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Post by fixit on Sept 8, 2015 21:47:09 GMT -5
Do you consider God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be three separate beings? Fixit isn't that question attempting to confine the spirit realm to the limitations of our understanding Given that the bible is progressive revelation and in the last chapter we read Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him ( this speaks of one throne) I am trying to understand why it is so important they are seen as completely separate I only asked the question because they were positioned as three separate beings in a post. The Jesus = God theology poses all sorts of problems. It makes a human God and it makes God human.
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Post by fixit on Sept 8, 2015 23:33:44 GMT -5
Ross, you seem to have the problem with F&W's not worshipping your three-in-one God.
I have no problem with using the biblical terminology instead of the doctrine of men.
God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ is good enough for me.
I can't imagine that God will clobber me for it.
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Post by fixit on Sept 8, 2015 23:38:29 GMT -5
I see that you answered "Yahweh". Here's what my Youngs Bible Dictionary says for Jehovah: [read by Jews elohim, prob Yahweh] Elohim means: God, gods, objects of worship. Yahweh is the personal name of God. Also Jehovah. Elohim means as you state - God or gods. You can see the difference in the OT where God states a number of times that he (Yahweh, Jehovah is their one and only God (Elohim). Question remains - is Jesus called Yahweh, Jehovah in the Bible. Is he given the personal name of God? Many times. The JW's have different answers for each time and in some cases they've changed established translations into their Bible to fit with their revelation. I haven't looked in detail at it for ages but at the time when I did (before I left 2x2's) I spoke to people who knew Hebrew and Greek well and did that again (with different people) soon after I left. Answers are the same - JW's twist themselves into knots denying the deity of Christ. Yahweh and Jehovah are English words. Have you spoken with followers of Judaism? They don't see Jesus in the OT at all, so I doubt they will see him as Jehovah.
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Post by fixit on Sept 8, 2015 23:42:03 GMT -5
I don't use the word worship in reference to Jesus only because Christians tends to have a wrong understanding of this word IMO. And yes, I do Tip my Hat to him, but I'm pretty sure I'll fall in my face when I stand before him as he is my lord and Master, and he's the one who has been given judgment and has the keys to life and death. I can't imagine God will clobber you for falling on your face before his dearly beloved son.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2015 0:00:10 GMT -5
With some he has lost his divinity. Why on earth anyone would believe that a human being who was not divine could save them eternally is hard to fathom. Who's saying Jesus is not divine? yea we sing it enough in our hymns
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Post by holdmyhand on Sept 9, 2015 0:11:23 GMT -5
Fixit isn't that question attempting to confine the spirit realm to the limitations of our understanding Given that the bible is progressive revelation and in the last chapter we read Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him( this speaks of one throne) I am trying to understand why it is so important they are seen as completely separate Holdmyhand I LOVE that verse; the picture we are given of the wonderful eternal scene where time will not be one of the dimensions! I am unable to see anything of the trinity about the scene...can you? Rather it is one of many verse that confirms to me that trinity is a valiant but ineffective and vain attempt to define God. Please note I have not said anything about the trinity You need to stop and read what is written before jumping on everything that reveals the divinity of Jesus and labelling it as trinity
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Post by fixit on Sept 9, 2015 0:12:01 GMT -5
Yahweh and Jehovah are English words. Have you spoken with followers of Judaism? They don't see Jesus in the OT at all, so I doubt they will see him as Jehovah. I've spoken with Jewish people. They see a promised Messiah in the OT - they are still waiting for Him to come. Ross, can you confirm that the followers of Judaism you've spoken with see the promised messiah as Jehovah God?
