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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 11:43:09 GMT -5
I agree with you agreeing with fixit. Nathan has explained it very well. Straight from scripture. This doesn't go against anything I've said yet. I consider it absolute folly to disagree with Nathan. You would do well to listen to him more!
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gells
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Feb 9, 2016 12:25:53 GMT -5
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Post by gells on Feb 9, 2016 12:25:53 GMT -5
Nathan has explained it very well. Straight from scripture. This doesn't go against anything I've said yet. I consider it absolute folly to disagree with Nathan. You would do well to listen to him more! I'm not sure where you are going with that statement.
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gells
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Feb 9, 2016 12:26:17 GMT -5
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Post by gells on Feb 9, 2016 12:26:17 GMT -5
Nathan has explained it very well. Straight from scripture. This doesn't go against anything I've said yet. I consider it absolute folly to disagree with Nathan. You would do well to listen to him more! I'm not sure where you are going with that statement.
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Post by fixit on Feb 9, 2016 13:07:05 GMT -5
The Son called the Father His "God" The Father called the Son " Thou Lord/Kurios" and "Thy throne, Oh God" in Hebrews 1:8-12....
In the Old Testament... Ps. 45:6-7 and Isa. 61:1 But unto the Son he/God saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
My question is how can that be? Unless it's true for Both... The Father and the Son Both are God/Elohim=Plural. I don't want to get into an endless trinity debate, but God the Father is NOT calling Jesus God. According to scholars, Psalm 45 was a wedding song written for a king (probably Solomon). Psalm 45 (NIV Translation) For the director of music. To the tune of “Lilies.” Of the Sons of Korah. A maskil. b A wedding song. 1 My heart is stirred by a noble theme as I recite my verses for the king; my tongue is the pen of a skillful writer. 2 You are the most excellent of men and your lips have been anointed with grace, since God has blessed you forever. 3 Gird your sword on your side, you mighty one; clothe yourself with splendor and majesty. 4 In your majesty ride forth victoriously in the cause of truth, humility and justice; let your right hand achieve awesome deeds. 5 Let your sharp arrows pierce the hearts of the king’s enemies; let the nations fall beneath your feet. 6 Your throne, O God,[c] will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. 7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy. 8 All your robes are fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia; from palaces adorned with ivory the music of the strings makes you glad . 9 Daughters of kings are among your honored women; at your right hand is the royal bride in gold of Ophir. 10 Listen, daughter, and pay careful attention: Forget your people and your father’s house. 11 Let the king be enthralled by your beauty; honor him, for he is your lord. 12 The city of Tyre will come with a gift,[d] people of wealth will seek your favor. 13 All glorious is the princess within her chamber; her gown is interwoven with gold. 14 In embroidered garments she is led to the king; her virgin companions follow her— those brought to be with her. 15 Led in with joy and gladness, they enter the palace of the king. 16 Your sons will take the place of your fathers; you will make them princes throughout the land. 17 I will perpetuate your memory through all generations; therefore the nations will praise you for ever and ever. Footnotes: a. Psalm 45:1 In Hebrew texts 45:1-17 is numbered 45:2-18. b. Psalm 45:1 Title: Probably a literary or musical term c. Psalm 45:6 Here the king is addressed as God’s representative.d. Psalm 45:12 Or A Tyrian robe is among the gifts A better translation of verses 6-7 is The Message Psalm 45:6-7The Message (MSG) 6-7 “Your throne is God’s throne, ever and always;The scepter of your royal rule measures right living. You love the right and hate the wrong. And that is why God, your very own God, poured fragrant oil on your head, Marking you out as king from among your dear companions. www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ps+45%3A6-7&version=MSG
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Feb 9, 2016 13:33:29 GMT -5
Be careful Nathan, we can't read John 1 as it's written. hahaha.... It's so simple and it all right there..... How can people miss that? I didn't see and understand either, it went right over my head John 1:1-3, then ONE day I saw it clearly as day light!
