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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 19:42:41 GMT -5
The verses following John 1:14 I'm not sure how far you want me to read? I'm assuming you have verses 15 and 18 in mind? Jesus was born after John the Baptist, however Jesus existed in the mind and plan of God before the world began. All things were created by God through Jesus (God's plan) by the Father's power, the Holy Spirit. Everything that God did was for and through Jesus. God's plan was a reality. It came about in due course of time. Although Jesus came after John the Baptist, he was in the mind and plan of John the Baptist long before John the Baptist was born. In verse 30 John the Baptist states, "This is he of whom I said. After me cometh a MAN which is preferred before me; for he was before me." Whoever John is speaking to, he is speaking about a MAN only. Of course this man was NOT before John. This was the foretold Messiah which the Jews had been waiting hundreds of years for.In verse 29, John says, "Behold the lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the World." It is in this sense that Jesus was "before" John. Verse 18. "No MAN hath seen God at any time;the only begotten Son, which is in the Father's bosom, he hath declared him." Jesus, the MAN is today sitting at the right hand of God. He declared God while on the earth.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 19:48:07 GMT -5
How can something be 200%? Because it's God and He can do anything He wants. But really, in all seriousness...do you have to be able to fully explain and understand everything about God to believe in Him, to believe something to be true? I watched the video, I didn't understand his point. I don't really think many who argue against the trinity really understand what it really is that trinitarians believe. Maybe if you explain what the trinity means to you, that would be helpful. I brought up that verse not really addressing the trinity, but more addressing your disbelief in Jesus' eternal existence. Hi Beth, My understanding of the trinity is that there is one God, comprising three co-equal, co-eternal persons, i.e, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. There is nothing in the OT which prophesied that God himself, or part of God, or any other existing spiritual being would come down to earth to become the Messiah. All the prophecies were for God to raise up a human being Messiah in the due course of time. The pre-existence of Jesus has been misunderstood and read back into scripture, to a great extent by Western minds. Jesus always existed in the mind and plan of God, and came to be born in due course of time.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 20:00:32 GMT -5
And Romans 3:9-18 ( Not one does good. This must be why Jesus apparently rebuked a man for calling him good.) The answer to Romans 3 Paul explains in Romans 5. When Jesus rebuked the man for calling him good, he was directing the man to the source of goodness.
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 4, 2016 21:35:24 GMT -5
You truly have found plenty of ways to sidestep what scripture says. (I still don't see what is apparently so obvious in Romans 5). You are making stuff up, (the word was an idea?) even though God said in Genesis, Let us create man in Our own image.(you have explanation around this too, I'm sure, but don't bother, I won't be reading it, or responding either - God talking to himself, maybe?) And Hebrews 1 makes it very clear that Jesus is God. As God says about the son... read it for yourself. (Or maybe the excuse for that is somehow Jesus attained Godship like the LDS say. Or God didn't actually mean it because it's only a quote from Psalms 45, and the jews meant something else. Clearly it doesn't say what it does in Hebrews, because we can't read scripture as it is written, we have to assume something that isn't written. Because God wants to hide from those who honestly seek truth.) I shall be out of this conversation, because you are clearly fooled. God has brought me out of this heretical thinking, no questioning or twisting of scripture will fool me and bring me back. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior! And for that I am thankful! And if I show you other scripture that you haven't discovered yet, I'm sure that your response would be, oh, surely that's not what it means. (That sounds familiar.) Lets find how we can show that it proves otherwise, because it doesn't mean what it says.. (Let's look at greek to prove one point, but not look at the greek to prove the other!!) Have a good day. I pray that one day that God will open your eyes, and you will receive his truth!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2016 3:31:04 GMT -5