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Post by fixit on Sept 9, 2015 0:56:44 GMT -5
Ross, can you confirm that the followers of Judaism you've spoken with see the promised messiah as Jehovah God? My understanding is that they see the Messiah as a man who will be chosen by God to rebuild the temple, bring the exiles back to Israel and usher in the new age. He will be a man, a bit like a King David (definitely in the line of King David), not a god in any way, shape or form. Yahweh is the personal name of God. Also Jehovah. Elohim means as you state - God or gods. You can see the difference in the OT where God states a number of times that he (Yahweh, Jehovah is their one and only God (Elohim). Question remains - is Jesus called Yahweh, Jehovah in the Bible. Is he given the personal name of God? Many times. The JW's have different answers for each time and in some cases they've changed established translations into their Bible to fit with their revelation. I haven't looked in detail at it for ages but at the time when I did (before I left 2x2's) I spoke to people who knew Hebrew and Greek well and did that again (with different people) soon after I left. Answers are the same - JW's twist themselves into knots denying the deity of Christ. Yahweh and Jehovah are English words. Have you spoken with followers of Judaism? They don't see Jesus in the OT at all, so I doubt they will see him as Jehovah. It looks like you've contradicted yourself. You asked: - is Jesus called Yahweh, Jehovah in the Bible? Is he given the personal name of God?You later wrote of the Messiah: He will be a man, a bit like a King David (definitely in the line of King David), not a god in any way, shape or form.
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Post by fixit on Sept 9, 2015 5:57:29 GMT -5
It looks like you've contradicted yourself. You asked: - is Jesus called Yahweh, Jehovah in the Bible? Is he given the personal name of God?You later wrote of the Messiah: He will be a man, a bit like a King David (definitely in the line of King David), not a god in any way, shape or form.You asked me how followers of Judaism that I've spoken to thought of the Messiah. I answered that I understand they believe "He will be a man, bit like a Kind David, not a god...." This is how they see the promised Messiah - not how I see the promised Messiah in the OT. Let's see if I've got this correct: 1. Jews know Hebrew language and culture better than we native English speakers. 2. OT Jews saw that the Messiah was definitely not Jehovah. 3. NT Jews saw that Jesus was definitely claiming to be God, so they killed him. Why do you use the perceptiveness of the NT Jews to shore up your flimsy Trinitarian dogma, yet you claim that the OT Jews got it all wrong? Why do you think a native English speaker thousands of years later can better interpret the OT than the Jews whose culture it belonged to? Could it be that the Messiah is the son of God, and not Jehovah after all?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2015 9:47:31 GMT -5
I believe that Jesus was begotten of the Father before all beings. Through Jesus God made all things. Jesus was the beginning of the creation of God because all things were made through him and for him. He is the first and last because the first creation and the last creation are through him. He is the beginning and the end because salvation begins with him and is finalized in him. This in no way 'equates' him with the Father. I don't use the word worship in reference to Jesus only because Christians tends to have a wrong understanding of this word IMO. And yes, I do Tip my Hat to him, but I'm pretty sure I'll fall in my face when I stand before him as he is my lord and Master, and he's the one who has been given judgment and has the keys to life and death. Thanks for your answer. So in short you believe: 1. The Father created the Son - it was his first creation. 2. I take it you believe Jesus is divine but you didn't answer this specifically. 3. You don't worship Jesus. Do you sing the hymns in the book that do worship Jesus? I believe that Jesus is divine in the biblical sense, not the Ross sense.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2015 12:33:08 GMT -5
Thanks for your answer. So in short you believe: 1. The Father created the Son - it was his first creation. 2. I take it you believe Jesus is divine but you didn't answer this specifically. 3. You don't worship Jesus. Do you sing the hymns in the book that do worship Jesus? I believe that Jesus is divine in the biblical sense, not the Ross sense. I'd say that 'begotten' and 'created' are not one and the same. I have children. Did I 'create' them, or are they 'begotten' if me? If they are begotten, then they take my name. They are not the same person as me, nor are they equal to me. I'll always be older than them. It's the same with Jesus and the Father. He was begotten, and as such he's subordinate to the Father.
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Post by fixit on Sept 9, 2015 13:28:36 GMT -5
You can call the Trinity doctrine anything you like - it doesn't worry me. It's not my doctrine It's just a tad more researched than JW doctrine and blogs. True, it's not your doctrine in the sense that you didn't come to it by yourself. If well-researched is important to you, let's see what Stanford University makes of biblical trinitarianism...