John the apostle was Jesus first cousin, he had known Jesus since childhood, being with Jesus from the beginning of his early ministry, he saw Jesus resurrection. And the time when John had take up in paradise on the island of Patmos around 95 A.D. in spirit to witness Jesus Glorious form in heavenly/throne with God the Father, and where all the good angels, 24 elders, people from all nations through the ages bow down and worship Him and the Father in heaven.
In the gospel of John from the beginning chapter 1:1-3 he explained it CLEARLY who Jesus/Yashua was and is.... God and Man in ONE body, The Alpha and Omega God almighty.
You're doing REALLY good in explaining your understanding of the Godhead, gells... I enjoy reading your understanding who Jesus was and is.... God and Man.
Nathan, were you in the work when you did not understand the opening verses of John?
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gells
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Feb 9, 2016 15:42:27 GMT -5
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Post by gells on Feb 9, 2016 15:42:27 GMT -5
The Son called the Father His "God" The Father called the Son " Thou Lord/Kurios" and "Thy throne, Oh God" in Hebrews 1:8-12....
In the Old Testament... Ps. 45:6-7 and Isa. 61:1 But unto the Son he/God saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
My question is how can that be? Unless it's true for Both... The Father and the Son Both are God/Elohim=Plural. I don't want to get into an endless trinity debate, but God the Father is NOT calling Jesus God. According to scholars, Psalm 45 was a wedding song written for a king (probably Solomon). Psalm 45 (NIV Translation) For the director of music. To the tune of “Lilies.” Of the Sons of Korah. A maskil. b A wedding song. 1 My heart is stirred by a noble theme as I recite my verses for the king; my tongue is the pen of a skillful writer. 2 You are the most excellent of men and your lips have been anointed with grace, since God has blessed you forever. 3 Gird your sword on your side, you mighty one; clothe yourself with splendor and majesty. 4 In your majesty ride forth victoriously in the cause of truth, humility and justice; let your right hand achieve awesome deeds. 5 Let your sharp arrows pierce the hearts of the king’s enemies; let the nations fall beneath your feet. 6 Your throne, O God,[c] will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. 7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy. 8 All your robes are fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia; from palaces adorned with ivory the music of the strings makes you glad . 9 Daughters of kings are among your honored women; at your right hand is the royal bride in gold of Ophir. 10 Listen, daughter, and pay careful attention: Forget your people and your father’s house. 11 Let the king be enthralled by your beauty; honor him, for he is your lord. 12 The city of Tyre will come with a gift,[d] people of wealth will seek your favor. 13 All glorious is the princess within her chamber; her gown is interwoven with gold. 14 In embroidered garments she is led to the king; her virgin companions follow her— those brought to be with her. 15 Led in with joy and gladness, they enter the palace of the king. 16 Your sons will take the place of your fathers; you will make them princes throughout the land. 17 I will perpetuate your memory through all generations; therefore the nations will praise you for ever and ever. Footnotes: a. Psalm 45:1 In Hebrew texts 45:1-17 is numbered 45:2-18. b. Psalm 45:1 Title: Probably a literary or musical term c. Psalm 45:6 Here the king is addressed as God’s representative.d. Psalm 45:12 Or A Tyrian robe is among the gifts A better translation of verses 6-7 is The Message Psalm 45:6-7The Message (MSG) 6-7 “Your throne is God’s throne, ever and always;The scepter of your royal rule measures right living. You love the right and hate the wrong. And that is why God, your very own God, poured fragrant oil on your head, Marking you out as king from among your dear companions. www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ps+45%3A6-7&version=MSGNow read Hebrews 1, which is what Nathan is referencing.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 15:42:34 GMT -5
Jesus is NOT the word of God. He clearly tells us that himself. The word is always the Father's words. Jesus tells us (often) that the words he spoke were NOT his own but were the Father's words. Jesus himself DENIES being the actual word of God. Rather he speaks what the Father commands/gives him to speak. In John 1:1, YES the word IS God because it is the Father's word. Jesus did NOT pre-exist as the word of God. The Word of God, i.e. the Father's word BECAME Flesh through Jesus Christ who was God's messenger.
