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Post by What Hat on Jun 15, 2015 12:36:59 GMT -5
There could be a fear factor . . . not knowing why you left . . . not sure if they want to know why you left because, well, you left. They know that you know how to contact someone if you want to discuss returning. Might be difficult for some non-professing spouses to be friendly with the friends and for the friends to be friendly with such a spouse. If there was tension before you left, likely would there be less tension or animosity or anything negative towards the friends after you left? Could be that anyone knowing a good bit about the way and chooses to not profess seems less friendly and is less easy to befriend (deemed to have judged the way not of Jesus?) than someone who knows little of the way. Greg ~ I guess there could have been a number of things that might have affected the cold shoulder treatment of some of the friends? However, for workers to show the same attitude and not even try to contact me after I left, seemed to convince me how little affection any of them had for us. Honestly, I wonder to this day why I even bothered writing an Exit Letter over two years later to explain my sentiments and to reach out to them one last time? It all seems like such a waste of time today due to the indifference we experienced firsthand. Even my children wondered why I bothered continuing in meetings so long and viewed their displeasure of the whole situation. But, I'm thankful to say that they do attend church today and didn't let it color their concept of God in their minds, which often happens to those who leave the fold. Faune, regarding that exit letter. The first paragraph is friendly enough. Then the second paragraph .. I had my reasons for leaving and they had a lot to do with the doctrine being taught and the fruit that was evident. From close study of the scriptures, especially the gospels, I found a number of things which didn't agree with what Jesus actually lived and taught ~ especially His plan of salvation through His grace and all atoning blood on Calvary. Our justification by faith in His complete sacrifice on Calvary was not even stressed slightly within this faith known as “The Truth.” In the third paragraph you go on to compare the friends to "Pharisees ... who practiced teachings resembling cults today, who believed they were the 'only right way.'" The letter goes on for 12 or 13 more paragraphs. This is probably how you honestly felt at the time, but if you read this back today, are you really surprised that no one called you back? thelibertyconnection.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=34:gerber-faune-fuller&catid=7:before-2000&Itemid=8
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Post by What Hat on Jun 15, 2015 12:58:05 GMT -5
What Hat ~ To answer your earlier question, the shunning in meeting and exclusion from potluck gatherings began shortly after my husband left the fold in Oct. 1981 and continued pretty much up until I left in April 1995. However, it was only some of the folks in our assigned meeting that put up walls ~ not all of the friends in our area. I suspect that part of it was related to my husband leaving the 2x2's due our rather unpleasant senior workers' visit about three months after we arrived down South? Although we tried to make friends with some of the folks in our area shortly after arriving and invited them to our home, it seemed that some had already formed their opinions about us and decided we wouldn't fit well within their "inner circle" of friends. Testimonies for a while also reflected their displeasure.
However, I continued on thinking that things would change over time. Unfortunately, that day never came with some in our immediate meeting and I just learned to accept the "status quo" within our area. As a result, I cultivated some good Christian friends on the outside that took up the slack for the "friends" inside the fold and they are still my friends today years after leaving the 2x2's.
Honestly, it felt like going from an area where we were embraced by the friends to one where we were only tolerated and not well received by them, perhaps due to cultural differences? However, even after I just stopped attending meetings in 1995 without a word, neither the friends or workers ever contacted me again. So, I guess I wasn't missed very much after departing the fold myself later on along with our children, who never did profess? I can kind of see what was going on from the descriptions in your posts, although I might be wrong in some respects. Having a so-called 'divided home' puts you at a disadvantage. It also sounds like you had no 'real friends' within the friends' church in your new area. It does sound quite awful for you. I lasted in a 'divided home' scenario for a few months, and when the once-a-month Bible study was removed that was the last straw. At the same time, I think all the anti-cult lists and doctrinal fault finding doesn't really describe the situation accurately and also, it tends to get the friends' back up. Note the 'this site is insane' thread, for an example of that. Many conservative churches do not like children marrying outside the church, and if you do, you might be shunned entirely or expelled from the church. Some cultures do the same. The friends aren't quite as bad as that, but they discourage being married outside their group, and the 'divided home' has less status. It's more difficult for a 'divided home' to bond with other couples at a more intimate level; they don't have as many social opportunities. Yes, this is cult-ish or controlling behaviour, but churches and cultures that practice outright shunning aren't considered cults. Why should the friends, who only discourage outside marriages, be considered a cult? There are 'divided home' couples who do well, but it takes some work on their part, or on some of the friends who are willing to go against the grain. You do use the word 'shun' in your description, but I think that is somewhat inflammatory, and when friends see it, they'll think you're exaggerating or being deceptive. Shunning means that no one talks to you at all. That wasn't your experience as long as you remained in the church. It's good that you found friends on the outside and the only sad thing I see is that you hung on for so long. Incidentally, did you worship with friends on the outside? This is another red flag. When we told the workers that we would be going to our daughter's church on visits, this threw a distinct pall over the visit. If they're just friends, I don't think there is any issue.
