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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 30, 2018 5:07:10 GMT -5
Friend do all Christians have morals ? What about Buddhists ..... do they have morals ? Or the Church Of England .... do they have morals ?
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Post by friend on Jun 30, 2018 16:03:21 GMT -5
Friend do all Christians have morals ? What about Buddhists ..... do they have morals ? Or the Church Of England .... do they have morals ? well, I haven’t figured out if space aliens and hallow Planetarians have some too? Do you know? 🤷♂️
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2018 19:22:39 GMT -5
1 Sam 15: 1. "Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants..." Acknowledging that the passage in bold is a lie is the first step to realizing a whole lot of things. Baby steps... you just dug your hole a little deeper there ipsedixit, good luck getting out of it... I guess I don't follow... Was the slaughter of the Amalekites (particularly the children and infants) a morally justified action? The Bible says Samuel said he had divine command to order this... was Samuel lying? This lets God off the hook, but should cast doubt on other claims in the Bible by "holy men". Or do you think God did in fact desire the slaughter of the Amalekites? I suppose that's the real question to start with.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2018 19:34:16 GMT -5
“Punishment” or “divine plan”. Wow, a sermon taken right from the story of Joseph being sold into slavery and sent to prison by a “divine plan”. Aw, “you meant it for evil, but God (allowed it) for good! “ Joseph knew how to persevere in dark situations. Thanks for this reminder, ip. It sounds rosey on paper, when it's not our reality. I wouldn't tell it to anyone who lost loved ones in the holocaust though. Imagine the nerve of saying, "look, I know your children were killed with gas and burned to nothing, but cheer up! God meant it for good, see?". I think it rather lacks tact, at the best.
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Post by friend on Jun 30, 2018 19:40:44 GMT -5
“Punishment” or “divine plan”. Wow, a sermon taken right from the story of Joseph being sold into slavery and sent to prison by a “divine plan”. Aw, “you meant it for evil, but God (allowed it) for good! “ Joseph knew how to persevere in dark situations. Thanks for this reminder, ip. It sounds rosey on paper, when it's not our reality. I wouldn't tell it to anyone who lost loved ones in the holocaust though. Imagine the nerve of saying, "look, I know your children were killed with gas and burned to nothing, but cheer up! God meant it for good, see?". I think it rather lacks tact, at the best. Whoa, the point was that Joseph forgave his brothers. But look how his attitude brought him a great blessing!! It wasn’t about Joseph rubbing his victory in he face of those that betrayed him . Thanks for your thoughts, ips.
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Post by matisse on Jun 30, 2018 19:40:46 GMT -5
God did right concerning the amelakites they got what they deserved... That makes me feel sick inside. When has it ever been right to kill everything that walks. Babies, animals, everything that wasn't a virgin girl. It's wrong no matter who does it. Wally's God is a no-nonsense, cut and dried, law-and-order kind of guy...coincidentally (or not), quite a lot like Wally.
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Post by friend on Jun 30, 2018 19:44:33 GMT -5
“Punishment” or “divine plan”. Wow, a sermon taken right from the story of Joseph being sold into slavery and sent to prison by a “divine plan”. Aw, “you meant it for evil, but God (allowed it) for good! “ Joseph knew how to persevere in dark situations. Thanks for this reminder, ip. It sounds rosey on paper, when it's not our reality. I wouldn't tell it to anyone who lost loved ones in the holocaust though. Imagine the nerve of saying, "look, I know your children were killed with gas and burned to nothing, but cheer up! God meant it for good, see?". I think it rather lacks tact, at the best. [ Nevertheless. The Jews did cry out during theChrists trial , “his blood be on us.....”. (Is this the punishment the rabbi should have AAacknowledged?). Just wondering
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 30, 2018 19:50:02 GMT -5
It sounds rosey on paper, when it's not our reality. I wouldn't tell it to anyone who lost loved ones in the holocaust though. Imagine the nerve of saying, "look, I know your children were killed with gas and burned to nothing, but cheer up! God meant it for good, see?". I think it rather lacks tact, at the best. Whoa, the point was that Joseph forgave his brothers. But look how his attitude brought him a great blessing!! It wasn’t about Joseph rubbing his victory in he face of those that betrayed him . Thanks for your thoughts, ips. Absolutely NO comparison to the millions killed in the Nazi Holocaust!
