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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2016 12:41:40 GMT -5
No problem, I am doing ok now, quite happy. No other side of the fence when I die= nothing lost. If indeed there is something on the other side of the fence when I die, then bingo!!! Laughing all the way up to heaven and what a joy that will be when all the faithful get to heaven. Remember that old song: "When we all get to heaven?" No problem, I am doing ok now, quite happy. No other side of the fence when I die= nothing lost. If indeed there is something on the other side of the fence when I die, then bingo!!! Laughing all the way up to heaven and what a joy that will be when all the faithful get to heaven. Remember that old song: "When we all get to heaven?" No problem, I am doing ok now, quite happy. No other side of the fence when I die= nothing lost. If indeed there is something on the other side of the fence when I die, then bingo!!! Laughing all the way up to heaven and what a joy that will be when all the faithful get to heaven. Remember that old song: "When we all get to heaven?" You are evoking Pascal's Wager, which really isn't a wager although he called it a bet, it is an argument about the existence of God. "It posits that humans all bet with their lives either that God exists or that he does not. Based on the assumption that the stakes are infinite if God exists and that there is at least a small probability that God in fact exists, Pascal argues that a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.), whereas they stand to receive infinite gains (as represented by eternity in Heaven) and avoid infinite losses (eternity in Hell)." wiki However, when one takes a close look at it there IS something to lose by believing in god, actually quite a lot.
One puts a lot of energy and time into the believing in a god. Think of all the time, energy, money spent on building maintaining places of worship, ea.convention grounds, time going to & from meetings spent in prayer & reading the bible
Then suppose that it is the wrong god you have worshiped or maybe in the wrong way, the wrong denomination of the 1000's of Christian church? Or even, (God forbid -one of those multitude on NON-Christian gods?) All that effort lost for nothing!
Also if it is just a matter of wagering that if you believe I doubt that you are going to fool your God since he is suppose to know everything including what you are thinking.
Another consideration is is that I can't just choose to believe in something I see no evidence for. However, you do choose to believe in something that comes from an 1000 year old document that is highly contradictive within itself! Ah! Your last paragraph sums it up very well, that explains the difference between us on that level. May that same God bless you and yours real good, for His mercies endureth for ever..
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Post by maryhig on May 16, 2016 12:47:52 GMT -5
Why Jesus came to earth. Hebs. 10:9 "Then he said , Lo I come to do thy will O God. He taketh away the first that he may established the second." Talking about Jesus giving himself as a sin offering "once for all". The old law of animal sacrifice didn't sanctify people of their sins. Jesus did come to do the will of God but he also said this. John 18:37 To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. Establish is to set up, start or begin. He did this by being a witness of the truth and preaching the Gospel of the kingdom of God. To bring those who hear his voice to repentance and those who follow him into a new and living way, who then if they truly follow him have the blessing of the Holy spirit who teaches us the right way within our hearts and guides us in the truth daily putting us to death daily. Jesus is the cornerstone that we are to be built upon. And to be an example for us to follow. It says further down in the same chapter as you have quoted. Hebrews 10 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 16, 2016 15:54:46 GMT -5
Why Jesus came to earth. Hebs. 10:9 "Then he said , Lo I come to do thy will O God. He taketh away the first that he may established the second." Talking about Jesus giving himself as a sin offering "once for all". The old law of animal sacrifice didn't sanctify people of their sins. Jesus did come to do the will of God but he also said this. John 18:37 To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. Establish is to set up, start or begin. He did this by being a witness of the truth and preaching the Gospel of the kingdom of God. To bring those who hear his voice to repentance and those who follow him into a new and living way, who then if they truly follow him have the blessing of the Holy spirit who teaches us the right way within our hearts and guides us in the truth daily putting us to death daily. Jesus is the cornerstone that we are to be built upon. And to be an example for us to follow. It says further down in the same chapter as you have quoted. Hebrews 10 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh That is the will of God. When reading in Malachi, one can understand why God's will be to establish the truth. The children had gotten so far off track obeying Moses' law that God told them He would not have sacrifice but that which is pure which is the truth. He also said He was giving salvation to the heathen nations due to the children of Israel's sins etc. So naturally He sent His only begotten Son to establish that truth.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 16, 2016 16:38:02 GMT -5
You aren't that unique, Maryhig, I have been where you are. I was just as sure as you are that god existed. However when one learns differently it isn't a matter of "denial" it is a matter of understanding some real and concrete. I also thought that I had the same kind of "peace" that you believe that you have. You have not been where maryhig is. You do not know how your experiences and thoughts and feelings compare to hers. We are all unique. You are not necessarily more 'advanced' than she is because you have forsaken a belief that she holds. The series of experiences you have gone through in your life is not some natural and necessary process all people must go through if they are to 'advance' in understanding. Perhaps you will not experience supernatural 'happenings' ... until you die. You have not yet been on that "side of the fence". Where did I say anything about being more 'advanced' than she? Aren't you assuming something rather than what I said?
Do you yourself consider that it is a more 'advanced' way of thinking perhaps?