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Post by rational on Jun 15, 2015 12:58:29 GMT -5
Greg ~ I guess there could have been a number of things that might have affected the cold shoulder treatment of some of the friends? However, for workers to show the same attitude and not even try to contact me after I left, seemed to convince me how little affection any of them had for us. It might not be a matter of a lack of affection but respect for your decision. Did you leave because you thought you were going to a better situation or did you leave so they could follow you and try to get you to come back?I would wonder about your motives as well. What exactly was the point?
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Post by emy on Jun 15, 2015 14:53:41 GMT -5
A lot has to do with the non-fellowship spouse. If s/he is comfortable socializing with the friends and workers, I don't know any group gathering they would be excluded from IF everyone else is invited. (Some areas larger than ours have to pick and choose if they hold a gathering at home.) I can easily suppose that having been offended by a worker visit, Faune's husband would not much enjoy socializing with the group. Thus, Faune maybe was also more on edge and enjoyed gatherings less. So (speculation of course), rather than make socializing a difficult experience or feeling of obligation, they tried to be considerate and respect their feelings?
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Post by SharonArnold on Jun 15, 2015 14:56:50 GMT -5
A lot has to do with the non-fellowship spouse. If s/he is comfortable socializing with the friends and workers, I don't know any group gathering they would be excluded from IF everyone else is invited. (Some areas larger than ours have to pick and choose if they hold a gathering at home.) I can easily suppose that having been offended by a worker visit, Faune's husband would not much enjoy socializing with the group. Thus, Faune maybe was also more on edge and enjoyed gatherings less. So (speculation of course), rather than make socializing a difficult experience or feeling of obligation, they tried to be considerate and respect their feelings? Oh, emy, that is such a nice thought. Sweet even. But I think 'reality" is somewhat more complicated than that.
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Post by emy on Jun 15, 2015 15:00:51 GMT -5
Sharon, I was basing my opinion on personal experience. In our area we have a "divided" home and also have a separated couple who both attend meeting. They are never left out because they all seem comfortable being with us.
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Post by rational on Jun 15, 2015 16:26:12 GMT -5
Sharon, I was basing my opinion on personal experience. In our area we have a "divided" home and also have a separated couple who both attend meeting. They are never left out because they all seem comfortable being with us. The attitude of the people involved probably have a lot more to do with this than the religion to which they belong. No matter what the workers said, for example, there was no way that should have carried over to friends who probably didn't even know of the events. We all project our feelings, to so extent, on others and perhaps think they are 'shunning' or 'turning a cold shoulder' when in fact they are turning away to sneeze or have painful and/or embarrassing psoriasis and are somewhat shy because of it. Of course, there are some people, myself excluded, that some people just don't enjoy socializing with!
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Post by fixit on Jun 15, 2015 16:30:57 GMT -5
Sharon, I was basing my opinion on personal experience. In our area we have a "divided" home and also have a separated couple who both attend meeting. They are never left out because they all seem comfortable being with us. Emy, that is nice and as it should be. However, in our area workers in the past have specifically stipulated that non-professing spouses be excluded from gatherings. Many of us today wouldn't attend a gathering on those terms and we do what we can to not ostracise non-professing spouses. I think mostly workers today would do the same.