You truly have found plenty of ways to sidestep what scripture says. (I still don't see what is apparently so obvious in Romans 5). You are making stuff up, (the word was an idea?) even though God said in Genesis, Let us create man in Our own image.(you have explanation around this too, I'm sure, but don't bother, I won't be reading it, or responding either - God talking to himself, maybe?) And Hebrews 1 makes it very clear that Jesus is God. As God says about the son... read it for yourself. (Or maybe the excuse for that is somehow Jesus attained Godship like the LDS say. Or God didn't actually mean it because it's only a quote from Psalms 45, and the jews meant something else. Clearly it doesn't say what it does in Hebrews, because we can't read scripture as it is written, we have to assume something that isn't written. Because God wants to hide from those who honestly seek truth.) I shall be out of this conversation, because you are clearly fooled. God has brought me out of this heretical thinking, no questioning or twisting of scripture will fool me and bring me back. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior! And for that I am thankful! And if I show you other scripture that you haven't discovered yet, I'm sure that your response would be, oh, surely that's not what it means. (That sounds familiar.) Lets find how we can show that it proves otherwise, because it doesn't mean what it says.. (Let's look at greek to prove one point, but not look at the greek to prove the other!!) Have a good day. I pray that one day that God will open your eyes, and you will receive his truth! Exit stage left me lad. I pray that one day God will remove the scales from your eyes. If you cannot see what I was referring to in Romans 5, you just might have a perception problem? Sometimes people don't see things simply because they don't want to see them. Comfort zone and all that? Implications? Pride? Try reading scripture without "reading into it!" The former teaches scripture abidance, the latter teaches you scripture twisting. I am pleased to say that there are some who see the light! Thanks anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 22:43:05 GMT -5
You truly have found plenty of ways to sidestep what scripture says. (I still don't see what is apparently so obvious in Romans 5). You are making stuff up, (the word was an idea?) even though God said in Genesis, Let us create man in Our own image.(you have explanation around this too, I'm sure, but don't bother, I won't be reading it, or responding either - God talking to himself, maybe?) And Hebrews 1 makes it very clear that Jesus is God. As God says about the son... read it for yourself. (Or maybe the excuse for that is somehow Jesus attained Godship like the LDS say. Or God didn't actually mean it because it's only a quote from Psalms 45, and the jews meant something else. Clearly it doesn't say what it does in Hebrews, because we can't read scripture as it is written, we have to assume something that isn't written. Because God wants to hide from those who honestly seek truth.) I shall be out of this conversation, because you are clearly fooled. God has brought me out of this heretical thinking, no questioning or twisting of scripture will fool me and bring me back. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior! And for that I am thankful! And if I show you other scripture that you haven't discovered yet, I'm sure that your response would be, oh, surely that's not what it means. (That sounds familiar.) Lets find how we can show that it proves otherwise, because it doesn't mean what it says.. (Let's look at greek to prove one point, but not look at the greek to prove the other!!) Have a good day. I pray that one day that God will open your eyes, and you will receive his truth! I pray that one day God will remove the scales from your eyes. Sometimes people don't see things simply because they don't want to see them. Comfort zone and all that? Implications? Pride? Try reading scripture without "reading into it!" The former teaches scripture abidance, the latter teaches you scripture twisting. I am pleased to say that there are some who see the light! One could say these exact same words to you... Here's something I thought of today and wanted to run it past the ppl here who do not believe that Jesus was anything more than a mere man...100% human just as any of the rest of us. Philippians 2...it speaks of Jesus emptying Himself and humbling Himself. Of/from what?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 22:52:05 GMT -5
Because it's God and He can do anything He wants. But really, in all seriousness...do you have to be able to fully explain and understand everything about God to believe in Him, to believe something to be true? I watched the video, I didn't understand his point. I don't really think many who argue against the trinity really understand what it really is that trinitarians believe. Maybe if you explain what the trinity means to you, that would be helpful. I brought up that verse not really addressing the trinity, but more addressing your disbelief in Jesus' eternal existence. Hi Beth, My understanding of the trinity is that there is one God, comprising three co-equal, co-eternal persons, i.e, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. There is nothing in the OT which prophesied that God himself, or part of God, or any other existing spiritual being would come down to earth to become the Messiah. All the prophecies were for God to raise up a human being Messiah in the due course of time. The pre-existence of Jesus has been misunderstood and read back into scripture, to a great extent by Western minds. Jesus always existed in the mind and plan of God, and came to be born in due course of time. So you believe in one God...just not that the Son and the Holy Spirit are co-equal and co-eternal with the Father? Do you believe the Son to be worthy of worship? Do you now, personally, in the present day, worship the Son? Will you personally worship the Son in eternity?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2016 3:44:13 GMT -5
