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Post by jondough on Aug 5, 2015 11:08:42 GMT -5
JD, When I speak on those verses I encourage our friends in the roles they have! I am glad as I'm sure you are for friends who feed and help you also! I'm glad for men with a home where the church gathers, men (and women) who pastor and teach others. For all from the youngest and newest convert who contribute to the perfecting of the saints, work of the ministry and who edify the body of Christ. The saints/friends who do this have no misapprehension that they are apostles! But they have a very needed and essential part in the body of Christ! Some workers are 'real evangelists', others 'real teachers', others excellent at pastoring and caring for the folk/friends. From the Scripture we see that it wasn't that Paul was a teacher, Peter a Prophet, Silas a Pastor, Barnabas an evangelist etc. They were all used of God as required, but certainly each had their personal strengths and no doubts weaknesses also. I'm glad that you encourage the Friends in these roles. I feel like the Friends should be encouraged more in them. Maybe not all Workers understand them in the same way you do, therefore neither do the Friends. I know that many of the Friends feel like they need to keep their place, and that the filling of any of these roles would be stepping out of place/over their boundaries. I also know of some Workers that feel so inadequate in their place. Maybe not good speakers, or whatever. And, I know its ok to feel inadequate, we all do, but....I'm wondering if maybe what makes them feel so inadequate is because they feel they are responsible for all these roles, when really, like you said in your post, they aren't fit for some of them. They may possibly be feeling overwhelmed by trying to do so, even get discouraged to the point of quitting. If they understood it the way you do, they wouldn't feel so overwhelmed, understanding the talents they have been given, and where their place is. Everyone understanding their place, and even realizing that they too can help can really help lighten the load on those trying to carry the whole thing.
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Post by jondough on Aug 5, 2015 12:26:19 GMT -5
JD, I appreciate our Sunday morning meetings! Sharing in the richness of what others have to share from their reading and feeding during the week! I get help and enter into what my spiritual brothers and sisters have got from God in their personal relationship with him. From the youngest to the oldest, each as God has enabled contributing to ' the perfecting of the saints, work of the ministry and who edify the body of Christ."Then that very important and such meaningful part of the meeting when we share in the emblems and in that I am taken back to our Lord's agony in Gethsemane and death at Calvary. Purpose and vows arise anew in me! I confess that at such times I've thought of others in the city/town who will have sat in a pew in a church building listening to one minister or priest preaching his sermon. I'm humbly grateful and appreciative for 'the way that has been opened unto me'! But I'm cool/relaxed of those who do prefer the church pew/one sermon way....each to his own and I hope they are proving the richness of God in that....but it ain't for me! If they feel that is deeper and richer than our Sunday morning meetings then they are in the right place for them! I agree with you. I personally have never tried other churches or fellowships. I'm sure there are others that are special, and like you said, good for others. I'm satisfied with what I have, and like you, REALLY appreciate our Sunday morning fellowship around the emblems. There is something special there that I value so much. As long as we are talking about "humans" , there will be imperfections, and things we wish we could change. I've said this in the past. Thats ok. It makes us appreciate what Christ has done for us even more. I think this is part of why Sunday morning meetings are so special. When we focus on the emblems (Christ) it makes us more thankful for what has been done for ME - and not focus on the wrong in our fellowship or others. Every church will have its imperfections. Hopefully no-one leaves trying to find one that doesn't because they WILL be disappointed.
