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Post by Ross.Bowden on Aug 3, 2015 22:17:25 GMT -5
It seems that Jesus sent them out, and basically had them do what they needed to do to get the Good News spread throughout. They definitely did not have the privileges many have today making spreading the gospel easier - or at least less hardships involved with it (in most places). I don't believe that the hardships were Jesus's point. I believe it was more of...do what you have to do to spread the Good News. The "Good News" was the point. I think that was the reason for the first lesson amongst their own people, not taking a purse, etc....showing them that - if it comes to the point that you don't have these things, I'll take care of you. Just continue to spread the word, no matter what. When he sent them out later, he was more practical, and sent them with a purse, sword, etc. Today, our Workers and others are practical as well. They take a purse (money along) and other practical needs. I'm thankful for all of you that are willing to sacrifice all to continue to spread the Good News (Gospel). Leaving the things behind that YOU FEEL will only slow, or drag you down from accomplishing this mission. No matter what, you were willing, and you did what YOU KNEW to be right for YOU. I feel that is the very most important thing that no matter what anyone says, your heart was in the right place (hopefully) and you were willing to do what you feel needed to be done, and what YOUR calling was. All of us can be thankful that the Gospel (Good News) came to us at a price. A price that Christ, and many others have paid. I am thankful for all who have preached God's word down through the ages. For the Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers (Ephesians 4) who have faithfully taught and lived God's word in the past, present and the future. We owe a lot to them - nothing compared to what we owe Christ - but nevertheless they have faithfully taught the Word. Very early in Acts, it was clear that God would use many different kinds of people to spread the good news, from people he had personally appointed (the 12 apostles) through to the 7 appointed by the church in Acts 6 who also preached through to elders who preached and taught the word in their local cities and churches. The great commission was clearly not just to the Apostles, otherwise Stephen, Philip and many others would simply not have preached the word. And when the church was scattered after Stephen's death, the Apostles stayed in Jerusalem and a major church in Antioch came about. Many had wives and families, no doubt many retained homes, some worked for a living (eg Paul). No matter what their situation they followed Jesus and preached His word. And any gain they missed out on in this world, they counted for naught that they might gain Christ and bring Him to others. (Phil 3:8)
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Post by jondough on Aug 3, 2015 22:45:03 GMT -5
It seems that Jesus sent them out, and basically had them do what they needed to do to get the Good News spread throughout. They definitely did not have the privileges many have today making spreading the gospel easier - or at least less hardships involved with it (in most places). I don't believe that the hardships were Jesus's point. I believe it was more of...do what you have to do to spread the Good News. The "Good News" was the point. I think that was the reason for the first lesson amongst their own people, not taking a purse, etc....showing them that - if it comes to the point that you don't have these things, I'll take care of you. Just continue to spread the word, no matter what. When he sent them out later, he was more practical, and sent them with a purse, sword, etc. Today, our Workers and others are practical as well. They take a purse (money along) and other practical needs. I'm thankful for all of you that are willing to sacrifice all to continue to spread the Good News (Gospel). Leaving the things behind that YOU FEEL will only slow, or drag you down from accomplishing this mission. No matter what, you were willing, and you did what YOU KNEW to be right for YOU. I feel that is the very most important thing that no matter what anyone says, your heart was in the right place (hopefully) and you were willing to do what you feel needed to be done, and what YOUR calling was. All of us can be thankful that the Gospel (Good News) came to us at a price. A price that Christ, and many others have paid. I am thankful for all who have preached God's word down through the ages. For the Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers (Ephesians 4) who have faithfully taught and lived God's word in the past, present and the future. We owe a lot to them - nothing compared to what we owe Christ - but nevertheless they have faithfully taught the Word. Very early in Acts, it was clear that God would use many different kinds of people to spread the good news, from people he had personally appointed (the 12 apostles) through to the 7 appointed by the church in Acts 6 who also preached through to elders who preached and taught the word in their local cities and churches. The great commission was clearly not just to the Apostles, otherwise Stephen, Philip and many others would simply not have preached the word. And when the church was scattered after Stephen's death, the Apostles stayed in Jerusalem and a major church in Antioch came about. Many had wives and families, no doubt many retained homes, some worked for a living (eg Paul). No matter what their situation they followed Jesus and preached His word. And any gain they missed out on in this world, they counted for naught that they might gain Christ and bring Him to others. (Phil 3:8) I agree Ross. The Gospel came at a price to every one of us. A price paid by Christ, the Apostles, Paul, and right on down the line possibly to whomever we heard it from.
