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Post by What Hat on Jun 5, 2015 18:26:05 GMT -5
Faune, thanks for this answer which provides some insight. I don't wish to pry too much into what is a delicate and personal situation, but when you say that they felt you were too liberal and not fitting in - was there anything specific in their view, or do you think that the viewpoint was just unfair and really "out of thin air". I know that the latter does happen .. for example, Al van der Myden's story which is on the record here, but also others with which I'm acquainted. What Hat ~ I never asked the workers to spell why they felt we would "fit in" better back where we came from, but just assumed they considered us Yankees from the North and perhaps too liberal for the ultra conservative area we had moved to in July 1981. However, this shunning was only something I experienced within the 2x2's and not on the outside of the group, where people were a lot more accepting and friendly. However, on the bright side, I made some good Christian friends on the outside of the fold and enjoy their friendship still today, who weren't so exclusive. Cliqueishness, pettiness and social climbing exist everywhere in every church. But here is what I think is different about a group like the friends. The workers are revered by the friends moreso than the clergy in many churches. For example, I don't remember my parents having "minister" pictures in the home. Now, nothing inherently wrong with the regard in which friends place the workers. But it creates a power relationship or imbalance because the workers have a much higher social status within the friends' group. Wherever you have that kind of imbalance it can be exploited. It won't necessarily be exploited, may never be exploited, but it seems like, in your case, the friends turned the workers against you. I assume there was no specific problem that the workers came to see you about. Who knows? You might have just rubbed some people the wrong way, and they turned on you. I'll provide a similar example of a power imbalance at work. Last night I watched a documentary on Lance Armstrong. The guy was not only a liar, but a vicious and odious sociopath who undertook vicious personal attacks and tried to ruin the reputation of anyone who raised questions about his use of performance enhancing drugs. It took a long time for the truth to come out and for him to be knocked off his perch because he exploited his "hero" status. It's interesting how we give our heroes a free pass and turn a blind eye to suspicions, whether those heroes are workers or cycle champions. Having watched the documentary, I hope some day we find out who called off the federal investigation into Armstrong. They had the complete goods on him and someone killed the investigation. In the end, the US anti-doping agency finally brought him down.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 5, 2015 18:32:50 GMT -5
I have no doubt faune was hassled about it, but it's not a point of doctrine, generally. Nothing is, generally. Except maybe the meetings and ministry. Maybe. In any conservative church certain behaviours will earn you a "visit". And it might be with good intentions. Adultery, drinking, spousal abuse ... in many churches a concerned clergy might have a visit with you. In the more conservative churches you can add items like wearing a dress with buttons, untrimmed beard, mowing the lawn on Sunday, trimming one's bangs and not wearing the correct kind of stocking, or heavens to mercy, not wearing any at all.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 18:36:24 GMT -5
Faune, thanks for this answer which provides some insight. I don't wish to pry too much into what is a delicate and personal situation, but when you say that they felt you were too liberal and not fitting in - was there anything specific in their view, or do you think that the viewpoint was just unfair and really "out of thin air". I know that the latter does happen .. for example, Al van der Myden's story which is on the record here, but also others with which I'm acquainted. What Hat ~ I never asked the workers to spell why they felt we would "fit in" better back where we came from, but just assumed they considered us Yankees from the North and perhaps too liberal for the ultra conservative area we had moved to in July 1981. However, this shunning was only something I experienced within the 2x2's and not on the outside of the group, where people were a lot more accepting and friendly. However, on the bright side, I made some good Christian friends on the outside of the fold and enjoy their friendship still today, who weren't so exclusive. as to women working read about the virtuous woman in proverbs 31, she worked and was considered okay...
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Post by Greg on Jun 5, 2015 18:38:17 GMT -5
Nothing is, generally. Except maybe the meetings and ministry. Maybe. In any conservative church certain behaviours will earn you a "visit". And it might be with good intentions. Adultery, drinking, spousal abuse ... in many churches a concerned clergy might have a visit with you. In the more conservative churches you can add items like wearing a dress with buttons, untrimmed beard, mowing the lawn on Sunday, trimming one's bangs and not wearing the correct kind of stocking, or heavens to mercy, not wearing any at all Sorry. again. I was not commenting on the issues of dress and behavior. My comment was on points of doctrine.
