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Post by magpie on Oct 3, 2015 7:33:55 GMT -5
Can you believe this? A very good man in Victoria died,sadly a very loyal 2x2,and the arrogant workers would not allow two of his adult children give a short eulogy of their good daddy.Callous and cold we call that.
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Post by rational on Oct 3, 2015 13:20:18 GMT -5
Can you believe this? A very good man in Victoria died,sadly a very loyal 2x2,and the arrogant workers would not allow two of his adult children give a short eulogy of their good daddy.Callous and cold we call that. How could they prevent it?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2015 20:24:51 GMT -5
Can you believe this? A very good man in Victoria died,sadly a very loyal 2x2,and the arrogant workers would not allow two of his adult children give a short eulogy of their good daddy.Callous and cold we call that. what were the wishes of the very good man?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2015 20:25:38 GMT -5
Can you believe this? A very good man in Victoria died,sadly a very loyal 2x2,and the arrogant workers would not allow two of his adult children give a short eulogy of their good daddy.Callous and cold we call that. How could they prevent it? by having a private family one
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Post by joanna on Oct 3, 2015 20:47:22 GMT -5
If there is going to be any hierarchy imposed after the death of a loved one, the loved ones of the deceased should be deferred to when arranging a funeral. Any person, preacher or other, who believes they have the right to dictate to newly bereaved persons are not only arrogant, they are lacking in compassion and respect.
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Post by fred on Oct 3, 2015 21:28:25 GMT -5
Can you believe this? A very good man in Victoria died,sadly a very loyal 2x2,and the arrogant workers would not allow two of his adult children give a short eulogy of their good daddy.Callous and cold we call that. How could they prevent it? Good question, but we know of the various pressures that can be used to gain acquiescence. However I was at a funeral not so long ago where the overseer had told the family that "we don't have eulogies". He was politely told that they would be and that was that. Weddings have changed a great deal too - at a recent one the 'minister' gave the blessing, a family member did a reading, and a soloist sang the wedding hymn. This was quite a large wedding in a high profile family - a very traditional affair. Gone are the days where numbers were to be under 40, and the bride's dress was to be such that she would wear to a Sunday meeting.
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 3, 2015 22:30:18 GMT -5
Can you believe this? A very good man in Victoria died,sadly a very loyal 2x2,and the arrogant workers would not allow two of his adult children give a short eulogy of their good daddy.Callous and cold we call that. This has happened more than once, but the one that I know of the son of the lady who passed away stood up to the workers and said he was going to have a part in his mothers funeral.
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Post by rational on Oct 4, 2015 10:52:07 GMT -5
How could they prevent it? Good question, but we know of the various pressures that can be used to gain acquiescence. However I was at a funeral not so long ago where the overseer had told the family that "we don't have eulogies". He was politely told that they would be and that was that. Exactly. If you do not have conviction that your needs are important why should others? If you think eulogies are what the deceased would have wanted and what you want it seems like the workers have a choice - eulogies with them or eulogies without them.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2015 21:52:08 GMT -5
Quote - "Bert, your cartoons aren't even exaggerated to the point of being humorous. I said before, don't give up your day job. You aren't aGary Larson or Charles M. Schulz."
Dmmichgood, the artwork is not actually my own.
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lizzy
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Post by lizzy on Oct 6, 2015 19:46:39 GMT -5
I go to meetings but siblings don't. One brother only wanted my professing mom's funeral to last 20 minutes. I asked the workers to not make the funeral a gospel meeting, but to preach Jesus. Don't know what they thought, but it was a 20 minute service and Jesus was preached!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2015 21:39:28 GMT -5
Quote - "I asked the workers to not make the funeral a gospel meeting, but to preach Jesus."
That like say "I don't want a lecture about Global Warming, just tell me that the earth is getting hotter."
The Gospel is the Good News about Jesus. I am sure that is what you were told when you said this statement.
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Post by blandie on Oct 6, 2015 21:49:22 GMT -5
The Gospel is the Good News about Jesus. I am sure that is what you were told when you said this statement. Yes gospel literally means good news. What is it that you understand as 'good news' in what you've heard the workers preaching? I'm seriously asking.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2015 21:54:55 GMT -5
It was news of Jesus Christ. His life, His death, His saving grace, His redemption, His love, His forgiveness.