The word becoming flesh through the human being Jesus is affirmed in the OT in various places. It was the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 18:18: "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." God was speaking to Moses. This is exactly how God's word became flesh. Hebrews 1 along with many other places clearly states this as well: 1. "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by(through) whom also he made the worlds."
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gells
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Feb 9, 2016 15:50:18 GMT -5
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Post by gells on Feb 9, 2016 15:50:18 GMT -5
Jesus is NOT the word of God. He clearly tells us that himself. The word is always the Father's words. Jesus tells us (often) that the words he spoke were NOT his own but were the Father's words. Jesus himself DENIES being the actual word of God. Rather he speaks what the Father commands/gives him to speak. In John 1:1, YES the word IS God because it is the Father's word. Jesus did NOT pre-exist as the word of God. The Word of God, i.e. the Father's word BECAME Flesh through Jesus Christ who was God's messenger. The word becoming flesh through the human being Jesus is affirmed in the OT in various places. It was the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 18:18: "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." God was speaking to Moses. This is exactly how God's word became flesh. Hebrews 1 along with many other places clearly states this as well: 1. "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by(through) whom also he made the worlds." The words you quoted actually just reaffirmed my position.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 15:54:56 GMT -5
HEBREWS 1:
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, (This is God the Father)
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,(Jesus) whom he (God the Father) hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (other versions say "through" whom)
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he (God the Father) bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him (Jesus).
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Jesus has received his inheritance of the Holy Spirit, all authority in heaven and earth. He is ruling in his glorified human body over the whole universe on behalf of God (to whom he remains subservient to) and by virtue of his position is rightly called "Mighty God," but he is not the Almighty God who is Jesus' Father and God.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord,(God the Father) in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he (God the Father) at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Jesus has received the inheritance that God promised him. His true followers are "joint heirs" with him and will be similarly glorified, although Jesus will have the pre-eminence.
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Post by faune on Feb 9, 2016 16:10:59 GMT -5
Isaiah 9:6 is an old testament verse about the coming messiah, and refers to him as what? Check it out.... For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Gells ~ I have to admit, that's one prophecy regarding Jesus and also backing up the meaning of the Trinity concept. The same verse is also quoted in this article which explains the Trinity in simple terms easy to understand. www.clarifyingchristianity.com/trinity.shtml What is the Trinity
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gells
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Feb 9, 2016 16:18:00 GMT -5
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Post by gells on Feb 9, 2016 16:18:00 GMT -5
Okay, Ram.
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Post by fixit on Feb 9, 2016 16:24:36 GMT -5
Isaiah 9:6 is an old testament verse about the coming messiah, and refers to him as what? Check it out.... For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Gells ~ I have to admit, that's one prophecy regarding Jesus and also backing up the meaning of the Trinity concept. Are you saying that Jesus is the everlasting Father? Trinitarian doctrine states that Christians should “neither confound the Persons nor divide the Substance”. That's according to the Athasian creed which says of itself "except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved". Houston, we've got a problem!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 16:24:48 GMT -5
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Post by magpie on Feb 9, 2016 16:36:36 GMT -5
THANKS HOWITIS , MAGGIE
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gells
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Feb 9, 2016 16:59:08 GMT -5
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Post by gells on Feb 9, 2016 16:59:08 GMT -5
That can be read as the father of everlasting life. The only reason any of us can have everlasting life, is because he gave us that opportunity. If it weren't for him, we'd be without a hope. If you'd like me to post someone else's commentary on it, I can, but just as I dont click on Ram's links, (I learned my lesson following one to a Unitarian website) you won't likely go to any I post.
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Post by faune on Feb 9, 2016 17:10:52 GMT -5
Ram ~ I listened to a good portion of this long video and was moved to check out the author and his basic beliefs, which you will find lines up quite well with the Jehovah Witnesses and the 2x2's from the link shown below. Although he claims no alliance with any religious group, he surely sounds like a Jehovah Witness or one with rearing within that religious group, also considered a cult by many today. His reference to Jesus as being a "mere human being" who God exalted for his obedience and who became our elder brother and example, reminds me of a page out of any "workers' play book."