I was just stating how I had once felt the same as she still does. I was just as sure as she is that god existed I was just as sure as she is that I had the "peace" that she also claims. So, yes, - in that way, I have been where she is..
Now I no longer have to try to deny my innate intellect & twist the scripture in order to make it fit the kind of loving god that it is represented to be. Now that I don't have to try and believe in ANY supernatural being or paranormal incident. I don't need to even think about not only gods, angels & devils existing, -but also any other supernatural beings, like ghosts or paranormal incidents like the dead appearing in seances.
Because no matter how one tries make the supernatural beings or paranormal relate only to the Christian god, -once you suspend your own sense of reality for the sake of that belief, -you are opening up the door to all the others out there.
You cannot in good conscious deny the possibility of all those other multitude supernatural beings or paranormal incidents now and through out the history of mankind
Yes, I know freedom. I know peace.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 16, 2016 16:46:38 GMT -5
You aren't that unique, Maryhig, I have been where you are. I was just as sure as you are that god existed.
However when one learns differently it isn't a matter of "denial" it is a matter of understanding some real and concrete. I also thought that I had the same kind of "peace" that you believe that you have.
Neither am I interested in building up stuff in the world. I also feel a peace like I've never felt before, the "peace" of knowing that there are NO supernatural, paranormal beings or goings on. What is is what it is.
That I can depend on there being no interference from supernatural beings or paranormal happenings gives me freedom from a huge concern that I once had.
THAT is true freedom! THAT is peace. Have you ever known that God truly exists, I don't mean maybe, or you believe in your heart he does. I mean know, have had proof, and you definitely know without even a tiny doubt that God is absolutely and definitely there? YES, MARYHIG!
I knew that God truly existed, not maybe, but in me heart. I knew, had proof, definitely knew without even a tiny doubt that God was absolutely and definitely there! Yes!
One has to if you they sincerely believe as I did! Do you think that I am making it all up?
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Post by dmmichgood on May 16, 2016 16:53:50 GMT -5
You are evoking Pascal's Wager, which really isn't a wager although he called it a bet, it is an argument about the existence of God. "It posits that humans all bet with their lives either that God exists or that he does not. Based on the assumption that the stakes are infinite if God exists and that there is at least a small probability that God in fact exists, Pascal argues that a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.), whereas they stand to receive infinite gains (as represented by eternity in Heaven) and avoid infinite losses (eternity in Hell)." wiki However, when one takes a close look at it there IS something to lose by believing in god, actually quite a lot.
One puts a lot of energy and time into the believing in a god. Think of all the time, energy, money spent on building maintaining places of worship, ea.convention grounds, time going to & from meetings spent in prayer & reading the bible
Then suppose that it is the wrong god you have worshiped or maybe in the wrong way, the wrong denomination of the 1000's of Christian church? Or even, (God forbid -one of those multitude on NON-Christian gods?) All that effort lost for nothing!
Also if it is just a matter of wagering that if you believe I doubt that you are going to fool your God since he is suppose to know everything including what you are thinking.
Another consideration is is that I can't just choose to believe in something I see no evidence for. However, you do choose to believe in something that comes from an 1000 year old document that is highly contradictive within itself! Ah! Your last paragraph sums it up very well, that explains the difference between us on that level. May that same God bless you and yours real good, for His mercies endureth for ever.. So you are saying that you do choose to believe in something that comes from an 1000 year old document that is highly contradictive within itself?
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Post by maryhig on May 16, 2016 17:25:58 GMT -5
Have you ever known that God truly exists, I don't mean maybe, or you believe in your heart he does. I mean know, have had proof, and you definitely know without even a tiny doubt that God is absolutely and definitely there? YES, MARYHIG!
I knew that God truly existed, not maybe, but in me heart. I knew, had proof, definitely knew without even a tiny doubt that God was absolutely and definitely there! Yes!
One has to if you they sincerely believe as I did! Do you think that I am making it all up?
Well, that's the strange thing, because you have said time after time that there is no proof that God exists. That you have searched and found nothing, you've examined various religions And have come to the conclusion that there is no God based on you not having proof. That's where we differ, I haven't done an extensive search for God. I heard his word and I believed and have deep faith in him. And he has shown me that he's there. Not in an imaginary make believe way, but in a way that I can't deny him. So here's the thing, if you know God like I do, then you're not an atheist. Because I know God exists, but rather you are denying him. Because if you have been where I am, then you know he's there.
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 16, 2016 19:03:39 GMT -5
YES, MARYHIG!
I knew that God truly existed, not maybe, but in me heart. I knew, had proof, definitely knew without even a tiny doubt that God was absolutely and definitely there! Yes!
One has to if you they sincerely believe as I did! Do you think that I am making it all up?
