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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2015 15:08:43 GMT -5
interesting- appreciated our recent convention in McCordsville, Indiana.
Barry Barkley emphasized that Jesus was fully God but came to earth to become human to enable the lowly sinners such as ourselves to be justified through Him and be with Him in heaven. Barry spoke of the relationship between "God the Father and God the Son." He tied Psalm 22 -- the prophesied words and experience of Jesus -- with passages in the New Testament. These thoughts, perhaps, are nothing "new" to the Bible-believing Christian, but I appreciated the spirit and illumination with which Barry presented elements of our hope in the gospel -- and our need and joyous privilege to make Christ the focal point of all our living. *** This sounds better than some gems posted from recent conventions.
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Post by 007 on Sept 1, 2015 15:11:59 GMT -5
Pity some posting to this forum were not there to hear it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2015 16:13:04 GMT -5
interesting- appreciated our recent convention in McCordsville, Indiana. Barry Barkley emphasized that Jesus was fully God but came to earth to become human to enable the lowly sinners such as ourselves to be justified through Him and be with Him in heaven. Barry spoke of the relationship between "God the Father and God the Son." He tied Psalm 22 -- the prophesied words and experience of Jesus -- with passages in the New Testament. These thoughts, perhaps, are nothing "new" to the Bible-believing Christian, but I appreciated the spirit and illumination with which Barry presented elements of our hope in the gospel -- and our need and joyous privilege to make Christ the focal point of all our living. *** to this I fully agree and have never know other wise
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2015 22:44:10 GMT -5
He better be careful. I was once called the anti-Christ by a zealous truther for discussing "God the Son".
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Post by fred on Sept 3, 2015 18:11:07 GMT -5
It may be interesting but I doubt whether it would prove anything one way or another, sometimes folk listen with their ears but let things slip through without any further thought.
Some years ago an American worker spoke at convention of the baby Jesus saying, "now here is this little babe, fully human and yet fully divine". His statement astounded me as I'd never heard a worker say something like that before.
I spoke with several people later about this (including two brother workers) and I got what might be best described as a blank look - none remembered hearing it. Is this like confirmation bias (thanks Jesse) in reverse?
If what Barry talked about is correctly reported here I have no doubt that with most it would have gone 'straight through to the keeper' ( heh, heh, cricketer's terminology).
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Post by fred on Sept 3, 2015 20:03:59 GMT -5
What are you trying to say Fred? Nothing, really ........ just a comment about the processing of auditory information.
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Post by fixit on Sept 3, 2015 20:23:06 GMT -5
Some years ago an American worker spoke at convention of the baby Jesus saying, "now here is this little babe, fully human and yet fully divine". His statement astounded me as I'd never heard a worker say something like that before. The word "divine" features in our hymn book more than 30 times. Have you ever sung this one Fred? God’s own way abides the same In every age and clime. There is but one true saving name: The name of Christ divine.
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Post by fred on Sept 3, 2015 20:40:57 GMT -5
Some years ago an American worker spoke at convention of the baby Jesus saying, "now here is this little babe, fully human and yet fully divine". His statement astounded me as I'd never heard a worker say something like that before. The word "divine" features in our hymn book more than 30 times. Have you ever sung this one Fred? God’s own way abides the same In every age and clime. There is but one true saving name: The name of Christ divine. I think you misread me fixit. I was not astonished because I did not believe it, but rather I had never heard it so explicitly in any preaching from the platform. Concerning the singing of hymns, I believe not a lot of thought goes into analysing the meaning of the words as we sing.
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Post by fixit on Sept 3, 2015 21:05:20 GMT -5
The word "divine" features in our hymn book more than 30 times. Have you ever sung this one Fred? God’s own way abides the same In every age and clime. There is but one true saving name: The name of Christ divine. I think you misread me fixit. I was not astonished because I did not believe it, but rather I had never heard it so explicitly in any preaching from the platform. Concerning the singing of hymns, I believe not a lot of thought goes into analysing the meaning of the words as we sing. Yes, it's easy for the brain to switch off while singing hymns, but words from hymns are often quoted in our fellowship meetings.
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Post by fixit on Sept 3, 2015 21:08:45 GMT -5
Ross, will you give us an update on your thinking when you've had a change to consider the link I posted?
