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Post by What Hat on Jun 11, 2015 23:18:29 GMT -5
Think of kids that were raised in the fellowship, and never professed. There are lots of those around here, and I know quite a few. Most are grateful for their family life among the friends, but just don't buy into the religious beliefs. Now think about people who professed, maybe went to meeting for a few years, and then stopped going. Both of those groups are significantly larger than ex's who post on the Internet. I have to agree with this somewhat. I am one of those kids and while it wasn't a non event while I still lived at home and was forced to attend every meeting and convention, once I left home it was really a non issue. I know of families that professed for a few years and then left and I really don't think it was much of an issue for them either. However, for those who are born and raised in the Truth and they are the only ones in generations of professing relatives, and they do profess for 30 or 40 odd years after they leave home, it's probably an event. I came from a family where my grandparents professed in 1915 so it was really a shock to my parents when I turned away from it and they did everything they could while I lived at home to get me back in the 'fold'. Once I left home, which I did the same day I wrote my final exam in grade 12, I never paid any attention to their efforts to get me to re-profess. I respected that they had to do that, believing what they believed and it hurt me that they truly believed I was going to hell and when they died I was lost to them, but I have lived my own life since I left home. It likely could have been worse if they had shunned me completely like some have had happen, but they didn't so it was more just a frustration that they never got it that I wasn't coming back. But some didn't have it easy. Personally I can't imagine the courage it must take for someone who has professed for 60+ years from birth, and then left. All their friends would be 'the friends' and a way of life, gone. Huge I would imagine! I know a couple that won't quit professing for the very reason they might lose their son and not be allowed to see their grandchildren. Now that's sad because they truly aren't happy anymore and they are in their late 70's. They don't feel they can leave. Thanks for that post, snow. There's no question that the impact of leaving can be huge for an ex-worker, an ex-elder or anyone who has been in the fellowship for a long time, and whose entire family and friends are within the group. This would be true of anyone leaving any church actually.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 11, 2015 23:32:18 GMT -5
Blessing is ot the word I would choose. All in all I think it was a positive experience.Some people professed in form if not in substance.There are many factors. Rational ~ Thanks for your clarification here. I believe one's professing experience probably has a lot to do with one's parents and how they ruled the home-life? I had a number of professing friends in the past whose parents were so strict with them, they lost all interest in any church involvement after leaving home and became totally turned off by all churches after the 2x2's. I reckon if their meeting experience was actually positive, this would not be such a common occurrence among ex-members? Also, the workers seem more preoccupied in keeping the few that remain behind than "evangelizing" for the "lost" in the world, which must contribute its fair share to the dwindling membership? Although I professed for 30 years, my last 14 years after our move South was not encouraging among the friends. I can only think my reason for sticking it out so long was the workers programming of "doom and gloom" for those who depart and become those dreaded "apostates." We went through a number of difficult times alone with little encouragement from the friends or workers and more criticism than anything else. So, the time finally came that I hit my threshold of endurance and departed with no regrets 20 years ago. You've posted on your experience before, and I think the gist of it, let me know if I'm wrong, is that you had 14 very unhappy years in the fellowship, and what kept you in was the fear of going to Hell if you left. That can happen in any church. I know a factor within the friends' group is that they believe, and no doubt, you believed, that they are the only group saved. But picture someone in any Christian church, even a non-exclusive one, who is unhappy with their experience. The fear of a lost eternity plays on their mind, and even though they could go to another denomination, why would they? They'd only feel the same way, and on top of that, lose their family and social connections. I'm sure quite a few garden variety Christians are trapped, the same as you were. In fact, I know so. There's nothing cult-ish about your predicament, that I can see, as your experience is similar to that of many Christians. Now, if you told me that the friends took all your money, blackmailed you and threatened you if you left, I might believe you were in a cult. As it is, it's a little tough to see it.
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Post by snow on Jun 12, 2015 10:37:16 GMT -5
I know a couple that won't quit professing for the very reason they might lose their son and not be allowed to see their grandchildren. Now that's sad because they truly aren't happy anymore and they are in their late 70's. They don't feel they can leave. I think this would be pretty unusual these days Snow. Unusual maybe, but this is within the last couple of years. So it still does happen.