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Post by faune on Jun 15, 2015 16:36:36 GMT -5
A lot has to do with the non-fellowship spouse. If s/he is comfortable socializing with the friends and workers, I don't know any group gathering they would be excluded from IF everyone else is invited. (Some areas larger than ours have to pick and choose if they hold a gathering at home.) I can easily suppose that having been offended by a worker visit, Faune's husband would not much enjoy socializing with the group. Thus, Faune maybe was also more on edge and enjoyed gatherings less. So (speculation of course), rather than make socializing a difficult experience or feeling of obligation, they tried to be considerate and respect their feelings? Oh, emy, that is such a nice thought. Sweet even. But I think 'reality" is somewhat more complicated than that. Honestly, looking back I feel my Exit Letter was more for myself than the friends. I doubt it made any different in any of their lives and the elder's wife actually returned my letter unopened and marked, "Refused, Return to Sender." From the reception I got from some within our meeting and the coolness of their behavior towards me while still professing, it wasn't hard to deduct I wasn't wanted in their meeting. However, there were a few other friends in that meeting area who were most kind to us and reached out in return and didn't act so "uppity" around us. You may find it hard to believe under the circumstances, but I did try to break the ice with these folks who practiced the cold shoulder treatment, but to no avail. Although I had some good Christian friends at work and on the outside of the fold, I never attended any of their services until a couple years after I left the 2x2's, so that never entered the picture here. However, the fact that way before I ever wrote an Exit Letter (over 2 years after leaving the 2x2's), the friends and workers never showed any interest in even contacting me to see if I was still in the land of the living. It surely made me aware how little they really did care about us and how feigned their friendship was in actuality.
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Post by snow on Jun 15, 2015 16:37:44 GMT -5
Sharon, I was basing my opinion on personal experience. In our area we have a "divided" home and also have a separated couple who both attend meeting. They are never left out because they all seem comfortable being with us. Emy, that is nice and as it should be. However, in our area workers in the past have specifically stipulated that non-professing spouses be excluded from gatherings. Many of us today wouldn't attend a gathering on those terms and we do what we can to not ostracise non-professing spouses. I think mostly workers today would do the same. From all the things I've heard on here about a divided home and how a non professing spouse is viewed and treated, it gives me a better understanding of how it must have been for my grandfather. My grandmother professed and it was a very big lifestyle change because she loved to go to dances etc. before she professed. In fact, I heard that people figured she'd be back dancing before long. However, that never happened. So it must have been a huge change for my grandfather and their kids because my mother was the only one to profess out of 6 kids.
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Post by faune on Jun 15, 2015 16:48:51 GMT -5
Sharon, I was basing my opinion on personal experience. In our area we have a "divided" home and also have a separated couple who both attend meeting. They are never left out because they all seem comfortable being with us. Emy, that is nice and as it should be. However, in our area workers in the past have specifically stipulated that non-professing spouses be excluded from gatherings. Many of us today wouldn't attend a gathering on those terms and we do what we can to not ostracise non-professing spouses. I think mostly workers today would do the same. Fixit ~ I'm glad to hear you share that opinion. However, the cold shoulder treatment began shortly after we arrived in the area and my husband was still professing. We even tried to get better acquainted by inviting different families in the area to our home for a potluck dinner before that special workers visit in October 1981. We were not going out of our way to make enemies, I assure you, but trying to get better acquainted with some of the friends in this area. I suspect the backlash was associated with the problems we encountered due to the recession after we arrived here and cultural differences? Whatever their reason, it was a total shocker to me and our family. We were well liked by the friends up home and we didn't expect to be treated any differently after our move Down South. However, this was more a reality within the meetings than with folks in the outside world, who behaved much differently and were most congenial. Personally, if it wasn't for the senior workers visit and their insinuations about my husband's predicament, he might have continued professing? But, they made him feel so rejected by them that he never returned to another meeting after their visit. One thing for sure, the overseer really knew how to "rub salt in one's wounds" compared to showing compassion during hard times! My husband's remark after their visit was "with friends like this, who needs enemies."