You claimed that God called his son God, but scriptural backing for your claim is pretty dubious.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 0:42:45 GMT -5
The word "divine" features in our hymn book more than 30 times. Have you ever sung this one Fred? God’s own way abides the same In every age and clime. There is but one true saving name: The name of Christ divine. I think you misread me fixit. I was not astonished because I did not believe it, but rather I had never heard it so explicitly in any preaching from the platform. Concerning the singing of hymns, I believe not a lot of thought goes into analysing the meaning of the words as we sing. i have heard many a time that we need to read our hymns as we sing them and that God will give the increase to there meaning
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 0:45:18 GMT -5
Ross, will you give us an update on your thinking when you've had a change to consider the link I posted? You claimed that God called his son God, but scriptural backing for your claim is pretty dubious. 1) God (the Christ/Son) in Old Testament AND Jesus the Son of Man and the Son of God are ONE the Same Supreme Being= God.God the Son/Christ, who incarnated/begotten the Son of God and the Son of Man/Jesus. God/LORD the Son in the Old Testament and the Son of man/Jesus in the New Testament is ONE and the SAME person. God the Father and the Son are two separate Beings but ONE in Unity, and Spirit. Jesus Christ the Emmanuel which is being interpreted God (the Son) with us.www.jesus-is-lord.com/jesusgd2.htm2) Matthew Henry, from blueletterbible.com on Hebrew 1:8-12. God the Father called the Son "God and LORD." Our Almighty God/Elohim= Plural 1) The Most High God the Father, 2) God/Christ the Almighty, 3) God the Holy Spirit. 2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/thread/21/jesus-christ-god-son-incarnatedi am really really interested in what God wanted us to call His Son
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 5:18:27 GMT -5
Ross, will you give us an update on your thinking when you've had a change to consider the link I posted? You claimed that God called his son God, but scriptural backing for your claim is pretty dubious. 1) God (the Christ/Son) in Old Testament AND Jesus the Son of Man and the Son of God are ONE the Same Supreme Being= God.God the Son/Christ, who incarnated/begotten the Son of God and the Son of Man/Jesus. God/LORD the Son in the Old Testament and the Son of man/Jesus in the New Testament is ONE and the SAME person. God the Father and the Son are two separate Beings but ONE in Unity, and Spirit. Jesus Christ the Emmanuel which is being interpreted God (the Son) with us.www.jesus-is-lord.com/jesusgd2.htm2) Matthew Henry, from blueletterbible.com on Hebrew 1:8-12. God the Father called the Son "God and LORD." Our Almighty God/Elohim= Plural 1) The Most High God the Father, 2) God/Christ the Almighty, 3) God the Holy Spirit. 2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/thread/21/jesus-christ-god-son-incarnatedMathan, I appreciate your zeal! But, the term "God" in the bible isn't one that applies to the Father (Jehovah) alone. ELOHIM literally means "Mighty Ones" and is usually translated as GOD. But it can also refer to Angels and men (including Jesus). For instance, in Exodus 21:6 it reads, "...then his master shall bring him to the ELOHIM and shall bring him to the door, etc. etc." in this verse the ELOHIM are the elders or judges of Israel. In Psalm 82:1 and 6 we read, "God presides in the great assembly. He judges among the gids (human judges). How long will you (human judges) judge unjustly, and show partiality to the wicked? I said, 'You are gods, all of you are sons of the Most High.'" When the Jews accused Jesus of claiming equality to God, he denied the accusation by quoting this verse! His point was 'In the OT men were called gods, or ELOHIM. I'm only claiming to be the Son of God as the passage stipulates. So, what's your problem?" Basically, you are believing the same as the Pharisees. But, you have the clear record of what Jesus actually meant. I'm not calling you a Oharisee, because I know you aren't! I know you are sincere, and I love that about you. But, in this case you are making the same assumption that the Pharisees did. We have a problem between the Hebrew and English. Unfortunately people throw the word GOD around without understanding how it was used in the OT.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 6:29:10 GMT -5