The word Jesus in Hebrew is Yashua= Salvation... The word Yashua is God NOT man. God/Christ who became a man. Salvation comes through believing in Jesus Christ the SON of God. By no other name can man be saved. The Bible is quite clear on this Nathan.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2016 4:05:45 GMT -5
Hi Beth, My understanding of the trinity is that there is one God, comprising three co-equal, co-eternal persons, i.e, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. There is nothing in the OT which prophesied that God himself, or part of God, or any other existing spiritual being would come down to earth to become the Messiah. All the prophecies were for God to raise up a human being Messiah in the due course of time. The pre-existence of Jesus has been misunderstood and read back into scripture, to a great extent by Western minds. Jesus always existed in the mind and plan of God, and came to be born in due course of time. So you believe in one God...just not that the Son and the Holy Spirit are co-equal and co-eternal with the Father? Do you believe the Son to be worthy of worship? Do you now, personally, in the present day, worship the Son? Will you personally worship the Son in eternity? I believe God to be the Father, just as the Bible and Jesus clearly states. The Holy Spirit is the Father's spirit which 'proceeds' from him, just as Jesus tells us. Jesus Christ is the human being Son of God. This human being Son of God is ruling over the universe today in his glorified body. He has received his inheritance as was promised him, all power in heaven and earth. He sits at the right had of God ruling "on behalf" of his God and his Father. By virtue of his position he is rightly called Mighty God, but he is NOT the Almighty God, who is both his God and Father and our God and Father. After Jesus defeats all his enemies, the last of which is death, he with return that authority to his God and Father, the Almighty God. You too will share in this. Jesus will be worshiped in heaven because he is worthy. He will have pre-eminence over us. He is ruling on behalf of his Father. I have already presented an explanation about how Jesus was worshiped on this earth. We worship God through following the life of Jesus Christ. I pray directly to God the Father. I trust in Jesus to intercede for me. God's plan was that "man" would have uncorrupted dominion over his creation. That is still God's plan. It will be achieved through the human being Jesus.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2016 4:26:59 GMT -5
I pray that one day God will remove the scales from your eyes. Sometimes people don't see things simply because they don't want to see them. Comfort zone and all that? Implications? Pride? Try reading scripture without "reading into it!" The former teaches scripture abidance, the latter teaches you scripture twisting. I am pleased to say that there are some who see the light! One could say these exact same words to you... Here's something I thought of today and wanted to run it past the ppl here who do not believe that Jesus was anything more than a mere man...100% human just as any of the rest of us. Philippians 2...it speaks of Jesus emptying Himself and humbling Himself. Of/from what? Jesus himself claimed to be just a man. He could do nothing of himself. John 5. I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.Nicodemus, representing the Sanhedrin recognised Jesus as an ordinary man. Jesus did not "correct" him. In fact he agreed with him 100% with his reply, by stating that a "man" had to be born again. Jesus symbolised this at his own baptism. John 3.2 (Nicodemus) The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
As for Jesus "emptying" himself I normally go by the KJV, which implies the same thing, i.e. he made himself of no reputation. Remember in these verses Paul is beseeching the Phillipians to follow or imitate Christ and to have the same mind. The advice is for us to be like Christ. We too are to empty ourselves, or make ourselves on no reputation in order to follow him. We empty ourselves of "self" and all the things that self desires in order to be obedient to God. Like Jesus we are to become "servants" of God and must take on the nature of a servant. 4. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others, 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;It's all about the "man" Jesus. Stick to what the Bible actually says.
