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Post by SharonArnold on Oct 7, 2015 17:44:39 GMT -5
I have been in a room with a dying person, and the visiting workers, would and probably could, only talk about church logistics and resources. Nothing of comfort to the bereaved, or a prayer for the dying person drifting in and out of consciousness. I even asked if they would like to pray over him and with us, and they declined, being distinctly uncomfortable with the concept. The year is 1988. My mother has just been through two excruciating courses of chemo to combat her leukemia (ALL). The previous afternoon, the doctor informed her that the second course of treatment had been unsuccessful, and that there would be no further attempts. Family members showed up that evening, and she said good-bye to them as best she could. When we asked how long the dying process would take, the doctor said “I don’t know, but she is a fighter, so it may be as long as a week”. My Aunt (my mom’s sister) and I stayed with her through the night. In the morning, my Aunt left to go home and shower and to catch up with things at her home. I was standing, alone, at the window at her hospital room, looking out, wondering “How am I going to get through this?”, and her (male) nurse came into the room and came and put his arms around me. He said “You know that it will be sometime today, don’t you?” I instantly knew “I can do this” and I stood tall. I phoned my Aunt, and I think she probably phoned the 4 workers that were in Winnipeg at that time. My Aunt was back at 9:00 am. The two sister workers showed up around 10:00 am, the two brothers, shortly thereafter. One of the sister workers was a trained nurse, and she immediately did everything she knew to make my mom more comfortable. (A leukemic’s death is not nice.) The other sister worker sat and hummed “Is there anyone can help us?” mostly in a happy little tuneful way. (At one point my Aunt and I fled down the hall to the hospital kitchen where we doubled over in laughter – and reflected on how this would have totally made my mom laugh.) The two brother workers were stoic, but for the most part, present, so present. Acknowledging their love and their helplessness, and how much they cared. Part way through the afternoon, I had a paradigm shift over the “Is there anyone can help us?" worker. It is now 27 years later, and I can barely articulate what that shift was in me – but it had to do with completely accepting her, just as she was, and feeling gratitude for her showing up with courage in what was a very difficult situation. (A huge growing up moment for me.) Sometime later, probably around 4:00 pm, I started feeling this huge sense of warmth and okayness. (The only thing I could equate it to was the many occasions when my mom would come to visit, and we would get up in the morning, still in our pj’s, and sit around talking. Then we would look at the clock and see that it was almost noon and we needed to get dressed and go do something productive – like shopping.) It was like being enveloped in a big hug. I can remember thinking “How can I be feeling this way, so warm, so okay, when my mom is dying”? An hour or two later, I felt like my mom said to me “Okay, up and at it”. The voice was almost audible, though of course it wasn’t. Minutes later she was gone. Her body continued to breathe for another 30 minutes or so – but “she” was gone. When her body stopped breathing, in the silence, my Aunt said “And gentle hands will lift me from life’s waters”. This was a hymn that we sang at her funeral. And through it all – these 4 workers were not only there, but they were present. So present. After, as we gathered her belongings into garbage bags, her body in the background, I said to the worker who officiated at her funeral “I haven’t just lost my mother, but my best friend.” He visibly broke down. I absolutely cannot trash any of these workers, they showed up with all their resources and helplessness and love in their hearts. You could never ask for more.
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Post by joanna on Oct 7, 2015 18:07:56 GMT -5
SharonArnold yours is a beautiful story of caring, compassionate people giving support in your time of intense need. It is true that an entire group must not be labelled negatively. My close relative was a worker and she was a considerate and lovely person.
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Post by Gene on Oct 7, 2015 18:09:13 GMT -5
you can comfort the grievers and have a gospel meeting all at the same time...I want my funeral to be a gospel meeting! You'd better make sure your corpse doesn't sit up and tell the congregation you were just turned away at the pearly gates. Someone might laugh. Ha! Rational, I think that's EXACTLY what your animatronic get-up should do!