Well, that's the strange thing, because you have said time after time that there is no proof that God exists. That you have searched and found nothing, you've examined various religions And have come to the conclusion that there is no God based on you not having proof. That's where we differ, I haven't done an extensive search for God. I heard his word and I believed and have deep faith in him. And he has shown me that he's there. Not in an imaginary make believe way, but in a way that I can't deny him. So here's the thing, if you know God like I do, then you're not an atheist. Because I know God exists, but rather you are denying him. Because if you have been where I am, then you know he's there. John 20:29" Jesus saith unto him(doubting Thomas), Thomas because thou hast 'seen me' thou hast believed: blessed are they that have 'not seen' and 'yet' believe." Seems some have to see to believe ; others go on faith even in Jesus day.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 17, 2016 0:52:57 GMT -5
YES, MARYHIG!
I knew that God truly existed, not maybe, but in me heart. I knew, had proof, definitely knew without even a tiny doubt that God was absolutely and definitely there! Yes!
One has to if you they sincerely believe as I did! Do you think that I am making it all up?
Well, that's the strange thing, because you have said time after time that there is no proof that God exists. That you have searched and found nothing, you've examined various religions And have come to the conclusion that there is no God based on you not having proof. That's where we differ, I haven't done an extensive search for God. I heard his word and I believed and have deep faith in him. And he has shown me that he's there. Not in an imaginary make believe way, but in a way that I can't deny him. So here's the thing, if you know God like I do, then you're not an atheist. Because I know God exists, but rather you are denying him. Because if you have been where I am, then you know he's there. Why is it so difficult for you to believe that I once believed just like you do? We differ because as you say, you "haven't done an extensive search for God."
We are all products of the milieu into which we are born; -the people, our physical surroundings, the social conditions and events that provide the environment into which we are born & live. Born into a different milieu and you and I would no doubt have believed in something totally different.
You think that I am denying god because I no longer believe. You want to say that I am denying god, while I am telling you that now after a lot of study into the idea of a god that I do not see any evidence for a god.
What I do see, is the desire to want to believe in a god. I see it in the history of mankind. They desired a god to answer their questions, take care of them in times of trouble, someone that they wanted to be able to look up to, and someone that was better than themselves
That is why their gods differed from time to time and from one place to another. I'm sure that you would not believe in most of those gods.
People here on TMB can't even agree on the characteristics of Jesus, -let alone other gods at other times!
I would be open to the idea of a god but I would have to have a lot more solid proof than just someone simply saying that they KNOW GOD,- because I have already been in that place & done that!
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Post by maryhig on May 17, 2016 1:49:26 GMT -5
Well, that's the strange thing, because you have said time after time that there is no proof that God exists. That you have searched and found nothing, you've examined various religions And have come to the conclusion that there is no God based on you not having proof. That's where we differ, I haven't done an extensive search for God. I heard his word and I believed and have deep faith in him. And he has shown me that he's there. Not in an imaginary make believe way, but in a way that I can't deny him. So here's the thing, if you know God like I do, then you're not an atheist. Because I know God exists, but rather you are denying him. Because if you have been where I am, then you know he's there. Why is it so difficult for you to believe that I once believed just like you do? We differ because as you say, you "haven't done an extensive search for God."
We are all products of the milieu into which we are born; -the people, our physical surroundings, the social conditions and events that provide the environment into which we are born & live. Born into a different milieu and you and I would no doubt have believed in something totally different.
You think that I am denying god because I no longer believe. You want to say that I am denying god, while I am telling you that now after a lot of study into the idea of a god that I do not see any evidence for a god.
What I do see, is the desire to want to believe in a god. I see it in the history of mankind. They desired a god to answer their questions, take care of them in times of trouble, someone that they wanted to be able to look up to, and someone that was better than themselves
That is why their gods differed from time to time and from one place to another. I'm sure that you would not believe in most of those gods.
People here on TMB can't even agree on the characteristics of Jesus, -let alone other gods at other times!
I would be open to the idea of a god but I would have to have a lot more solid proof than just someone simply saying that they KNOW GOD,- because I have already been in that place & done that!
You ask "Why is it so difficult to believe that I once believed just like you do" But what I don't think that you're seeing is that I don't only believe, I know, I don't think I know or maybe I know, I definitely know! You may well have believed in God, but not as I do, you have come to the conclusion after research that God doesn't exist. And that's the difference, I absolutely know that he does exist, as I've had proof in my life. I know for a fact that God is there. Where as you've said, you've had no proof. I know by your own words that you didn't believe as I do, because you've never had proof of his existence but I have. Why is it so difficult for you to see that I'm not like you? and that I don't need to research religions and various texts to find God, I believe with my whole heart and love him deeply. God is spirit, and you don't need to trawl through endless religions to find him. You need have faith and to love him from your heart. John 14 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him...... And the reason I believe the bible, is because I can hear Gods wisdom in it through his people. And I believe Jesus is the Christ, he is anointed of God, and you can hear the full wisdom and see the full love of God through him. Nowhere have I read or heard of anyone with such wisdom, Jesus has to have come from God. To show the love, compassion and mercy and strength that he did, and its plain to see that his wisdom doesn't come from a fleshly mind, it comes from God. When I read the Bible, and the gospels in particular, it touches me deep within my heart, and when I see what Jesus went through and the suffering be bore to bring Gods word to us, it makes me cry. To see the love that he poured out of his heart and showing no malice and just took being persecuted and still showed love, when I read about him it humbles me, Jesus came to bring us back to God. God wants us all back, but without true faith and love, we won't see or feel anything.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 17, 2016 2:22:01 GMT -5
Why is it so difficult for you to believe that I once believed just like you do? We differ because as you say, you "haven't done an extensive search for God."