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Post by bubbles on Aug 4, 2015 0:29:02 GMT -5
I have yet to find a church that follows the early apostles teaching completely.
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Post by Ross.Bowden on Aug 4, 2015 1:48:41 GMT -5
As I've said before the apostolic ministry was the main ministry in Acts - however, it wasn't the only ministry and God used many other disciples to preach and teach. Today, we have missionaries which is essentially the word used today for Apostles and many churches send out and support missionaries in the four corners of the earth. There are pastors, elders, deacons and many others who preach and teach God's word just as there were in Acts. As the early church grew the local bishop or elder no doubt had an equally important role in their particular city to preach and teach the gospel as the apostles or missionaries moved on to the next place. Timothy is such an example in Ephesus as the church was established and grew there.
It's fairly obvious in Acts 6 that the disciples chosen by the church to sort out the food issue did that relatively quickly because it's never mentioned again.
What we do read immediately after they were commissioned by the Apostles is that "Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, performed great wonders and signs among the people".
And we read that Stephen appeared before the Sanhedrin and preached the gospel. It takes up the whole chapter of Acts 7. In other words, very early in Acts we see a model where the NT ministry consisted of many others than just the Apostle. Why wouldn't it? Wouldn't God want as many people as possible to preach and teach the Word.
God will use whomever he wants to spread His word in the way that he wants. It is absolutely wonderful that we have full-time ministers who devote their lives to preaching, teaching, pastoring etc but every Christian is part of a royal priesthood as Peter clearly says and 1 Peter 2 and we all have a responsibility to declare the praises of Him who has called us out of darkness into His marvellous light.
All Christians have a responsibility to deny ourselves and follow Jesus. Peter clearly had a home/mother in law as illlustrated in Matthew 8. I don't think he left his wife and children (we don't read specifically about them but the wives unfortunately didn't have much place in Jewish culture) or sold his house as a result of following Jesus on the short-term mission. They were not to take anything with them but they returned shortly thereafter and Peter would have lived at his house. I have written on Luke 18:29 in recent times.
In terms of Aquilla and Priscilla it seems they were married missionaries and generally are regarded as part of the 70.They helped Apollos understand the gospel more fully. (Acts 18)
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Post by fred on Aug 4, 2015 3:56:17 GMT -5
[/b]Act of the Apostles, even the very name of the Book makes it clear!!!!
The early and limited activity of Stephen and Timothy in NO way negates or compromises the clear and undeniable evidence that many verses in the NT give of God's plan for his NT church to be evangelised and pastored by an Apostolic ministry which was planned in heaven, evidenced in Jesus' compassion on the multitudes, chosen from amongst his disciples, started working amongst the lost sheep of the house of Israel and whose trail we see right unto and into the heavenly Jerusalem!
I will not, I dare not entertain, countenance or accept contrived and incorrect interpretation of scripture that presents otherwise! I would be denying Jesus Christ and convictions I have from God to do so. However I am undisturbed and unconcerned by the interpretation of Scripture that the likes of Ross has. [/quote]
I don't think you will find much disagreement among Christians concerning the great commission - Jesus told the Apostles what his plan for them was - pretty straightforward.
Where the disagreement is likely to be is in deciding how the 'extras' fitted in. Many names are mentioned, and in many instances their role is also mentioned.
Where it all becomes murky is when Apostolic succession supposedly begins. When those who had received specific instructions passed on who was left holding the reins? Who appointed them? How was this managed through the ages?
Did William Irvine receive this anointing? If so, what had happened to the succession in previous ages?
All great questions worthy of consideration.