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Post by fixit on Sept 9, 2015 22:26:39 GMT -5
True, it's not your doctrine in the sense that you didn't come to it by yourself. If well-researched is important to you, let's see what Stanford University makes of biblical trinitarianism... Correction - it is what a couple of academics (philosophers) think about the Trinity and the paper is on the Stanford site. It's hardly the Stanford University's opinion! Stanford is a wonderful institution but why would I put great merit on what a secular institution (the authors are likely not Christians - I don't know?) says about the Bible. And why should I take more notice of fourth century Catholic theologians than 21st century academics? You claimed this stuff was well researched, but it seems full of holes to me. I'm about done on this topic Ross. Can we agree to differ and move on?
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 9, 2015 23:02:08 GMT -5
Well,-all you guys had better get this TRINITY business correct! A lot of blood has already been shed over the conflict on this more-important-than-anything-else idea! Your gateway to HEAVEN or HELL depends on whether you get it right!
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Post by fixit on Sept 9, 2015 23:26:13 GMT -5
And why should I take more notice of fourth century Catholic theologians than 21st century academics? You claimed this stuff was well researched, but it seems full of holes to me. I'm about done on this topic Ross. Can we agree to differ and move on? I'm not quoting 4th century Catholic theologians nor 21st Century academics. I'm not quoting Jehovah's Witness blogs. I am interested in what the Scriptures say, what the early Christians said and did and what Christian teachers particularly those with a detailed understanding of Hebrew and Greek, have to say. I've enjoyed the back and forth. I'm sure we've learned new things from it. Not sure anyone else has enjoyed it but that's the joy of a public board. You're interested in what folks with a detailed understanding of Hebrew have to say? Yet Hebrew people say the Messiah is definitely not God?
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Post by maryhig on Sept 10, 2015 2:44:09 GMT -5
Ross, to me Jesus isn't God. My uncle never believed that. He never ever said that, and he went to meetings with Edward. He told us that God is God almighty, and Jesus is the Christ his son. If you want to believe that so be it. But I don't agree with you in this. Right through the bible God is above Jesus. And Christ is at his right hand. Everything is given to him from God. So he isn't God. That's what I believe is right, because it says so in the bible. I won't say anymore, it will go on and on again otherwise. Edward Cooney wrote in a letter to Willie, Fred and Sadie Wood dated 1 April 1952: "Now will conclude by greeting all who desire to be children of God not in the conceit of our hearts saying: 'I am of Christ," for Jesus never said 'I am of Christ', but claimed to be the Son of God. He always claimed that God was His Father; and that although he was the mighty God, his Father was mightier and greater than he. He was the greatest born of woman, then John the Baptist. Yours lovingly in Christ, Edward Cooney" In another letter dated 22 March 1951 to Sadie Wood, Edward Cooney states: "Ghandi states: It was more than I could believe that Jesus was the only incarnate Son of God. I could accept Jesus as a matyr as the embodiment of sacrifice and a divine teacher, but not as the most perfect man ever born. Edward Cooney remarks in response: Jesus was the only man who had previous existence as the Son of God before He was born of Mary and became the Son of Man. The Son of God emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant (Phil 2:7). All reborn become children of God. Only one is the Son of God. Only one was. He who was manifest in the flesh, holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners. He as the Son of Man is the only man who can be worshipped. Those who worship the Son of Man, worship the Son of God, worship His Father, and he could say" "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father". Interesting writings from the hand of Edward Cooney on who Jesus is and why Jesus deserves our worship. John Long also states concerning William Irvine that "concerning the principals of the Doctrine of Christ, he was sound. He believed in the fall of man, in the Atonement, in the Trinity, in the Divinity of our Lord, in the immortality of the soul, in the resurrection of the body, the inspiration of the Bible, in Heaven for the saved, and in Hell for the lost. He believed in a personal Devil, the enemy of God and man....etc" While the early workers differentiated themselves from established churches and ministers on Matt 10, the claim to apostleship, baptism, "Jesus was a common man" they accepted core Christian doctrine including the Trinity. There was absolutely no issue with it. When these leaders died out and were replaced by others, belief in the one God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit was gradually abandoned, as evidenced by the change in hymns between the 1951 and 1987 books. Hi Ross, I didn't answer this until I had an a conversation with a couple of people. I spoke to 2 people that go to our meetings. One of nearly 80 and she went to Edwards meetings when she was young with her mother. And she said there is no way that Edward believed Jesus was God. He believed that Jesus was the Christ, the begotten son of