We are all products of the milieu into which we are born; -the people, our physical surroundings, the social conditions and events that provide the environment into which we are born & live. Born into a different milieu and you and I would no doubt have believed in something totally different.
You think that I am denying god because I no longer believe. You want to say that I am denying god, while I am telling you that now after a lot of study into the idea of a god that I do not see any evidence for a god.
What I do see, is the desire to want to believe in a god. I see it in the history of mankind. They desired a god to answer their questions, take care of them in times of trouble, someone that they wanted to be able to look up to, and someone that was better than themselves
That is why their gods differed from time to time and from one place to another. I'm sure that you would not believe in most of those gods.
People here on TMB can't even agree on the characteristics of Jesus, -let alone other gods at other times!
I would be open to the idea of a god but I would have to have a lot more solid proof than just someone simply saying that they KNOW GOD,- because I have already been in that place & done that!
You ask "Why is it so difficult to believe that I once believed just like you do" But what I don't think that you're seeing is that I don't only believe, I know, I don't think I know or maybe I know, I definitely know! You may well have believed in God, but not as I do, you have come to the conclusion after research that God doesn't exist. And that's the difference, I absolutely know that he does exist, as I've had proof in my life. I know for a fact that God is there. Where as you've said, you've had no proof. I know by your own words that you didn't believe as I do, because you've never had proof of his existence but I have. Why is it so difficult for you to see that I'm not like you? and that I don't need to research religions and various texts to find God, I believe with my whole heart and love him deeply. God is spirit, and you don't need to trawl through endless religions to find him. You need have faith and to love him from your heart. John 14 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him...... And the reason I believe the bible, is because I can hear Gods wisdom in it through his people. And I believe Jesus is the Christ, he is anointed of God, and you can hear the full wisdom and see the full love of God through him. Nowhere have I read or heard of anyone with such wisdom, Jesus has to have come from God. To show the love, compassion and mercy and strength that he did, and its plain to see that his wisdom doesn't come from a fleshly mind, it comes from God. When I read the Bible, and the gospels in particular, it touches me deep within my heart, and when I see what Jesus went through and the suffering be bore to bring Gods word to us, it makes me cry. To see the love that he poured out of his heart and showing no malice and just took being persecuted and still showed love, when I read about him it humbles me, Jesus came to bring us back to God. God wants us all back, but without true faith and love, we won't see or feel anything. I am sorry maryhig. I cannot make it any plainer than I have.
I doubt that I can ever convince you that I really have been where you are.
We will just have to leave it at that. Cheers!
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Post by maryhig on May 17, 2016 3:15:03 GMT -5
You ask "Why is it so difficult to believe that I once believed just like you do" But what I don't think that you're seeing is that I don't only believe, I know, I don't think I know or maybe I know, I definitely know! You may well have believed in God, but not as I do, you have come to the conclusion after research that God doesn't exist. And that's the difference, I absolutely know that he does exist, as I've had proof in my life. I know for a fact that God is there. Where as you've said, you've had no proof. I know by your own words that you didn't believe as I do, because you've never had proof of his existence but I have. Why is it so difficult for you to see that I'm not like you? and that I don't need to research religions and various texts to find God, I believe with my whole heart and love him deeply. God is spirit, and you don't need to trawl through endless religions to find him. You need have faith and to love him from your heart. John 14 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him...... And the reason I believe the bible, is because I can hear Gods wisdom in it through his people. And I believe Jesus is the Christ, he is anointed of God, and you can hear the full wisdom and see the full love of God through him. Nowhere have I read or heard of anyone with such wisdom, Jesus has to have come from God. To show the love, compassion and mercy and strength that he did, and its plain to see that his wisdom doesn't come from a fleshly mind, it comes from God. When I read the Bible, and the gospels in particular, it touches me deep within my heart, and when I see what Jesus went through and the suffering be bore to bring Gods word to us, it makes me cry. To see the love that he poured out of his heart and showing no malice and just took being persecuted and still showed love, when I read about him it humbles me, Jesus came to bring us back to God. God wants us all back, but without true faith and love, we won't see or feel anything. I am sorry maryhig. I cannot make it any plainer than I have.
I doubt that I can ever convince you that I really have been where you are.
We will just have to leave it at that. Cheers!
Can I just ask you one last question please, then I won't say anything else. Have you had absolute proof that God exists, so that you are in no doubt whatsoever of his existence?
