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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2015 22:07:38 GMT -5
Quote - "Surely you remember how long ago you were 'young'. We don't need a month and a year, just an approximate decade would like do. I know that in the 50', 60's and early 70's when I was still involved in the group, there was never any word of where the group started, who was involved in the early formation etc. I didn't know anything about it until I came here in 2010 and it was a complete surprise to me. So if the workers told you this when you were young, approximately what decade were you 'young'?" We absorbed lots of that Cooney stuff from when we were kids. No-one wanted to talk about the sad guy - but then they did talk about it to me, one to one. Can't tell how old I was. Probably in my early teens.
It's just an excuse really. Sometimes I talk politics with people and they will ask me, "Where did you read THAT?" and I will say "Oh, it was in the Australian" or I name a columnist. "No self respecting fish would be wrapped in that paper!" or "No-one reads that jerk!" Even though I am quoting factual material, not necessarily opinion.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 26, 2015 23:18:09 GMT -5
Quote - "Surely you remember how long ago you were 'young'. We don't need a month and a year, just an approximate decade would like do. I know that in the 50', 60's and early 70's when I was still involved in the group, there was never any word of where the group started, who was involved in the early formation etc. I didn't know anything about it until I came here in 2010 and it was a complete surprise to me. So if the workers told you this when you were young, approximately what decade were you 'young'?" We absorbed lots of that Cooney stuff from when we were kids. No-one wanted to talk about the sad guy - but then they did talk about it to me, one to one. Can't tell how old I was. Probably in my early teens.
So, I think that we are finally getting to the truth of what you were told when you asked those "Questions." You were just a kid listening in to conversations. It is like snow said, there was never any word of where the group started, who was involved in the early formation etc. until basically close to when Doug Parker wrote the Secret Sect and the book was widely circulated.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2015 23:41:51 GMT -5
That's not strictly true Dmmichgood. Lots knew about that early stuff. I grew up with people who knew these guys.
But like these old people, I don't like answering the questions if I perceive the questioner is looking for excuse.
My cartoon sums it up perfectly.
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Post by snow on Jul 27, 2015 0:03:21 GMT -5
Bert it sounds as though you had a very different experience than I did. I never knew any of the older workers. What I've always wondered though is why my parents or grandparents didn't talk about it. They must have known because they knew some of the earliest workers. My grandfather professed in 1915 and my mom and dad in the mid 20's so they must have known? I will never know now because they are all gone, but it does make me wonder.
You did a cartoon! Yay! Missed your cartoons. Don't always agree with them lol,,, but I like them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 0:10:39 GMT -5
Two ways of looking at it - have you EVER heard Workers freely talk about troubles in the church? Rarely - only if push comes to shove.
Secondly, assuming there was no 2x2 church anywhere. I start preaching the Gospel today, July 2015, a brand new church. Would I want people to learn about me? Of course not. I will tell people "this comes from the bible. I didn't 'start' anything." But you know some will say "Oh, he or she belongs to those Bertists. They started about 2015! They aren't from the bible at all."
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 27, 2015 1:28:05 GMT -5
That's not strictly true Dmmichgood. Lots knew about that early stuff. I grew up with people who knew these guys.
But like these old people, I don't like answering the questions if I perceive the questioner is looking for excuse.
My cartoon sums it up perfectly. Hey Bert, are you admitting to telling fibs ? Wow ! You say lots knew about the early stuff, well that may have been the case for some, but I would not go so far as to say "lots knew", unless of course they knew, then conveniently, forgot when questioned. As I have said before, even those that were in Ireland when Irvine was still preaching, didn't pass that information on to the next generation when they came out to Australia.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 1:34:38 GMT -5
I think they did. Only they don't go around saying "Irvine started the truth" because Irvine didn't start the truth. In fact, Irvine didn't even STAY in the truth - he was just a freelancer who, like Diotrophes, wanted the pre- eminence amongst them. There's the difference.
nb do you think Irvine started the Exe movement? Sure sounds like it, going by how often his name is mentioned by them.