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Post by bubbles on Aug 4, 2015 4:44:03 GMT -5
I have yet to find a church that follows the early apostles teaching completely. In terms of practice and what happened in Acts, it clearly was a special time in Christian history and the Apostles had special powers of healing, casting out devils etc We shouldn't expect Acts to be replicated today in its entirety. But as you and I know, there are plenty of ministers who preach the Word and gospel message faithfully today. Why shouldnt we expect the Acts to replicated today the same way as the early church? Why has faith been diluted instead of encouraged? Do you think the message of the kingdom and the body of christ functioning in all the different giftings cant reach or attain the same level of success as the first apostles? Im picking on you.☺
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Aug 4, 2015 9:46:15 GMT -5
Yes, Fred, the "extras" as you put it, clearly had a major part in preaching and teaching the Word. They can't be overlooked and shouldn't be - they played a major part in carrying out the Great Commission. It's fairly logical that the Apostles would appoint/bless a variety of people to preach and teach the word so that more would be reached with the message of hope. Why would God or the Apostles want to limit that in any way - they wouldn't and they didn't. When you look at the early church (way before the RCC came along) the local Bishops who had been appointed (eg: Timothy in Ephesus) were the early apostolic Fathers after the apostles died. They became the leaders/elders in the church which sent out missionaries. It wasn't until around 400AD that the Bishop of Rome gained the upper hand....but the central role of local bishops/elders (the model in Timothy) had been put in place long before then. That is not to overstate or understate anyone's role - all who preach, teach, serve, pastor etc - and use the gifts that God has given them play an important role in the body of Christ - everyone plays their part in building up the body of Christ. Ephesians 4 "So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." Our pastor mentioned his calling the other day--how clear and unmistakable and unavoidable that call was. He clearly has the gift of teaching, and the congregation reflects the Christ-centered influence of that clear teaching. I am so thankful to God for all He is doing in my life to build up that unity in faith and increase my knowledge of the Son of God. We had a hymn sing at our house Friday night, and as we sang scriptural truth to each other, I was thankful for the gift of song: that we could share songs that saints through the years have sung--hymns that draw our hearts together in fellowship and encourage us in our walk with God. More of God's work in building up the body of Christ.
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Post by jondough on Aug 4, 2015 12:15:28 GMT -5
I think that many denominations get too wrapped up in how the message was delivered. What is important is the "message", and that it doesn't change.
Good thing Jesus didn't come in our day and age. Can you just imagine....
-We are to travel in no other vehicle than a Ford ?
- So many different types of buildings we could make a requirement.
- So many food types now.
-I wonder if it would be a requirement to use Android or I-phone to make our phone calls?
-What kind of laptop would be required, and what programs would be allowed?
Bottom line, the "message' is what is important. Good practical common sense should be used in HOW that message will be delivered. It is important that the delivery meathod does not change the message. It seems that RC and possibly other with too many traditions begin to change the simple message. The traditions become part of the message. This is real danger. It happened to the Pharasee's. Their traditions became their message. They couldn't see past them when the true "message" was sitting right in front of them.
I do believe though, as Review stated above that we all have our certain place (part of the body). Our calling. This is also practical common sense as well. Look how the world works. We all have our place in it as well. There are Doctors, Farmers, mechanics. constructions workers, etc....all filling their place. It all works perfectly together.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Aug 4, 2015 12:24:54 GMT -5
I think that many denominations get too wrapped up in how the message was delivered. What is important is the "message", and that it doesn't change. Just out of curiosity, which denominations get too wrapped up in how the message is delivered? I get that the RCC has its rules and priests etc, but are you referring to ordination, or theological study? Clothing? My church isn't denominational, so I'm no expert on denominations. I just know I hear the clear, Christ-centered, God-honoring, exposition of scripture, verse by verse, every Sunday with no reference at all to any "how's" as to delivery or location. How this message affects the way I live, yes to that. Of the various churches I have attended--in rented buildings, church buildings, industrial buildings--the message was front and center and no mention or emphasis placed on the "how" part at all. I'm sure there are some, so just wondering.
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Post by jondough on Aug 4, 2015 13:20:07 GMT -5
I think that many denominations get too wrapped up in how the message was delivered. What is important is the "message", and that it doesn't change. Just out of curiosity, which denominations get too wrapped up in how the message is delivered? I get that the RCC has its rules and priests etc, but are you referring to ordination, or theological study? Clothing? My church isn't denominational, so I'm no expert on denominations. I just know I hear the clear, Christ-centered, God-honoring, exposition of scripture, verse by verse, every Sunday with no reference at all to any "how's" as to delivery or location. How this message affects the way I live, yes to that. Of the various churches I have attended--in rented buildings, church buildings, industrial buildings--the message was front and center and no mention or emphasis placed on the "how" part at all. I'm sure there are some, so just wondering. I'll start with my own. HOW its delivered is pretty important to many within my own church. From there, I'd say this why there are so many denominations today. So many.