God. Who was sinless and who was in the express image of God. But he wasn't God. She said that she has never heard that in any meetings that she's been to. And that Jesus had always been referred to as the son of God in all meetings she's attended. As did her the other lady. Who had been going to meetings since she was a child and she's nearly 70. She said the trinity has never been taught in any if our meetings either in Wales or Ireland. She asked me to let you know this, and that to our people this is wrong. And that there is only one God, the almighty God. Although his spirit was wholly in his son. She said, Jesus isn't God. I also asked them about worshipping Jesus. And they said that when worshipping Jesus, people saw God in him (the holy spirit fully) and worshipped God in Jesus. But still Jesus isn't God. They said as I did. We are to worship God alone. I also saw this yesterday John 10 I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him Jesus said Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? It's the spirit within that is God. Not the man. Jesus was divine, he is the Christ, he is from God, he was sanctified by the father, and he was in the express image of God, he lived not in the flesh but his life was wholly with God, and he came in the absolute image of the father and Satan couldn't touch him because he denied him completely and never sinned. And man bares the image of God when the word comes upon us and we are at one with God and Christ. When the Jews said to Jesus that he is making himself God. He clearly corrected them and said "because I said I am the son of God" Ross, I don't have anything against you honestly, I've been asked to let you know about Edward and I have. I don't want to get into a debate about it. I think they know as they've been to his meetings and have been brought up this way. And I trust them completely.
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Post by maryhig on Sept 10, 2015 3:13:31 GMT -5
Hi Ross, I didn't answer this until I had an a conversation with a couple of people. I spoke to 2 people that go to our meetings. One of nearly 80 and she went to Edwards meetings when she was young with her mother. And she said there is no way that Edward believed Jesus was God. He believed that Jesus was the Christ, the begotten son of God. Who was sinless and who was in the express image of God. But he wasn't God. She said that she has never heard that in any meetings that she's been to. And that Jesus had always been referred to as the son of God in all meetings she's attended. As did her the other lady. Who had been going to meetings since she was a child and she's nearly 70. She said the trinity has never been taught in any if our meetings either in Wales or Ireland. She asked me to let you know this, and that to our people this is wrong. And that there is only one God, the almighty God. Although his spirit was wholly in his son. She said, Jesus isn't God. I also asked them about worshipping Jesus. And they said that when worshipping Jesus, people saw God in him (the holy spirit fully) and worshipped God in Jesus. But still Jesus isn't God. They said as I did. We are to worship God alone. I also saw this yesterday John 10 I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him Jesus said Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? It's the spirit within that is God. Not the man. Jesus was divine, he is the Christ, he is from God, he was sanctified by the father, and he was on the express image of God, he lived not in the flesh but his life was wholly with God, and he came in the absolute image of the father and Satan couldn't touch him because he denied him completely and never sinned. And man bares the image of God when the word comes upon us and we are at one with God and Christ. When the Jews said to Jesus that he is making himself God. He clearly corrected them and said "because I said I am the son of God" Ross, I don't have anything against you honestly, I've been asked to let you know about Edward and I have. I don't want to get into a debate about it. I think they know as they've been to his meetings and have been brought up this way. And I trust them completely. Thanks Maryhig - I didn't write what Edward wrote. If Edward made such serious statements I can only assume he believed them! So the older lady disagrees with what Edward wrote? Respectfully, she should look at the many, many parts of Scripture where the apostles/disciples worshipped Jesus. They didn't worship the Father in Him, they worshipped Him. We have the Holy Spirit living in us as well but we as humans are not to be worshipped. It would be rather odd if someone fell down before us and then said "I'm only worshipping the God that lives in you...." By the way, and as you know, Jesus is the Christ, the begotten Son of God. Yes it would be rather odd if anyone worshipped us, then again. Were not sinless, and were not the Christ. Jesus came fully in the image of God. We don't. We're sinners. Anyway Ross, that's our beliefs. But God looks at the sincerity of our hearts and that's what we are judged on. So the most important thing is living right before God. And having faith and loving him with all our hearts and caring for all that we meet. Living out the works that the spirit is doing in our hearts. Showing the spirit of Christ. I hope you have a good holiday, at least you can have a rest from the trinity debate
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2015 9:21:02 GMT -5
Ross, have a great holiday, wherever you are going. Keep safe.