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Post by maryhig on Jun 15, 2015 17:05:23 GMT -5
Emy, that is nice and as it should be. However, in our area workers in the past have specifically stipulated that non-professing spouses be excluded from gatherings. Many of us today wouldn't attend a gathering on those terms and we do what we can to not ostracise non-professing spouses. I think mostly workers today would do the same. From all the things I've heard on here about a divided home and how a non professing spouse is viewed and treated, it gives me a better understanding of how it must have been for my grandfather. My grandmother professed and it was a very big lifestyle change because she loved to go to dances etc. before she professed. In fact, I heard that people figured she'd be back dancing before long. However, that never happened. So it must have been a huge change for my grandfather and their kids because my mother was the only one to profess out of 6 kids. My mum had 6 kids too, and I'm the only one going to the meeting at the moment. My mum also went out to pubs etc, when she was young, but she started going to the meeting and gave it all up, started wearing skirts, and stopped dying her hair and stopped wearing make up etc. My dad left her when she was in her 30s. My mum was a good wife and mother, but he wanted her out socialising. And she wanted to stay home, be a mum and wife and love God. I was so upset when he left, because she is so soft and gentle and she was left with all the kids. She stayed on her own. But she always says, "I might be alone, but I'm never lonely as long as God is with me" and God has looked after her, because all her children live near her, and she has 25 grandchildren who because they all live so close, all help her. So she's never on her own for long anyway. She's blessed!
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Post by snow on Jun 15, 2015 17:30:41 GMT -5
From all the things I've heard on here about a divided home and how a non professing spouse is viewed and treated, it gives me a better understanding of how it must have been for my grandfather. My grandmother professed and it was a very big lifestyle change because she loved to go to dances etc. before she professed. In fact, I heard that people figured she'd be back dancing before long. However, that never happened. So it must have been a huge change for my grandfather and their kids because my mother was the only one to profess out of 6 kids. My mum had 6 kids too, and I'm the only one going to the meeting at the moment. My mum also went out to pubs etc, when she was young, but she started going to the meeting and gave it all up, started wearing skirts, and stopped dying her hair and stopped wearing make up etc. My dad left her when she was in her 30s. My mum was a good wife and mother, but he wanted her out socialising. And she wanted to stay home, be a mum and wife and love God. I was so upset when he left, because she is so soft and gentle and she was left with all the kids. She stayed on her own. But she always says, "I might be alone, but I'm never lonely as long as God is with me" and God has looked after her, because all her children live near her, and she has 25 grandchildren who because they all live so close, all help her. So she's never on her own for long anyway. She's blessed! Thanks for sharing that Maryhig. I think that must have been how it was for my grandmother except my grandfather didn't leave her. They were married a long time before he died a few years before her. But it must have been a big change and challenge for both of them because Grandpa never professed or even went to church. I know there were rough times though they seemed to make it through. There always seemed to be lots of love in the home from what I remember and he always allowed her to go to meetings etc.
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Post by fixit on Jun 15, 2015 18:41:28 GMT -5
Fixit ~ I'm glad to hear you share that opinion. However, the cold shoulder treatment began shortly after we arrived in the area and my husband was still professing. We even tried to get better acquainted by inviting different families in the area to our home for a potluck dinner before that special workers visit in October 1981. We were not going out of our way to make enemies, I assure you, but trying to get better acquainted with some of the friends in this area. I suspect the backlash was associated with the problems we encountered due to the recession after we arrived here and cultural differences? Whatever their reason, it was a total shocker to me and our family. We were well liked by the friends up home and we didn't expect to be treated any differently after our move Down South. However, this was more a reality within the meetings than with folks in the outside world, who behaved much differently and were most congenial. Personally, if it wasn't for the senior workers visit and their insinuations about my husband's predicament, he might have continued professing? But they made him feel rejected by them and he never returned to another meeting after their visit. One thing for sure, the overseer really knew how to "rub salt in one's wounds" compared to showing compassion during hard times! Faune, your story reminds me of what Jesus taught in Luke 15... I'm not sure that I need to say more, the message in this chapter speaks for itself. If F&W ever wonder what's wrong with the fellowship, I think the answer is in this chapter.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 18:47:17 GMT -5
Fixit ~ I'm glad to hear you share that opinion. However, the cold shoulder treatment began shortly after we arrived in the area and my husband was still professing. We even tried to get better acquainted by inviting different families in the area to our home for a potluck dinner before that special workers visit in October 1981. We were not going out of our way to make enemies, I assure you, but trying to get better acquainted with some of the friends in this area. I suspect the backlash was associated with the problems we encountered due to the recession after we arrived here and cultural differences? Whatever their reason, it was a total shocker to me and our family. We were well liked by the friends up home and we didn't expect to be treated any differently after our move Down South. However, this was more a reality within the meetings than with folks in the outside world, who behaved much differently and were most congenial. Personally, if it wasn't for the senior workers visit and their insinuations about my husband's predicament, he might have continued professing? But they made him feel rejected by them and he never returned to another meeting after their visit. One thing for sure, the overseer really knew how to "rub salt in one's wounds" compared to showing compassion during hard times! Faune, your story reminds me of what Jesus taught in Luke 15... I'm not sure that I need to say more, the message in this chapter speaks for itself. If F&W ever wonder what's wrong with the fellowship, I think the answer is in this chapter. I love the prodigal son parable I spoke on it on sunday...