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Post by withlove on Jun 5, 2015 18:50:13 GMT -5
This is interesting...most of you probably have heard it before... the error of the long-haired Jesus Pagan god Serapis (Egyptian Zeus)...said to be adopted by Christians as what Christ looked like, and where the name Jesus derived from. I only got through 10 paragraphs before my skepticism meter went to 11. Also, I have never seen him depicted like the woolly mammoth, Serapis, above. Samson maybe. Haha! I couldn't read it all either. Too much text. Was hoping other people would give reviews.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 5, 2015 19:57:13 GMT -5
Yes there should be evidence of God working in your life, but that evidence is NOT women having to dress like sister workers, or not wearing jewellery or make-up, those things are man made rules. I wasn't thinking of how I dress when I mentioned 'the way I behave'. I was referring to the spirit I show, the way I treat other people, and also about wanting to have a part in fellowship with those who feel the same way. If those things were lacking then the way I dress would be irrelevant. However, I do believe that the closer we are to God, the less we are concerned about adorning the flesh. If I may quote what Ross posted - "I think we need to decrease in every way possible so that Christ might increase." - this is something that I feel would apply to every aspect of my life, not just the unseen parts. I wouldn't say that modest clothing etc is a man-made rule. We read in Timothy about women adorning themselves in modest apparel, and not wearing jewellery or expensive clothes. Nobody tells me what to wear, but I listen to my conscience. As for dressing like a sister worker, one has to use common sense and be age-appropriate. There are sister workers my age or younger whose clothes I would be happy to borrow, but I don't wear the same clothes as someone old enough to be my grandmother. Felicity, how did the children of Israel make the golden calf if they didn't have jewellery ?
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Post by Greg on Jun 5, 2015 20:07:38 GMT -5
I wasn't thinking of how I dress when I mentioned 'the way I behave'. I was referring to the spirit I show, the way I treat other people, and also about wanting to have a part in fellowship with those who feel the same way. If those things were lacking then the way I dress would be irrelevant. However, I do believe that the closer we are to God, the less we are concerned about adorning the flesh. If I may quote what Ross posted - "I think we need to decrease in every way possible so that Christ might increase." - this is something that I feel would apply to every aspect of my life, not just the unseen parts. I wouldn't say that modest clothing etc is a man-made rule. We read in Timothy about women adorning themselves in modest apparel, and not wearing jewellery or expensive clothes. Nobody tells me what to wear, but I listen to my conscience. As for dressing like a sister worker, one has to use common sense and be age-appropriate. There are sister workers my age or younger whose clothes I would be happy to borrow, but I don't wear the same clothes as someone old enough to be my grandmother. Felicity, how did the children of Israel make the golden calf if they didn't have jewellery ? Fillings.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 5, 2015 20:10:40 GMT -5
They must have had a lot of bad teeth then !!!!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 20:11:09 GMT -5
I wasn't thinking of how I dress when I mentioned 'the way I behave'. I was referring to the spirit I show, the way I treat other people, and also about wanting to have a part in fellowship with those who feel the same way. If those things were lacking then the way I dress would be irrelevant. However, I do believe that the closer we are to God, the less we are concerned about adorning the flesh. If I may quote what Ross posted - "I think we need to decrease in every way possible so that Christ might increase." - this is something that I feel would apply to every aspect of my life, not just the unseen parts. I wouldn't say that modest clothing etc is a man-made rule. We read in Timothy about women adorning themselves in modest apparel, and not wearing jewellery or expensive clothes. Nobody tells me what to wear, but I listen to my conscience. As for dressing like a sister worker, one has to use common sense and be age-appropriate. There are sister workers my age or younger whose clothes I would be happy to borrow, but I don't wear the same clothes as someone old enough to be my grandmother. Felicity, how did the children of Israel make the golden calf if they didn't have jewellery ? the comment in timothy came well after the golden calf...
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 5, 2015 20:11:27 GMT -5
The Golden Calf 32 When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, “Come, make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.”
2 Aaron answered them, “Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me.” 3 So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. 4 He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.”
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 5, 2015 20:12:53 GMT -5
Felicity, how did the children of Israel make the golden calf if they didn't have jewellery ? the comment in timothy came well after the golden calf... So does that mean you only take what suits from the Old Testament ?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 20:19:19 GMT -5
the comment in timothy came well after the golden calf... So does that mean you only take what suits from the Old Testament ? i'm not sure what jump your trying to make from them wearing jewelry in the OT to Paul saying not to in the NT the change is pretty clear...
1Ti_2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
one might note that jewelry made the golden calf and thereafter might have been frowned upon by all...
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Post by snow on Jun 5, 2015 20:33:12 GMT -5
Religions change. It's a known fact.