Mathan, I appreciate your zeal! But, the term "God" in the bible isn't one that applies to the Father (Jehovah) alone. ELOHIM literally means "Mighty Ones" and is usually translated as GOD. But it can also refer to Angels and men (including Jesus). For instance, in Exodus 21:6 it reads, "...then his master shall bring him to the ELOHIM and shall bring him to the door, etc. etc." in this verse the ELOHIM are the elders or judges of Israel. In Psalm 82:1 and 6 we read, "God presides in the great assembly. He judges among the gids (human judges). How long will you (human judges) judge unjustly, and show partiality to the wicked? I said, 'You are gods, all of you are sons of the Most High.'" When the Jews accused Jesus of claiming equality to God, he denied the accusation by quoting this verse! His point was 'In the OT men were called gods, or ELOHIM. I'm only claiming to be the Son of God as the passage stipulates. So, what's your problem?" Basically, you are believing the same as the Pharisees. But, you have the clear record of what Jesus actually meant. I'm not calling you a Oharisee, because I know you aren't! I know you are sincere, and I love that about you. But, in this case you are making the same assumption that the Pharisees did. We have a problem between the Hebrew and English. Unfortunately people throw the word GOD around without understanding how it was used in the OT. Hebrews 1:8 and 9 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” It's pretty obvious that the Father is not talking about angels, men or judges in this context! Isaiah 9:6 - it is clear without a doubt the Hebrew word that is being used for Mighty God. The Son was to be named "God with us", but that doesn't make him God himself, any more than Joshua (ofJericho) was God (since Joshua means "Jehoavah/Savior." His NAME was to be called Counselor, Wonderful, ect. Jesus, as God's son carried His name, just like I carry my father's name. See John 5:43. All the titles of God can be applied to Jesus. As Israel's King, ruling on God's behalf, Jesus can carry the name of God. If you find fault with my logic, how do you interpret Exodus 4:16? There are also many instances in the bible where angels appear as Jehovah. They clearly are not Him, but are identified as God because they are standing in the position of God (as His spiokes-person.) Interestingly enough, in Matthew 8:5-13 these truths are explained by the Centurion. The key verse for properly understanding this concept is Matthew 8:9, " For I am also a man under authority..." He understood that Jesus was under God's authority, and that authority was being used over others, but via God's Authority.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Sept 4, 2015 7:05:14 GMT -5
I think you misread me fixit. I was not astonished because I did not believe it, but rather I had never heard it so explicitly in any preaching from the platform. Concerning the singing of hymns, I believe not a lot of thought goes into analysing the meaning of the words as we sing. i have heard many a time that we need to read our hymns as we sing them and that God will give the increase to there meaning A lot of the hymns do have a very good presentation of the gospel and Biblical truth in them ... but then a lot of them weren't written by the F&W, which makes that last statement of Virgo's a bit incongruous in ways I'm not sure how to express.
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Post by xyz on Sept 4, 2015 12:47:48 GMT -5
It is shocking that so many youngins now believe a different Gospel than was brought to us so long ago, and once taught in so many languages.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 4, 2015 17:58:54 GMT -5
i am really really interested in what God wanted us to call His Son 1) The FATHER's True Hebrew Name is:written..........YHVH spoken...….....YAHUAH pronounced....YAH-OO'-AH 2) The SON's True Hebrew Name is:written..........Y'SHUAH spoken..........YAHU'SHUAH pronounced....YAH-OO'-SHOO-AH YAHU'SHUAH (or Y'SHUAH) is used often, in the (Old Testament) as well as in the official Jewish daily and festival prayer books, where it is generally translated as "Salvation" Our Savior name in Hebrew language is Y'SHUAH/Salvation means Emmauel=God with us. Jesus is an English name for Yeshua our Savior name in Hebrew. The name Jesus has NO Divine meaning of God with us.
This sacred name was gradually changed to "Je-Zeus Khristos" (Jesus Christ) by the pagan masses who converted and joined the originally Jewish Messianic Sect Christianity was born, with a mixture of pagan customs and traditions Constantine the Great, was a Zeus worshiper, who converted to Christianity which resulted in worshipers of the sun god, Zeus, entering into the Christian religion YAHU'SHUAH'S abbreviated form of Y'SHUAH became "Y'Zeus" or Je-Zeus which eventually became "Jesus" in English The correct name of the Messiah, YAHU'SHUAH,is the only name by which he was known to his disciples, though he has several titles such as Rabbi, Son of Man, Savior, Anointed, King of Kings Not even once did he ever hear himself addressed as "Jesus Christ" By William Willbur That's what one refers to as a quasi-scholarly explanation.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 22:06:21 GMT -5
i am really really interested in what God wanted us to call His Son 1) The FATHER's True Hebrew Name is:written..........YHVH spoken...….....YAHUAH pronounced....YAH-OO'-AH 2) The SON's True Hebrew Name is:written..........Y'SHUAH spoken..........YAHU'SHUAH pronounced....YAH-OO'-SHOO-AH YAHU'SHUAH (or Y'SHUAH) is used often, in the (Old Testament) as well as in the official Jewish daily and festival prayer books, where it is generally translated as "Salvation" Our Savior name in Hebrew language is Y'SHUAH/Salvation means Emmauel=God with us. Jesus is an English name for Yeshua our Savior name in Hebrew. The name Jesus has NO Divine meaning of God with us.