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 5, 2015 19:41:42 GMT -5
The problem with the workers is that they do not have clearly defined roles. They started out as evangelists - a role which Edward Cooney wished to continue in but was put out for. The workers then changed from evangelists to that of pastors but still expect to maintain the role of evangelist. Mainstream churches are patterned on Ephesians 4, something that spoke very loud to me when I left meetings and started attending a church. In meetings there are workers and laity. We were told that the meetings are the nearest thing to the Bible but their church does not function like the NT church. Churches have clearly defined missionaries, evangelist, pastors and teachers. Review stated a few posts ago that these must be patterned on Matthew 10 yet he says in a recent post that those in meetings can fulfil these roles. I am yet to see the general professing people in meetings functioning in the role of pastor, evangelists etc as review wrote in his post. People in meeting are not allowed to become evangelists or missionaries or pastors. They have to become a worker. Note Eph 4 says, he gave some apostles etc. he does not say that some people carry all these but that some people have this and some people have that. These were clearly different people. However, someone might give up their role as missionary and become a pastor or change roles. Eph 4: 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: When Jesus left he said he would sent the Holy Spirit in his place. The believers now received the Holy Spirit and went everywhere preaching the word, it was not just left for the apostles. The Holy Spirit was given to all who believed not just the 12 who were with Jesus. All were equipped. Acts 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. 4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word. We were clearly told in meetings by workers not to talk to people about our beliefs but that we were to only invite people to meetings. It was the workers place to 'preach' to people. We were told not to cast our pearls before swine. The gap between workers and congregation was clearly defined and there were 2 categories. Workers were to spread the word and people were there to house and look after the workers and invite people to meetings. Ephesians 4 is alive and well in mainstream churches who have different roles for missionaries, evangelists, and pastors. A missionary leaves home and goes to a foreign land to preach. An evangelist travels around preaching, a pastor remains at home looking after the flock. The workers make the error in thinking that a pastor should live like a missionary. Jesus did not say a pastor should sell give up all and go out preaching. That is not a pastor's or minsters as some churches call them, role or calling. If the workers church functioned in the role of different ministries then there would be no room for them to criticise pastors or ministers who shepherd the existing flock. Workers were originally apostles or evangelists or missionaries, not pastors over existing congregation. The workers changed to being put over churches i.e. being pastors with unsuccessful attempts at evangelising on a Sunday while taking the role of pastor the rest of the week. A pastors role is not to roam around like an evangelist. Of course a missionary leaves home, a missionary is not a missionary if they stay home, they leave home and travel to another land. The role of elder and deacon is also clearly defined as are these other ministries in the church. Interesting that we heard about those in the early days who had left their churches because they were not satisfied and joined with the workers. What I notice was that there were very few who actually did this. Most did not join the workers which says that most were satisfied with the churches they were in and did not leave to join this new movement. The apostles and Jesus performed miracles. For a church to say they follow the NT pattern ministry they would have to also do these things. Great post Mary.
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hberry
Senior Member
Posts: 743
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Post by hberry on Aug 5, 2015 22:38:14 GMT -5
snip Every church will have its imperfections. Hopefully no-one leaves trying to find one that doesn't because they WILL be disappointed. I don't suppose too many (if any) people have left the fellowship looking for "the perfect church." I suspect there are many reasons for leaving the fellowship, but doctrine is one reason for leaving. My church isn't perfect, especially now that I attend, but I wasn't looking for perfection, just fellowship and clear teaching.
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Post by jondough on Aug 5, 2015 23:02:11 GMT -5
snip Every church will have its imperfections. Hopefully no-one leaves trying to find one that doesn't because they WILL be disappointed. I don't suppose too many (if any) people have left the fellowship looking for "the perfect church." I suspect there are many reasons for leaving the fellowship, but doctrine is one reason for leaving. My church isn't perfect, especially now that I attend, but I wasn't looking for perfection, just fellowship and clear teaching. Thanks Hberry. I understand. When you left, I don't know if you remember, but I mentioned to you that I will be curious what type of problems and such you would find when you went to your new one full time. I'm glad that you have found a fellowship that you are satisfied with, or at least feel more fulfilled. You have had the same great sprit about you when you were part of ours, and continue to have that same great spirit now. Thanks for always being so pleasent. JD
