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Post by Mary on Jul 25, 2015 22:25:54 GMT -5
They went on a short mission to where there were no converts. Not to stay with converts? Again like evangelists.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 22:27:41 GMT -5
Quote - "So you believe non-marital sex in that clear cut Bert ?"
Yes, we are all under the penalty of death. This is why Jesus came. But having died for our sins, there is no more space for us to continue offending God.
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Post by Mary on Jul 25, 2015 22:28:36 GMT -5
Believing he was going around like Jesus did, did not make it so. Missionaries go out all the time.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 22:29:13 GMT -5
They went on a short mission to where there were no converts. Not to stay with converts? Again like evangelists. Not sure what you mean here. Certainly they went to many new places. But they also preached in places where there was a strong church presence. These men and women weren't only to find converts, but to feed those already of the flock. "Feed my sheep, and feed my lambs" Jesus said to Peter. In other words support the newly converted and the established Christian.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 22:34:05 GMT -5
They went on a short mission to where there were no converts. Not to stay with converts? Again like evangelists. it doesn't really say that as far as I can tell...
Luk_10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 25, 2015 22:44:37 GMT -5
Quote - "So you believe non-marital sex in that clear cut Bert ?" Yes, we are all under the penalty of death. This is why Jesus came. But having died for our sins, there is no more space for us to continue offending God.Well all I can say Bert, is I am glad you think its that clear cut, I do not believe that is how Jesus see's it, there are grey areas no matter how you look at it. Until you have been in the situation yourself you have no idea ! Also you didn't get back to me about how you feel you can discern what Jesus was thinking ? Do you feel only certain people can do that ?
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Post by fred on Jul 25, 2015 22:50:10 GMT -5
People say "where did Jesus say......?" and sometimes they are right. Jesus might not have said anything at all. But you can discern what he was thinking:
Recall the "woman of Samaria" - "you have had five husbands and he who you have now is not your husband" Censure? I believe so.
And this "He who is without sin let him first cast the stone at her." And people think you are a stone thrower for not accepting non-marital sex. What did He think of the adulterous woman? "Go and sin no more." Bert, how can we discern what Jesus was thinking ? If you are going to use the Bible to back that up, which Bible ? Jesus is way more than a Bible written by men ! By the way what has non-marital sex got to do with anything we are talking about ? Oh that all important little piece of paper. Two people in a long term committed monogamous relationship are in my books married and by law the defacto relationship confirms this. I am not sure that God is too worried by the absence of that piece of paper.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 22:52:54 GMT -5
Okay, certainly 'grey areas' are understandable, but some people RELY on grey areas, ie "I am going to have an affair because God understands my marital situation!"
Discerning Jesus' thoughts. Guess you have to love Jesus, and live as He did to best understand how He feels. In fact, you might be put in the very same situations.... When Jesus stooped down to write on the ground when the Jews accused that woman of adultery - what was He thinking? Offense? Hurt? Thinking of the Jew's own sin? Wanting them to see He came to atone for sin? Maybe all the above?
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Post by slowtosee on Jul 25, 2015 23:01:32 GMT -5
Bert, how can we discern what Jesus was thinking ? If you are going to use the Bible to back that up, which Bible ? Jesus is way more than a Bible written by men ! By the way what has non-marital sex got to do with anything we are talking about ? Oh that all important little piece of paper. Two people in a long term committed monogamous relationship are in my books married and by law the defacto relationship confirms this. I am not sure that God is too worried by the absence of that piece of paper. I wonder if Abraham and Sarah signed any papers before she went into his tent. Lots of people have all the correct paperwork done , but sure don't act lie they are married or committed to their legally wedded spouse. oh, oh, I don't know right now where my papers are, maybe better sleep outside or go to children's house till those papers show up again.Rotten luck, mice might have ate them, like thatold story of the guy that had no testimony as the mice had ate it. No papers... no marriage. Having said all that, I am a hypocrite in a way, as I believe marriage, church, state, self,whatever is a good thing. Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 23:04:44 GMT -5
Marriage is a contract between a couple and their society. Some societies don't have paper. But marriage means marriage - you have promised each other, and vowed to your society, that you are committed as a couple.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 23:21:53 GMT -5
we don't know exactly how they performed marriages in Abrahams time but surely there were witnesses to the act which would be the same as a marriage license today....