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Post by fred on Jul 27, 2015 2:12:32 GMT -5
I think they did. Only they don't go around saying "Irvine started the truth" because Irvine didn't start the truth. In fact, Irvine didn't even STAY in the truth - he was just a freelancer who, like Diotrophes, wanted the pre- eminence amongst them. There's the difference.
nb do you think Irvine started the Exe movement? Sure sounds like it, going by how often his name is mentioned by them. Bert seems like you live in southern parts where Cooney ended up, which may explain why you heard somewhat about him. I didn't grow up in that area and I think I can speak for my contempories when I say we never heard of Cooney or the term Cooneyites. I came across the term when I left home and when I asked someone who ought have known they were quite vague saying they didn't know much about him other than he was a worker who 'went bad', and that we weren't Cooneyites. I was over 50yrs old before I got to Irvine's name (online), but the beginnings never concerned me as I believe I had 'smelled a rat' long before. By this time I'd had some experiences with the ministry which destroyed a fair bit of trust.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 27, 2015 2:41:23 GMT -5
I think they did. Only they don't go around saying "Irvine started the truth" because Irvine didn't start the truth. In fact, Irvine didn't even STAY in the truth - he was just a freelancer who, like Diotrophes, wanted the pre- eminence amongst them. There's the difference.
nb do you think Irvine started the Exe movement? Sure sounds like it, going by how often his name is mentioned by them. Bert, do you have any relatives from Ireland, that came to Australia in the early years ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 27, 2015 2:47:15 GMT -5
I think they did. Only they don't go around saying "Irvine started the truth" because Irvine didn't start the truth. In fact, Irvine didn't even STAY in the truth - he was just a freelancer who, like Diotrophes, wanted the pre- eminence amongst them. There's the difference.
nb do you think Irvine started the Exe movement? Sure sounds like it, going by how often his name is mentioned by them. Bert seems like you live in southern parts where Cooney ended up, which may explain why you heard somewhat about him. I didn't grow up in that area and I think I can speak for my contempories when I say we never heard of Cooney or the term Cooneyites. I came across the term when I left home and when I asked someone who ought have known they were quite vague saying they didn't know much about him other than he was a worker who 'went bad', and that we weren't Cooneyites. I was over 50yrs old before I got to Irvine's name (online), but the beginnings never concerned me as I believe I had 'smelled a rat' long before. By this time I'd had some experiences with the ministry which destroyed a fair bit of trust. I agree Fred, my great great, grandmother professed in the Northern Rivers area of NSW in about 1912, my grandmother who is 101 and still alive, never ever mentioned Cooney or Irvine, the first time I was aware of the name Cooney was in Victoria, when I was young (late 70's) when we were in an area where there were still people following Cooney.
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Post by fixit on Jul 27, 2015 5:00:45 GMT -5
Two ways of looking at it - have you EVER heard Workers freely talk about troubles in the church? Rarely - only if push comes to shove. Secondly, assuming there was no 2x2 church anywhere. I start preaching the Gospel today, July 2015, a brand new church. Would I want people to learn about me? Of course not. I will tell people "this comes from the bible. I didn't 'start' anything." But you know some will say "Oh, he or she belongs to those Bertists. They started about 2015! They aren't from the bible at all." I came close to "liking" this post Bert. I agree there was no need to talk about William Irvine unless people asked. Also, workers wouldn't have wanted to be known as founders. And they wouldn't want future generations glorifying the history or the early workers. They were right to point people back to the shores of Galilee. However, they should never have lied about the history. That did no one any good.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 27, 2015 7:49:49 GMT -5
On the other hand, the preachers of many Christian churches talk freely in sermons about their beginnings. Many churches hold "What We Believe" classes for those who want to know more about the church and its beliefs, in which they review why, how, when, where and by whom is was started.
I attended one of these for the Christian Church and was much impressed. I came away wondering why on earth the workers didnt make their startup part of their sermons and tell it in gospel meetings by way of introducing themselves and their beliefs.
When someone wants to sell something or persuade people to do something, it's pretty normal or usual to first tell how, when, where, why and by whom it started and then go on to tell about it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 7:56:10 GMT -5
I'm glad you sorted that one out.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 8:34:13 GMT -5
Quote - "Bert, do you have any relatives from Ireland, that came to Australia in the early years ?"