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Post by fixit on Jun 15, 2015 18:55:59 GMT -5
I love the prodigal son parable I spoke on it on sunday... It's great Wally. The lost sheep parable as well. It tells us a lot about Jesus, and his father's kingdom.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jun 15, 2015 19:01:12 GMT -5
I love the prodigal son parable I spoke on it on sunday... It's great Wally. The lost sheep parable as well. It tells us a lot about Jesus, and his father's kingdom. Agreed. I find immense comfort in knowing I have a Shepherd who won't let one of His sheep stay lost.
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Post by Greg on Jun 15, 2015 19:11:35 GMT -5
Think about it . . . Jesus as the shepherd will be the one going to get and return with the lost sheep
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 19:18:16 GMT -5
After my excommunication, I considered as many options as possible for me to think of, even "confessing" to that which I knew to be untrue. In discussing every option with Ylva, she said "that is one thing you simply cannot do."
Then, making every effort to support the group I possibly could, female "workers" called Ylva, tellin her she had to leave me as she was just too close to me to see how wicked I really was. For her, that was the "last straw..." and she left the group. Not one bit of care for her nor the two professing children involved. Not one bit. We all began to see things very clearly after that, recognizing there would be no repentance in hearts as hard as that. Now it is very easy to empathize with others experiencing much the same calloused indifference after a life of faithful loyal service giving my best in that "work."
Who dares say someone did not give the very last of their health, strength and youth to that cause? Who? Then the betrayal that followed, still unbelievable after all thes years. Who dares say Ylva did not give her best also? People NEED to know what can happen to them if they run afoul of the dictators running the show who are so far from the example of Christ they claim to follow. Sad sigh! Thankfully she has gone to her reward, only to be lied about at her memorial service, by, yes, "a worker" claiming not to even know her. A worker who spent many days in our home in the U.S.A. What a wonderful "Christian testimony!" expected to just be forgotten.
"Only remembered..."
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jun 15, 2015 19:45:22 GMT -5
Think about it . . . Jesus as the shepherd will be the one going to get and return with the lost sheep Exactly!
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Post by emy on Jun 15, 2015 20:01:39 GMT -5
Faune, your story reminds me of what Jesus taught in Luke 15... I'm not sure that I need to say more, the message in this chapter speaks for itself. If F&W ever wonder what's wrong with the fellowship, I think the answer is in this chapter. I love the prodigal son parable I spoke on it on sunday... And I touched on all 3 parts with what I said about being thankful.
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Post by fixit on Jun 15, 2015 20:02:53 GMT -5
Think about it . . . Jesus as the shepherd will be the one going to get and return with the lost sheep Do we have the same care and compassion for the lost sheep?
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Post by faune on Jun 15, 2015 22:23:18 GMT -5
Greg ~ I guess there could have been a number of things that might have affected the cold shoulder treatment of some of the friends? However, for workers to show the same attitude and not even try to contact me after I left, seemed to convince me how little affection any of them had for us. It might not be a matter of a lack of affection but respect for your decision. Did you leave because you thought you were going to a better situation or did you leave so they could follow you and try to get you to come back?I would wonder about your motives as well. What exactly was the point? Rational ~ I left the meetings when staying seemed no more an option for me, due to feeling it was pointless to remain. At the time I wrote my Exit Letter, it was more like a catharsis for me to put my feelings and impressions down on paper. However, looking back, it was a waste of time and pointless considering the indifference experienced by me and my family. One response received from the elder's wife convinced me of this fact when my letter was returned unopened and marked, "Refused, Return to Sender." I never bothered to contact them again after that response and chided myself for trying to communicate with any of them again. It was a total waste of time, but an eye opener at the same moment, if that makes sense to you?
