has repented and has laid his sin at the foot of the cross, it's forgiven. Jesus' blood has paid the price for the sin of those who come to Him; therefore, He bought the church. He is God (Acts 20:28). Christ is King, Jessi
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Post by Skeptic Al on Aug 4, 2006 2:15:51 GMT -5
andy wrote: Saying that we are indebted to god b/c he created us is simply the most selfish reason god could give. And he doesn't want us to be selfish...?? andy If God were selfish, ALL would perish. But he chose to save SOME (Rom 11:14). But he is a jealous God. His NAME is Jealous (Ex 34:14). quote] Oh, I see. So God is only selfish towards the ones he's chosen. To the rest of the poor saps He's just plain ol' mean. That's comforting, Jessi. I just want to be a better Calvinist in the days that lie ahead.
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Post by Jessi on Aug 4, 2006 7:53:48 GMT -5
Skeptic AL, YOU WROTE: Oh, I see. So God is only selfish towards the ones he's chosen.
I'm pretty sure I didn't say, "God is selfish towards the ones he's chosen." I'm not sure what that means . . . "selfish towards." I'm not sure what you mean, but I didn't say that.
I did say God is a jealous God, jealous for His glory and His good NAME and I gave some scripture for that. The Bible says what it says. It is our duty to find out what it all means.
For me, the more I study the attributes of God, the more I understand that that He is HOLY and RIGHTEOUS, but He is also is slow to anger. He is faithful when I am faithless. He is a compassionate God - for those that are His, whom He gave to Jesus out of the world (Jn 17:9).
God says he shows mercy TO THOUSANDS, not to everyone in the whole world just because (Ex 20:6, Ex 34:7).
Moses writes in Ex 34:6 - And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, the LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth . . .
He shows mercy to those who love Him. Those who love Him keep His commandments. DEUT 5:10, 7:9
They keep His commandments because they are His - Jn 14:15. They are His because He chose them to give to God the Son as a gift (Jn 17:9).
The true gospel of Jesus is offensive. It doesn't seem fair to unrepentant man. Confrontation with sin is painful. But (Is 6:1) God is Holy, Holy, Holy and the only way we can be Holy is throught Christ. He is the HOLY ONE. When God sees His own, He sees them through the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ and sees them as righteous.
All praise to Jesus Christ, who is the express image of the PERSON of God.
Christ's Forever, Jessi
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Post by botany on Aug 4, 2006 15:00:15 GMT -5
Jessi, I must say that you seem to have a scriptural quote for everything. However, to me it seems to be just regurgitation. I cannot really understand your viewpoint. But, I suppose it takes all kinds of people to create a balance. Have a grateful day, andy
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Post by Jessi on Aug 4, 2006 16:56:17 GMT -5
O.K. Andy.
Grace and peace to you,
Jessi
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