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Post by snow on Jun 12, 2015 10:52:19 GMT -5
I have to agree with this somewhat. I am one of those kids and while it wasn't a non event while I still lived at home and was forced to attend every meeting and convention, once I left home it was really a non issue. I know of families that professed for a few years and then left and I really don't think it was much of an issue for them either. However, for those who are born and raised in the Truth and they are the only ones in generations of professing relatives, and they do profess for 30 or 40 odd years after they leave home, it's probably an event. I came from a family where my grandparents professed in 1915 so it was really a shock to my parents when I turned away from it and they did everything they could while I lived at home to get me back in the 'fold'. Once I left home, which I did the same day I wrote my final exam in grade 12, I never paid any attention to their efforts to get me to re-profess. I respected that they had to do that, believing what they believed and it hurt me that they truly believed I was going to hell and when they died I was lost to them, but I have lived my own life since I left home. It likely could have been worse if they had shunned me completely like some have had happen, but they didn't so it was more just a frustration that they never got it that I wasn't coming back. But some didn't have it easy. Personally I can't imagine the courage it must take for someone who has professed for 60+ years from birth, and then left. All their friends would be 'the friends' and a way of life, gone. Huge I would imagine! I know a couple that won't quit professing for the very reason they might lose their son and not be allowed to see their grandchildren. Now that's sad because they truly aren't happy anymore and they are in their late 70's. They don't feel they can leave. Thanks for that post, snow. There's no question that the impact of leaving can be huge for an ex-worker, an ex-elder or anyone who has been in the fellowship for a long time, and whose entire family and friends are within the group. This would be true of anyone leaving any church actually. I suppose it could be but the one difference I do see with people leaving more traditional churches is that they would have friends outside of that church that they likely associated with. I am thinking now what it would have been like for my parents to leave the f&w's in their 60's and I just can't imagine what it would have been like for them. The only good thing might have been that not very many of their family professed. But my parents never associated with anyone other than the friends on a social level. All of their social group would have been within the group. No exceptions in their case. I honestly think if they had wanted to leave it would have been so traumatic and overwhelming they would have not done it. So the difference I see is the level of not associating with the 'world' that the f&w's group has that I see would make it more difficult. I imagine that the younger generation doesn't adhere so strictly to the 'no friends in the world' criteria so it should become easier, but for my parent generation it's a different scenario. The couple I spoke of in my post were born and raised in the truth, have been in it for over 70 years, have an only son in the truth and feel they can't leave because of his commitment to the truth and their fear that they would lose access to their grandchildren. I imagine it's also because all of their friends are also in the Truth. Though that has dwindled since they started speaking out and probably one of the reasons why they want to leave but don't feel they can. No one is holding a gun to their heads of course, but the fear of losing family you love is a psychological 'gun' in a sense.
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Post by faune on Jun 12, 2015 11:50:03 GMT -5
Rational ~ Thanks for your clarification here. I believe one's professing experience probably has a lot to do with one's parents and how they ruled the home-life? I had a number of professing friends in the past whose parents were so strict with them, they lost all interest in any church involvement after leaving home and became totally turned off by all churches after the 2x2's. I reckon if their meeting experience was actually positive, this would not be such a common occurrence among ex-members? Also, the workers seem more preoccupied in keeping the few that remain behind than "evangelizing" for the "lost" in the world, which must contribute its fair share to the dwindling membership? Although I professed for 30 years, my last 14 years after our move South was not encouraging among the friends. I can only think my reason for sticking it out so long was the workers programming of "doom and gloom" for those who depart and become those dreaded "apostates." We went through a number of difficult times alone with little encouragement from the friends or workers and more criticism than anything else. So, the time finally came that I hit my threshold of endurance and departed with no regrets 20 years ago. You've posted on your experience before, and I think the gist of it, let me know if I'm wrong, is that you had 14 very unhappy years in the fellowship, and what kept you in was the fear of going to Hell if you left. That can happen in any church. I know a factor within the friends' group is that they believe, and no doubt, you believed, that they are the only group saved. But picture someone in any Christian church, even a non-exclusive one, who is unhappy with their experience. The fear of a lost eternity plays on their mind, and even though they could go to another denomination, why would they? They'd only feel the same way, and on top of that, lose their family and social connections. I'm sure quite a few garden variety Christians are trapped, the same as you were. In fact, I know so. There's nothing cult-ish about your predicament, that I can see, as your experience is similar to that of many Christians. Now, if you told me that the friends took all your money, blackmailed you and threatened you if you left, I might believe you were in a cult. As it is, it's a little tough to see it. Rational ~ Actually, I grew tired of the manipulative behaviors of the workers early on when I went away to college and probably would have left back then, if my husband, who I was dating at the time, didn't ask to go to one of the gospel meetings and actually took an interest in the 2x2's. In fact, we broke up for about 9 months after he professed due to my displeasure over his decision, but later got back together and eventually married after college. I sincerely tried to adjust the best I could to the F&W's way of life, especially after our children came along, due to earlier programming. However, my best years in the faith were actually in the Northeast and after we moved to the Deep South, all that changed within months of our arrival. I didn't behave any differently than I did back home, but the folks in our meeting down here decided early on they didn't like our presence in their meeting and we hit the "shun list" quite early. Our efforts to be friendly and get to know them better seems to have turned against us when misfortune hit us due to the recession?
I already relayed earlier our experience with the senior workers who visited our home three months after our move down here, which was far from pleasant. Things afterwards just seemed to go downhill from that point in time. My husband had enough of the treatment and stopped professing and never attended another meeting or church again over his disillusionment with the 2x2's. He's presently an atheist and has been one for quite some time.