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Post by whyisitso on Sept 10, 2015 17:19:29 GMT -5
Ross Have a good holiday! See if you can work out how you are going to stop getting 'egg on your face' every time you try extol your beloved trinity......since it falls down when put under the spotlight of Scripture. For a little light relaxation see if you can work out why on earth you keep mocking, deriding and criticize the church your dear Mum and family attend (and and also number of us who use this forum). I'm offering odds that you won't be able to keep away from TMB even though you will be on holiday .....but we won't mind if you give us all a pleasant holiday from your negative critical posts for a few weeks! trinity studying holiday wishes! Beautiful posts so full of grace over the past 24 hours Review. About 30 of them I counted. I wonder do you show your posts to YOUR parents? I wonder what THEY would think? Or your family even? Are they professing? Do they see your posts? Maybe you could show them? I'd love to know what they all think.
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Post by Scott Ross on Sept 11, 2015 22:51:28 GMT -5
Ross It's been good for viewers observe your inability and refusal to respond to questions from Scripture about trinity. It's let folks see that inspite of you so strongly expressing how 'right' trinity is you won't allow it to be put in the light of the Word of God. Come back expounding it any old time you like! We'll each time test your dogma against the Word of God... and expose it for what it actually is. Many Thanks review I just hate to see another trinity thread slip away (HA!), so here is a copy of a few emails between myself and a lady that contacted me back in 2007 with my thoughts on the subject. (oldest email is last) I will preface this by saying that I don't think it matters whether a person believes in the trinity or not in regard to salvation. God knows our hearts, and being the imperfect beings that we are, we bumble our way through our lives......each of us with our own personal convictions, and each of us doing our best to live by such convictions. To those who do not believe in God, we probably look pretty stupid for believing in a 'paranormal being'. Fine. I do a good job of looking pretty stupid at a lot of things in my life, so it doesn't bother me. Also, I am not posting this to get drawn into the trinity discussion, simply to give my outlook on the subject. It really doesn't matter to me how others believe. I don't live my life or base my beliefs on someone else's convictions. XXXXXXXXXXXXXX No need to fear. I'm quite mature and my husband is aware of this correspondence as well I am a mother of 4. Although I am a professing Christian, don't be so quick to stereotype those of us who believe in wearing long hair There are those who have the same conviction who are neither "professing" nor pentecostal. My convictions concerning hair and makeup came before I went to meetings. As far as why I chose you to ask the questions of- To be quite frank, yours was the first postings I read that didn't seem to have the malicious tone of hate and accusation to them. What I can't understand, is that these people continue to say time and again that they don't hate, they want to help. I say, "You know them by their fruit." They may think they are helping, but their words say "hate" very loud and clear. And, if they are truly believing that they say these things in order to help, when I read their postings, I just keep thinking to myself, "I should see the error of my ways so that I can become like them?" Thanks, but no thanks. I'll stick with Jesus instead. All this weekend while we traveled, my thoughts kept turning to Jesus on the cross; worst of the criminals to be hung on a cross, how despicable! Called a liar, called a blasphemer, accusation after accusation hurled upon Him. But for those who love Him, He is their King, their Savior, their Redeemer, the One who loves them when no one else does, or will, the One who will never forsake them because He knows how it feels and He's been there and He has overcome. For ME!!! With tears in my eyes and shaky hands I honestly believe I can understand what Peter felt when he cut off that soldiers ear; to stand by and watch as others mistreated his Lord and Savior, the One he loved! But as Jesus suffered, we will suffer: the servant is not above his master. As for this topic that I asked you about, I will read your reply and may get back to you on some of it. I have some family that believes this and I just can't quite shake the idea that somehow it's really not so different what we believe, it's just in how we understand it, or the lack of words to explain what God has shown us. Good days to you Scott Ross, and keep reading and studying, you have no idea what I might throw at you next! LOL xxxx
On 4/15/07, bescottross@aol.com <bescottross@aol.com> wrote:
B. SCOTT ROSS -----Original Message----- From: bescottross@aol.com To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 11:03 PM
hi again xxxx,
I'm not sure if I was the best choice for you to get answers from concerning Jesus being God. This is a subject I have tended to stay away from on the TMB, as others seem to have more knowledge concerning this than I do. Of course now that you asked the question of me, I have had to search scripture and so I now have more knowledge than before....