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Post by emy on Jul 25, 2015 23:40:51 GMT -5
Non-marital sex is involved in both cases I mentioned. The penalty for non-marital sex in olden times (and recent times too) was DEATH. So you believe non-marital sex in that clear cut Bert ? Is it not? It's either adultery or fornication -- or both.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 25, 2015 23:52:43 GMT -5
Bert the apostles did not have preassigned areas where they were told where to go and stay with existing followers. They were more like roaming evangelists who went from place to place preaching the Gospel occasionally stopping with the church if there are as one there. They were to take the Gospel into all the world. The workers are more like pastors over the existing flock except they change over every year or two. Do you really think that someone in a western country could even remotely have any idea or be able to copy something that took place 2,000 years ago in a country like Israel. I suppose if we had a bunch of itinerant preachers (about a thousand I figured) who all just went as they reckoned the spirit was leading them, then a lot would have made it to the sunny Greek isles in the Aegean. Somebody organized all that. We don't know who but we can guess - Apollos, Paul, Peter, James etc.. Lots of logistics and money involved too. And I am sure it's HERE that the spirit led this church.
This business of Jesus et al being spontaneous is a bit like the story of Jesus helping the materially poor - unsubstantiated and poorly thought through.
In answer to the question of the 2,000 years. One Worker said he was on a train, sitting next to a man of the cloth. This minister asked the Worker about his life and he said he went around like Jesus did, preaching (note - didn't say he went back to Jesus in an unbroken line!) and the minister said "Oh, but that's impossible!" "Well, I'm doing it!" replied the Worker. Except that he wasn't! Someone had to pay for that train ticket of his!
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Post by Mary on Jul 26, 2015 0:29:31 GMT -5
The workers have to belong to a church in order to be funded by their church the same as those they condemn.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2015 0:34:18 GMT -5
Quote - ""Well, I'm doing it!" replied the Worker.
Except that he wasn't! Someone had to pay for that train ticket of his!"
That's a non sequitor Dmmichgood. The train ticket was provided by his church. That's not the same as a minister taking a salary and owning his own home. The church in the NT provided for the preachers. He wasn't taking a train to enjoy Bondi Beach with his wife and kids for the day.
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Post by Mary on Jul 26, 2015 1:45:35 GMT -5
The money for the ministers plane ticket is also provided by his church members. Where do you think the money came from if it was not his church?
Getting money a different way does not alter the fact the workers are not homeless, penniless or going out in faith as the original apostles did. Your church is no different from any other church when it comes to money. Workers have credit cards and money at their disposal.
I see they've changed their stance on money. It used to be homeless and without purse. That is a fallacy so they changed it to not getting wages when the workers get provisions in lieu of wages. Nothing like Jesus sent the apostles.
What happened to the going out in faith and homeless like Jesus preaching?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2015 1:48:34 GMT -5
Quote - "What happened to the going out in faith and homeless like Jesus preaching?"
How did Jesus and Apostles do it? How do Workers do it differently? How does YOUR church do it?
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Post by Mary on Jul 26, 2015 1:55:32 GMT -5
They went village to village preaching and stayed where they could. They did not have prearranged accommodation. Jesus and apostles did not have bank accounts they could use when they wanted.
Our missionaries go out the same as the workers. Anyone who goes overseas has to give up their home.
Ministers are not missionaries. Ministers pastor the existing congregation. If the workers had the ministry set up as they did in the Bible then they wouldn't confuse these roles. Workers are supported by their church. Money donated by members the same as any pastor. Missionaries are different. They may or may not be supported by their church but a missionary organization if they want.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 26, 2015 1:59:19 GMT -5
Quote - ""Well, I'm doing it!" replied the Worker. Except that he wasn't! Someone had to pay for that train ticket of his!" That's a non sequitor Dmmichgood. The train ticket was provided by his church. That's not the same as a minister taking a salary and owning his own home. The church in the NT provided for the preachers.
He wasn't taking a train to enjoy Bondi Beach with his wife and kids for the day. That is just a matter of semantics, Bert! The results are the same!