We have relatives from all over the world. Yes, even Ireland - strong Irish actually.
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Post by jondough on Jul 27, 2015 8:45:41 GMT -5
On the other hand, the preachers of many Christian churches talk freely in sermons about their beginnings. Many churches hold "What We Believe" classes for those who want to know more about the church and its beliefs, in which they review why, how, when, where and by whom is was started. I attended one of these for the Christian Church and was much impressed. I came away wondering why on earth the workers didnt make their startup part of their sermons and tell it in gospel meetings by way of introducing themselves and their beliefs. When someone wants to sell something or persuade people to do something, it's pretty normal or usual to first tell how, when, where, why and by whom it started and then go on to tell about it. I agree with this. I embrace our history, and Like I've said, so would have everyone else had it been told. I think the reason it can't be told is due to the exlusivity doctrine that so many beleive. I asked the question on another thread......Since its common knoweldge amongst the Friends that "Truth" was brought to the USA in 1905, was everyone in the USA doomed to Hell prior to 1905? I got one answer by Wally, and he just said that this was pretty much the way it was. I'm surprised that more Friends don't ask the same question.
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Post by jondough on Jul 27, 2015 8:52:50 GMT -5
Read the very beginning of our New Testament. Mat 1:1...The entire first chapter just goes over the Genioligy - connecting Christ back to David, and talks about the connection all the way back to Abraham.
In light of this, why would we not just be honest with our own history.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 27, 2015 10:18:59 GMT -5
I asked the question on another thread......Since its common knoweldge amongst the Friends that "Truth" was brought to the USA in 1905, was everyone in the USA doomed to Hell prior to 1905? I got one answer by Wally, and he just said that this was pretty much the way it was. I'm surprised that more Friends don't ask the same question. They do - it's a common question many have asked and received no satisfactory answer. And they left meetings. From the "Why We Left" life stories written by the exes on TLC WebsiteTom Schroeder: I often wondered how come the workers never came to this country on the Mayflower in 1620? They could have been in on the ground floor. After all, people came to this country for religious freedom and all through the civil war years from 1620 to 1903 almost 300 years. So from the time the Mayflower landed on the shores of America in 1620, it would be 283 years before any workers ever came over here. Where were they hiding all those years? Well, come to find out, there were no workers anywhere in the whole world during those years. Then several years later, Frank Porter was preaching at special meeting that some people are saying that some man started our religion. He said that if some man would have started our religion, it would have fallen apart a long time ago—and to get that into your head! Yes, the workers can look you right in the eye and deny!.
Fay Richter: I am grateful for a member of this list who shared with my husband and me the information about William Irvine. That information was not well received by my husband (whose brother is an overseer) and resulted in that person being told he would be welcome at our house in the future, but religion would never be discussed again. It simply confirmed for me what I had long wondered... ie. why there were no "professing friends" recorded in history - surely if this religion had been founded by Jesus, there would have been many seeking religious freedom in England who would have arrived here on the Mayflower -but the only "Friends" who came were Quakers. I owe a debt to my children also, because in trying to answer their questions about the "Truth", I was forced to acknowledge that I did not agree with or accept the unwritten doctrine I had been rebelling against for most of my adult life.
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Post by jondough on Jul 27, 2015 10:54:44 GMT -5
Nathan,
Of course there were saved ones prior to William Irvine. You are making my point. You have picked out two other Religious groups that you claim as your own. One for sure is still around, and you no longer claim them. You only claim them prior to a certain date. Go figure...
The point is, there ARE many others that follow Jesus besides those in our little family tree/Worker Tree, or whatever you want to call it, from WI down, that are a part of "The great multitude". I'm sure there are people in the two groups you claim as your own that are a part of them as well. Fortunately it's not for us to decide. This is why Jesus so wisely told us NOT to judge. But to claim we are the only ones is going against this command of Jesus. This is Judgment at its worst. You have judged everyone else to Hell. You have basically compared them to how you do things, and claim that they are going to Hell because they don't do them like you. Yeah yeah yeah..... I know....you are comparing them to how they did things in the bible....don't get me started. It's how we/you interpret how they did things in the bible....so easy to interpret it to fit our own beliefs. Either way, you're judging them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 11:00:57 GMT -5
I never heard anything about W. I. until I found this board. My parents were very honest with us growing up. They were not worker worshipers. They acknowledged that workers and friends were fallible. I never once heard the name W.I. I don't believe my parents knew anything about the beginning of Truth. I grew up seeing pictures of many of the first workers. Not understanding that that was the very beginning of "Truth".