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Post by xna on Feb 8, 2016 8:40:53 GMT -5
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Post by maryhig on Feb 8, 2016 9:13:07 GMT -5
Salvation comes through believing in Jesus Christ the SON of God. By no other name can man be saved. The Bible is quite clear on this Nathan. Like I have written many times in the past... This is the order.... God's son/Christ exists in heaven with the Father first, then secondly, he begotten/incarnated the Son of man to die as the Lamb of God to SAVE us. I don't deny Jesus is human or the son of God. However, He was God's son before he became our Redeemer, this is what some of us are trying to tell you, Ram. Yashua/Jesus is both, God who incarnated himself as a man.Christ the "Lord " God Yahweh of the Old Testament incarnated in the Person Jesus/Yahshua God and ManYahweh is The Creator: Isa.40:28 (Yahweh) Jesus is The Creator: John 1:3 (Jesus)Yahweh is the First and Last: Isa. 41:4 44:6 (Yahweh) Jesus is the First and Last: Rev. 1:17 2:8 & 22:13 (Jesus)Yahweh is The Lord of Lords: Deut. 10:17 (Yahweh) Jesus is the Lord of Lords: 1 Tim. 6:15 (Jesus)Yahweh is the Savior: Isa 45:21 43:11 (Yahweh) Jesus is the Saviour. John 4:42 (Jesus)Yahweh is The Light: Psa. 27:1, Isa. 60: 19-20 (Yahweh) Jesus is The Light. John 1:1-9 & 8:12 (Jesus)Yahweh is The Shepherd: Ps. 23:1 (Yahweh) Jesus is The Shepherd: John 10:11 (Jesus)Yahweh is The Glory of God: Isa. 42:8 48:11 (Yahweh) Jesus is The Glory of God: John 17:1, 5 (Jesus)Yahweh is The Redeemer: Isa. 41:14, Jer. 50:34, (Yahweh) Jesus is The Redeemer: Rev. 5:9 (Jesus)Yahweh is The Rock: Ps. 18:2 (Yahweh) Jesus is The Rock: 1 Cor. 10:4 (Jesus)Yahweh is the Creator of angels: Psa. 148:5 (Yahweh) Jesus is the Creator of Angels: Col. 1:16 (Jesus)Yahweh is The I AM: Ex. 3:14 (Yahweh) Jesus is The I AM: John 8:58 18:5,6 (Jesus)Yahweh is The Bridegroom: Isa. 62:5 Hosea 2:16 (Yahweh) Jesus is The Bridegroom: Rev. 21: 2, Matt. 25:11 (Jesus)Yahweh is The Judge: Joel 3:12 (Yahweh) Jesus is The Judge: John 5:27 Matt. 25:31-46 (Jesus)Yahweh is The Forgiver of sins: Jer. 31:34 (Yahweh) Jesus is The Forgiver of sins: Mark 2:7, 10 (Jesus)Yahweh is The Holy One: Isa. 43:3 (Yahweh) Jesus is The Holy One: Acts 3:14 (Jesus)Both Raised the dead: 1 Sam2:6 (Yahweh) John 5:21 (Jesus) Both were Worshipped by angels: Psa. 148:2 (Yahweh) Heb. 1:6 (Jesus)Both are confessed as LORD - Every knee is going to bow and every tongue confess Isa. 45:21-23 (Yahweh); Phil2:9-11 (Jesus) ~~ Hebrews 1:8. About the Son he (God the Father) says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever." The author of Hebrews' description of Jesus as the exact representation of the divine Father has parallels in a passage in Colossians. ~~ Colossians 2:9-10. "in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" John's gospel quotes Jesus at length regarding his relationship with his heavenly Father. It also contains two famous attributions of divinity to Jesus.~~ John 1:1. "the Word was God" [in context, the Word is Jesus, see Christ the Logos] ~~ John 20:28. "Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!'" The most direct references to Jesus as God are found in various letters.