Why.. what have YOU heard? That Jesus made a cute baby? That Jesus was a heroic martyr? That Jesus was a hunk of a man? That Jesus asks nothing in return?
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Post by rational on Oct 6, 2015 23:38:04 GMT -5
It was news of Jesus Christ. His life, His death, His saving grace, His redemption, His love, His forgiveness.
Why.. what have YOU heard? That Jesus made a cute baby? That Jesus was a heroic martyr? That Jesus was a hunk of a man? That Jesus asks nothing in return? That Jesus was a zombie?
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Post by Pragmatic on Oct 6, 2015 23:46:02 GMT -5
I have been at funerals where I was and still am ashamed of what was said. Relatives who belong to another church, travelled long distances only to have the choice of church insulted, and thrown in their face. The vanilla message, that many thought was great Gospel, had little to do with celebrating the life of the deceased, or comforting the relatives except to appeal to any smugness about being in "God's only true way." Using a funeral to leverage the preaching of the "Gospel", which is more about the sowing of seed methodology, than the Good News of the New Testament and reconciliation, redemption etc, is indeed poor taste, and worse, ignorant.
I have been in a room with a dying person, and the visiting workers, would and probably could, only talk about church logistics and resources. Nothing of comfort to the bereaved, or a prayer for the dying person drifting in and out of consciousness. I even asked if they would like to pray over him and with us, and they declined, being distinctly uncomfortable with the concept.
In subsequent discussions with them after the death and prior to the funeral showed that they were simply untrained for these events. (In saying this though, it's not the workers fault that they are not trained. It's only their fault when they refuse to have their eyes opened, or listen.) They had no clues, and it was obvious that they were unsure of what to do. One felt like he was past it, and the other had never spoken or prayed at a funeral before. To their credit, they did listen to us, and showed a willingness to comply with our wishes concerning the eulogies, the music, and their own message. We emphasised that a good sermon was seen, not just heard, and we were celebrating the deceased's life, natural and spiritual, and giving glory to God for it all. Non professing relatives watching the live-stream thought it was a lovely service, and that the workers were very good.
In summary, some things are broken, but they're not wrecked, and they can be fixed. All it it takes is a right attitude on all sides, and a good outcome can be achieved.
Maybe things will change for the better, I hope so. Pressure from the leity and an acknowledgment by the workers that they need to abide by the wished of the bereaved is the key. Otherwise funerals will end up being conducted by secular celebrants.
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Post by blandie on Oct 6, 2015 23:49:39 GMT -5
It was news of Jesus Christ. His life, His death, His saving grace, His redemption, His love, His forgiveness. What is particularly "good" about 'news of jesus christ'? his life? his death? his saving grace? his redemption? his love? his forgiveness? Why is this news or good news some 2000 years later? Those are all catch-phrases that people nod at and say and don't really get around to explaining and neither have you and its not even particularly clear who 'his' is in your list - are you talking about jesus or god or who? Why is it 'good news' that some man lived and died and had some experience of saving grace and had redemption and had love and was forgiven? What about the gospel you hear from workers makes it the true gospel that a person can't get from other preachers or by just sitting down and reading the scriptures?
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Post by rational on Oct 6, 2015 23:53:53 GMT -5
I have been in a room with a dying person, and the visiting workers, would and probably could, only talk about church logistics and resources. Nothing of comfort to the bereaved, or a prayer for the dying person drifting in and out of consciousness. I even asked if they would like to pray over him and with us, and they declined, being distinctly uncomfortable with the concept. At a time like that, what would the prayer be? Assuming you believe that god has a plan, is the request to change that plan? A prayer of thanksgiving would seem somehow inappropriate.
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 7, 2015 9:53:13 GMT -5
I have been in a room with a dying person, and the visiting workers, would and probably could, only talk about church logistics and resources. Nothing of comfort to the bereaved, or a prayer for the dying person drifting in and out of consciousness. I even asked if they would like to pray over him and with us, and they declined, being distinctly uncomfortable with the concept. At a time like that, what would the prayer be? Assuming you believe that god has a plan, is the request to change that plan? A prayer of thanksgiving would seem somehow inappropriate. . Why would a prayer of thanksgiving seem inappropriate?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2015 10:20:37 GMT -5
I agree that a prayer of thanksgiving may well be appropriate, depending on the circumstances. How about a prayer asking for comfort and the nearness of God's presence through the Holy Spirit. "Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil ..." etc.