Do you know what a non sequitor means Bert? The real "logical fallacy" is your last three lines!
PS:
some ministers do NOT own their own home they live in a parsonage. The Methodist minister in our town does.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 26, 2015 4:54:04 GMT -5
So you believe non-marital sex in that clear cut Bert ? Is it not? It's either adultery or fornication -- or both. What I meant Emy was, if a marriage breaks down because one partner cheats, has that person committed adultery as far as the workers/meetings are concerned ? If the partner left behind then goes on to find someone to help raise the children & be there for them when their father isn't is she committing adultery ? Why is divorce & re-marriage ok in some places & not others if there are no grey areas ?
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Post by jondough on Jul 26, 2015 10:52:08 GMT -5
Is it not? It's either adultery or fornication -- or both. What I meant Emy was, if a marriage breaks down because one partner cheats, has that person committed adultery as far as the workers/meetings are concerned ? If the partner left behind then goes on to find someone to help raise the children & be there for them when their father isn't is she committing adultery ? Why is divorce & re-marriage ok in some places & not others if there are no grey areas ? Ros, to be fair, d&r are never said to be ok - they are just dealt with differently in different areas. I'm pretty sure this is the case - not sure tho as I'm in an area where you lose your part and can't take the emblems. There is only one worker that I know about that ever encouraged re-marriage after divorce and he is no longer a factor. That is the infamous Leslie White.
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Post by jondough on Jul 26, 2015 10:56:35 GMT -5
Again, being honest........
Read Berts answer to WHAT he was told about our history.......very much the same type of answer we still get.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 26, 2015 13:19:41 GMT -5
Again, being honest........ Read Berts answer to WHAT he was told about our history.......very much the same type of answer we still get. Which of Bert's answers? I have been waiting & waiting & I haven't found any substantial statement yet.
I am serious.
Could you point out his post.
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Post by jondough on Jul 26, 2015 14:53:11 GMT -5
Again, being honest........ Read Berts answer to WHAT he was told about our history.......very much the same type of answer we still get. Which of Bert's answers? I have been waiting & waiting & I haven't found any substantial statement yet.
I am serious.
Could you point out his post.My point exactly
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 26, 2015 15:50:26 GMT -5
Presumably, many of the Apostles kept their homes and their wives and children stayed in them Workers do it quite differently to many of the initial Apostles. How would the married workers train and teach the single workers in the work? Would he/she comes and join them in their home?
From the Account about Ralph & Rene Beattie... Their first year in the work, Ralph was with Wilson McClung and Rene with Annie McClung. Also, a young man in his first year of the work preached with the Beatties. I think the account tells of other workers they brought along/trained...I didnt read it all the way through, but I seem to recollect at least one sister worker they trained. I have also seen workers list showing married worker couples split up and preaching with other companions at times.
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Post by Mary on Jul 26, 2015 16:34:21 GMT -5
Missionaries do it all the time Nathan. My neighbors were brought up Missionary kids so are our elders, living in countries like New Guinea and the Philippines. The kids are well adjusted kids and now grown up with children of their own.
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Post by snow on Jul 26, 2015 17:19:05 GMT -5
Sorry, can't remember when. And I can't remember WHO either ... think we grew up with all the Edward Cooney problems and I might have thought HE was involved. That was a troubling thought because he was one odd and out of place character.
But don't you think a better question to post is when did we, for the first time in our lives, come to know Christ? Surely you remember how long ago you were 'young'. We don't need a month and a year, just an approximate decade would like do. I know that in the 50', 60's and early 70's when I was still involved in the group, there was never any word of where the group started, who was involved in the early formation etc. I didn't know anything about it until I came here in 2010 and it was a complete surprise to me. So if the workers told you this when you were young, approximately what decade were you 'young'?
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 26, 2015 21:54:27 GMT -5
When Bill & Maggie went to preach Australia around 1913-14, they took their daughter with them, and she stayed with them. May is listed on the ship manifest with them.
After WmI was kicked out in 1914, the married workers kept their children with them--like the Beatties, Christies, etc.
WmI was the one who insisted married couples could be in the work--provided they left their children with someone else.
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