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Post by bubbles on Aug 6, 2015 3:32:48 GMT -5
JD, When I speak on those verses I encourage our friends in the roles they have! I am glad as I'm sure you are for friends who feed and help you also! I'm glad for men with a home where the church gathers, men (and women) who pastor and teach others. For all from the youngest and newest convert who contribute to the perfecting of the saints, work of the ministry and who edify the body of Christ. The saints/friends who do this have no misapprehension that they are apostles! But they have a very needed and essential part in the body of Christ! Some workers are 'real evangelists', others 'real teachers', others excellent at pastoring and caring for the folk/friends. From the Scripture we see that it wasn't that Paul was a teacher, Peter a Prophet, Silas a Pastor, Barnabas an evangelist etc. They were all used of God as required, but certainly each had their personal strengths and no doubts weaknesses also. I'm glad that you encourage the Friends in these roles. I feel like the Friends should be encouraged more in them. Maybe not all Workers understand them in the same way you do, therefore neither do the Friends. I know that many of the Friends feel like they need to keep their place, and that the filling of any of these roles would be stepping out of place/over their boundaries. I also know of some Workers that feel so inadequate in their place. Maybe not good speakers, or whatever. And, I know its ok to feel inadequate, we all do, but....I'm wondering if maybe what makes them feel so inadequate is because they feel they are responsible for all these roles, when really, like you said in your post, they aren't fit for some of them. They may possibly be feeling overwhelmed by trying to do so, even get discouraged to the point of quitting. If they understood it the way you do, they wouldn't feel so overwhelmed, understanding the talents they have been given, and where their place is. Everyone understanding their place, and even realizing that they too can help can really help lighten the load on those trying to carry the whole thing. Its one thing for god to anoint someone. It doesnt alter the fact that discipling is needed. Il throw this out. If you collected 100 friends and asked them what they felt their gifting/calling is and they told you. How would you react? Operating in gifting takes practice and having mentors that are not threatened by you. It also takes transparency and openess in humility. Not forgetting that gifts can be activated by anointings.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 6, 2015 4:19:09 GMT -5
I'm glad that you encourage the Friends in these roles. I feel like the Friends should be encouraged more in them. Maybe not all Workers understand them in the same way you do, therefore neither do the Friends. I know that many of the Friends feel like they need to keep their place, and that the filling of any of these roles would be stepping out of place/over their boundaries. I also know of some Workers that feel so inadequate in their place. Maybe not good speakers, or whatever. And, I know its ok to feel inadequate, we all do, but....I'm wondering if maybe what makes them feel so inadequate is because they feel they are responsible for all these roles, when really, like you said in your post, they aren't fit for some of them. They may possibly be feeling overwhelmed by trying to do so, even get discouraged to the point of quitting. If they understood it the way you do, they wouldn't feel so overwhelmed, understanding the talents they have been given, and where their place is. Everyone understanding their place, and even realizing that they too can help can really help lighten the load on those trying to carry the whole thing. Its one thing for god to anoint someone. It doesnt alter the fact that discipling is needed. Il throw this out. If you collected 100 friends and asked them what they felt their gifting/calling is and they told you. How would you react? Operating in gifting takes practice and having mentors that are not threatened by you. It also takes transparency and openess in humility. Not forgetting that gifts can be activated by anointings. Hiya bubbles I believe that all of Gods people have gifts, and all from the strongest to the weakest are important to God, and that the more we give we give our heart to God, the more we receive and become stronger and that only God can choose who's worthy. And I believe that we are stronger at some things than others, but I also believe that God can use us to do anything that he needs at that time. For instance, I don't think I would be a good speaker to a crowd, but I do know that i have gone into a situation scared but in complete faith and praying and believing what Jesus said. That the holy Ghost will teach you in that hour what you need to say. And God has given me a mouth. And I know I couldn't do it alone. And this definitely isn't my gift. And I can see the different strengths in different ways in the people within our meeting. But I also see that they are able for other things too. It's just some are stronger in one area than another. Like someone may be a great speaker, but they can also heal with the word of God. Have you noticed this in others too?