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Post by rational on May 17, 2016 10:54:40 GMT -5
I have no doubt God is love, it says in the Bible that God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosever should believe in him should not perish, but should have everlasting life. There are many people that have sacrificed themselves for others. It may have been an act of love but dose that make the person god? And those who claim these attributes of god cannot provide any proof of their beliefs. There are those of use who do not believe in god who wonder what fleshly desires you feel I have that I am not able to overcome that you have but need god to overcome? What wrong thoughts do you imagine I have that you do not have? I have read the gospels. How do you think I learned that is a person does not do as god says they will be sent to suffer for all eternity? How would I know about a god that approved of human sacrifice? Many. The fear of hell and the promise of heaven will lead people to do irrational things. And to be more concrete - the veracity of the writings concerning these events is not 100% certain.According to what was written. But there have been many people who lived their lives in a way they thought was for god. And many died for their beliefs. Does that make them equal to Jesus? Saving from what? Original sin? Have faith in what? maryhig, I appreciate your faith. But in reading what you wrote you are saying that people who do not believe as you do will suffer for eternity.
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 17, 2016 11:44:03 GMT -5
Absolutely - I deleted the picture because it's shameful.
I'm still scratching my head as to why Fixit calls it one my Anglican churches!
I certainly wouldn't go to a service there but I probably would drop in and talk to the minister to give him some robust feedback on his sign.
Reminds me that Jesus said that there would be those who claim he is here or there..but not to believe them. Don't go there.etc
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 17, 2016 11:50:29 GMT -5
I have no doubt God is love, it says in the Bible that God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that wosever should believe in him should not perish, but should have everlasting life. There are many people that have sacrificed themselves for others. It may have been an act of love but dose that make the person god? And those who claim these attributes of god cannot provide any proof of their beliefs. There are those of use who do not believe in god who wonder what fleshly desires you feel I have that I am not able to overcome that you have but need god to overcome? What wrong thoughts do you imagine I have that you do not have? I have read the gospels. How do you think I learned that is a person does not do as god says they will be sent to suffer for all eternity? How would I know about a god that approved of human sacrifice? Many. The fear of hell and the promise of heaven will lead people to do irrational things. And to be more concrete - the veracity of the writings concerning these events is not 100% certain.According to what was written. But there have been many people who lived their lives in a way they thought was for god. And many died for their beliefs. Does that make them equal to Jesus? Saving from what? Original sin? Have faith in what? maryhig, I appreciate your faith. But in reading what you wrote you are saying that people who do not believe as you do will suffer for eternity. The bible indicates this about believers vs non-belivers. "But without faith it is impossible to please Him:for he that cometh to God must believe that He is; and 'that' He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. Seems at lease there are no rewards for the nonbelievers.
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Post by rational on May 17, 2016 16:46:59 GMT -5
Seems at lease there are no rewards for the nonbelievers. And no proof that there is a reward for the believers.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 17, 2016 17:37:18 GMT -5
I am sorry maryhig. I cannot make it any plainer than I have.
I doubt that I can ever convince you that I really have been where you are.
We will just have to leave it at that. Cheers!
Can I just ask you one last question please, then I won't say anything else. Have you had absolute proof that God exists, so that you are in no doubt whatsoever of his existence? Maryhig, I really don't think that no matter what I say that it will help you understand what I am trying to say, but... You have presented in past posts what you believed to be "absolute proof that God exists."
I have had the same kind of experience that you did and believed at that time that it was "absolute proof that God exists."
YES I DID! I had absolutely "no doubt whatsoever of his existence!
YES I DID!
Later I realized that it really was NOT any proof at all and that I only thought of it as "proof" because I had been raised to believe in that kind of way. Plus, I wanted to believe it! I became aware of how our minds work. ALL of us!
If we just let our minds run wild without reigning it in with some serious critical thinking on issues, -we can be convinced of just about ANYTHING! No matter how weird & crazy it is!
And the really bad part of that is there are people out there that take advantage of that and if we aren't careful will fool us completely. ANYTIME that someone tells us something that does not sound rational, we just need to stop really look at it in the light of is it possible, is it probable.
PS: Note one poster here on TMB who is absolutely convinced of aliens that have visited the earth. He overlooks completely whether it possible and no matter how much you try to show him that it isn't, he can't see the truth that he has been misled.
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Post by maryhig on May 17, 2016 19:12:21 GMT -5
Can I just ask you one last question please, then I won't say anything else. Have you had absolute proof that God exists, so that you are in no doubt whatsoever of his existence? Maryhig, I really don't think that no matter what I say that it will help you understand what I am trying to say, but... You have presented in past posts what you believed to be "absolute proof that God exists."
I have had the same kind of experience that you did and believed at that time that it was "absolute proof that God exists."
YES I DID! I had absolutely "no doubt whatsoever of his existence!
YES I DID!
Later I realized that it really was NOT any proof at all and that I only thought of it as "proof" because I had been raised to believe in that kind of way. Plus, I wanted to believe it! I became aware of how our minds work. ALL of us!
If we just let our minds run wild without reigning it in with some serious critical thinking on issues, -we can be convinced of just about ANYTHING! No matter how weird & crazy it is!
And the really bad part of that is there are people out there that take advantage of that and if we aren't careful will fool us completely. ANYTIME that someone tells us something that does not sound rational, we just need to stop really look at it in the light of is it possible, is it probable.