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Post by blandie on Aug 4, 2015 13:33:29 GMT -5
Maybe what the message or the gospel that is preached is more important because the bible says there are different gospels and different jesuses. If gospel is just old english for good news or glad tidings its hard to see much thats glad or great news in the gospels of many churches including the F&W's gospel meetings. Come-to-jesus isn't the gospel and hell-and-damnation isn't the gospel and our-method-is-the-best-or-only-way isn't the gospel. I think the contents sure should be more important than the how and much of the else.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Aug 4, 2015 14:28:40 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity, which denominations get too wrapped up in how the message is delivered? I get that the RCC has its rules and priests etc, but are you referring to ordination, or theological study? Clothing? My church isn't denominational, so I'm no expert on denominations. I just know I hear the clear, Christ-centered, God-honoring, exposition of scripture, verse by verse, every Sunday with no reference at all to any "how's" as to delivery or location. How this message affects the way I live, yes to that. Of the various churches I have attended--in rented buildings, church buildings, industrial buildings--the message was front and center and no mention or emphasis placed on the "how" part at all. I'm sure there are some, so just wondering. I'll start with my own. HOW its delivered is pretty important to many within my own church. From there, I'd say this why there are so many denominations today. So many. I would agree that the "how" is of paramount importance to many within the fellowship. From the little I know about denominational differences, there is the issue of transubstantiation vs consubstantiation vs representative emblems (RCC, Lutheran, most everyone else); adult vs child baptism; Presbyterian vs Congregational leadership structure; enduring charismatic gifts vs the ending of charisma/no word of prophecy (pentecostal vs non-pentecostal); Trinity, Oneness, none of the above folks; election vs free will; male only vs male and female ministers...etc. I never thought of these differences as being the "how" so much as basic doctrinal differences based on each person's conviction from their reading of scripture, but I can see why you might call these "how." Thanks for clarifying.
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Post by bubbles on Aug 4, 2015 19:08:50 GMT -5
Why shouldnt we expect the Acts to replicated today the same way as the early church? Why has faith been diluted instead of encouraged? Do you think the message of the kingdom and the body of christ functioning in all the different giftings cant reach or attain the same level of success as the first apostles? Im picking on you.☺ Good question. God is as sovereign and powerful as He ever was so He can do anything - and clearly the Holy Spirit is at work in the world. In China for example, there are large numbers who are turning to Christ. I just see the establishment of the early church after Christ's death and resurrection as a significant point in history where Apostles had the power to heal and cast our evil spirits etc - it definitely seems to be different than now - no less powerful but more inward rather than physical healing etc. Also, when you read the stories around Peter being freed from jail - they are pretty amazing scenes.The establishment of the church was full of signs and wonders - not so much in an outward sense today....but clearly not less powerful today. Hope this makes sense. Doubt and unbelief seem to be more powerful in the church than believing for healing/deliverance/signs/wonders/miracles. The church circles I mixed in were all about extending our faith to believe for great things. I love that. Because I go back to Pauls words and quite regularly quote them (around my own life) "my faith is in the power of my God" When im on the street following the direction of the holy spirit I do see answered prayer have had unusual things happen where I/we had done all and could do no more. Then God moves and does something. Out of the blue. It concerns me as part of the body that we say we believe. We confess Christ but we limit his power. Some of the miracles were working miracles. That requires faith without wavering. Ross thanks for answering. I know my thinking is different to most but theres something in me that loves to push boundaries and believe for the impossible.. I need a miracle healing I also need another miracle and what happens is I try not to allow the luxury of doubt to enter my mind. Walking by faith surely is a strong part of the teachings of Christ. I dont think he changed his mind just because time rolled on and the power of God through time weakened..that just doesnt gell with me. I see the early church as a role model for us today. I dont think Christ changed I think man changed everything.
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Post by bubbles on Aug 4, 2015 19:21:47 GMT -5
I think that many denominations get too wrapped up in how the message was delivered. What is important is the "message", and that it doesn't change. Good thing Jesus didn't come in our day and age. Can you just imagine.... -We are to travel in no other vehicle than a Ford ? - So many different types of buildings we could make a requirement. - So many food types now. -I wonder if it would be a requirement to use Android or I-phone to make our phone calls? -What kind of laptop would be required, and what programs would be allowed? Bottom line, the "message' is what is important. Good practical common sense should be used in HOW that message will be delivered. It is important that the delivery meathod does not change the message. It seems that RC and possibly other with too many traditions begin to change the simple message. The traditions become part of the message. This is real danger. It happened to the Pharasee's. Their traditions became their message. They couldn't see past them when the true "message" was sitting right in front of them. I do believe though, as Review stated above that we all have our certain place (part of the body). Our calling. This is also practical common sense as well. Look how the world works. We all have our place in it as well. There are Doctors, Farmers, mechanics. constructions workers, etc....all filling their place. It all works perfectly together. We all have a place in the body of christ. Do you know what your calling is? Many christians dont know.