To me, just the fact that Jesus claimed to be the Word, and referred to himself as 'I AM' is enough for me. Of everything I've read in the bible, the one thing I always fall back on is the words of Jesus. I'm pretty sure I can trust him. I personally do not think that one has to try to understand the Trinity concept in order to be saved. It is however, (considered) one of the cornerstones of Christianity. I notice you didn't ask me about the Holy Spirit, so I never addressed it. However, just so you can understand me a little more I will say that yes the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised I believe to be Jesus within us as the 'Comforter'- I like that word......
There is much more to the belief of Jesus being God than what I have copied here. These are the passages that I personally have found the most useful.
Could you tell me a few things xxxx? First off, why did you pick me to ask this question of? I certainly don't think that I come across as the one with the most knowledge on the TMB. Secondly, can you tell me something of yourself? It will go no farther than me. When you mentioned going away with your family, I didn't know if you mean as the mother, or as a daughter. Again, I am making some assumptions here, but I am pretty sure that you are professing based on how you researched the hair issue. If you are a daughter, I don't want you to be getting in trouble by corresponding with some man on the internet. I do know some really neat women on the TMB that could help you with any questions you may have. Otherwise, I will be happy to correspond with you concerning other issues you may have questions about.
Have a wonderful day, and I hope the following verses can help you. They are kind of disjointed as I did a lot of copy and pasting.
scott
Mathew 13
40 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
-This is a reference showing Jesus is in charge of the angels, andit is his kingdom-
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Mark 2 5When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven." 6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7"Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
-Jesus did not correct them concerning being called God- xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
John 1
The Word Became Flesh
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood [ a] it. 6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. [ b] 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[ c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. xxxxxxxxxxxxxx John 8
17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me." 19Then they asked him, "Where is your father?" " You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."
58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
-This is in reference to God when he spoke-
Genisis 3
13 Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?" 14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . [ b] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ' I AM has sent me to you.' "
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John 10
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish ; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all [ d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one." 31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
-again Jesus did not correct them for calling him God, and he is saying that he grants eternal life-
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John 12
44Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. 46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
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John 14
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know[ b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." 8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." 9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
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John 17
John 17
Jesus Prays for Himself
1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began......
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you . May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
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Colosians 2
9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.
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Philippians 2
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature[ a] God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,7but made himself nothing,taking the very nature[ b] of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross!
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Hebrews 1
6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." [ d] 7In speaking of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire." [ e] 8But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
-this is an example of God calling Jesus God- xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Well xxxx there you have it. If you were truly wanting to have scripture to reference these are what I have to offer. Hope they can help you.
Scott Ross
Well........... I accidentaly sent this to an old high school friend instead of you. Now I'll have to email her and tell her oops..... She's a Christian so she will probably enjoy reading it...
And my old high school friend and I ended up having a great conversation about our faith.