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Post by bubbles on Aug 6, 2015 6:43:54 GMT -5
Its one thing for god to anoint someone. It doesnt alter the fact that discipling is needed. Il throw this out. If you collected 100 friends and asked them what they felt their gifting/calling is and they told you. How would you react? Operating in gifting takes practice and having mentors that are not threatened by you. It also takes transparency and openess in humility. Not forgetting that gifts can be activated by anointings. Hiya bubbles I believe that all of Gods people have gifts, and all from the strongest to the weakest are important to God, and that the more we give we give our heart to God, the more we receive and become stronger and that only God can choose who's worthy. And I believe that we are stronger at some things than others, but I also believe that God can use us to do anything that he needs at that time. For instance, I don't think I would be a good speaker to a crowd, but I do know that i have gone into a situation scared but in complete faith and praying and believing what Jesus said. That the holy Ghost will teach you in that hour what you need to say. And God has given me a mouth. And I know I couldn't do it alone. And this definitely isn't my gift. And I can see the different strengths in different ways in the people within our meeting. But I also see that they are able for other things too. It's just some are stronger in one area than another. Like someone may be a great speaker, but they can also heal with the word of God. Have you noticed this in others too? Yes ive known people who ministered in all the spiritual gifts of the holy spirit. And also the gifts of Christ to the church. Which called an office. They each have specific anointings. Personally yes I experience similar to you. For example when someone close to me asks for prayer and the holy spirit will show me what is wrong maybe the cause then I ask them and they confirm it then we pray together in agreement and often the prayers are answered. As far as giftings or offices go I dont see any more important than the other I just see there is more responsiblity and accountability if you are called as a pastor for example. In the times where as you describe going onto a situation because you know the leading of the holy spirit. I have proved I can trust him which gives me confidence even tho I may be trembling inside or lets say have a full expectation for him to pull through but the circumstances look hopeless and there is no room for doubt. I do love watching him move no matter what it is. :)God uses mouths. Hands. Feet.
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hberry
Senior Member
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Post by hberry on Aug 6, 2015 10:09:17 GMT -5
I don't suppose too many (if any) people have left the fellowship looking for "the perfect church." I suspect there are many reasons for leaving the fellowship, but doctrine is one reason for leaving. My church isn't perfect, especially now that I attend, but I wasn't looking for perfection, just fellowship and clear teaching. Thanks Hberry. I understand. When you left, I don't know if you remember, but I mentioned to you that I will be curious what type of problems and such you would find when you went to your new one full time. I'm glad that you have found a fellowship that you are satisfied with, or at least feel more fulfilled. You have had the same great sprit about you when you were part of ours, and continue to have that same great spirit now. Thanks for always being so pleasent. JD I do remember your question and I figured when I had attended a year I would respond. However, I have attended for almost a year now and I have nothing to report. There are only about 120 who attend, so I have met everyone at this point. Because we meet for small groups as well as together as a body, you get to know the folks in your small group better than others, but the quarterly church-wide potlucks quarterly keep you in touch with everyone else socially. I don't see any evidence of cliques or dissension, and we've been invited to dinner with a number of folks. Most of the couples are young parents; hubby and I are some of the oldest who attend. We did have to learn a whole bunch of new hymns, however Hubby did complain about that a bit...he couldn't sing any of the songs at first. There are a few tunes we know with different words, so that was a nice kick start for us. There are a number of musicians in attendance and the singing is joyful. Besides piano, they sometimes have flute or violin; it's a nice addition. And sometimes we sing the last verse a capella when it's one of the grand old hymns: Nearer my God, Great is They Faithfulness, Blessed Assurance, etc. I have felt at home since the first, so it is a good fit for us. We hear a lot of scripture, and we like that. So far, there isn't anything I would change except that I wish it were closer to us: it's a 30 minute drive, but we drove that far for Sunday morning meeting. I would just like to be closer to the women of the church so I could more easily do things with them during the week. Most of the women are home schooling their children--but that isn't any requirement, just their choice. Whenever you meet with a group of people seeking to serve the Lord and serious about scripture, whether the fellowship or elsewhere, you are edified and encouraged in your walk. I oftentimes feel like the preacher has covered something I was thinking about during the week, and that assures me that God answers prayers. I love my church--just as you love yours--and that's wonderful. I'm thankful we can both say: "To God be the glory, great things He has done." (In an earlier post, when I said "my church isn't perfect" I meant that in reference to the body, the people: none of us are perfect--and me least of all. Thought maybe I should clarify that.)
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