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Post by pa on May 1, 2016 20:50:39 GMT -5
Dear NathanB , do you mind me asking, why do you not think having the emblems at convention is acceptable? After studying it, it would seem that it is scriptural to do so. Where do you read the emblems partake outside of the homes in the New Testament? Having emblems at convention is Australians workers and friends thing! Do you know of any current convention in the world is having emblems at convention?
Paul wrote in I Cor. 11 the Bread and wine held in the homes of believers....
If having the emblems at conventions are scriptures and practical every convention should have it done, but this is NOT the case at most conventions. When the Australian workers pioneered the gospel in other countries, when they started conventions they didn't enforce having emblems at conventions... Having emblems at conventions was mostly taken place in Australia... I have heard in the past they started having emblems at conventions in some South America countries but they discontinued it.
South Africa has it too.
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Post by pa on May 1, 2016 21:08:25 GMT -5
All South African conventions.
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Post by pa on May 1, 2016 21:08:52 GMT -5
And Zimbabwe
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Post by pa on May 1, 2016 21:09:24 GMT -5
And Namibia
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Post by pa on May 1, 2016 21:23:26 GMT -5
So Nathan I understand from you then that it is only a custom then "where" the emblems are taken. Yes the USA workers or any other visitors partake of it at South African conventions too.
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Post by Roselyn T on May 1, 2016 21:30:22 GMT -5
Thanks...obviously taking the emblems is remembering what Christ has done for us. But the place where emblems are taken has absolutely nothing to do with the gospel. Whether in a convention shed, home, church building, under a tree etc. Don't get caught in legalisms around the symbol - just remember what the symbol was for. If that is the case, it doesn't matter where... then there is no need to take the emblems... Then why, some feel the need to take the emblems at conventions... MOST of the friends and workers don't take the emblems at convention around the world but they remember Jesus on Every Sunday morning at conventions. The workers on Sunday morning, who speak on the platform always speak subjects pertain to Jesus life, death on Calvary in rememberance of Him.
Thanks, Pa.... They can keep their emblems at conventions. When they come to USA and many other places, they don't need to take the emblems at conventions on Sunday, I hope they don't mind. However, I hope they will respect our custom and we will respect theirs.
I know many Africans visitor workers come to USA and they respect our custom NO, emblems at convention. When the USA workers go to Australia, South Africa conventions, they will respect their ways of doing things and take the emblems. When in Rome do as the Romans do.
Just another one of the many differences within the " Only right way" Yes nathan, customs of men !
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Post by Roselyn T on May 1, 2016 21:44:17 GMT -5
If that is the case, it doesn't matter where... then there is no need to take the emblems... Then why, some feel the need to take the emblems at conventions... MOST of the friends and workers don't take the emblems at convention around the world but they remember Jesus on Every Sunday morning at conventions. The workers on Sunday morning, who speak on the platform always speak subjects pertain to Jesus life, death on Calvary in rememberance of Him.
Thanks, Pa.... They can keep their emblems at conventions. When they come to USA and many other places, they don't need to take the emblems at conventions on Sunday, I hope they don't mind. However, I hope they will respect our custom and we will respect theirs.
I know many Africans visitor workers come to USA and they respect our custom NO, emblems at convention. When the USA workers go to Australia, South Africa conventions, they will respect their ways of doing things and take the emblems. When in Rome do as the Romans do.
Emblems at conventions is obviously a local thing - US workers have tried in vain to stop it on the basis that the convention is not a home. Seems to me that those US workers are tied up in legalisms ie saying that they can only be taken in a home. Christ as our Saviour and Redeemer is something that we can remember every day - we don't need to take emblems to do that. But obviously, when in a group situation Christ felt it was important to do. There is nothing to say how frequently it should be done and there is nothing to say it couldn't be done at a mid-week Bible study meeting for instance. @ross do you know what the thinking is behind not having the emblems at Convention in the USA ? Its like saying God is only in the "home" and not at Convention !
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Post by fixit on May 1, 2016 21:46:22 GMT -5
The Bible says Jesus spoke openly. He hid nothing. Abuse takes place behind closed doors. Don't expect an answer from a worker, they will try and make out you are the problem. Speak's post is an example of that. This is so sad, this post speaks volumes about the lack of trust for the shepherds within the fellowship,held in low esteem. Something is not sitting right, all is not well in the foal.The time is ripe for a self assessment by those in authority. No one is perfect. Woe unto the shepherds that scatter the flock. The following link would be a good place to start... www.wickedshepherds.com/ObeyThem.html
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Post by fixit on May 1, 2016 21:49:04 GMT -5
Speak, your judgemental questioning only confirms my doubts. Perhaps trying to sort this out, to clarify matters between you two, would have been much better using the PM faciliy; doing it this way is a sure recipe for a slanging match with others joining in. IMO. It's called a forum.