PS: Note one poster here on TMB who is absolutely convinced of aliens that have visited the earth. He overlooks completely whether it possible and no matter how much you try to show him that it isn't, he can't see the truth that he has been misled. Really? So I have told on here before, of the time that my son and I had a conversation about God. He asked me a question in the afternoon which I couldn't answer. We forgot all about the conversation. My uncle, reading the bible in the meeting that evening, many hours later, stopped, pointed at my son and said good question, then repeated the question and gave the answer. My uncle did this as if he had just heard the question, but the question was asked hours before, in another house and we hadn't said anything to anyone about our discussion. We were stunned, my uncle stopped reading in the middle of the meeting to do this, everybody there we're saying to each other "but nobody asked that, why is he saying that" but my son did ask that, only many hours before, with only him and I there! So how did that happen? and that is only one experience, I have had others like this.
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Post by maryhig on May 17, 2016 20:04:17 GMT -5
I have no doubt God is love, it says in the Bible that God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosever should believe in him should not perish, but should have everlasting life. There are many people that have sacrificed themselves for others. It may have been an act of love but dose that make the person god? And those who claim these attributes of god cannot provide any proof of their beliefs. There are those of use who do not believe in god who wonder what fleshly desires you feel I have that I am not able to overcome that you have but need god to overcome? What wrong thoughts do you imagine I have that you do not have? I have read the gospels. How do you think I learned that is a person does not do as god says they will be sent to suffer for all eternity? How would I know about a god that approved of human sacrifice? Many. The fear of hell and the promise of heaven will lead people to do irrational things. And to be more concrete - the veracity of the writings concerning these events is not 100% certain.According to what was written. But there have been many people who lived their lives in a way they thought was for god. And many died for their beliefs. Does that make them equal to Jesus? Saving from what? Original sin? Have faith in what? maryhig, I appreciate your faith. But in reading what you wrote you are saying that people who do not believe as you do will suffer for eternity. First of all, we don't even know who or where anyone is definitely going when they die, I don't even think about it. I leave that in God's hands. I've always said that I don't call anyone unsaved of eternally saved, even myself. When I say saved, I mean from my past sins, before I truly turned to God, and being daily saved by the spirit. No one knows who is and who isn't eternally saved, only God. Any of us can fall at any time and others can turn to him at anytime, right up until our last breath. Just look at the thief on the cross. Saved in his last hours and going to paradise. So I just take each day as it comes and pray to God for the strength to overcome in that day. As for others living and giving their lives for God like Jesus, the difference that I see between Jesus and others is his wisdom and understanding. I've never heard of anyone who taught or spoke like him. His courage was extraordinary as was the love that was in him that he poured out, even to those who were murdering him. Asking God to forgive them. He absolutely came from God, in that I have no doubt. And he fulfilled all the prophesies told of him in the old testament. Jesus is the Christ, I have no doubt whatsoever on that. By the way, I have never said that Jesus is God. Quote: Saving from what? Original sin? Have faith in what? Having faith in God and being saved from our own sins, every day. We all do wrong, but many see themselves as good and don't see the many things they do are wrong, they see themselves as ok. God turns that right on its head, and if we truly have his indwelling spirit, then he shows us our sins within our hearts by the spirit, and we are taught by jesus that when we know it's wrong, don't do it, deny it . We have free will, and we have choices to make every day. We all go wrong, but with the spirit dwelling in the heart, we should be overcoming the wrong that we do more and more as we become stronger in God and God restrains us giving us a very strong conscience. I am a completely different person to what I used to be. I feel like God has lifted much of that wrong that was in my heart and taken it away. I still go wrong, I'm not perfect, but he is definitely cleaning me out, and the things I did before mean nothing to me anymore. And he helps me overcome my wrong thoughts and feelings every day. I know he is putting my flesh to death daily, and I feel a love in my heart that is stronger than I've every felt before. I know that God is there!
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Post by dmmichgood on May 17, 2016 20:22:54 GMT -5
Maryhig, I really don't think that no matter what I say that it will help you understand what I am trying to say, but... You have presented in past posts what you believed to be "absolute proof that God exists."
I have had the same kind of experience that you did and believed at that time that it was "absolute proof that God exists."
YES I DID! I had absolutely "no doubt whatsoever of his existence!
YES I DID!
Later I realized that it really was NOT any proof at all and that I only thought of it as "proof" because I had been raised to believe in that kind of way. Plus, I wanted to believe it! I became aware of how our minds work. ALL of us!
If we just let our minds run wild without reigning it in with some serious critical thinking on issues, -we can be convinced of just about ANYTHING! No matter how weird & crazy it is!
And the really bad part of that is there are people out there that take advantage of that and if we aren't careful will fool us completely. ANYTIME that someone tells us something that does not sound rational, we just need to stop really look at it in the light of is it possible, is it probable.