It appears to me that you still hold on to the teaching of the 2x2's along this line, although you disagree with a lot of their other teachings and controlling measures over their membership? This comes from this man's website, which also shares his statement of beliefs. carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/jesus-humbled-state-and-what-it-means Jesus Humbled State and What It Meanswww.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/TTD/topics/credo.html Author's Credo or Statement of Beliefs
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Post by fixit on Feb 9, 2016 17:17:44 GMT -5
That can be read as the father of everlasting life. The only reason any of us can have everlasting life, is because he gave us that opportunity. If it weren't for him, we'd be without a hope. If you'd like me to post someone else's commentary on it, I can, but just as I dont click on Ram's links, (I learned my lesson following one to a Unitarian website) you won't likely go to any I post. You wouldn't want to read "everlasting Father" as it is written!
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gells
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Feb 9, 2016 17:22:56 GMT -5
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Post by gells on Feb 9, 2016 17:22:56 GMT -5
Scripture doesn't refute itself. If it appears to, the reader is in error. So, when I read it, and I think that can't be right, because it says otherwise, I know I need to not rely on my own understanding.
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Post by withlove on Feb 9, 2016 17:39:59 GMT -5
Does anyone know of an objective book or something that explains both sides of the trinity debate? I'd like to learn more about it, but as a newbie to the topic, the back-and-forth here is exhausting so I never can bring myself to follow all the posts. Thanks in advance!
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gells
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Feb 9, 2016 17:43:49 GMT -5
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Post by gells on Feb 9, 2016 17:43:49 GMT -5
Scripture doesn't refute itself. If it appears to, the reader is in error. So, when I read it, and I think that can't be right, because it says otherwise, I know I need to not rely on my own understanding. That being said, I didn't begin with a notion that I've been conditioned to believe and look for ways around what scripture says to prove my notion. I look at what scripture says, and then base my interpretation off of what it already written. I was conditioned to believe one thing, but when I stopped reading it as I was always told things meant, and compared verses to other verses, and began using scripture to interpret scripture, the truth was revealed to me. God has changed my life through this, so I won't be going back to a prescribed way of reading. No power can pull me from Gods hand. No matter what satan tries to plant in my thoughts. Meeting never preached the gospel of Christ, but the gospel of the workers. Nothing will ever possess me to go back to a way that doesn't preach the gospel that is in the scripture. As scripture says, "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." So, that being said, I will not listen to another gospel, or any other doctrine that comes from those that do. Those that preach the true gospel are the preachers that I will get my teaching from. So that excludes workers, JW, LDS, and any other doctrine that teaches that my salvation is through the works I do, rather than through Jesus' death and resurrection.
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 9, 2016 17:51:20 GMT -5
Does anyone know of an objective book or something that explains both sides of the trinity debate? I'd like to learn more about it, but as a newbie to the topic, the back-and-forth here is exhausting so I never can bring myself to follow all the posts. Thanks in advance! I really don't have a resource for you. I think it would be difficult, because both sides say the others are heretics, so a non-biased view would be difficult to come by. What I would honestly do is just start a bible study of your own. Start in Matthew, and the go to John. Matthew is quite thorough, and points to many prophesies in the old testaments that are fulfilled in Jesus' life. Whenever Matthew points to a fulfilled prophesy, find the old testament verses that he references. This really helped me. Then go to John. He is a little bit more tricky to understand, but he deals a lot with the spiritual aspects of Jesus, rather just than the physical. Pray about it as you read, and God will reveal the truth to you. Try not to read into it what has always been pushed at you and try to just read what is written.