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Post by Gene on Oct 7, 2015 18:16:20 GMT -5
. Why would a prayer of thanksgiving seem inappropriate? I guess from my limited view thanking god for the death of a person seems a bit odd. Thanking god that it was the person in the casket and not me seems selfish. I guess you could thank god that the person died quickly (assuming that was the case) but that possibility is not beyond the reach of mere mortals. You could, I guess, thank god that the person didn't die sooner but that would be a valid prayer anytime any where. As you can see, prayer is not my forte. Here is, however, something written by Aaron Freeman as to why you might want a physicist to speak at a funeral: You want a physicist to speak at your funeral. You want the physicist to talk to your grieving family about the conservation of energy, so they will understand that your energy has not died. You want the physicist to remind your sobbing mother about the first law of thermodynamics; that no energy gets created in the universe, and none is destroyed. You want your mother to know that all your energy, every vibration, every Btu of heat, every wave of every particle that was her beloved child remains with her in this world. You want the physicist to tell your weeping father that amid energies of the cosmos, you gave as good as you got.
And at one point you'd hope that the physicist would step down from the pulpit and walk to your brokenhearted spouse there in the pew and tell him/her that all the photons that ever bounced off your face, all the particles whose paths were interrupted by your smile, by the touch of your hair, hundreds of trillions of particles, have raced off like children, their ways forever changed by you. And as your widow rocks in the arms of a loving family, may the physicist let him/her know that all the photons that bounced from you were gathered in the particle detectors that are his/her eyes, that those photons created within her constellations of electromagnetically charged neurons whose energy will go on forever.
And the physicist will remind the congregation of how much of all our energy is given off as heat. There may be a few fanning themselves with their programs as he says it. And he will tell them that the warmth that flowed through you in life is still here, still part of all that we are, even as we who mourn continue the heat of our own lives.
And you'll want the physicist to explain to those who loved you that they need not have faith; indeed, they should not have faith. Let them know that they can measure, that scientists have measured precisely the conservation of energy and found it accurate, verifiable and consistent across space and time. You can hope your family will examine the evidence and satisfy themselves that the science is sound and that they'll be comforted to know your energy's still around. According to the law of the conservation of energy, not a bit of you is gone; you're just less orderly. Amen. Tough to turn that into a gospel meeting! I absolutely love that. Makes me want to go back in the work just long enough to speak at just one funeral.
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Post by rational on Oct 7, 2015 20:14:38 GMT -5
You'd better make sure your corpse doesn't sit up and tell the congregation you were just turned away at the pearly gates. Someone might laugh. ;) Ha! Rational, I think that's EXACTLY what your animatronic get-up should do! Thanks for the ideas. I was thinking of something along those lines: Sitting up and saying "I've changed my mind." Even saying "Thank you so much for coming." might be enough for a start. Then let my kids build on that! Wireless communication and personalize the communication. So many things that will remind people I care about that my funeral should not be a sad party. I had a very good friend who was losing her ability to speak and recorded some things that she felt she would need to say once she was unable to speak.
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Post by bluejay on Oct 7, 2015 21:23:36 GMT -5
A cousin quoted this on her facebook page last week:
When I die, I want a closed-casket funeral. However, towards the end of the service, please have the organist play “Pop Goes The Weasel” over and over, until everyone in attendance is staring at my coffin with mute, horrified anticipation.