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 27, 2015 11:08:06 GMT -5
I agree with this. I embrace our history, and Like I've said, so would have everyone else had it been told. I think the reason it can't be told is due to the exlusivity doctrine that so many beleive. I asked the question on another thread......Since its common knoweldge amongst the Friends that "Truth" was brought to the USA in 1905, was everyone in the USA doomed to Hell prior to 1905? I got one answer by Wally, and he just said that this was pretty much the way it was. I'm surprised that more Friends don't ask the same question. I asked that question before I was a teenager, maybe even before I professed. It seems like I always knew we in the fellowship didn't know if there were an unbroken line of workers all the way back to Christ. It wasn't an issue, which is why reading The Secret Sect when it was hot off the press had basically no effect on me. It's not up to man to judge the salvation of another so what was in book simply didn't matter.
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Post by jondough on Jul 27, 2015 11:16:19 GMT -5
Nathan, Of course there were saved ones prior to William Irvine. You are making my point. You have picked out two other Religious groups that you claim as your own. One for sure is still around, and you no longer claim them. You only claim them prior to a certain date. Go figure... ~~ In another post I posted to you... I mentioned mostly about Vaudois/Waldenses because they're the one I want to concentrate on! but there are many others like them also. The current Waldensians church today is an EX-waldensian from 15th century who now are another Protestant denomination. They are NOT the same original or their forefathers in the 1st century. They are like Edward Cooney's group/followers. He departed/excommunicated from the group in 1928. The point is, there ARE many others that follow Jesus besides those in our little family tree/Worker Tree, or whatever you want to call it, from WI down, that are a part of "The great multitude". I'm sure there are people in the two groups you claim as your own that are a part of them as well. Fortunately it's not for us to decide. This is why Jesus so wisely told us NOT to judge. But to claim we are the only ones is going against this command of Jesus. This is Judgment at its worst. You have judged everyone else to Hell. You have basically compared them to how you do things, and claim that they are going to Hell because they don't do them like you. Yeah yeah yeah..... I know....you are comparing them to how they did things in the bible....don't get me started. It's how we/you interpret how they did things in the bible....so easy to interpret it to fit our own beliefs. Either way, you're judging them. ~~ Jesus said "judge with righteous judgment"... "If the blind leads the blind BOTH shall fall into the ditch." John the wrote in I John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Jesus warned in Matthew 7:13-15 " Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
You and I better know what we are doing! We don't want to point people to go into the ditch.
You should never mistake discernment of what is good for yourself as a ticket to judge others. Again, we can always find justification for anything we want to do including judging other which is clearly spoken against by Jesus and others in the bible.
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Post by jondough on Jul 27, 2015 11:37:04 GMT -5
Pointing others to follow Jesus Truth and Way is NOT judging ANYONE but it's our responsibility to the world... What people do with it, is up to them. They will live with their decision and choices in the end. Do all we can to help others and to point them in the right direction. Paul wrote "Follow me as I follow Christ."... This is what I am doing to inform, educate, and warn others about it. OK good. I had posted not to judge others, then you posted some scripture about discernment for yourself - not sure why. I've seen people use this scripture as a ticket to judge others. Keep pointing them to Jesus Nathan. That is who you should be pointing to. Nice job.
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Post by jondough on Jul 27, 2015 12:50:04 GMT -5
OK good. I had posted not to judge others, then you posted some scripture about discernment for yourself - not sure why. I've seen people use this scripture as a ticket to judge others. Keep pointing them to Jesus Nathan. That is who you should be pointing to. Nice job. Thanks, that's all the friends and workers can do and should do.... Point others to follow Jesus Truth and Way... "Christ must increase and I must decrease." and let the people decide and make their own choices, then in the end nobody can use any excuses to find fault with us.Not just "Friends and Workers". Everyone should be pointing to Jesus. Hopefully that's what you meant.