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Post by jondough on Aug 4, 2015 23:27:34 GMT -5
I think that many denominations get too wrapped up in how the message was delivered. What is important is the "message", and that it doesn't change. Good thing Jesus didn't come in our day and age. Can you just imagine.... -We are to travel in no other vehicle than a Ford ? - So many different types of buildings we could make a requirement. - So many food types now. -I wonder if it would be a requirement to use Android or I-phone to make our phone calls? -What kind of laptop would be required, and what programs would be allowed? Bottom line, the "message' is what is important. Good practical common sense should be used in HOW that message will be delivered. It is important that the delivery meathod does not change the message. It seems that RC and possibly other with too many traditions begin to change the simple message. The traditions become part of the message. This is real danger. It happened to the Pharasee's. Their traditions became their message. They couldn't see past them when the true "message" was sitting right in front of them. I do believe though, as Review stated above that we all have our certain place (part of the body). Our calling. This is also practical common sense as well. Look how the world works. We all have our place in it as well. There are Doctors, Farmers, mechanics. constructions workers, etc....all filling their place. It all works perfectly together. We all have a place in the body of christ. Do you know what your calling is? Many christians dont know. I believe so. You?
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Post by jondough on Aug 4, 2015 23:38:29 GMT -5
It's fairly logical that the Apostles would appoint/bless a variety of people to preach and teach the word so that more would be reached with the message of hope. Why would God or the Apostles want to limit that in any way - they wouldn't and they didn't. Many men of 'fairly logical' minds have from the early NT church times made many christian denominations of many kinds.
Wise, God fearing men look to scripture and not baseless assumption that have no scriptural basis. They don't take one verse and use it incorrectly and out of context. There is no conflict in Scripture! Paul's words in Ephesians 4 are in perfect harmony with Jesus teaching and instruction in the Gospels about the Apostolic ministry .When you look at the early church (way before the RCC came along) the local Bishops who had been appointed (eg: Timothy in Ephesus) were the early apostolic Fathers after the apostles died. Timothy was not a Bishop in Ephesus! He was a colleague of Paul in the Apostolic Ministry that Jesus established. Timothy on Paul's instructions appointed Bishops and Deacons in the early church (I Timothy 3) Men who have no understanding of the NT ministry that Jesus established claim Timothy was a Bishop in Ephesus. Ross has been led astray by them and has written the same.It wasn't until around 400AD that the Bishop of Rome gained the upper hand....but the central role of local bishops/elders (the model in Timothy) had been put in place long before then. That is not to overstate or understate anyone's role - all who preach, teach, serve, pastor etc - and use the gifts that God has given them play an important role in the body of Christ - everyone plays their part in building up the body of Christ. Ephesians 4 "So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." Ephesians 4 is but one of numerous NT scriptures about the NT ministry. Other relevant and important scriptures are Mat 9, 10,28 Luke 10, Acts 1, 8, 10, Rev21 etc. These scriptures are of course in harmony with what Paul wrote in Ephesians 4.
Review, Your post caused me to read Eph 4. In regards to these verses; vs 11-13: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Do you believe the Workers fill all these roles? It seems Paul was referring to them as separate roles. I curious to what your understanding is. Thanks;
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Post by jondough on Aug 5, 2015 0:27:57 GMT -5
JD, When I speak on those verses I encourage our friends in the roles they have! I am glad as I'm sure you are for friends who feed and help you also! I'm glad for men with a home where the church gathers, men (and women) who pastor and teach others. For all from the youngest and newest convert who contribute to the perfecting of the saints, work of the ministry and who edify the body of Christ. The saints/friends who do this have no misapprehension that they are apostles! But they have a very needed and essential part in the body of Christ! Some workers are 'real evangelists', others 'real teachers', others excellent at pastoring and caring for the folk/friends. From the Scripture we see that it wasn't that Paul was a teacher, Peter a Prophet, Silas a Pastor, Barnabas an evangelist etc. They were all used of God as required, but certainly each had their personal strengths and no doubts weaknesses also. Thanks Review, Makes sense to me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2015 0:58:56 GMT -5
I have yet to find a church that follows the early apostles teaching completely. do you think if you asked Jesus He would show you?