PS: Note one poster here on TMB who is absolutely convinced of aliens that have visited the earth. He overlooks completely whether it possible and no matter how much you try to show him that it isn't, he can't see the truth that he has been misled. Really? So I have told on here before, of the time that my son and I had a conversation about God. He asked me a question in the afternoon which I couldn't answer. We forgot all about the conversation. My uncle, reading the bible in the meeting that evening, many hours later, stopped, pointed at my son and said good question, then repeated the question and gave the answer. My uncle did this as if he had just heard the question, but the question was asked hours before, in another house and we hadn't said anything to anyone about our discussion. We were stunned, my uncle stopped reading in the middle of the meeting to do this, everybody there we're saying to each other "but nobody asked that, why is he saying that" but my son did ask that, only many hours before, with only him and I there! So how did that happen? and that is only one experience, I have had others like this. Yes, that was the one that I remembered. There multiple ways that could have happened and did not need to be any manifestation of the existence of a god.
If I remember right I answered that with one of my own experiences where I also was tempted to believe that mine was also a manifestation of the existence of a god. However, I worked through the idea rationally and realized why it had happened and there didn't need to be any manifestation of the existence of a god.
If you just grab the first thought you have, especially if it appeals to you in some way, and don't give it any further thought you can be tempted to believe what you want to believe.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 20:30:44 GMT -5
Really? So I have told on here before, of the time that my son and I had a conversation about God. He asked me a question in the afternoon which I couldn't answer. We forgot all about the conversation. My uncle, reading the bible in the meeting that evening, many hours later, stopped, pointed at my son and said good question, then repeated the question and gave the answer. My uncle did this as if he had just heard the question, but the question was asked hours before, in another house and we hadn't said anything to anyone about our discussion. We were stunned, my uncle stopped reading in the middle of the meeting to do this, everybody there we're saying to each other "but nobody asked that, why is he saying that" but my son did ask that, only many hours before, with only him and I there! So how did that happen? and that is only one experience, I have had others like this. Yes, that was the one that I remembered. There multiple ways that could have happened and did not need to be any manifestation of the existence of a god.
If I remember right I answered that with one of my own experiences where I also was tempted to believe that mine was also a manifestation of the existence of a god. However, I worked through the idea rationally and realized why it had happened and there didn't need to be any manifestation of the existence of a god.
If you just grab the first thought you have, especially if it appeals to you in some way, and don't give it any further thought you can be tempted to believe what you want to believe.there is no reasonable or rational explanation for what happened to maryhig and her son. maybe you could say what happened and we can evaluate that...
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Post by maryhig on May 17, 2016 20:33:44 GMT -5
Really? So I have told on here before, of the time that my son and I had a conversation about God. He asked me a question in the afternoon which I couldn't answer. We forgot all about the conversation. My uncle, reading the bible in the meeting that evening, many hours later, stopped, pointed at my son and said good question, then repeated the question and gave the answer. My uncle did this as if he had just heard the question, but the question was asked hours before, in another house and we hadn't said anything to anyone about our discussion. We were stunned, my uncle stopped reading in the middle of the meeting to do this, everybody there we're saying to each other "but nobody asked that, why is he saying that" but my son did ask that, only many hours before, with only him and I there! So how did that happen? and that is only one experience, I have had others like this. Yes, that was the one that I remembered. There multiple ways that could have happened and did not need to be any manifestation of the existence of a god.
If I remember right I answered that with one of my own experiences where I also was tempted to believe that mine was also a manifestation of the existence of a god. However, I worked through the idea rationally and realized why it had happened and there didn't need to be any manifestation of the existence of a god.
If you just grab the first thought you have, especially if it appeals to you in some way, and don't give it any further thought you can be tempted to believe what you want to believe.Ok, so you explain to me how you think that could have happened? How my son got an answer to a question that he asked many hours before when only him and I were there and no one mentioning it again. And then a completely different person that evening who hadn't heard any of our discussion, not only repeating the exact question, but giving a brilliant answer. One I would never have thought of? How did that actually happen in a logical way?
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Post by dmmichgood on May 17, 2016 21:58:36 GMT -5
Yes, that was the one that I remembered. There multiple ways that could have happened and did not need to be any manifestation of the existence of a god.
If I remember right I answered that with one of my own experiences where I also was tempted to believe that mine was also a manifestation of the existence of a god. However, I worked through the idea rationally and realized why it had happened and there didn't need to be any manifestation of the existence of a god.
If you just grab the first thought you have, especially if it appeals to you in some way, and don't give it any further thought you can be tempted to believe what you want to believe. Ok, so you explain to me how you think that could have happened? How my son got an answer to a question that he asked many hours before when only him and I were there and no one mentioning it again. And then a completely different person that evening who hadn't heard any of our discussion, not only repeating the exact question, but giving a brilliant answer. One I would never have thought of? How did that actually happen in a logical way? Maryhig, I have no idea because I have not all the knowledge of what actually happened.
I am NOT going to try & tell you something when I wasn't there.
But I know there are many ways that it COULD have happened. After all , when you all are in such a meeting you are all thinking about the same kinds of things. Therefore, do you think that it simply could have had been that you & your son & uncle happened to be all thinking about the same thing at the same time?
BTW, did you ever ask your Uncle about why he happened to speak on the subject?
You believe it and you have a right to believe & it seems your faith defends on believing it so just let it go!