~~ Romans 9:5. "Christ, who is God over all" ~~ Titus 2:13. "...our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" ~~ II Peter 1:1. "our God and Savior Jesus Christ" God the Son is co-eternal with God the Father (and the Holy Spirit), both before Creation and after the End (see Eschatology). "Son of God" draws attention to his humanity, whereas "God the Son" refers more generally to his divinity, including his pre-incarnate existence. So, in Christian theology, Jesus was always God the Son,[1] though not revealed as such until he also became the Son of God through incarnation. Jesus Christ is described as creator, as Savior, and as the one through whom God meets man. God's personal name Yahweh was always spoken as Adonai which means "Lord." The Greek equivalent to Adonai is the word Kurios, and this is used for Yahweh throughout the Greek version of the Old Testament. Hence, the Greek-speaking Jews and early Christians, the word Kurios, referred directly to Yahweh. Now it is precisely this word Kurios ("Lord"), which is used to refer to Jesus in such key passages as the following: At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on the earth and under the earth, and every tounge confess that Jesus is the Lord/Yahweh, to the glory of the God the Father. (Phil 2:10-11; Isa. 45:23) There is no room for ambiguity here: in these and in many other passages, Jesus Christ is expressly identified with Yahweh (I Tim. 6:15; Revelation 17:14; 19:16). Now we can see begin to see the full meaning of Jesus' momentous words in John 8:58 "Truly, truly, I say to you before Abraham was I AM." And his meaning was not lost on his hearers, for we read that they took up stones to throw at him. As John makes explicit (John 5:18). Jesus was making himself equal with God, which was to the Jews BLASPHEMY! (Exodus 3:14)This is far from being an isolated text. At his trial, in answer to the High Priest's inquiry as to who he was, Jesus said, "I AM." And we read that the High Priest tore his mantle, and said, "Why do we still need witnesses? you have heard his BLASPHEMY!" (Mark 14:62-64) Nathan, all those things Jesus was able to do because he had the strength of the spirit fully, and he was in the express image of God, he never sinned so God blessed him. Do you believe that Jesus was in the flesh and had a free will and was able to sin? If so, do you believe that if he had of sinned, he would still be able to do those miracles of God? No he wouldn't. But he did Gods will not his own. I can quote many scriptures showing that Jesus is the son of God, and nowhere does it say that Jesus is God the son in the bible. Also mark 14 62-64 if you look at the whole verse, before Jesus said I am. He was asked the question "are you Christ, the son of God" to which he replied "I am" he wasn't referring to himself as being God but as being the son of God.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2016 11:12:06 GMT -5
I have answered Nathan's long list of references umpteen times in the past. At no time did Commander Thor EVER refer to Jesus as being God himself. Thor NEVER recognised the trinity. I believe the good Commander over Nathan any day. Sorry pal.