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Post by fixit on Jun 15, 2015 23:32:42 GMT -5
It might not be a matter of a lack of affection but respect for your decision. Did you leave because you thought you were going to a better situation or did you leave so they could follow you and try to get you to come back?I would wonder about your motives as well. What exactly was the point? Rational ~ I left the meetings when staying seemed no more an option for me, due to feeling it was pointless to remain. At the time I wrote my Exit Letter, it was more like a catharsis for me to put my feelings and impressions down on paper. However, looking back, it was a waste of time and pointless considering the indifference experienced by me and my family. One response received from the elder's wife convinced me of this fact when my letter was returned unopened and marked, "Refused, Return to Sender." I never bothered to contact them again after that response and chided myself for trying to communicate with any of them again. It was a total waste of time, but an eye opener at the same moment, if that makes sense to you? Faune.... here's the problem as I see it: The elder and his wife probably show up to all the meetings, stand around the piano singing hymns with the workers, discuss the affairs of "the kingdom" with them, perhaps even provide them with a car. That will qualify them to be elders, but it doesn't mean they'll have the kind of caring heart we read about in Luke 15.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 16, 2015 23:31:43 GMT -5
I probably spoke to soon in saying exiting was a non-event, but what I really meant is not seeing anything particularly cultish about leaving for most people exiting. For example, Dennis Jacobsen experienced workers telling his wife that he, Dennis, was "wicked". That's quite strange, and one could say, high controlling and judgemental behaviour. But from my experience and perspective, atypical. I believe you, Dennis, and perhaps the workers once did things like that, and perhaps somewhere they still do things like that, but I've not heard or seen the like in any exits that I'm familiar with. If I had I would revise my opinions in general. Mind you, I've never known a friend or ex-friend of our acquaintance to inhabit these boards, to write an exit letter or an exit narrative, so perhaps things are different here. Now people did say some odd things when we left. The main over-riding impression is that the workers never do or did anything wrong, and any exit conversations, of which we had quite a few, always turned to an analysis of what *we* might have done wrong. That's understandable though; it's a defence mechanism kicking in. Here I'm not talking about doctrine, but just general ineptness in how some things were handled. For example, a worker telling me furtively in the driveway just as I was about to leave after Sunday meeting that we wouldn't have* Bible study any longer. "Oh by the way just before you pull out, we've decided that you shouldn't have Wednesday Bible study any more". And prior to that, we were dropped from the Union Sunday list without any special notice. If you mention incidents like this to the friends, you'll encounter excuse-making and tripping over themselves because rule 1 is that the workers never do anything wrong. And rule 2 is that when the workers do something wrong, you should refer back to rule number 1.
But those items were just a ripple in the firmament, again, not to compare with other recent life experiences.
We have maintained relationships with 4 or 5 couples that were very good friends while we were in the fellowship, and remain friends now. The rest we have little to do with, although if we bump into someone they're friendly enough. That's about what you'd expect leaving any social group though. Today I had a coffee with a dozen or so men from the f&w group as I do every month or two. As we caught up on recent events, joked and talked about this and that, I thought to myself, "some folks think these guys are in a cult". What church are they talking about, because it's not the church that I know.