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 9, 2016 17:53:21 GMT -5
Please excuse my grammatical errors!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 18:34:38 GMT -5
Faune opined: Ram ~ I listened to a good portion of this long video and was moved to check out the author and his basic beliefs, which you will find lines up quite well with the Jehovah Witnesses and the 2x2's from the link shown below. Although he claims no alliance with any religious group, he surely sounds like a Jehovah Witness or one with rearing within that religious group, also considered a cult by many today. His reference to Jesus as being a "mere human being" who God exalted for his obedience and who became our elder brother and example, reminds me of a page out of any "workers' play book." Faune, you couldn't be further from the truth in stating this man's beliefs line up with the Jo Wits. They don't believe that Jesus was just a man. Also Kel was a "trinitarian" for a lot of years. He has seen through the deception. There is NO WAY he is a Zeph Wit or anything like it. The Zephs DO NOT believe in the trinity, but they do believe that Mike became Jesus, or something like that? Regarding cults. Every last one of them (denominations, sects etc) is a cult within their own right. I don't listen to cult arguments anymore. They are usually offered up as a deflection in order to try and make a claim that they are a cult, therefore we are not. They ALL have adverse cultic tendencies. Even the true church had them. Check out some of the 7 churches in Revelation. Jesus is, was and always will be, a human being. It was God's plan from the very beginning. Anyway Faune....we've been over all this stuff many times before. Only God can open eyes to see his truth. This can only be done by making yourself approved of God, be willing for his teaching by having an ear to hear, be honest in heart, ditch pride, be humble, study his word and believe what it says. If you really believe his word, then it will be spirit and life to you. Refrain as far as possible from men's teaching and devices. They will only hinder your walk with God. The trinity is a curse of the devil. One thing about the "so called cults" yeah even those like the Zeph Wits and 2x2s etc. They are very often closer to the truth in their beliefs than the mainstream churches. Sometimes the closer something is to the real thing, without being it, makes it all the more dangerous. Very true with religion.
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Post by fixit on Feb 9, 2016 19:20:33 GMT -5
Scripture doesn't refute itself. If it appears to, the reader is in error. So, when I read it, and I think that can't be right, because it says otherwise, I know I need to not rely on my own understanding. How Old Was Ahaziah When He Began to Reign? 2 Kings 8:26: Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign. 2 Chronicles 22:2: Fourty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign.
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gells
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Feb 9, 2016 19:28:32 GMT -5
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Post by gells on Feb 9, 2016 19:28:32 GMT -5
Scripture doesn't refute itself. If it appears to, the reader is in error. So, when I read it, and I think that can't be right, because it says otherwise, I know I need to not rely on my own understanding. How Old Was Ahaziah When He Began to Reign? 2 Kings 8:26: Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign. 2 Chronicles 22:2: Fourty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign. I don't have an answer for that. I would have to research. Looks like answers in Genesis has already heard that one. If you don't believe in the inerrancy of scripture, then I have nothing more to say. answersingenesis.org/bible-timeline/genealogy/two-ages-at-once/
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 19:33:36 GMT -5
Scripture doesn't refute itself. If it appears to, the reader is in error. So, when I read it, and I think that can't be right, because it says otherwise, I know I need to not rely on my own understanding. How Old Was Ahaziah When He Began to Reign? 2 Kings 8:26: Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign. 2 Chronicles 22:2: Fourty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign. answersingenesis.org/bible-timeline/genealogy/two-ages-at-once/
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Post by fixit on Feb 9, 2016 19:38:38 GMT -5
How Old Was Ahaziah When He Began to Reign? 2 Kings 8:26: Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign. 2 Chronicles 22:2: Fourty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign. I don't have an answer for that. I would have to research. Looks like answers in Genesis has already heard that one. If you don't believe in the inerrancy of scripture, then I have nothing more to say. answersingenesis.org/bible-timeline/genealogy/two-ages-at-once/Did you notice what Dr. Gill says? Indeed it is more to the honour of the sacred Scriptures to acknowledge here and there a mistake in the copiers, especially in the historical books, where there is sometimes a strange difference of names and numbers, than to give in to wild and distorted interpretations of them, in order to reconcile them, where there is no danger with respect to any article of faith or manners.
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Post by fixit on Feb 9, 2016 19:44:14 GMT -5
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