If anyone wants my understanding of any of the references that Nathan has quoted, I am happy to discuss these things by pm.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2016 12:58:16 GMT -5
One could say these exact same words to you... Here's something I thought of today and wanted to run it past the ppl here who do not believe that Jesus was anything more than a mere man...100% human just as any of the rest of us. Philippians 2...it speaks of Jesus emptying Himself and humbling Himself. Of/from what? Jesus himself claimed to be just a man. He could do nothing of himself. John 5. I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.Nicodemus, representing the Sanhedrin recognised Jesus as an ordinary man. Jesus did not "correct" him. In fact he agreed with him 100% with his reply, by stating that a "man" had to be born again. Jesus symbolised this at his own baptism. John 3.2 (Nicodemus) The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
As for Jesus "emptying" himself I normally go by the KJV, which implies the same thing, i.e. he made himself of no reputation. Remember in these verses Paul is beseeching the Phillipians to follow or imitate Christ and to have the same mind. The advice is for us to be like Christ. We too are to empty ourselves, or make ourselves on no reputation in order to follow him. We empty ourselves of "self" and all the things that self desires in order to be obedient to God. Like Jesus we are to become "servants" of God and must take on the nature of a servant. 4. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others, 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;It's all about the "man" Jesus. Stick to what the Bible actually says. Believing in the trinity doesn't mean believing Jesus wasn't a man...I believe He was a man... But my question didn't get answered: when it says Jesus emptied Himself, of what? He humbled Himself...from what? This IS what the Bible says He did, so...that's why I'm asking what this means to you...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2016 14:50:35 GMT -5
Believing in the trinity doesn't mean believing Jesus wasn't a man...I believe He was a man... But my question didn't get answered: when it says Jesus emptied Himself, of what? He humbled Himself...from what? This IS what the Bible says He did, so...that's why I'm asking what this means to you... Your question WAS answered. You just have to read and think about the text quoted. Jesus emptied himself of "self!" Other translations for "emptying himself" say he made himself of no reputation. He made himself of no reputation. He became 100% obedient to God unto death. He humbled himself and took up the role of a servant. This is how he emptied himself and is exactly the message that Paul was beseeching the Phillipians to follow. How can you possibly believe that Jesus was a man, yet believe also that he was in fact God. Please think about it. How is that possible? A man is a man. God is God. Let's get honest here and not dance around with "mystery." We are not to depart from the simplicity that is in Christ! Either we claim Jesus is a man or his is a God-man? If you want to follow Jesus then you too must empty yourself of self, or make yourself of no reputation and become obedient to God. The whole thing is simple if people would just get willing for what God wants them to be and do. The whole trinity garbage that the devil has put over Christendom is to get the message out that we cannot be like Jesus. It is to put distance between us and God. It stops us from knowing the only true God (the Father) and Jesus Christ whom he sent (human being Son of God). This is eternal life. John 17.3 couldn't be clearer. Also in Matthew's gospel Jesus tells us clearly that the majority of Christendom will by turned away by him as workers of iniquity because he knew them not!
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gells
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Hi sorry
Feb 8, 2016 14:58:42 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by gells on Feb 8, 2016 14:58:42 GMT -5
He's man because he was born of Mary, a human. What of his father?
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Post by maryhig on Feb 8, 2016 15:27:05 GMT -5
Believing in the trinity doesn't mean believing Jesus wasn't a man...I believe He was a man... But my question didn't get answered: when it says Jesus emptied Himself, of what? He humbled Himself...from what? This IS what the Bible says He did, so...that's why I'm asking what this means to you... Your question WAS answered. You just have to read and think about the text quoted. Jesus emptied himself of "self!" Other translations for "emptying himself" say he made himself of no reputation. He made himself of no reputation. He became 100% obedient to God unto death. He humbled himself and took up the role of a servant. This is how he emptied himself and is exactly the message that Paul was beseeching the Phillipians to follow. How can you possibly believe that Jesus was a man, yet believe also that he was in fact God. Please think about it. How is that possible? A man is a man. God is God. Let's get honest here and not dance around with "mystery." We are not to depart from the simplicity that is in Christ! If you want to follow Jesus then you too must empty yourself of self, or make yourself of no reputation and become obedient to God. The whole thing is simple if people would just get willing for what God wants them to be and do. The whole trinity garbage that the devil has put over Christendom is to get the message out that we cannot be like Jesus. It is to put distance between us and God. It stops us from knowing the only true God (the Father) and Jesus Christ whom he sent (human being Son of God). This is eternal life. John 17.3 couldn't be clearer. Also in Matthew's gospel Jesus tells us clearly that the majority of Christendom will by turned away by him as workers of iniquity because he knew them not! Yes i agree, and we must also become humble, and this starts by denying ourselves and becoming a servant, not a master and following Jesus and obeying God! And the holy spirit will strengthen us. James 4 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. 1 Peter 5 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. And in Jesus' own words Matthew 18 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2016 15:31:54 GMT -5