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Post by rational on Oct 7, 2015 11:06:21 GMT -5
At a time like that, what would the prayer be? Assuming you believe that god has a plan, is the request to change that plan? A prayer of thanksgiving would seem somehow inappropriate. . Why would a prayer of thanksgiving seem inappropriate? I guess from my limited view thanking god for the death of a person seems a bit odd. Thanking god that it was the person in the casket and not me seems selfish. I guess you could thank god that the person died quickly (assuming that was the case) but that possibility is not beyond the reach of mere mortals. You could, I guess, thank god that the person didn't die sooner but that would be a valid prayer anytime any where. As you can see, prayer is not my forte. Here is, however, something written by Aaron Freeman as to why you might want a physicist to speak at a funeral: You want a physicist to speak at your funeral. You want the physicist to talk to your grieving family about the conservation of energy, so they will understand that your energy has not died. You want the physicist to remind your sobbing mother about the first law of thermodynamics; that no energy gets created in the universe, and none is destroyed. You want your mother to know that all your energy, every vibration, every Btu of heat, every wave of every particle that was her beloved child remains with her in this world. You want the physicist to tell your weeping father that amid energies of the cosmos, you gave as good as you got.
And at one point you'd hope that the physicist would step down from the pulpit and walk to your brokenhearted spouse there in the pew and tell him/her that all the photons that ever bounced off your face, all the particles whose paths were interrupted by your smile, by the touch of your hair, hundreds of trillions of particles, have raced off like children, their ways forever changed by you. And as your widow rocks in the arms of a loving family, may the physicist let him/her know that all the photons that bounced from you were gathered in the particle detectors that are his/her eyes, that those photons created within her constellations of electromagnetically charged neurons whose energy will go on forever.
And the physicist will remind the congregation of how much of all our energy is given off as heat. There may be a few fanning themselves with their programs as he says it. And he will tell them that the warmth that flowed through you in life is still here, still part of all that we are, even as we who mourn continue the heat of our own lives.
And you'll want the physicist to explain to those who loved you that they need not have faith; indeed, they should not have faith. Let them know that they can measure, that scientists have measured precisely the conservation of energy and found it accurate, verifiable and consistent across space and time. You can hope your family will examine the evidence and satisfy themselves that the science is sound and that they'll be comforted to know your energy's still around. According to the law of the conservation of energy, not a bit of you is gone; you're just less orderly. Amen. Tough to turn that into a gospel meeting!
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Post by rational on Oct 7, 2015 11:08:04 GMT -5
I agree that a prayer of thanksgiving may well be appropriate, depending on the circumstances. How about a prayer asking for comfort and the nearness of God's presence through the Holy Spirit. "Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil ..." etc. That would be supplication and not thanksgiving.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2015 11:51:54 GMT -5
I agree that a prayer of thanksgiving may well be appropriate, depending on the circumstances. How about a prayer asking for comfort and the nearness of God's presence through the Holy Spirit. "Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil ..." etc. That would be supplication and not thanksgiving. I was meaning both. Surely a prayer can encompass both thanksgiving and supplication? I am not sure that a prayer of supplication would be appropriate for someone who had lived a reprobate life where there was no repentance. If there was repentance, then there would be thanksgiving for that. So, to some degree, thankfulness and supplication go together. But I am no expert on prayer - I'm still learning.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2015 12:00:49 GMT -5
Rational - By thanksgiving, I don't think a true Christian is thanking God that they are not the person in the box! When my father died, my sense of thankfulness was that he had faithfully finished his course (I believe that to be the case) and he was beyond the point where anything could touch him or harm him anymore. And for that I was deeply thankful. I look back on his life with gratitude. He wasn't perfect of course - none of us are - but I believe he did his best. I realise that to a non-believer, this probably sounds like gibberish but that is where faith (or its absence) comes in. To a believer, death has lost its sting and there is a sense of rejoicing that the "pilgrim is home" which tempers the feeling of personal loss.