I continued on, but was treated more like an outsider for about the next 14 years, when I finally had my fill of it, too, and just left for good after a Sunday Morning Meeting. At the time I knew nothing about their founder or their history. I was just burnt-out from all the BS I endured and had enough for a lifetime. Two years later I was enlightened as to the history, scandals, and made more aware of the difference between the workers' teachings compared to scripture and basic Christianity.
As a result, I didn't appreciate being lied to and deceived by the workers version of the gospel message either. So, perhaps I would fall within the vociferous minority found in Stage III of Jesse's breakdown of apostates along with folks like Cherie, Massey, Cooper, Lewis, and authors of different books, like the Secret Sect, about the 2x2's and their deceptive ways? Personally, nobody appreciates being taken in for years by a system that they now viewed as "deceitful at its core" and they tend to respond accordingly. As a result, I didn't view this major part of my life experience as a "non-event" as described by What Hat, but rather as a major turning point in self awareness and the need to cultivate critical thinking in my future to avoid such pitfalls of deception again. Honestly, I feel honored to be included in the "vociferous minority" who speaks out against spiritual and emotional abuses within these NRM's who follow a different drummer than basic Christianity. Perhaps if I chose the same path as my husband did years ago, I would have nothing to compare the 2x2's to on the outside and would probably be less vocal about it because I simply just wouldn't care either way?
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Post by faune on Jun 12, 2015 12:06:19 GMT -5
Jesse re-posted this excerpt from David Bromley regarding NRM's and the categories that ex-members tend to fall within after leaving these "high control groups." However, I personally couldn't help wondering if the author had any experience himself from being a member of a NRM himself? Perhaps if he had spent half a life-time within such a group, he would have a different perspective on how these groups really work and maintain control over their members in various ways that are not healthy emotionally? I noticed from this Wiki article that most of the writers who contributed to this book consider the stories of apostates to be merely tales of fiction with little substance to them, which is far from the truth, IMHO. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Politics_of_Religious_Apostasy
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Post by What Hat on Jun 12, 2015 13:36:48 GMT -5
Jesse re-posted this excerpt from David Bromley regarding NRM's and the categories that ex-members tend to fall within after leaving these "high control groups." However, I personally couldn't help wondering if the author had any experience himself from being a member of a NRM himself? Perhaps if he had spent half a life-time within such a group, he would have a different perspective on how these groups really work and maintain control over their members in various ways that are not healthy emotionally? This isn't David Bromley's personal opinion or pet project (like CARM.org or some of the other evangelical ideology you're fond of posting). This is a collection of papers by scholars who have studied and discussed the subject. Sociologists are not unanimous in their views on these subjects either, and the scholars in this book are of a certain, tolerant bent. Also, you shouldn't equate NRM and 'high control group'. Not all NRM's are high control groups. For example, Christian anarchism is a NRM, and anarchists are as low control as you can get. Some might say they are out of control. Not so. Someone has inserted a paragraph from Michael Langone that doesn't fit. (This isn't one of the better wiki articles to be sure.) Langone isn't talking about this study, but about "some" just meaning "some people". What the book authors say is that apostates "construct narratives to discredit their former movements". For example, in your case, no one should dispute the factual content of your situation as you describe it. I think you're an honest person and it's an honest telling, and that's not the concern of experts like Bromley. Let me give you an example of a "constructed narrative" though so you can see what they are concerned with. Here is an example: "the friends preach a false Gospel and I'm so glad that I did finally find Jesus after leaving the friends". Now, that's neither true nor false in a factual sense. It could well be an honest report, but it definitely fits the definition of a "narrative constructed to discredit their former movement". I actually read your exit story on the link you provided and quite a bit of it is "constructed narrative" as is the case with many exit stories. Generally, constructed narratives reveal a heightened sense of atrocity, often far beyond what the facts show to a more neutral observer/ reader.