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Post by snow on Jun 17, 2015 12:57:51 GMT -5
I probably spoke to soon in saying exiting was a non-event, but what I really meant is not seeing anything particularly cultish about leaving for most people exiting. For example, Dennis Jacobsen experienced workers telling his wife that he, Dennis, was "wicked". That's quite strange, and one could say, high controlling and judgemental behaviour. But from my experience and perspective, atypical. I believe you, Dennis, and perhaps the workers once did things like that, and perhaps somewhere they still do things like that, but I've not heard or seen the like in any exits that I'm familiar with. If I had I would revise my opinions in general. Mind you, I've never known a friend or ex-friend of our acquaintance to inhabit these boards, to write an exit letter or an exit narrative, so perhaps things are different here. Now people did say some odd things when we left. The main over-riding impression is that the workers never do or did anything wrong, and any exit conversations, of which we had quite a few, always turned to an analysis of what *we* might have done wrong. That's understandable though; it's a defence mechanism kicking in. Here I'm not talking about doctrine, but just general ineptness in how some things were handled. For example, a worker telling me furtively in the driveway just as I was about to leave after Sunday meeting that we wouldn't have* Bible study any longer. "Oh by the way just before you pull out, we've decided that you shouldn't have Wednesday Bible study any more". And prior to that, we were dropped from the Union Sunday list without any special notice. If you mention incidents like this to the friends, you'll encounter excuse-making and tripping over themselves because rule 1 is that the workers never do anything wrong. And rule 2 is that when the workers do something wrong, you should refer back to rule number 1. But those items were just a ripple in the firmament, again, not to compare with other recent life experiences. We have maintained relationships with 4 or 5 couples that were very good friends while we were in the fellowship, and remain friends now. The rest we have little to do with, although if we bump into someone they're friendly enough. That's about what you'd expect leaving any social group though. Today I had a coffee with a dozen or so men from the f&w group as I do every month or two. As we caught up on recent events, joked and talked about this and that, I thought to myself, "some folks think these guys are in a cult". What church are they talking about, because it's not the church that I know. Yes, when I look back to what it was like being a kid in a professing home where I no longer professed, there were definitely some cult like behaviors and because of my age likely a lot of people trying to make me feel guilty so that I would re profess. But it was the words of the worker I had chosen to go to with my questions that shocked me enough to start really thinking about what Christianity stood for and the group I was part of. I recognize that her words were done in a moment of frustration and anger, but still, it shocked me, hurt me and scared me. I never asked them another question, I thought about what had transpired, and I finally decided I no longer could be part of any group in Christianity. I doubt I would have ever quit professing if I hadn't had that conversation that shocked me and hurt me so deeply. Maybe I would, hard to know. But after I left home and came back to the city where my parents lived to visit, I had interactions with the friends of my parents and for the most part they were always cordial. In some cases I have remained in contact with some to this day which isn't bad seeing as I haven't been to a meeting in 42 years. So in that way my experience is similar to your's What hat in that I didn't find the friends to completely ignore me. Probably part of it was because of respect for my parents and I was visiting them so would go to potlucks etc with them, but when I did people talked to me, caught up on news and overall were friendly. At both my parents funerals, my needs for the sermon was requested so they gave me that consideration also. I wrote a little history up for both of them and the younger worker read it. They did a luncheon after each funeral and people were very loving. It was interesting with my mom's funeral because I made a bit of a speech during the luncheon just thanking them for putting it all together for the family and how much I appreciated that and afterwards I had people coming up to me thanking me for acknowledging their effort. I thought it was important to let them know because I was really grateful, but it makes you wonder if that didn't happen with some others, I don't know. In any case, my experience was a lot different I think because of 1. my age when it happened, and 2. I didn't live in the same city as my parents and only visited 1-2 times a year. It might have been different if I left as an adult and continued to live in the city? I'd like to think it wouldn't have changed things and I would still be part of some things from time to time, but I will never know. I still don't live there so my contact now if mostly emails and social media.
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Post by faune on Jun 19, 2015 7:17:31 GMT -5
Rational ~ I left the meetings when staying seemed no more an option for me, due to feeling it was pointless to remain. At the time I wrote my Exit Letter, it was more like a catharsis for me to put my feelings and impressions down on paper. However, looking back, it was a waste of time and pointless considering the indifference experienced by me and my family. One response received from the elder's wife convinced me of this fact when my letter was returned unopened and marked, "Refused, Return to Sender." I never bothered to contact them again after that response and chided myself for trying to communicate with any of them again. It was a total waste of time, but an eye opener at the same moment, if that makes sense to you? Faune.... here's the problem as I see it: The elder and his wife probably show up to all the meetings, stand around the piano singing hymns with the workers, discuss the affairs of "the kingdom" with them, perhaps even provide them with a car. That will qualify them to be elders, but it doesn't mean they'll have the kind of caring heart we read about in Luke 15. Fixit ~ As you probably know, most folks are related to one another within the meetings who are B&R which contributes to the Rumor Mill and also to the group shunning within meeting areas. It's like dealing with "cliques" in which you are the outsider and don't get invited in unless you "fit the mold" of the group. Well, some were related to the elder & wife and included in their clique of friends and relatives, followed the leader to keep their place in the group. There was surface cordialness after meetings, but no further. However, there were a few friends who did reach out to us in the beginning who were also shunned by the same folks for one reason or another. There were also a few families within another meeting area where we lived who were kind to us and not so uppity in their conduct. However, once my husband ceased to professed in October 1981 and removed himself from the meetings after the senior workers visit, folks seemed to become more casual all around. I missed the social acceptance we enjoyed back in the Northeast; but, being a socialable person, I made new friends on the outside who picked up the slack for the coolness of "friends" within the meetings.