In fact, it is cruel & obscene to even think it would be.
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Post by friend on Jun 30, 2018 20:20:53 GMT -5
you just dug your hole a little deeper there ipsedixit, good luck getting out of it... I guess I don't follow... Was the slaughter of the Amalekites (particularly the children and infants) a morally justified action? The Bible says Samuel said he had divine command to order this... was Samuel lying? This lets God off the hook, but should cast doubt on other claims in the Bible by "holy men". Or do you think God did in fact desire the slaughter of the Amalekites? I suppose that's the real question to start with. The early Law had basic punishments, most notably the Law that stated “an eye for an eye, etc. “. Since God proclaimed the just punishment, it was an eye for an eye (in other words the amalakites were more than guilty of doing so to their enemies ( Hebrews) and Haman wasn’t going to stop before all the Jews were Killed,/destroyed. That changes the picture vastly about why God pronounced that punishment on them in like kind. IMO
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Post by friend on Jun 30, 2018 20:33:00 GMT -5
Whoa, the point was that Joseph forgave his brothers. But look how his attitude brought him a great blessing!! It wasn’t about Joseph rubbing his victory in he face of those that betrayed him . Thanks for your thoughts, ips. Absolutely NO comparison to the millions killed in the Nazi Holocaust!
In fact, it is cruel & obscene to even think it would be.
And you excuse the amalakites and Haman for plotting the extermination of the Hebrew in 365 B.C. ?? Read your history about Purim and Queen Esther & Mordecai, who saved the Jews single handed, and Queen Esther asked that Hamans 10 sons be hung again in 1946 , Jules Streicher cried, “Purim 1946”. as he was dragged fighting to his gallow to be hung for his part in the Hollocaust. Not a thing to take lightly! Sad day, and it did deliver a homeland for the Hebrew whether or not we acknowledge it so
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2018 21:13:54 GMT -5
Absolutely NO comparison to the millions killed in the Nazi Holocaust!
In fact, it is cruel & obscene to even think it would be.
And you excuse the amalakites and Haman for plotting the extermination of the Hebrew in 365 B.C. ?? Read your history about Purim and Queen Esther & Mordecai, who saved the Jews single handed, and Queen Esther asked that Hamans 10 sons be hung again in 1946 , Jules Streicher cried, “Purim 1946”. as he was dragged fighting to his gallow to be hung for his part in the Hollocaust. Not a thing to take lightly! Sad day, and it did deliver a homeland for the Hebrew whether or not we acknowledge it so Killing children and infants is inexcusable. No matter the changing times, this, if nothing else, should be true. And before you ask, I am very much against abortion as well.
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Post by friend on Jun 30, 2018 21:39:28 GMT -5
And you excuse the amalakites and Haman for plotting the extermination of the Hebrew in 365 B.C. ?? Read your history about Purim and Queen Esther & Mordecai, who saved the Jews single handed, and Queen Esther asked that Hamans 10 sons be hung again in 1946 , Jules Streicher cried, “Purim 1946”. as he was dragged fighting to his gallow to be hung for his part in the Hollocaust. Not a thing to take lightly! Sad day, and it did deliver a homeland for the Hebrew whether or not we acknowledge it so Killing children and infants is inexcusable. No matter the changing times, this, if nothing else, should be true. And before you ask, I am very much against abortion as well. then please listen to this speaker who ties the German hallocaust and the Purim of 365 B.C. , and the commonality of Hitler and Haman And you should condemn both men! The amalakites were wicked people, and if one survived, they would kill all your people , they weren’t to be trivialized The first 7 minutes are boring, but he reveals a huge Knowledge of Jewish thinking and history, Please comment on it youtu.be/v597dYHS1MU.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2018 23:46:42 GMT -5
I agree it would be wicked if anyone killed an entire group of people.
Except of course when the Jews did it.
I don't doubt the cause of the Jews post-WWII and post-Haman are similar.
I'm not sure how that relates to an order to kill children and infants years after the Amalekites did what multiple other nation Israel trespassed through on its "wandering" for 40 years in a tiny area of land with 3 million people (Ie as it expanded influence beyond its traditional Canaan borders and began to battle other Nations for dominance) did: fight them.