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Post by fixit on May 1, 2016 21:54:50 GMT -5
I agree that a PM would be the proper avenue for that kind of conversation, if I were interested in having one. However, I find it offensive that Speak feels the need to question my spiritual understanding, when I'm asking questions about the setup of the workers hierarchy. I guess if I can't ask questions openly, then I'd rather not post. I'm not interested in debate.... How would spiritual understanding have anything to do with church hierarchy (which is human politics)?
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Post by pa on May 1, 2016 22:36:19 GMT -5
Nathan, go and read Galatians (espesially Chap 3) and Romans. No believers of Christ kept the law.
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Post by pa on May 1, 2016 22:59:36 GMT -5
Nathan..." Peter and the Jewish believers believe in circumcision for the believers and Paul, Barnabas did NOT." Wrongs: 1.) Peter never believed this, nowhere in my Bible do I read this. 2.) "Jewish believers", either they were a true believers in Christ and they did not keep the law or they were non-believers and kept the law, those two are mutually exclusive. Romans & Galatians explains this. There is no half-half believers(Law-Christ). 3.) "Some believers keep the laws of Moses and others did not." - totally wrong, no place in the Bible states this. This is your own thoughts.
Peter did make some mistakes about how he treated Jews and gentiles, but Paul corrected him.
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Post by speak on May 1, 2016 23:48:17 GMT -5
Speak, your judgemental questioning only confirms my doubts. Please show me how my questions are judgmental?
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Post by pa on May 1, 2016 23:48:18 GMT -5
3.) "Some believers keep the laws of Moses and others did not." - totally wrong, no place in the Bible states this. This is your own thoughts. ~~ Read Acts 15:1-2; Read the book of Hebrews. Acts 15:1-2 OKJV "And certain men"...nowhere do I read "Believers". I even checked other translations, nowhere could I find the word "believers". Hebrews?? please point me to some verses stating about these "believers". This forum is about "The Truth". To me the truth is in Jesus.
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Post by speak on May 1, 2016 23:50:27 GMT -5
Speak, your judgemental questioning only confirms my doubts. Perhaps trying to sort this out, to clarify matters between you two, would have been much better using the PM faciliy; doing it this way is a sure recipe for a slanging match with others joining in. IMO. I thought my questions are quite simple and not meant to cause any angst. truevine has no need to worry i will ask no more.
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Post by pa on May 1, 2016 23:51:57 GMT -5
Sorry truevine, Nathan & I have gone far off your original topic.
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Post by pa on May 2, 2016 0:31:43 GMT -5
Acts 15:1-2 OKJV "And certain men"...nowhere do I read "Believers". I even checked other translations, nowhere could I find the word "believers". Hebrews?? please point me to some verses stating about these "believers". This forum is about "The Truth". To me the truth is in Jesus. If some of these men from Judea, were NOT believers how could they go around teachings within the Christians believers? If they were NOT Christians they wouldn't be allow to mingle with in the Christians circle.
The book of Hebrews he was writing to Christians Jews who went back or on the fence of thinking going back to observing the OT so they wouldn't be persecuted by the non-believing Jews.
Rom4:14. They may have been called Christians however their faith was made void. You cannot be a believer with a faith that is void.
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Post by maryhig on May 2, 2016 0:48:43 GMT -5
After attending meetings for 20 plus years, I find there are many things that I didn't know about the truth. This board has helped me sort some of that out, along with other research. I would like to know, though, who are the highest ( in the hierarchy) overseers of the US. I have heard there is one for the Eastern states and one for the Western states. Thanks for your note. As we read God's word, he will open our hearts and minds to His Truth. His truth has nothing to do with organisations or institutions - it is completely about Jesus, his death in our place, His victory over death and His grace which sets us free and we place our trust and lives in His hands. We left meetings some years ago simply because what was preached from the platform in many respects did not line up with God's Word. The more we heard the more questions we had. And if we accept the authority of God and His Word (which we must as Christians) then we must respond to incorrect teaching. How we respond is up to us - we left and now fellowship with other Christians who love and serve the Lord. It has been a rich and rewarding experience. Quote: His truth has nothing to do with organisations or institutions - it is completely about Jesus, his death in our place, His victory over death and His grace which sets us free and we place our trust and lives in His hands..... His truth isn't about the death on the cross, his truth is the true gospel he preached, the true word, true way and life. He came by water and blood, he spoke the truth and lived it out, he preached the true word of God. The spirit is truth and Jesus was in fullness of the holy spirit and truth. His victory was to overcome Satan in his flesh and not sin. And he can give us the strength to do this also.