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Post by jetmech on Mar 8, 2016 22:50:34 GMT -5
I have to ask some questions: Proverbs Chapter 30 verse 4, (which is in the OLD TESTAMENT), says: " Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell ...?" This was written long before the birth of Jesus; but, to me, it seems that this identifies GOD and his son as separate entities. Then, St. Matthew Chapter 12 verse 31 says "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." Okay, now, if there were a trinity, why wouldn't it say something like " ... blasphemy against GOD, JESUS, and THE HOLY GHOST ..." It doesn't. It clearly says "... blasphemy against the Holy Ghost ..." Therefore, at this point, it looks to me like the Holy Ghost is one entity unto itself. I don't disagree that Jesus Christ was in heaven at the foundation of the world, because Jesus said himself " ... I knew you before you were born ...," and St. John Chapter 3 verse 13 says " ... no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven ..." In the beginning, clear back in Genesis it says regarding the creation of man " ... let "us" make man in "our" image ... Therefore, again, showing more than one person's image being duplicated in the creation, (Genesis 1: 26,27). When Jesus was on the earth ministering unto human beings he said in Matthew 5:48 " Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" If Jesus were GOD why would he be saying at that time " ... God is in heaven ...?" Truly, I am not trying to start an argument about the Trinity; but, I am just trying to show why I question the Trinity. ISAIAH 44:8 says " ... Is there a GOD beside me? yea, there is no GOD; I know not any ..." and ISAIAH 45:5 " ... I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no GOD beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me ..." To me this is clearly "oneness" GOD referring to himself as "ONE" "singular" "oneness" " the ONE and almighty GOD" and what does Jesus say about it? First of all, Jesus said the BIBLE is written so that a child may understand it. It is common sense. Jesus said in St. John 5:30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which has sent me." St. John 5:30 and in St. John Ch 5 verse 19 Jesus said " ... The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the son likewise ..." Therefore, again, clearly, Jesus is a separate entity observing what the Father does then doing likewise himself. This clearly contrasts the notion that JESUS IS GOD! Why would GOD observe himself then do as GOD does? It doesn't make sense. In John 14:28 " ... I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I ..." If JESUS were, in fact, GOD there would be no "ranking" as to authority or anything else. All three would be equal parts; but, Jesus explains " ... My Father is greater than I ..." The book of Mark chapter 13:32 says "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the son, but the Father." Again, if Jesus were, in fact, GOD this would make no sense. Ok, let's look at temptation ... James tells us GOD can not be tempted. James 1:13 " ... Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of GOD: for GOD cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." However, Jesus was, in fact, tempted according to Hebrews 4:15 " For we have not an high priest can not be touched with the feelings of our infirmities; but, was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." So, although Jesus did not sin he WAS tempted, and Chapter 2:14 " For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted." Therefore, If Jesus were GOD how is it that GOD can not be tempted, but Jesus can, but they are the same person? That sounds like a quadraphonic scitzophrenic to me!!! How could GOD be tempted to sin against himself? It makes no sense; furthermore, GOD can not die. Psalm 90:2 " ... from everlasting to everlasting thou art GOD ..." So, GOD is everlasting, but Jesus died and was in the grave for 3 days. Okay, look if Jesus were GOD then this would mean MEN, on earth, have, in fact, seen GOD. John 1:18 says " ... no man hath seen GOD at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." So, Jesus declared GOD, but could not have been GOD himself, because it says clearly in the BIBLE, in more than one place, "NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME." Jesus said clearly before his ascention " ... I ascend to My Father and your father, and my GOD and your GOD ..." I saw an ex-worker, Oleva (Cook) Onan, last year, and I asked her if the people in the truth believe in the Trinity. She answered " ... well, they do sort of, but not in the sense that the world does ..." " ... in other words, she continued, we believe that GOD, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are all completely separate of each other, and that Jesus IS the son of GOD ..." I have to say, from what I read in the Bible, I believe she is right. They are of one mind (all in agreement, in sync with their belief system; but, separate spirits and separate entities).
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