I bet the soldiers who were stabbing babies in the name of the Lord felt great about themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2018 23:50:19 GMT -5
I agree it would be wicked if anyone killed an entire group of people. Except of course when the Jews did it. I don't doubt the cause of the Jews post-WWII and post-Haman are similar. I'm not sure how that relates to an order to kill children and infants years after the Amalekites did what multiple other nation Israel trespassed through on its "wandering" for 40 years in a tiny area of land with 3 million people (Ie as it expanded influence beyond its traditional Canaan borders and began to battle other Nations for dominance) did: fight them. I bet the soldiers who were stabbing babies in the name of the Lord felt great about themselves. the amalekites did their deed when isreal was at its weakest point...God never forgave that...
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 1, 2018 0:07:26 GMT -5
Absolutely NO comparison to the millions killed in the Nazi Holocaust!
In fact, it is cruel & obscene to even think it would be.
And you excuse the amalakites and Haman for plotting the extermination of the Hebrew in 365 B.C. ?? Read your history about Purim and Queen Esther & Mordecai, who saved the Jews single handed, and Queen Esther asked that Hamans 10 sons be hung again in 1946 , Jules Streicher cried, “Purim 1946”. as he was dragged fighting to his gallow to be hung for his part in the Hollocaust. Not a thing to take lightly! Sad day, and it did deliver a homeland for the Hebrew whether or not we acknowledge it so That is NOT the question. What I am commenting on is the bible itself, -that book that you and others claim as the book to depend on for morality!
If the bible is indeed the "word of god" and HE said to kill everyone even the children, -then that is NOT a the moral guide that I would follow!
PS: And don't patronize me by telling me to read about Queen Esther & Mordecai as if I hadn't read that already many times!
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 1, 2018 4:44:37 GMT -5
well, I haven’t figured out if space aliens and hallow Planetarians have some too? Do you know? 🤷♂️ Friend it is a very simple question ............ in your opinion are Christians the only people with morals ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 1, 2018 4:50:49 GMT -5
Are you justifying this @wally ?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2018 6:14:12 GMT -5
Are you justifying this @wally ? God is just and has a reason for everything he does....what that reason is may be unknown to his children...
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 1, 2018 7:44:06 GMT -5
Are you justifying this @wally ? God is just and has a reason for everything he does....what that reason is may be unknown to his children... What a load of BS @wally ! Tell that to the children that have been sexually abused by so called preachers/pastors ! Or to the women who is abused by her husband ! And you have the hide to say we only have morals because of Christianity !
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Post by friend on Jul 1, 2018 8:11:12 GMT -5
just wondering why other surviving (and thriving? ?)
Cultures ( for example : Hebrew) feel the need to
keep many rules, customs, laws , ordinances, Commandments, and, ETC,?
if human nature is considered “vice-free” and without
any need to impose regulatory measurements?
A free world? Hardly. I would call it the “Wild West!!”
Hmmm🤦🏻♂️
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Post by friend on Jul 1, 2018 8:14:43 GMT -5
ha, trying to bring back on topic. 🤷♂️
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Post by friend on Jul 1, 2018 8:28:41 GMT -5
God is just and has a reason for everything he does....what that reason is may be unknown to his children... What a load of BS @wally ! Tell that to the children that have been sexually abused by so called preachers/pastors ! Or to the women who is abused by her husband ! And you have the hide to say we only have morals because of Christianity ! so your advice is to abandon rules and regulations (written moral code) because there are some hypocrites ? Sorry, It just won’t work 👎
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2018 8:34:24 GMT -5
ha, trying to bring back on topic. 🤷♂️ Haha - a worthy goal! 😃 In response to OP, I don't feel that as many children today in the 2x2s are disadvantaged, or at least not as much as times past. I don't begrudge, for example, not being raised with TV. I don't feel it should've been a "rule", but it's got a lot of advantages. As pointed out elsewhere, streaming via the internet and dvds mean that even among the friends who don't have a TV, most of their kids still seem to have plenty of "worldly" access. Likewise, the strict dress code and other requirements seem to be going by the wayside (at least in the US). We can thank people like Cherie for this - access to historical documents and facts about the 2x2s have made the whole "one True way, true sent servants, so do as we say!" line a much tougher sell.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2018 8:41:36 GMT -5
What a load of BS @wally ! Tell that to the children that have been sexually abused by so called preachers/pastors ! Or to the women who is abused by her husband ! And you have the hide to say we only have morals because of Christianity ! so your advice is to abandon rules and regulations (written moral code) because there are some hypocrites ? Sorry, It just won’t work 👎 I think the response would be to enforce them. For example, workers who molested children should be in prison, not free in society. Workers who harass and rape should be locked up, not attending conventions. Instead, they made rules about hair and suchlike, to have "a form of Godliness". Jesus saw this exact same thing in his day: Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former." In ignoring, moving, defending and excusing the actions of child molesters (all the while slandering the victims), they at least fulfill some scripture in Matthew.