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Post by howitis on May 2, 2016 1:31:28 GMT -5
Thankyou Ross.Bowden it would seem Ozzies are therefore more heathen than most, by what NathanB says. Partaking of the emblems is a wonderful experience, both uplifting and humbling, lovely to do it in the home where you fellowship, lovely to do it at convention and if perchance the fellowship meeting is a dry creek or river bed, so be it(or wherever else likeminded people are met together)......after all does a 'home' constitute 1, 2 3 or is it 10 rooms?? Away with the legalistic views, open our hearts and NathanB, visit Oz, attend convention, take part in the emblems if you feel and rejoice in the provision that has been so mercifully attended to us.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2016 3:37:04 GMT -5
Perhaps trying to sort this out, to clarify matters between you two, would have been much better using the PM faciliy; doing it this way is a sure recipe for a slanging match with others joining in. IMO. I thought my questions are quite simple and not meant to cause any angst. truevine has no need to worry i will ask no more. The problem is that your questions however mild and genuine, and I do believe that they are genuine and well intended: seeking information/clarity, confirmation; however, they seem to have the opposite effect of waving a red rag to a bull. Folks seem to see them as being provocative and they tend to respond accordingly. Well that is my assessment anyway.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2016 3:48:03 GMT -5
Perhaps trying to sort this out, to clarify matters between you two, would have been much better using the PM faciliy; doing it this way is a sure recipe for a slanging match with others joining in. IMO. It's called a forum. Yes I am quite aware of that, and they are open as well as private facilities on this forum- a choice.
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Post by fixit on May 2, 2016 6:03:39 GMT -5
Quote: His truth has nothing to do with organisations or institutions - it is completely about Jesus, his death in our place, His victory over death and His grace which sets us free and we place our trust and lives in His hands..... His truth isn't about the death on the cross, his truth is the true gospel he preached, the true word, true way and life. He came by water and blood, he spoke the truth and lived it out, he preached the true word of God. The spirit is truth and Jesus was in fullness of the holy spirit and truth. His victory was to overcome Satan in his flesh and not sin. And he can give us the strength to do this also. I'm sorry Maryhig but Christians do not believe as you do concerning what happened on the cross. The Bible is very clear on this. Not just a few verses but hundreds. If there was no death on the cross there is no solution for sin, no victory over Satan and no need for the resurrection. Without the ressurection the Christian faith does not stand and our faith is useless (1 Cor 15) It is the absolute foundation of the Christian faith. Christians don't believe in infant baptism, or in preachers wearing special garb to differentiate them from ordinary believers.
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Post by maryhig on May 2, 2016 6:34:31 GMT -5
Quote: His truth has nothing to do with organisations or institutions - it is completely about Jesus, his death in our place, His victory over death and His grace which sets us free and we place our trust and lives in His hands..... His truth isn't about the death on the cross, his truth is the true gospel he preached, the true word, true way and life. He came by water and blood, he spoke the truth and lived it out, he preached the true word of God. The spirit is truth and Jesus was in fullness of the holy spirit and truth. His victory was to overcome Satan in his flesh and not sin. And he can give us the strength to do this also. I'm sorry Maryhig but Christians do not believe as you do concerning what happened on the cross. The Bible is very clear on this. Not just a few verses but hundreds. If there was no death on the cross there is no solution for sin, no victory over Satan and no need for the resurrection. Without the ressurection the Christian faith does not stand and our faith is useless (1 Cor 15) It is the absolute foundation of the Christian faith. Yes, I know we don't agree on this. And I can bring out many verses where it said says that the crucifixion was wrong, but really I'm not talking about that. I'm trying to say that there is more to Jesus than him dying on the cross, there is his whole life and the whole gospel, you don't speak much of that, you just really speak of the cross, yet his life and teachings are so important. And I was just pointing out that the truth isn't the death on the cross. It doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible. Jesus is the truth, he was full of the holy spirit and he said himself that he was born and came into the world to bring the truth. The truth is in his word and his life, he is the way to follow, and we receive the truth through the holy spirit who is the spirit of truth. The truth is in his life. And if his life is within us, then we are free from the chains of this world. No, I'm not a mainstream Christian, I have never said that I am. I am a Christian in that i follow Christ. I am more like the Christians of the first century before the catholic church got their hands on the teachings of Jesus. The first Christians didn't glorify the cross, they saw the cross as a weapon of torture. As do I. I do believe that Jesus had to suffer the cross, because Jesus had to suffer whatever Satan put him through, and overcome him. Showing Gods love, forgiveness and mercy even though he was persecuted. Jesus bore his cross and endured to the end and overcame Satan. He came and showed us the way, and he tells us to take up our cross and do the same and follow him and he will give us the strength to overcome and we will do so by the power of the spirit, as he did.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 2, 2016 6:48:17 GMT -5
maryhig, do you believe Christ's death was a sacrifice of atonement?