This sacred name was gradually changed to "Je-Zeus Khristos" (Jesus Christ) by the pagan masses who converted and joined the originally Jewish Messianic Sect Christianity was born, with a mixture of pagan customs and traditions Constantine the Great, was a Zeus worshiper, who converted to Christianity which resulted in worshipers of the sun god, Zeus, entering into the Christian religion YAHU'SHUAH'S abbreviated form of Y'SHUAH became "Y'Zeus" or Je-Zeus which eventually became "Jesus" in English The correct name of the Messiah, YAHU'SHUAH,is the only name by which he was known to his disciples, though he has several titles such as Rabbi, Son of Man, Savior, Anointed, King of Kings Not even once did he ever hear himself addressed as "Jesus Christ" By William Willbur so God wanted us to call Jesus all these things? maybe i show rephrase, what name did God want us to use in referring to Jesus?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 22:14:54 GMT -5
i have heard many a time that we need to read our hymns as we sing them and that God will give the increase to there meaning A lot of the hymns do have a very good presentation of the gospel and Biblical truth in them ... but then a lot of them weren't written by the F&W, which makes that last statement of Virgo's a bit incongruous in ways I'm not sure how to express. what sort of percentage would you say weren't by those in the fellowship?
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Post by faune on Sept 4, 2015 22:46:30 GMT -5
Times have changed but the Bible hasn't. Jesus is still referred to as the Son of God there. Times have changed but 'trinity folk' still can't understand when monotheistic 'Bible believing folk' state that Jesus is divine and is the Son of God..... they never will as long as their trinity doctrine fills their minds. I appreciate all who uphold simple truth, needing nothing outside the terminology that the inspired NT writers used. NT: The Son of God 46x . . . . God the Son. . . 0x go figure! p. s. It would be VERY interesting to know Barry's or at least someone else beside the 'Jesus is God/trinity person's' comments on statements Barry supposedly said at a convention ! Until then I won't be putting too much on what walker03 reposts from what our 'cult expert' e colman came up with! " Review005 ~ I agree that the termnology "Son of God" is used over 40 times within the N.T. and "God the Son" is not used one time within the N.T., but the concept that Jesus represented "God in the flesh" is surely conveyed within these many verses from both the O.T. and N.T. combined. Is this enough to prove the point of those who hold to the Trinity concept of the Godhead? Namely, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit ~ the same essence, but three different functions within the Godhead. Also, Jesus' last Great Commission to his disciples before his ascension was to baptized in the name of The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost and to make disciples of men. My question to you is why would Jesus do this, if there wasn't this unique relationship between the three symbolizing oneness? www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2028:16-20
bugman123.com/Bible/JesusIsGod.html
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Sept 4, 2015 23:53:42 GMT -5
A lot of the hymns do have a very good presentation of the gospel and Biblical truth in them ... but then a lot of them weren't written by the F&W, which makes that last statement of Virgo's a bit incongruous in ways I'm not sure how to express. what sort of percentage would you say weren't by those in the fellowship? I don't know - have never counted. But I do have a listing of all the hymns and their origins. Would be interesting to do a count. Are the F&W still using the Hymns Old & New from the 80s?
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Post by faune on Sept 4, 2015 23:54:52 GMT -5
Here's an excellent article listing regarding name usage found within the Bible and especially relating to Jesus' time on earth entitled "Christological Titles." This should help you understand the meanings of these names as they were applied to Jesus especially. catholic-resources.org/Bible/Christological_Titles.htm Christological Titles
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 5, 2015 1:10:10 GMT -5
i am really really interested in what God wanted us to call His Son <snippet> YAHU'SHUAH (or Y'SHUAH) is used often, in the (Old Testament) as well as in the official Jewish daily and festival prayer books, where it is generally translated as "Salvation" Our Savior name in Hebrew language is Y'SHUAH/Salvation means Emmauel=God with us. Jesus is an English name for Yeshua our Savior name in Hebrew. The name Jesus has NO Divine meaning of God with us.
This sacred name was gradually changed to "Je-Zeus Khristos" (Jesus Christ) by the pagan masses who converted and joined the originally Jewish Messianic Sect Christianity was born, with a mixture of pagan customs and traditions Constantine the Great, was a Zeus worshiper, who converted to Christianity which resulted in worshipers of the sun god, Zeus, entering into the Christian religion YAHU'SHUAH'S abbreviated form of Y'SHUAH became "Y'Zeus" or Je-Zeus which eventually became "Jesus" in English The correct name of the Messiah, YAHU'SHUAH,is the only name by which he was known to his disciples, though he has several titles such as Rabbi, Son of Man, Savior, Anointed, King of Kings Not even once did he ever hear himself addressed as "Jesus Christ" By William Willbur
Who is William Willbur that he is some kind of expert on this subject?