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Post by rational on Jul 1, 2018 9:14:47 GMT -5
And you excuse the amalakites and Haman for plotting the extermination of the Hebrew in 365 B.C. ?? Read your history about Purim and Queen Esther & Mordecai, who saved the Jews single handed, and Queen Esther asked that Hamans 10 sons be hung again in 1946 , Jules Streicher cried, “Purim 1946”. as he was dragged fighting to his gallow to be hung for his part in the Hollocaust. Not a thing to take lightly! Sad day, and it did deliver a homeland for the Hebrew whether or not we acknowledge it so Killing children and infants is inexcusable. No matter the changing times, this, if nothing else, should be true. And before you ask, I am very much against abortion as well. Then I suggest you never have an abortion.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2018 10:43:56 GMT -5
Killing children and infants is inexcusable. No matter the changing times, this, if nothing else, should be true. And before you ask, I am very much against abortion as well. Then I suggest you never have an abortion. well, I rarely hear a person say they wished their parents had aborted them. Indeed, someone who does seriously voice this is viewed with concern. It fails the golden rule miserably. That being said, it's been around so long it's even forbidden in the Hippocratic Oath (original). So I'm under no delusion it won't continue.
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Post by friend on Jul 1, 2018 11:42:06 GMT -5
so your advice is to abandon rules and regulations (written moral code) because there are some hypocrites ? Sorry, It just won’t work 👎 I think the response would be to enforce them. For example, workers who molested children should be in prison, not free in society. Workers who harass and rape should be locked up, not attending conventions. Instead, they made rules about hair and suchlike, to have "a form of Godliness". Jesus saw this exact same thing in his day: Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former." In ignoring, moving, defending and excusing the actions of child molesters (all the while slandering the victims), they at least fulfill some scripture in Matthew. Yes , we can agree. Then shall the precepts be based on the principles that include a just Creator, who , in the a sense of a perfect judicial system, carries out Godly sentences? It seems our founding diplomats liked the idea of a sovereign Being , that rules over all the affairs of humanity . That’s where people need to agree, in as much as Is diplomatically possible
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2018 13:27:35 GMT -5
I think the response would be to enforce them. For example, workers who molested children should be in prison, not free in society. Workers who harass and rape should be locked up, not attending conventions. Instead, they made rules about hair and suchlike, to have "a form of Godliness". Jesus saw this exact same thing in his day: Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former." In ignoring, moving, defending and excusing the actions of child molesters (all the while slandering the victims), they at least fulfill some scripture in Matthew. Yes , we can agree. Then shall the precepts be based on the principles that include a just Creator, who , in the a sense of a perfect judicial system, carries out Godly sentences? It seems our founding diplomats liked the idea of a sovereign Being , that rules over all the affairs of humanity . That’s where people need to agree, in as much as Is diplomatically possible When put broadly and nonspecific, I don't know that it matters on most issues. In a pluralistic setting however, the devil might be in the details. Specific religions differ in what offends their Creator. But I think the notions of a just weight, a perfect balance, a mix of mercy and justice... These could describe the nature of a divine Being or, even if they don't, represent such favorable and fundamental expressions of the adaptive and selective advantage of reciprocity for our species that they are worth pursuing if for no other reason than they seem to work the best. For all intents and purposes, if the divine Being isn't chatty with those in authority (or if they're not convincing enough to the masses) it comes to the same thing anyway.
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