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Post by maryhig on May 2, 2016 6:56:33 GMT -5
maryhig, do you believe Christ's death was a sacrifice of atonement? No, not as you do. I believe he came as a living sacrifice and was dead to this world, not living by his will, but living by the will of God. I believe that we are saved by his life, as it says in the Bible. I believe he came as an example for us to follow. And when we do, then we are blessed by the grace of God with the holy spirit who gives us the strength daily to overcome Satan. And the fruits of the spirit will be manifest in our lives. It says in the scriptures that we must endure to the end to be saved. These aren't my words, but the words of Jesus. If we have to endure to the end to be saved, then how are we already eternally saved and going to heaven? We won't know that until we have breathed our last breath. And only God knows who is and who isn't saved. Not any man.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 2, 2016 7:23:39 GMT -5
maryhig , do you believe Christ's death was a sacrifice of atonement? No, not as you do. I believe he came as a living sacrifice and was dead to this world, not living by his will, but living by the will of God. I believe that we are saved by his life, as it says in the Bible. I believe he came as an example for us to follow. And when we do, then we are blessed by the grace of God with the holy spirit who gives us the strength daily to overcome Satan. And the fruits of the spirit will be manifest in our lives. It says in the scriptures that we must endure to the end to be saved. These aren't my words, but the words of Jesus. If we have to endure to the end to be saved, then how are we already eternally saved and going to heaven? We won't know that until we have breathed our last breath. And only God knows who is and who isn't saved. Not any man. Romans 3:25 says God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood.I can't find any mention of Christ as a living sacrifice - his sacrifice was by his death. We are to be living sacrifices as an act of worship (Romans 12), because of Christ's sacrifice.
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Post by pa on May 2, 2016 7:32:51 GMT -5
John 14:6 Jesus is the Truth, He is the way,He is the life. That is why we have to keep our eyes on Him.
He left us with an account of His words and an account of His life on earth, words of truth and an account of a life lived in truth. The truth is not His words or His life on the earth. Jesus is the Truth.
Old Testament showed us the purpose He came to earth was as the offering.To pay the price which we could never pay us to get the gift of salvation through grace. As His children we are so grateful for this marvelous gift that is may sound like we don't talk much about his earthly life. 1 Pet 2:24
Jesus is the Truth and the Lamb slayed for us, that is what is so precious to us and His life as he lived on earth and His words follow on from this. A person can live out every word of Jesus and not have the truth. However when a person have the Truth as it is in Jesus then the words of Jesus will be manifested in that person's life by the very nature of having the Truth as it is in Jesus. Being a new creature.
Even in the letters of the Apostles there is very little mentioned about the direct words the Jesus spoke or the life He lived, but heaps about His death on the cross and the significance of it.
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Post by maryhig on May 2, 2016 7:48:09 GMT -5
John 14:6 Jesus is the Truth, He is the way,He is the life. That is why we have to keep our eyes on Him. He left us with an account of His words and an account of His life on earth, words of truth and an account of a life lived in truth. The truth is not His words or His life on the earth. Jesus is the Truth. Old Testament showed us the purpose He came to earth was as the offering.To pay the price which we could never pay us to get the gift of salvation through grace. As His children we are so grateful for this marvelous gift that is may sound like we don't talk much about his earthly life. 1 Pet 2:24 Jesus is the Truth and the Lamb slayed for us, that is what is so precious to us and His life as he lived on earth and His words follow on from this. A person can live out every word of Jesus and not have the truth. However when a person have the Truth as it is in Jesus then the words of Jesus will be manifested in that person's life by the very nature of having the Truth as it is in Jesus. Being a new creature. Even in the letters of the Apostles there is very little mentioned about the direct words the Jesus spoke or the life He lived, but heaps about His death on the cross and the significance of it. I see those scriptures differently to you. Jesus himself said in John 7 and John 8 that it was wrong to kill him. He even said they are doing the works of their father the devil. Peter said that if they had of known, they would not give killed the prince of life. But the crucifixion isn't what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the truth. And yes Jesus is the truth. Everything about him is the truth. But nowhere in the Bible does it say that the truth is the crucifixion. Which is what is being stated.
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