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Post by faune on Jun 12, 2015 14:05:46 GMT -5
Jesse re-posted this excerpt from David Bromley regarding NRM's and the categories that ex-members tend to fall within after leaving these "high control groups." However, I personally couldn't help wondering if the author had any experience himself from being a member of a NRM himself? Perhaps if he had spent half a life-time within such a group, he would have a different perspective on how these groups really work and maintain control over their members in various ways that are not healthy emotionally? This isn't David Bromley's personal opinion or pet project (like CARM.org or some of the other evangelical ideology you're fond of posting). This is a collection of papers by scholars who have studied and discussed the subject. Sociologists are not unanimous in their views on these subjects either, and the scholars in this book are of a certain, tolerant bent. Also, you shouldn't equate NRM and 'high control group'. Not all NRM's are high control groups. For example, Christian anarchism is a NRM, and anarchists are as low control as you can get. Some might say they are out of control. Not so. Someone has inserted a paragraph from Michael Langone that doesn't fit. (This isn't one of the better wiki articles to be sure.) Langone isn't talking about this study, but about "some" just meaning "some people". What the book authors say is that apostates "construct narratives to discredit their former movements". For example, in your case, no one should dispute the factual content of your situation as you describe it. I think you're an honest person and it's an honest telling, and that's not the concern of experts like Bromley. Let me give you an example of a "constructed narrative" though so you can see what they are concerned with. Here is an example: "the friends preach a false Gospel and I'm so glad that I did finally find Jesus after leaving the friends". Now, that's neither true nor false in a factual sense. It could well be an honest report, but it definitely fits the definition of a "narrative constructed to discredit their former movement". I actually read your exit story on the link you provided and quite a bit of it is "constructed narrative" as is the case with many exit stories. Generally, constructed narratives reveal a heightened sense of atrocity, often far beyond what the facts show to a more neutral observer/ reader. What Hat ~ My Exit Letter was written over two years after leaving and becoming more exposed to outside churches and what was taught as the gospel message in 1997. However, my story on line was written in May 2011, after being gone since 1995. It stands to reason that my assessment were the result of comparing the 2x2's against the outside Christian world and what I discovered early on. However, since then I have learned a lot more through these information websites, such as Cherie's, and perhaps see the 2x2's through a much clearer lens than earlier? However, there was nothing in my professing experience that I would desire to go back and re-experience. How about you? Would you go back if the workers invited you back? Your new liberty to be yourself and express your opinions freely might just be one thing you might not enjoy giving up, although you like the quaintness of the meetings? My point here is that its the imbalance of power within the 2x2's where you must keep things to yourself and put on a front of compliance with the workers that I find distasteful and would have no desire repeating.
Also, regarding Bromley's own statements regarding NRM's, I honestly believe he has no real experience with involvement with such groups and all he seems to pass along is what others like him view to be the same. In my opinion, if you have never walked in another person's shoes, you really cannot describe the experience or understand to what extent it affects people's lives in general? The fact that many of the friends who leave require counseling to adapt to the changes that follow should speak for itself of its hold upon one's psyche? I have never attended a church since the 2x2's that has affected me in such a way emotionally. If I didn't like the atmosphere, I just moved on to another that was more inviting and suited my tastes. Fortunately, I did eventually find another church body after 8 years where I felt comfortable in attending and joining and I still enjoy the fellowship. It may be Baptist, but it's not one of those off-the-wall fundamentalist breed of Baptist churches that make the headlines for their fanatical prejudices, like Westboro Baptist.
insider.foxnews.com/2015/06/11/vet-throws-coffee-westboro-baptist-church-member-who-protested-beau-biden-funeral
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Post by fixit on Jun 12, 2015 17:31:57 GMT -5
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Post by faune on Jun 12, 2015 17:46:27 GMT -5
Thanks Fixit! I deleted my previous link when I noticed the same and inserted your correct link. However, these protests at the funerals of war veterans by the Westboro Baptist Church is so distasteful and have been going on for some time, including when bodies came home from war. I honestly don't blame that guy for throwing coffee at one of the protesters for their actions. These protestors take things way to far and show little respect for the family members mourning their lost loved ones! They come across as bullies and bigots to me by their actions.
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Post by snow on Jun 12, 2015 18:08:16 GMT -5
They also picket gay funerals. I don't understand the level people would have to lower themselves to in order to picket a funeral. I don't understand it and I'm not sure it would be a good thing if I did understand it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2015 18:19:45 GMT -5
They also picket gay funerals. I don't understand the level people would have to lower themselves to in order to picket a funeral. I don't understand it and I'm not sure it would be a good thing if I did understand it. they believe in their warped way that it is going to be a testimony against the offender...
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Post by snow on Jun 12, 2015 19:35:00 GMT -5
They also picket gay funerals. I don't understand the level people would have to lower themselves to in order to picket a funeral. I don't understand it and I'm not sure it would be a good thing if I did understand it. they believe in their warped way that it is going to be a testimony against the offender... Yes, they seem to think it's important, but it's so twisted imo. I was always under the impression Christianity stood for compassion and love but I am slowly learning that it's more complex than that with some groups.
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Post by faune on Jun 12, 2015 20:28:36 GMT -5
they believe in their warped way that it is going to be a testimony against the offender... Yes, they seem to think it's important, but it's so twisted imo. I was always under the impression Christianity stood for compassion and love but I am slowly learning that it's more complex than that with some groups. Snow ~ Twisted is the word for it! Perhaps they should join the skinheads with so much hatred motivating their actions?