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 22:05:42 GMT -5
Ok, so you explain to me how you think that could have happened? How my son got an answer to a question that he asked many hours before when only him and I were there and no one mentioning it again. And then a completely different person that evening who hadn't heard any of our discussion, not only repeating the exact question, but giving a brilliant answer. One I would never have thought of? How did that actually happen in a logical way? After all , when you all are in such a meeting you are all thinking about the same kinds of things. Therefore, do you think that it simply could have had been that you & your son & uncle happened to be all thinking about the same thing at the same time?
not likely especially since he pointed at him and said "good question" without the son uttering a word ...
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Post by dmmichgood on May 17, 2016 22:22:17 GMT -5
Yes, that was the one that I remembered. There multiple ways that could have happened and did not need to be any manifestation of the existence of a god.
If I remember right I answered that with one of my own experiences where I also was tempted to believe that mine was also a manifestation of the existence of a god. However, I worked through the idea rationally and realized why it had happened and there didn't need to be any manifestation of the existence of a god.
If you just grab the first thought you have, especially if it appeals to you in some way, and don't give it any further thought you can be tempted to believe what you want to believe. there is no reasonable or rational explanation for what happened to maryhig and her son. maybe you could say what happened and we can evaluate that... Except, wally, - there are reasonable or rational explanations, many of them!
Why does it seem to either of you that it wouldn't be rational for all three of them to be thinking about the same thing at the same time and in a meeting where that is the kind of thing that you think about..? Geeze! Why make a mountain where only a mole hill exists!
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 17, 2016 23:50:46 GMT -5
Seems at lease there are no rewards for the nonbelievers. And no proof that there is a reward for the believers. Was there ever a time when your parentstold you that if you did a certain thing, then you would get something you needed or wanted. Then dididn't you have to rely on their word that they would reward you as promised. Even maybe having to go a length of time before you could expect this reward? Did you not have faith they'd follow up on their word? Well it works the same way for those who have faith in God. They will receive their reward even though you won't see them receive it. I didn't see your parents reward you and likely few people did. So it'd be the same thing for me to tell you over and over just because I haven't seen your reward that there is No proof in my mind your parents ever gave it to you.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 18, 2016 0:14:05 GMT -5
And no proof that there is a reward for the believers. Was there ever a time when your parentstold you that if you did a certain thing, then you would get something you needed or wanted. Then dididn't you have to rely on their word that they would reward you as promised. Even maybe having to go a length of time before you could expect this reward? Did you not have faith they'd follow up on their word? Well it works the same way for those who have faith in God. They will receive their reward even though you won't see them receive it. I didn't see your parents reward you and likely few people did. So it'd be the same thing for me to tell you over and over just because I haven't seen your reward that there is No proof in my mind your parents ever gave it to you. No doubt all that is true, sharingtheriches, but we were children.then. Now we are adults.
That was childhood and you are talking about when the reward something we could see touch smell hear, something concrete and real.
While the reward you speak of is not even something that you can see. Now we are adults and why do we need rewards for living a moral life anyway,- being kind to our fellow travelers on this journey called life?
And Why shouldn't that life be enough? Why should we want or even need to want an extension of an existence of after we die? Why do we even think that we should have a reward?
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Post by maryhig on May 18, 2016 2:15:33 GMT -5
Ok, so you explain to me how you think that could have happened? How my son got an answer to a question that he asked many hours before when only him and I were there and no one mentioning it again. And then a completely different person that evening who hadn't heard any of our discussion, not only repeating the exact question, but giving a brilliant answer. One I would never have thought of? How did that actually happen in a logical way? Maryhig, I have no idea because I have not all the knowledge of what actually happened.
I am NOT going to try & tell you something when I wasn't there.
But I know there are many ways that it COULD have happened. After all , when you all are in such a meeting you are all thinking about the same kinds of things. Therefore, do you think that it simply could have had been that you & your son & uncle happened to be all thinking about the same thing at the same time?
BTW, did you ever ask your Uncle about why he happened to speak on the subject?
You believe it and you have a right to believe & it seems your faith defends on believing it so just let it go!DMG my son asked me how is God everywhere. To which I couldn't answer. Hours later in the meeting, in the middle of reading the bible, my uncle stopped reading, and out of a full room looked up and pointed right at my son and said "good question how is God everywhere" he said the exact words that my son had asked hours earlier, no question was asked in the meeting, my son and I hadn't been discussing since much earlier on, and it wasn't mentioned in the meeting. It was a complete shock to me and my son. And he now knows that God is there because he knows that he heard him. You can't tell me how that happened because it's inexplicable. The only way it could have happened is if God heard us and answered us. One thing I don't do, is tell lies or make believe. I believe it's wrong to do so, and I fear God too much to lie about something like that, so I wouldn't make things like that up. Everything I've said is true, whether you believe me or not, that's up to you. But, at least I know I'm being honest and that is a true account of what happened, and I could never ever deny God. By the way, you're telling me to let it go, but you keep saying that there are reasonable and rational explanations. So, what are they? As you said, you weren't there. There are no rational explanations. The only explanation is that God heard us!
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