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 5, 2015 0:59:49 GMT -5
"For all from the youngest and newest convert who contribute to the perfecting of the saints, work of the ministry and who edify the body of Christ.
The saints/friends who do this have no misapprehension that they are apostles! But they have a very needed and essential part in the body of Christ!"
Review, what do you mean by the "perfecting of the saints" ? Also are you saying that only the workers are "apostles", and the friends/saints believe this ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 5, 2015 1:00:23 GMT -5
I have yet to find a church that follows the early apostles teaching completely. do you think if you asked Jesus He would show you? How do you know she hasn't Virgo !
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2015 1:04:10 GMT -5
I think that many denominations get too wrapped up in how the message was delivered. What is important is the "message", and that it doesn't change. Good thing Jesus didn't come in our day and age. Can you just imagine.... -We are to travel in no other vehicle than a Ford ? - So many different types of buildings we could make a requirement. - So many food types now. -I wonder if it would be a requirement to use Android or I-phone to make our phone calls? -What kind of laptop would be required, and what programs would be allowed? Bottom line, the "message' is what is important. Good practical common sense should be used in HOW that message will be delivered. It is important that the delivery meathod does not change the message. It seems that RC and possibly other with too many traditions begin to change the simple message. The traditions become part of the message. This is real danger. It happened to the Pharasee's. Their traditions became their message. They couldn't see past them when the true "message" was sitting right in front of them. I do believe though, as Review stated above that we all have our certain place (part of the body). Our calling. This is also practical common sense as well. Look how the world works. We all have our place in it as well. There are Doctors, Farmers, mechanics. constructions workers, etc....all filling their place. It all works perfectly together. Ephesians 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 5, 2015 1:29:48 GMT -5
JD, When I speak on those verses I encourage our friends in the roles they have! I am glad as I'm sure you are for friends who feed and help you also! I'm glad for men with a home where the church gathers, men (and women) who pastor and teach others. For all from the youngest and newest convert who contribute to the perfecting of the saints, work of the ministry and who edify the body of Christ. The saints/friends who do this have no misapprehension that they are apostles! But they have a very needed and essential part in the body of Christ! Some workers are 'real evangelists', others 'real teachers', others excellent at pastoring and caring for the folk/friends. From the Scripture we see that it wasn't that Paul was a teacher, Peter a Prophet, Silas a Pastor, Barnabas an evangelist etc. They were all used of God as required, but certainly each had their personal strengths and no doubts weaknesses also. I know I'm not of your church, but I agree with you. I see this in our meeting. Different people have different strengths in God. Some are just stronger in general, because they have given their hearts over completely to God. And as you say, they are used when needed for all things. But each one may be stronger at one thing than another. And as you say again we all have weaknesses too. When reading that verse in Ephesians I've always thought that Gods people definitely don't have just one gift, they are used when needed. But stronger in certain areas. We are only vessels ready to be filled and used for whatever purpose God wants us used for. Water cleans us inside and out, quenches our thirst, softens the ground, and waters crops, and if the natural vessel is open and in direct contact with the falling rain, it will gather the water without the touch of any man's hand. And this is like Gods people. If we are in direct contact with God he will fill us with his pure word, and replenish us, without man corrupting it before it reaches the heart. And it is then ready to be poured out to help others. In whatever way it's needed at the time. Thanks for that, I totally agree with you on this. And I can also imagine some of your friends being good at these things too after reading what they write on here
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Post by bubbles on Aug 5, 2015 4:31:49 GMT -5
We all have a place in the body of christ. Do you know what your calling is? Many christians dont know. I believe so. You? Yes I do.
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Post by bubbles on Aug 5, 2015 4:35:19 GMT -5
I have yet to find a church that follows the early apostles teaching completely. do you think if you asked Jesus He would show you? When we ask anything we usually recieve the answer and not always in the way we think. It comes down to this. We are the church. Individually and corporately.