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Post by What Hat on Jun 12, 2015 22:53:36 GMT -5
You've posted on your experience before, and I think the gist of it, let me know if I'm wrong, is that you had 14 very unhappy years in the fellowship, and what kept you in was the fear of going to Hell if you left. That can happen in any church. I know a factor within the friends' group is that they believe, and no doubt, you believed, that they are the only group saved. But picture someone in any Christian church, even a non-exclusive one, who is unhappy with their experience. The fear of a lost eternity plays on their mind, and even though they could go to another denomination, why would they? They'd only feel the same way, and on top of that, lose their family and social connections. I'm sure quite a few garden variety Christians are trapped, the same as you were. In fact, I know so. There's nothing cult-ish about your predicament, that I can see, as your experience is similar to that of many Christians. Now, if you told me that the friends took all your money, blackmailed you and threatened you if you left, I might believe you were in a cult. As it is, it's a little tough to see it. Rational ~ Actually, I grew tired of the manipulative behaviors of the workers early on when I went away to college and probably would have left back then, if my husband, who I was dating at the time, didn't ask to go to one of the gospel meetings and actually took an interest in the 2x2's. In fact, we broke up for about 9 months after he professed due to my displeasure over his decision, but later got back together and eventually married after college. I sincerely tried to adjust the best I could to the F&W's way of life, especially after our children came along, due to earlier programming. However, my best years in the faith were actually in the Northeast and after we moved to the Deep South, all that changed within months of our arrival. I didn't behave any differently than I did back home, but the folks in our meeting down here decided early on they didn't like our presence in their meeting and we hit the "shun list" quite early. Our efforts to be friendly and get to know them better seems to have turned against us when misfortune hit us due to the recession?
I already relayed earlier our experience with the senior workers who visited our home three months after our move down here, which was far from pleasant. Things afterwards just seemed to go downhill from that point in time. My husband had enough of the treatment and stopped professing and never attended another meeting or church again over his disillusionment with the 2x2's. He's presently an atheist and has been one for quite some time.
I continued on, but was treated more like an outsider for about the next 14 years, when I finally had my fill of it, too, and just left for good after a Sunday Morning Meeting. At the time I knew nothing about their founder or their history. I was just burnt-out from all the BS I endured and had enough for a lifetime. Two years later I was enlightened as to the history, scandals, and made more aware of the difference between the workers' teachings compared to scripture and basic Christianity.
As a result, I didn't appreciate being lied to and deceived by the workers version of the gospel message either. So, perhaps I would fall within the vociferous minority found in Stage III of Jesse's breakdown of apostates along with folks like Cherie, Massey, Cooper, Lewis, and authors of different books, like the Secret Sect, about the 2x2's and their deceptive ways? Personally, nobody appreciates being taken in for years by a system that they now viewed as "deceitful at its core" and they tend to respond accordingly. As a result, I didn't view this major part of my life experience as a "non-event" as described by What Hat, but rather as a major turning point in self awareness and the need to cultivate critical thinking in my future to avoid such pitfalls of deception again. Honestly, I feel honored to be included in the "vociferous minority" who speaks out against spiritual and emotional abuses within these NRM's who follow a different drummer than basic Christianity. Perhaps if I chose the same path as my husband did years ago, I would have nothing to compare the 2x2's to on the outside and would probably be less vocal about it because I simply just wouldn't care either way?
Where did I describe your exit as a non-event? Clearly it is a major or type III event for a vociferous minority of ex's including you. I've never said otherwise. I wonder how much you can blame the friends though when you kept at something you hated so much for 14 years. Sounds like you should blame them for 1 year and take responsibility for the other 13. Okay, you were afraid of going to Hell if you left, but why would you believe workers who you said were liars and deceivers? Just trying to understand the inconsistency here.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 12, 2015 22:58:31 GMT -5
This isn't David Bromley's personal opinion or pet project (like CARM.org or some of the other evangelical ideology you're fond of posting). This is a collection of papers by scholars who have studied and discussed the subject. Sociologists are not unanimous in their views on these subjects either, and the scholars in this book are of a certain, tolerant bent. Also, you shouldn't equate NRM and 'high control group'. Not all NRM's are high control groups. For example, Christian anarchism is a NRM, and anarchists are as low control as you can get. Some might say they are out of control. Not so. Someone has inserted a paragraph from Michael Langone that doesn't fit. (This isn't one of the better wiki articles to be sure.) Langone isn't talking about this study, but about "some" just meaning "some people". What the book authors say is that apostates "construct narratives to discredit their former movements". For example, in your case, no one should dispute the factual content of your situation as you describe it. I think you're an honest person and it's an honest telling, and that's not the concern of experts like Bromley. Let me give you an example of a "constructed narrative" though so you can see what they are concerned with. Here is an example: "the friends preach a false Gospel and I'm so glad that I did finally find Jesus after leaving the friends". Now, that's neither true nor false in a factual sense. It could well be an honest report, but it definitely fits the definition of a "narrative constructed to discredit their former movement". I actually read your exit story on the link you provided and quite a bit of it is "constructed narrative" as is the case with many exit stories. Generally, constructed narratives reveal a heightened sense of atrocity, often far beyond what the facts show to a more neutral observer/ reader. What Hat ~ My Exit Letter was written over two years after leaving and becoming more exposed to outside churches and what was taught as the gospel message in 1997. However, my story on line was written in May 2011, after being gone since 1995. It stands to reason that my assessment were the result of comparing the 2x2's against the outside Christian world and what I discovered early on. However, since then I have learned a lot more through these information websites, such as Cherie's, and perhaps see the 2x2's through a much clearer lens than earlier? However, there was nothing in my professing experience that I would desire to go back and re-experience. How about you? Would you go back if the workers invited you back? Your new liberty to be yourself and express your opinions freely might just be one thing you might not enjoy giving up, although you like the quaintness of the meetings? My point here is that its the imbalance of power within the 2x2's where you must keep things to yourself and put on a front of compliance with the workers that I find distasteful and would have no desire repeating.