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Sept 5, 2015 2:56:16 GMT -5
what sort of percentage would you say weren't by those in the fellowship? I don't know - have never counted. But I do have a listing of all the hymns and their origins. Would be interesting to do a count. Are the F&W still using the Hymns Old & New from the 80s? Virgo, I haven't done a count yet, but if you have a hymn book nearby, it's easy to tell which ones are from the F&W - those with the copyright symbol and asterisk after them (Words only are copyrighted). From looking through the first few pages, it looks to be about 50/50. Those without the copyright at the end came from other hymn books/churches. Although it should also be noted that the words of some of the nonF&W hymns have been doctored from the original. I first discovered this when singing the same hymns in a different church. Example: When I survey the Wondrous Cross. The F&W have changed Verse 2 to say "Save in the cross of Christ, my Lord". The original said "Save in the cross of Christ, my God".
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Post by fixit on Sept 5, 2015 4:31:20 GMT -5
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Sept 5, 2015 5:45:17 GMT -5
Thanks, fixit! Great resource.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2015 11:29:42 GMT -5
The KJV reads as you quoted above from Philip 2:5-11, "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Most other versions would read "Let this mind be in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God THOUGHT THA EQUALITY WITH GOD WAS NOT SOMETHING TO BE GRASPED." In other words, Jesus did not think equality with God was something to: a) be attained, or b) something to 'hold onto.' My thought is this: either he was equal to God or not. That fact is, God cannot get better because He's already the best. He cannot make Himself lesser than what He already is, or else He would cease being God. So, there's something else going on here other than "God becoming a man." It says "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus." In other words, we are to do the same as Jesus did! We are not to think that 'equality with God' is something to be grasped. We are to humble ourselves, like Christ did, and become obedient to the Father.Regarding "Jesus Christ is worthy of our devotion and Worship! He is part of the Godhead, and He died for our sins." I agree that Jesus is worthy of our devotion and worship (in the sense 'worship' is translated in the URL I posted above.) However, he isn't part of a Godhead. And the Bible is clear on the fact that God cannot die. If He could die, then He's not God. "The wages of sin is death." God cannot sin, therefore God cannot die. Regarding the passage where Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I Am." I'll have to look further into that. I've always interpreted it two ways: 1) He was claiming that he existed before Abraham, or 2) He was claiming that he was the one who appeared to Abraham as Elohim (a Mighty One). I think both are true, but I'll look into this further. You wrote: We worship Elohim/God= the Father, Christ/Son and Holy Spirit NOT elohim/angels or elohim men. Well, I've pretty well outlined how ELOHIM is consistently used in the Bible. You can accept it or not. I personally only worship EL (in the singular), and acknowledge that angels and me are ELOHIM, or theophanies/represantives of God. I also worship Jesus as the representative of God, knowing that by worshipping him I'm NOT committing idolatry, but I'm worshipping God THROUGH Jesus Christ. ____________ Another thing to note on the passage of Phil. 2:5-11: look at the language carefully! Don't just focus on a few of the words. The text interprets itself if you let it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2015 11:32:30 GMT -5
The Son was to be named "God with us", but that doesn't make him God himself, any more than Joshua (ofJericho) was God (since Joshua means "Jehoavah/Savior." His NAME was to be called Counselor, Wonderful, ect. Jesus, as God's son carried His name, just like I carry my father's name. See John 5:43. All the titles of God can be applied to Jesus. As Israel's King, ruling on God's behalf, Jesus can carry the name of God. If you find fault with my logic, how do you interpret Exodus 4:16? There are also many instances in the bible where angels appear as Jehovah. They clearly are not Him, but are identified as God because they are standing in the position of God (as His spiokes-person.) Interestingly enough, in Matthew 8:5-13 these truths are explained by the Centurion. The key verse for properly understanding this concept is Matthew 8:9, " For I am also a man under authority..." He understood that Jesus was under God's authority, and that authority was being used over others, but via God's Authority. I wonder why you did not quote the whole verse Nightshift instead of putting etc where it calls Jesus mighty God? It changes it a lot when you add the rest. Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Hi Mary, I don't run from facts or bible verses. I didn't quote it when it says his name shall be Mighty God, because I've already explained what MIGHTY GOD means. It means ELOHIM, or Mighty One, and is CONSISTENTLY used in the Bible to mean GOD, ANGELS, MEN, JUDGES and ANYONE who represents the Father. The term MIGHTY GOD is very applicable to Jesus.
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