Good supporting points Mary. Thank you.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2016 15:32:28 GMT -5
Believing in the trinity doesn't mean believing Jesus wasn't a man...I believe He was a man... But my question didn't get answered: when it says Jesus emptied Himself, of what? He humbled Himself...from what? This IS what the Bible says He did, so...that's why I'm asking what this means to you... Your question WAS answered. You just have to read and think about the text quoted. Jesus emptied himself of "self!" Other translations for "emptying himself" say he made himself of no reputation. He made himself of no reputation. He became 100% obedient to God unto death. He humbled himself and took up the role of a servant. This is how he emptied himself and is exactly the message that Paul was beseeching the Phillipians to follow. How can you possibly believe that Jesus was a man, yet believe also that he was in fact God. Please think about it. How is that possible? A man is a man. God is God. Let's get honest here and not dance around with "mystery." We are not to depart from the simplicity that is in Christ! If you want to follow Jesus then you too must empty yourself of self, or make yourself of no reputation and become obedient to God. The whole thing is simple if people would just get willing for what God wants them to be and do. The whole trinity garbage that the devil has put over Christendom is to get the message out that we cannot be like Jesus. It is to put distance between us and God. It stops us from knowing the only true God (the Father) and Jesus Christ whom he sent (human being Son of God). This is eternal life. John 17.3 couldn't be clearer. Also in Matthew's gospel Jesus tells us clearly that the majority of Christendom will by turned away by him as workers of iniquity because he knew them not! So He was emptied of Himself...implying He had a sinful nature He needed to be emptied of? He humbled Himself from what the verses say He humbled Himself from...being in the form of, and equal with, God. "Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." He was born of both God and man...His Father was God, His mother was Mary. He pre-existed His life on earth, as Philippians tells us, equal to and in the form of God...but humbled Himself to be born in the likeness of man. While on the earth, He was a man who was tempted, breathed, ate, drank, etc...all like we do today. And yet He did things that only God could do...healed, forgave sins, received worship, etc... I don't really need to spend too much time asking myself how that is possible because all things are possible with God. While I think Christ's message was simple (simple does not mean easy), I do not think He Himself was simple. God is not simple...He is not easily understood or explained...His ways are high above mine and thank goodness. I have no desire to serve a God who is so much like myself that I can explain Him or understand Him completely and perfectly. Of course we can't be like Jesus...to convince yourself that you can is a great deception. You can follow Him, you can serve Him, you can obey Him, you can worship Him, you can look up to His example...but you will fail. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do those things or that they aren't scriptural...but it definitely shows there is a separation, a distinction, between who we are and who Jesus was/is. The work of the Holy Spirit is to make us more like Him while on this earth...we receive Christ as our Savior, we have the indwelling Holy Spirit, we are convicted of our sin and repent, we are prompted to read God's Word and obey it, we are prompted to pray, we are moved by a world in need and take action to live out our faith, etc...even then the culmination of our Christ-like-ness will not be fully realized until eternity. And even then, we will not be like Christ in the sense that WE will be the ones falling at HIS feet in worship. It seems you have put yourself and Jesus on equal footing??? He was just a man and you can be just like Him. While I believe He is very much above me, worthy of my worship. He was a man on this earth who faced temptation, who faced grief, who experienced loss, pain, rejection, etc...so He is not unable to identify with the things that I face. And yet He faced those things without sin. If He was able to do that, to be perfect, simply because He humbled Himself and died to self through the Holy Spirit, why is that an unattainable feat for humans today? While I may not be able to explain it fully, there is so much in scripture that makes it clear He was most definitely not just a man like any other man on the earth...then or now. And our sin does a fine enough job of separating us from God...the trinity, while it surely can't be the perfect explanation of God (because I don't believe there is one since all explanations are devised by flawed men), does a better job of explaining what I read in scripture than anything else I have come across.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2016 15:36:16 GMT -5
He's man because he was born of Mary, a human. What of his father? The same Father that you have. God. Jesus made it clear that his father is our father and his God is our God. Jesus was "conceived" of the Holy Spirit. The Holy spirit is not his Father. It is God. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. God can create human life from anything. He made Adam from the dust of the earth. He made Eve from a rib bone. He made Jesus in Mary's womb.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2016 15:39:25 GMT -5
Carry on believing as you do Beth. There's only one who will change you. He did that with me over a period of time with much prayerfulness and study. I had to be willing for what he wanted to teach me.