Also, regarding Bromley's own statements regarding NRM's, I honestly believe he has no real experience with involvement with such groups and all he seems to pass along is what others like him view to be the same. In my opinion, if you have never walked in another person's shoes, you really cannot describe the experience or understand to what extent it affects people's lives in general? The fact that many of the friends who leave require counseling to adapt to the changes that follow should speak for itself of its hold upon one's psyche? I have never attended a church since the 2x2's that has affected me in such a way emotionally. If I didn't like the atmosphere, I just moved on to another that was more inviting and suited my tastes. Fortunately, I did eventually find another church body after 8 years where I felt comfortable in attending and joining and I still enjoy the fellowship. It may be Baptist, but it's not one of those off-the-wall fundamentalist breed of Baptist churches that make the headlines for their fanatical prejudices, like Westboro Baptist.
insider.foxnews.com/2015/06/11/vet-throws-coffee-westboro-baptist-church-member-who-protested-beau-biden-funeral
And which of Bromley's statements do you take issue with, and what do you find wrong with them?
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Post by faune on Jun 13, 2015 16:51:14 GMT -5
What Hat ~ In response to your questions below, I don't blame the F&W's for my sticking it out for 30 years within the 2x2's ~ I blame myself for not being more discerning and following my gut early on. I don't believe you ever described my exit from the group as a "non-event" ~ instead you seemingly indicated that the majority of people exiting would be considered as "non-events" within their lives. Personally, I don't believe that is true for somebody B&R or who has spent half their lifetime or more within the 2x2's before exiting. The adjustments are many afterwards for those who hung in there for many years before leaving.
As far as Mr. Bromley's book goes, I have not read it, so I cannot judge its contents. However, from the Wiki preview of the book, I would guess few of these "experts" have spent much time within NRM's to know exactly how they operate due to the generalizations they made concerning ex-members?
For example, when you read the books written by ex-members, you get a good picture of what others have experienced within the 2x2's and much of it you can personally relate to yourself. The same goes for the descriptions given of behavioral control on these cult awareness sites. You can tell from the contents of their writings, they know what they are talking about, because their description and experiences ring true and resonate with your own experience. The same goes for the "narratives" or testimonials found on Cherie's TLC public site regarding why they left the 2x2's and books like Reflections and Reflected Truth.
Personally, I'm thankful today that I have moved on in my spiritual walk and learned a number of valuable lessons from my past exposure to the 2x2's. I met a number of fine people within the fellowship over the years as well as some that were not so fine. Perhaps if my last 14 years were more pleasant and not so isolating due to shunning, I would be found within one of the first two groups and not among the "vociferous minority" listed earlier?
What Hat inquired...
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Post by Gene on Jun 13, 2015 17:44:11 GMT -5
I dated a brunette once who told me her hair went totally gray in her twenties. Later she became a blond. Did her name begin with "Lady" and end with "Clairol"?
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hberry
Senior Member
Posts: 743
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Post by hberry on Jun 13, 2015 18:07:33 GMT -5
I dated a brunette once who told me her hair went totally gray in her twenties. Later she became a blond. Did her name begin with "Lady" and end with "Clairol"? The other option would begin with "Lady" and end with "GaGa"
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Post by What Hat on Jun 13, 2015 22:35:05 GMT -5
Thanks for that post, snow. There's no question that the impact of leaving can be huge for an ex-worker, an ex-elder or anyone who has been in the fellowship for a long time, and whose entire family and friends are within the group. This would be true of anyone leaving any church actually. I suppose it could be but the one difference I do see with people leaving more traditional churches is that they would have friends outside of that church that they likely associated with. I am thinking now what it would have been like for my parents to leave the f&w's in their 60's and I just can't imagine what it would have been like for them. The only good thing might have been that not very many of their family professed. But my parents never associated with anyone other than the friends on a social level. All of their social group would have been within the group. No exceptions in their case. I honestly think if they had wanted to leave it would have been so traumatic and overwhelming they would have not done it. So the difference I see is the level of not associating with the 'world' that the f&w's group has that I see would make it more difficult. I imagine that the younger generation doesn't adhere so strictly to the 'no friends in the world' criteria so it should become easier, but for my parent generation it's a different scenario. The couple I spoke of in my post were born and raised in the truth, have been in it for over 70 years, have an only son in the truth and feel they can't leave because of his commitment to the truth and their fear that they would lose access to their grandchildren. I imagine it's also because all of their friends are also in the Truth. Though that has dwindled since they started speaking out and probably one of the reasons why they want to leave but don't feel they can. No one is holding a gun to their heads of course, but the fear of losing family you love is a psychological 'gun' in a sense. In the type of church I was mentally referencing, most of the social orbit would be within that denomination. I think that would be true of the Dutch (Christian) Reformed and various Mennonite communities that I'm familiar with. But you're right - that makes a big difference.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 13, 2015 22:52:39 GMT -5
What Hat ~ In response to your questions below, I don't blame the F&W's for my sticking it out for 30 years within the 2x2's ~ I blame myself for not being more discerning and following my gut early on. I don't believe you ever described my exit from the group as a "non-event" ~ instead you seemingly indicated that the majority of people exiting would be considered as "non-events" within their lives. Personally, I don't believe that is true for somebody B&R or who has spent half their lifetime or more within the 2x2's before exiting. The adjustments are many afterwards for those who hung in there for many years before leaving.