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Post by SharonArnold on Oct 8, 2015 14:42:26 GMT -5
Would either of these qualify as a prayer in your (very limited) view of God? I am not certain that you can judge my view of god. They would be both prayers of supplication with a statement of submission added to the first. Yes, but you are thanking god for someone who has died. The inappropriateness is, in my mind, in the timing. After the first thankful sentence there is resentment that the person has been taken then followed by a statement of submission to smooth the tone. This sounds like the prayer of the dead. Thankfulness followed by supplication. With the exception of the prayers of thanksgiving, these prayers show a mere mortal trying to change the will of god. Most theists believe god had a plan. If the plan was not to teach them and keep them will a prayer change the mind of god? The record states this is not an option. You might try to open your mind to the possibility that some atheists may well have explored the various possibilities of god to an extent equal to or greater than some theists. As in any discussion, the definitions have to be acceptable to both. Atheists do not have a model of god that they can call up so must try to discover the characteristics of the god the other person is presenting. In this case, the god to whom the prayers are addressed. This is another example where your extreme literalism (in breaking up a post) takes away from coherency and meaning. So (one more time), I am not going to answer in the same manner. Your original question was <<At a time like that, what would the prayer be?>> In response, I posted two statements attributed to Jesus within a short time period prior to his death, and posed the question if, in your view, they would qualify as a prayer? If you go back to Pragmatic's original post, he is referring to a 'dying' person, i.e., not dead yet. I don’t think any of the example prayers I posted reflects a mere mortal trying to change the will of God. Quite the contrary, in fact. I do think I am quite qualified to judge your view of God. In the many posts of yours I have read through the years, you clearly do not believe in such a thing. That’s okay. I have absolutely no problem with that. But, when you dialog with current believers, you never present anything but the most literal, caricatured representation of the God of the Bible. That’s okay too. But it tells me that you have no clue over the many-layered personal experience that many believers apply the “God” label to. I do acknowledge that many people who self identify with the ‘atheist’ label, have given a great deal thought to their own personal existence. In some ways, one could argue that they are more highly evolved than many who self identify with the believer label. I have no problem with that. But, IMO, there are probably as many “atheists” who are as stubbornly dogmatic as the most extreme believer. One of the key things about a "dogma" is that you do not recognize it yourself. Sure, you clearly see it in another person. The other person has "beliefs". You, on the other hand, have "truth". (We all do it.)
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Post by rational on Oct 8, 2015 15:48:27 GMT -5
This is another example where your extreme literalism (in breaking up a post) takes away from coherency and meaning. I have to deal with a thought at a time. In the original post the dying person was in the room but it was others that were praying. The example you provided did not address the original situation presented. I have lost count of how many times I have asked people involved in a discussion to explain their view of god so we can both be on the same page. "God of the bible" is a common response. So, without additional information, the god of the bible fills in. If their god is different from the god of the bible why are there so few that explain the differences? Of course we all have biases. But one difference is that some are willing to provide data to support their point of view and modify what they believe if needed fit the data. It probably has more to do with being a skeptic than an atheist.
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lizzy
Senior Member
Posts: 530
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Post by lizzy on Oct 10, 2015 0:29:39 GMT -5
Quote - "I asked the workers to not make the funeral a gospel meeting, but to preach Jesus." That like say "I don't want a lecture about Global Warming, just tell me that the earth is getting hotter."
The Gospel is the Good News about Jesus. I am sure that is what you were told when you said this statement.I meant I didn't want them to preach the workers' way, but Jesus' way. Yes, I know that Jesus is the Gospel.
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Post by fred on Oct 10, 2015 1:52:38 GMT -5
Quote - "I asked the workers to not make the funeral a gospel meeting, but to preach Jesus." That like say "I don't want a lecture about Global Warming, just tell me that the earth is getting hotter."
The Gospel is the Good News about Jesus. I am sure that is what you were told when you said this statement.I meant I didn't want them to preach the workers' way, but Jesus' way. Yes, I know that Jesus is the Gospel. Mmm, but in some minds the two are inexorably linked - that's probably why Bert is confused.
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Post by SharonArnold on Oct 11, 2015 12:51:13 GMT -5
Of course we all have biases. But one difference is that some are willing to provide data to support their point of view and modify what they believe if needed fit the data. It probably has more to do with being a skeptic than an atheist. I think this is a really good point. Just because one is an atheist does not mean that one is a skeptic. (I would further add that just because one is a believer does not mean one is not a skeptic.) I think it is also worthwhile to consider what genuine skepticism really is. Too often, skepticism, in a modern sense, tends to proclaim that only mainstream science is correct and everything else is wrong or irrelevant. To my mind, true skepticism means listening to contrary evidence with an open mind and to question everything, including one’s deepest beliefs. A question that I have found worthwhile to reflect on is “What are the possible limitations of empirical data at potentially describing the entirety of human experience?” A little while ago I posted the principles of real science as articulated by Neil DeGrasse Tyson at the opening of his Cosmos series: 1) Test ideas by experiment and observation 2) Build on those ideas that pass the test 3) Reject the ones that fail 4) Follow the evidence where it leads 5) Question everything IMO, there is a tendency to ignore points #4 and (especially) #5 by otherwise intelligent people, which results in some really bad science and unnecessary polarization between groups of people.
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