Every single verse that has been used by trinitarians/theologians to show that Jesus is God has been taken out of context or things are read into them that aren't there. Don't take my word for it, but please seek these things out for yourself.
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Post by fixit on Feb 8, 2016 15:40:10 GMT -5
Believing in the trinity doesn't mean believing Jesus wasn't a man...I believe He was a man... But my question didn't get answered: when it says Jesus emptied Himself, of what? He humbled Himself...from what? This IS what the Bible says He did, so...that's why I'm asking what this means to you... Jesus emptied himself of the human attributes that are incompatible with the kingdom of Heaven. Here's an example of such attributes:
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Post by maryhig on Feb 8, 2016 15:45:00 GMT -5
He's man because he was born of Mary, a human. What of his father? His father is God, That makes him the son of God, because he was born of the spirit. Luke 1 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail,thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God Even the angel called him the son of God. Not God the son!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2016 16:00:01 GMT -5
Believing in the trinity doesn't mean believing Jesus wasn't a man...I believe He was a man... But my question didn't get answered: when it says Jesus emptied Himself, of what? He humbled Himself...from what? This IS what the Bible says He did, so...that's why I'm asking what this means to you... Jesus emptied himself of the human attributes that are incompatible with the kingdom of Heaven. Here's an example of such attributes: That's not what the scripture says...scripture says He was in very nature, God...or in the form of God. That was how He existed before He came to earth. But scripture also tells us He humbled Himself because He did not think that His equality with God was something to hold on to. So He took on the nature or form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of a man. When scripture says He could do nothing apart from the Father, this is because He humbled Himself. In obedience to the Father, out of love for us, He came to earth in the likeness of a man (being "like" a man, or "resembling" a man). People worshiped Him, but He said He did not accept glory...He did everything He did to glorify the Father. His God and your God and my God. Because He humbled Himself. From being in nature, God...and from equality with God. Now He is once again exalted, and some day EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess that He is Lord...whether they did in this life or not. And this is ALL to the glory of God the Father. We need to have this same humility...not seeking to gain a name or reputation for ourselves, but rather to point others to Christ for the glory of the Father. Philippians 2: "4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 8, 2016 16:02:14 GMT -5
So he only inherited humanity from his mother, and no divinity from his father. Hmmm. Interesting. When I talk about my biological son, it means that he inherited my DNA, but I guess it's different when your father isn't human.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2016 16:27:25 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2016 16:31:22 GMT -5
So he only inherited humanity from his mother, and no divinity from his father. Hmmm. Interesting. When I talk about my biological son, it means that he inherited my DNA, but I guess it's different when your father isn't human. Be absolutely honest here. Does the Bible say that or is that someone's idea? Jesus identified the Father as his father, yet the Bible says Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost. So which one was his father from a trin standpoint?
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Post by magpie on Feb 8, 2016 16:38:38 GMT -5
Could someone kindly help this old guy (me) by putting a great article on Father, Son and Holy Spirit oneness. THANKS,Maggie.' Site heading == "How is God omnipotent,omnipresent and omniscient?" Well studied and understandable.
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