As far as Mr. Bromley's book goes, I have not read it, so I cannot judge its contents. However, from the Wiki preview of the book, I would guess few of these "experts" have spent much time within NRM's to know exactly how they operate due to the generalizations they made concerning ex-members?
For example, when you read the books written by ex-members, you get a good picture of what others have experienced within the 2x2's and much of it you can personally relate to yourself. The same goes for the descriptions given of behavioral control on these cult awareness sites. You can tell from the contents of their writings, they know what they are talking about, because their description and experiences ring true and resonate with your own experience. The same goes for the "narratives" or testimonials found on Cherie's TLC public site regarding why they left the 2x2's and books like Reflections and Reflected Truth.
Personally, I'm thankful today that I have moved on in my spiritual walk and learned a number of valuable lessons from my past exposure to the 2x2's. I met a number of fine people within the fellowship over the years as well as some that were not so fine. Perhaps if my last 14 years were more pleasant and not so isolating due to shunning, I would be found within one of the first two groups and not among the "vociferous minority" listed earlier?
What Hat inquired... Thanks for that response, faune. I was feeling for a few posts we weren't engaging and I found that frustrating. I'm relieved to know that you know that I know your years among the friends weren't easy ones. So, I do see Bromley's characterisation of the three types as accurate and as I (and Jesse) also have experience living in an NRM, I think that we can conclude that Bromley's apparent lack of experience is not the issue. At least some people with experience agree with him. I go back to this idea of a "constructed narrative" and the way that ex's describe the friends theologically to make them sound bad... that they don't have the true Gospel, don't understand grace, et cetera. The actual facts in these exits don't speak to the friends being all that bad a group on the whole, which isn't to say some nasty things don't happen. The question is how we explain and understand those things to happen... and I don't understand them as products of a cult system. I'm going to begin a thread in the next week or so to defend that point of view. I'm not a fan of exit letters. The ones that I've read, including yours I'm afraid, have the effect of slamming the door on the way out. No one wants to be "schooled" on their deeply felt religious beliefs and that's what many of the exit letters do. When you say you were shunned, was that after the exit letter or before? I have a feeling, already before that. Finally, you asked me about going back, and why I wouldn't, and the short answer is that our respective outlooks are not compatible. Nathan asked me somewhere, where I was standing on things these days, and I may elaborate when I'm back on my actual computer with a good connection.
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Post by Lee on Jun 14, 2015 9:30:50 GMT -5
I dated a brunette once who told me her hair went totally gray in her twenties. Later she became a blond. Did her name begin with "Lady" and end with "Clairol"? LOL. I'm sure they were acquainted!
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Post by Lee on Jun 14, 2015 10:01:39 GMT -5
Christ certainly wasn't anti-social, but he respected his personal right to privacy, privilege, and preference for his own thoughts, mind, and intimacy with The Father. Earth has never known an organized authority that does not pose some threat to this prerogative. Any authority that presents otherwise is a cult. Are the workers presenting otherwise? Are they one example of an organized authority making total claims on our lives? Isn't it the corporate state and agency's presumption and influence that is so troublesome?
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Post by snow on Jun 14, 2015 11:42:57 GMT -5
I suppose it could be but the one difference I do see with people leaving more traditional churches is that they would have friends outside of that church that they likely associated with. I am thinking now what it would have been like for my parents to leave the f&w's in their 60's and I just can't imagine what it would have been like for them. The only good thing might have been that not very many of their family professed. But my parents never associated with anyone other than the friends on a social level. All of their social group would have been within the group. No exceptions in their case. I honestly think if they had wanted to leave it would have been so traumatic and overwhelming they would have not done it. So the difference I see is the level of not associating with the 'world' that the f&w's group has that I see would make it more difficult. I imagine that the younger generation doesn't adhere so strictly to the 'no friends in the world' criteria so it should become easier, but for my parent generation it's a different scenario. The couple I spoke of in my post were born and raised in the truth, have been in it for over 70 years, have an only son in the truth and feel they can't leave because of his commitment to the truth and their fear that they would lose access to their grandchildren. I imagine it's also because all of their friends are also in the Truth. Though that has dwindled since they started speaking out and probably one of the reasons why they want to leave but don't feel they can. No one is holding a gun to their heads of course, but the fear of losing family you love is a psychological 'gun' in a sense. In the type of church I was mentally referencing, most of the social orbit would be within that denomination. I think that would be true of the Dutch (Christian) Reformed and various Mennonite communities that I'm familiar with. But you're right - that makes a big difference. Okay, I see. Yes any group where the social activity is limited to church members would make it more of an 'event' to leave for obvious reasons. I have watched a couple of documentaries recently made by Hutterite and Amish kids who left and their struggles. Many end up going back because it's just too lonely.