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Post by Mary on Aug 5, 2015 5:36:30 GMT -5
The problem with the workers is that they do not have clearly defined roles. They started out as evangelists - a role which Edward Cooney wished to continue in but was put out for. The workers then changed from evangelists to that of pastors but still expect to maintain the role of evangelist. Mainstream churches are patterned on Ephesians 4, something that spoke very loud to me when I left meetings and started attending a church. In meetings there are workers and laity. We were told that the meetings are the nearest thing to the Bible but their church does not function like the NT church. Churches have clearly defined missionaries, evangelist, pastors and teachers. Review stated a few posts ago that these must be patterned on Matthew 10 yet he says in a recent post that those in meetings can fulfil these roles. I am yet to see the general professing people in meetings functioning in the role of pastor, evangelists etc as review wrote in his post. People in meeting are not allowed to become evangelists or missionaries or pastors. They have to become a worker.
Note Eph 4 says, he gave some apostles etc. he does not say that some people carry all these but that some people have this and some people have that. These were clearly different people. However, someone might give up their role as missionary and become a pastor or change roles.
Eph 4: 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
When Jesus left he said he would sent the Holy Spirit in his place. The believers now received the Holy Spirit and went everywhere preaching the word, it was not just left for the apostles. The Holy Spirit was given to all who believed not just the 12 who were with Jesus. All were equipped.
Acts 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. 4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
We were clearly told in meetings by workers not to talk to people about our beliefs but that we were to only invite people to meetings. It was the workers place to 'preach' to people. We were told not to cast our pearls before swine. The gap between workers and congregation was clearly defined and there were 2 categories. Workers were to spread the word and people were there to house and look after the workers and invite people to meetings.
Ephesians 4 is alive and well in mainstream churches who have different roles for missionaries, evangelists, and pastors. A missionary leaves home and goes to a foreign land to preach. An evangelist travels around preaching, a pastor remains at home looking after the flock. The workers make the error in thinking that a pastor should live like a missionary. Jesus did not say a pastor should sell give up all and go out preaching. That is not a pastor's or minsters as some churches call them, role or calling. If the workers church functioned in the role of different ministries then there would be no room for them to criticise pastors or ministers who shepherd the existing flock. Workers were originally apostles or evangelists or missionaries, not pastors over existing congregation. The workers changed to being put over churches i.e. being pastors with unsuccessful attempts at evangelising on a Sunday while taking the role of pastor the rest of the week.
A pastors role is not to roam around like an evangelist. Of course a missionary leaves home, a missionary is not a missionary if they stay home, they leave home and travel to another land. The role of elder and deacon is also clearly defined as are these other ministries in the church.
Interesting that we heard about those in the early days who had left their churches because they were not satisfied and joined with the workers. What I notice was that there were very few who actually did this. Most did not join the workers which says that most were satisfied with the churches they were in and did not leave to join this new movement.
The apostles and Jesus performed miracles. For a church to say they follow the NT pattern ministry they would have to also do these things.
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Post by Mary on Aug 5, 2015 6:14:24 GMT -5
1 Corinthians 12King James Version (KJV)
12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
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Post by Mary on Aug 5, 2015 6:27:38 GMT -5
The New Testament apostolic ministry. Yes, bubbles you are right. Where is this ministry today. I guess the Pentecostals are closest to it.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
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Post by bubbles on Aug 5, 2015 7:03:34 GMT -5
Mary
I couldnt have typed all those verses. Thanks. I was thinking of verse 15 earlier today. Im sure that all the body are not functioning the way they are designed too. I think of people who sit in churches many yrs with a yearning inside their being. It could be anything eg: little old lady full of mercy and compassion would love to help the sick and infirm. Has read all the scriptures has the faith but is locked in a local church where laying on of hands and spiritual giftings are not encouraged nor excersized. She has a gift of healing but is stopped from moving in that gift. -ex drug addict yearning to get involved with young people warn them of the dangers. No youth group to help the youth. The equiping for the work of the ministry is discipling thing. There is an impartation that takes place. The holy spirit is the power source who brings it all together with individuals. He can be hindered. I wouldnt want to hinder him. Ever. My question is and this is too myself as well. Do I stand in the way when god wants to move? Am I part of the solution or am I part of the problem. Every person who loves christ usually wants to be a part of the solution but sometimes by the rules the local church is guided by causes hinderance to the holy spirit having his way in the local church. That can cover many areas of church life from ministry through to administration. If the leaders dont pray together bringing everything under subjection to the holy spirit finding agreement on major decisions. Seeking the lord in all things like the apostles did but also listening to the giftings of revelation via the fivefold ministry..there will be problems. Jesus is the head of the body he communicates with us via the holy spirit in us.
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