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Post by SharonArnold on Oct 7, 2015 16:35:07 GMT -5
I have been in a room with a dying person, and the visiting workers, would and probably could, only talk about church logistics and resources. Nothing of comfort to the bereaved, or a prayer for the dying person drifting in and out of consciousness. I even asked if they would like to pray over him and with us, and they declined, being distinctly uncomfortable with the concept. At a time like that, what would the prayer be? Assuming you believe that god has a plan, is the request to change that plan? A prayer of thanksgiving would seem somehow inappropriate. Would either of these qualify as a prayer in your (very limited) view of God? "Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." Or, a prayer of thanksgiving is far more likely for ordinary human beings: "Thank you for this person who I love and who has taught me so much, and has meant so very much to me. Even though it wounds me deeply, I submit to 'life's procession that marches in majesty and proud submission towards the infinite'. Thank you. Thank you." "Thank you for my life and the opportunity to serve. Thank you for the people I love so much who I am leaving behind. Teach them, and keep them, and help them feel my love and Your love." (You might try to open your mind to the possibility that "God" is much more than a big Santa Claus in the sky.)
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Post by fixit on Oct 7, 2015 16:55:14 GMT -5
I have been in a room with a dying person, and the visiting workers, would and probably could, only talk about church logistics and resources. Nothing of comfort to the bereaved, or a prayer for the dying person drifting in and out of consciousness. I even asked if they would like to pray over him and with us, and they declined, being distinctly uncomfortable with the concept. At a time like that, what would the prayer be? Assuming you believe that god has a plan, is the request to change that plan? A prayer of thanksgiving would seem somehow inappropriate. Unlike some Christians, I wouldn't ask God to change his plan. I would ask God to change me to accept, and fit better into, his plan. A prayer of thanksgiving would never seem inappropriate to me. I always have much to be thankful for. Don't you?
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Post by rational on Oct 7, 2015 17:06:35 GMT -5
At a time like that, what would the prayer be? Assuming you believe that god has a plan, is the request to change that plan? A prayer of thanksgiving would seem somehow inappropriate. Would either of these qualify as a prayer in your (very limited) view of God? I am not certain that you can judge my view of god. They would be both prayers of supplication with a statement of submission added to the first. Yes, but you are thanking god for someone who has died. The inappropriateness is, in my mind, in the timing. After the first thankful sentence there is resentment that the person has been taken then followed by a statement of submission to smooth the tone. This sounds like the prayer of the dead. Thankfulness followed by supplication. With the exception of the prayers of thanksgiving, these prayers show a mere mortal trying to change the will of god. Most theists believe god had a plan. If the plan was not to teach them and keep them will a prayer change the mind of god? The record states this is not an option. You might try to open your mind to the possibility that some atheists may well have explored the various possibilities of god to an extent equal to or greater than some theists. As in any discussion, the definitions have to be acceptable to both. Atheists do not have a model of god that they can call up so must try to discover the characteristics of the god the other person is presenting. In this case, the god to whom the prayers are addressed.
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Post by swarupa on Oct 7, 2015 17:20:14 GMT -5
when my mom passed we had a worker do the service. none of the family was professing, we were filled with sorrow so we really didn't hear what the worker even said. we were are all in shock. when we came to the cemetery, we sang my moms favorite hymn. I came out of my grief and sang with every one else. a young man came up to me and said i had lunch with your mom last Sunday, and she expressed she wanted me to tell u she wanted you to come back to God. i said , thank u, but my mom knows i am OK, she understands, that young man couldn't get out of the cemetery fast enough.
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Post by rational on Oct 7, 2015 17:26:25 GMT -5
At a time like that, what would the prayer be? Assuming you believe that god has a plan, is the request to change that plan? A prayer of thanksgiving would seem somehow inappropriate. Unlike some Christians, I wouldn't ask God to change his plan. I would ask God to change me to accept, and fit better into, his plan. A prayer of thanksgiving would never seem inappropriate to me. I always have much to be thankful for. Don't you? Yes, I have a lot to be thankful for. And I express my thanks to those who are actually responsible - wife, children, grandchildren, friends, maryhig(for having her phone set to notify her!), and many others. In the case of thanking god, I would feel hypocritical thanking her/him for the things that benefited me but failing to thank her/him to task for the events that kill and harm others and do not benefit, or even harm, me. If a theist really believes that god is in control and that god's actions are fair and just then there is no reason why they should not give thanks to god if their child is struck and killed by a drunk driver just as they would thank god if their child recovered after being struck by a drunk driver.
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