Although I wondered about why we were being honored with a senior workers visit so early after moving to the area (3 months), I soon learned afterwards that the friends in our meeting must have motivated their visit along with the sentiment shared. That was truly saddening at a time when we were experiencing hard times due to the recession and having to make big changes to weather the storm and stay afloat. My return to work and my husband's re-training for another line of work were essential to our survival at this time, which the workers seemed not to understand by their remarks? Since we never asked their advice regarding our decisions and did what we felt was necessary at the time, perhaps they felt offended we didn't consult them first?
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Post by faune on Jun 19, 2015 8:41:17 GMT -5
I probably spoke to soon in saying exiting was a non-event, but what I really meant is not seeing anything particularly cultish about leaving for most people exiting. For example, Dennis Jacobsen experienced workers telling his wife that he, Dennis, was "wicked". That's quite strange, and one could say, high controlling and judgemental behaviour. But from my experience and perspective, atypical. I believe you, Dennis, and perhaps the workers once did things like that, and perhaps somewhere they still do things like that, but I've not heard or seen the like in any exits that I'm familiar with. If I had I would revise my opinions in general. Mind you, I've never known a friend or ex-friend of our acquaintance to inhabit these boards, to write an exit letter or an exit narrative, so perhaps things are different here. Now people did say some odd things when we left. The main over-riding impression is that the workers never do or did anything wrong, and any exit conversations, of which we had quite a few, always turned to an analysis of what *we* might have done wrong. That's understandable though; it's a defence mechanism kicking in. Here I'm not talking about doctrine, but just general ineptness in how some things were handled. For example, a worker telling me furtively in the driveway just as I was about to leave after Sunday meeting that we wouldn't have* Bible study any longer. "Oh by the way just before you pull out, we've decided that you shouldn't have Wednesday Bible study any more". And prior to that, we were dropped from the Union Sunday list without any special notice. If you mention incidents like this to the friends, you'll encounter excuse-making and tripping over themselves because rule 1 is that the workers never do anything wrong. And rule 2 is that when the workers do something wrong, you should refer back to rule number 1. But those items were just a ripple in the firmament, again, not to compare with other recent life experiences. We have maintained relationships with 4 or 5 couples that were very good friends while we were in the fellowship, and remain friends now. The rest we have little to do with, although if we bump into someone they're friendly enough. That's about what you'd expect leaving any social group though. Today I had a coffee with a dozen or so men from the f&w group as I do every month or two. As we caught up on recent events, joked and talked about this and that, I thought to myself, "some folks think these guys are in a cult". What church are they talking about, because it's not the church that I know. What Hat ~ It sounds like you came from an area where the friends were more cordial and accepting of you and not so exclusive as to write you off after leaving the group? However, when I finally left the meetings after 14 years down South, nobody ever contacted me afterwards among the F&W's. I was the first one to reach out over two years later through my Exit Letter, which never received a response from any of the folks I mailed it to in our meeting area, except for the "Refused, Return to Sender" response from the elder's wife. Obviously, they didn't care enough to even read the letter before returning it to me? So, try to explain it as you may, I took it as an indicator that I wasted my time even trying to continue on in meetings after my husband left and should have joined him back in time? I had hoped things would change over time, but was sadly mistaken. Perhaps now you understand my reference to Pharisees within my Exit Letter, since the way we were treated surely reminded me of such behavior?
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