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Post by slowtosee on Jun 14, 2015 15:05:48 GMT -5
Not sure if this "fits" in any of these discussions, but I appreciated Amanda Lindhout's response to the arrest of one of her captors , this week, who administered atrocities to her while captive in Somalia. "true power is derived from kindness". Alvin www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/amanda-lindhout-breaks-silence-after-rcmp-arrest-suspect-in-her-brutal-kidnapping/ar-BBl8dpQ?ocid=AARDHP"I’m grateful that this man has been arrested. I am happy that he will be called upon in court to answer for his role in the kidnapping. My healing and recovery, however, has never been contingent on this form of justice. I’ve spent the last couple of days feeling extremely emotional about the arrest, contending with the brutal memories it calls up. But losing my freedom in Somalia taught me a lot about how to get it back. Every day, I make the choice to move forward and to remember that true power is derived from kindness. In the end, Ali Omar Ader’s fate has nothing to do with mine."
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Post by faune on Jun 15, 2015 0:47:10 GMT -5
What Hat ~ To answer your earlier question, the shunning in meeting and exclusion from potluck gatherings began shortly after my husband left the fold in Oct. 1981 and continued pretty much up until I left in April 1995. However, it was only some of the folks in our assigned meeting that put up walls ~ not all of the friends in our area. I suspect that part of it was related to my husband leaving the 2x2's due our rather unpleasant senior workers' visit about three months after we arrived down South? Although we tried to make friends with some of the folks in our area shortly after arriving and invited them to our home, it seemed that some had already formed their opinions about us and decided we wouldn't fit well within their "inner circle" of friends. Testimonies for a while also reflected their displeasure.
However, I continued on thinking that things would change over time. Unfortunately, that day never came with some in our immediate meeting and I just learned to accept the "status quo" within our area. As a result, I cultivated some good Christian friends on the outside that took up the slack for the "friends" inside the fold and they are still my friends today years after leaving the 2x2's.
Honestly, it felt like going from an area where we were embraced by the friends to one where we were only tolerated and not well received by them, perhaps due to cultural differences? However, even after I just stopped attending meetings in 1995 without a word, neither the friends or workers ever contacted me again. So, I guess I wasn't missed very much after departing the fold myself later on along with our children, who never did profess?
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Post by Greg on Jun 15, 2015 1:48:14 GMT -5
However, even after I just stopped attending meetings in 1995 without a word, neither the friends or workers ever contacted me again, so I guess I wasn't very missed after departing the fold myself later on along with our children, who never did profess. There could be a fear factor . . . not knowing why you left . . . not sure if they want to know why you left because, well, you left. They know that you know how to contact someone if you want to discuss returning. Might be difficult for some non-professing spouses to be friendly with the friends and for the friends to be friendly with such a spouse. If there was tension before you left, likely would there be less tension or animosity or anything negative towards the friends after you left? Could be that anyone knowing a good bit about the way and chooses to not profess seems less friendly and is less easy to befriend (deemed to have judged the way not of Jesus?) than someone who knows little of the way.
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Post by faune on Jun 15, 2015 11:08:17 GMT -5
However, even after I just stopped attending meetings in 1995 without a word, neither the friends or workers ever contacted me again, so I guess I wasn't very missed after departing the fold myself later on along with our children, who never did profess. There could be a fear factor . . . not knowing why you left . . . not sure if they want to know why you left because, well, you left. They know that you know how to contact someone if you want to discuss returning. Might be difficult for some non-professing spouses to be friendly with the friends and for the friends to be friendly with such a spouse. If there was tension before you left, likely would there be less tension or animosity or anything negative towards the friends after you left? Could be that anyone knowing a good bit about the way and chooses to not profess seems less friendly and is less easy to befriend (deemed to have judged the way not of Jesus?) than someone who knows little of the way. Greg ~ I guess there could have been a number of things that might have affected the cold shoulder treatment of some of the friends? However, for workers to show the same attitude and not even try to contact me after I left, seemed to convince me how little affection any of them had for us. Honestly, I wonder to this day why I even bothered writing an Exit Letter over two years later to explain my sentiments and to reach out to them one last time? It all seems like such a waste of time today due to the indifference we experienced firsthand. Even our children wondered why I bothered continuing in meetings so long and relayed their displeasure of the whole situation. But, I'm thankful to say that they do attend church today and didn't let it color their concept of God in their minds, which often happens to those who leave the fold.
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