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Post by hberry on Jul 27, 2015 13:11:22 GMT -5
Thanks, that's all the friends and workers can do and should do.... Point others to follow Jesus Truth and Way... "Christ must increase and I must decrease." and let the people decide and make their own choices, then in the end nobody can use any excuses to find fault with us. Not just "Friends and Workers". Everyone should be pointing to Jesus. Hopefully that's what you meant. That's what I love about my church: the pastors all point to Christ, and just to Christ, and that keeps the congregation centered on Christ alone for their salvation. I've learned some wonderful new hymns too which exalt Christ. We're having a hymn sing at our house Friday night....come on up if you can JD!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 13:19:39 GMT -5
That's what I love about my church: the pastors all point to Christ, and just to Christ, and that keeps the congregation centered on Christ alone for their salvation. I've learned some wonderful new hymns too which exalt Christ. We're having a hymn sing at our house Friday night....come on up if you can JD! Sure wish I could, ma'am! Sounds very enjoyable and I know everyone will find it profitable in spirit!
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Post by hberry on Jul 27, 2015 13:25:11 GMT -5
That's what I love about my church: the pastors all point to Christ, and just to Christ, and that keeps the congregation centered on Christ alone for their salvation. I've learned some wonderful new hymns too which exalt Christ. We're having a hymn sing at our house Friday night....come on up if you can JD! Sure wish I could, ma'am! Sounds very enjoyable and I know everyone will find it profitable in spirit!You'll be there in thought I know. Wish you could come.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 27, 2015 13:57:36 GMT -5
I agree with this. I embrace our history, and Like I've said, so would have everyone else had it been told. I think the reason it can't be told is due to the exlusivity doctrine that so many beleive. I asked the question on another thread...... Since its common knoweldge amongst the Friends that "Truth" was brought to the USA in 1905, was everyone in the USA doomed to Hell prior to 1905? I got one answer by Wally, and he just said that this was pretty much the way it was. I'm surprised that more Friends don't ask the same question. I asked that question before I was a teenager, maybe even before I professed. It seems like I always knew we in the fellowship didn't know if there were an unbroken line of workers all the way back to Christ. It wasn't an issue, which is why reading The Secret Sect when it was hot off the press had basically no effect on me. It's not up to man to judge the salvation of another so what was in book simply didn't matter. Jesse, did you know before you was a teenager that the "Truth" was brought to the USA in 1905" or was it that you also wondered, as many of us did, if everyone who wasn't in the **TRUTH** were doomed to Hell?
Because I'm sure many of us wondered if those outside the **TRUTH**were "saved" before we ever knew that the "Truth was brought to the USA in 1905"
They are two different questions & not dependent on one another.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 27, 2015 14:12:58 GMT -5
I asked that question before I was a teenager, maybe even before I professed. It seems like I always knew we in the fellowship didn't know if there were an unbroken line of workers all the way back to Christ. It wasn't an issue, which is why reading The Secret Sect when it was hot off the press had basically no effect on me. It's not up to man to judge the salvation of another so what was in book simply didn't matter. Jesse, did you know before you was a teenager that the "Truth" was brought to the USA in 1905" or was it that you also wondered, as many of us did, if everyone who wasn't in the **TRUTH** were doomed to Hell?
Because I'm sure many of us wondered if those outside the **TRUTH**were "saved" before we ever knew that the "Truth was brought to the USA in 1905"
They are two different questions & not dependent on one another.I knew the workers had come to the USA in the early 1900s, I knew that without asking questions. It was obvious from simply listening to conversations. My question was, "what about all the people who lived in the USA before the workers came?" The answer was that I was not to worry about those people, that anyone at any time could have a conversation with God and be saved, just like the thief on the cross. So I tried to not be someone who walks down the street and wonders about everyone's state of salvation. Like I recently posted I try to treat others as if they are just as saved as I think I am. That brings a lot of peace and freedom in interactions with others. I think that's how a Christian should live. My wife and I talked about that yesterday morning, and she agreed. And she lives it - which might be why the local Lutheran minister told her he considered her a "prayer warrior".
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