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Post by slowtosee on Jun 5, 2015 20:58:52 GMT -5
Gold always had positive attributes, it seems like , in old and new testament. Maybe like real estate, it's all about location. Ok to have gold watches on wrist but not around neck or ankles. Teeth. Yes, it's ok there. Think location location location. That is what counts. Not the type of material or metal or even pre opus pearls. Location. Alvin
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 5, 2015 21:14:30 GMT -5
So does that mean you only take what suits from the Old Testament ? i'm not sure what jump your trying to make from them wearing jewelry in the OT to Paul saying not to in the NT the change is pretty clear...
1Ti_2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
one might note that jewelry made the golden calf and thereafter might have been frowned upon by all...
I would say if you believe everything that is written in the Bible, jewellery did make the golden calf and then to say thereafter it MIGHT have been frowned upon is a way to justify what you want to believe ! Its called picking & choosing what you want to justify man-made rules !
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 22:13:21 GMT -5
i'm not sure what jump your trying to make from them wearing jewelry in the OT to Paul saying not to in the NT the change is pretty clear...
1Ti_2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
one might note that jewelry made the golden calf and thereafter might have been frowned upon by all...
I would say if you believe everything that is written in the Bible, jewellery did make the golden calf and then to say thereafter it MIGHT have been frowned upon is a way to justify what you want to believe ! Its called picking & choosing what you want to justify man-made rules ! did you miss what paul had to say? unless of course your gonna disregard paul...
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 5, 2015 22:53:21 GMT -5
I know what Paul said Wally, but what did Jesus say ? So do you disregard the Golden Calf because its Old Testament ? Or do you disregard it because it contradicts what Paul said ?
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Post by What Hat on Jun 5, 2015 23:10:49 GMT -5
In any conservative church certain behaviours will earn you a "visit". And it might be with good intentions. Adultery, drinking, spousal abuse ... in many churches a concerned clergy might have a visit with you. In the more conservative churches you can add items like wearing a dress with buttons, untrimmed beard, mowing the lawn on Sunday, trimming one's bangs and not wearing the correct kind of stocking, or heavens to mercy, not wearing any at all Sorry. again. I was not commenting on the issues of dress and behavior. My comment was on points of doctrine. Okay, that's cool, but my comment before your comment was on doctrine inclusive of dress and behaviour.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 5, 2015 23:12:50 GMT -5
What Hat ~ I never asked the workers to spell why they felt we would "fit in" better back where we came from, but just assumed they considered us Yankees from the North and perhaps too liberal for the ultra conservative area we had moved to in July 1981. However, this shunning was only something I experienced within the 2x2's and not on the outside of the group, where people were a lot more accepting and friendly. However, on the bright side, I made some good Christian friends on the outside of the fold and enjoy their friendship still today, who weren't so exclusive. as to women working read about the virtuous woman in proverbs 31, she worked and was considered okay... Sure, and what about the non-virtuous woman. Rahab was a "working" woman, and she was considered okay too.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 23:19:53 GMT -5
I know what Paul said Wally, but what did Jesus say ? So do you disregard the Golden Calf because its Old Testament ? Or do you disregard it because it contradicts what Paul said ? Jesus spoke through Paul on the matter...
have you fallen so far that you would now disregard Paul? whats next Jesus too? John? Matthew? Peter?
so they picked up jewelry in Egypt they probably picked up a lot of things while they were there that doesn't make it right in Gods eyes...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 23:24:35 GMT -5
as to women working read about the virtuous woman in proverbs 31, she worked and was considered okay... Sure, and what about the non-virtuous woman. Rahab was a "working" woman, and she was considered okay too. well she did have to stay out of the camp of isreal for awhile after the fall of Jericho...
well I really didn't want to compare faune working outside of the home with a harlot but you can if you want...
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 5, 2015 23:44:56 GMT -5
I know what Paul said Wally, but what did Jesus say ? So do you disregard the Golden Calf because its Old Testament ? Or do you disregard it because it contradicts what Paul said ? Jesus spoke through Paul on the matter...
have you fallen so far that you would now disregard Paul? whats next Jesus too? John? Matthew? Peter?
so they picked up jewelry in Egypt they probably picked up a lot of things while they were there that doesn't make it right in Gods eyes...
Did Jesus speak through Paul ? Or did Paul put his own slant on things ? You are missing the point which is the children of Israel had jewellery to make the golden calf. But because you want to justify women not wearing jewellery you use what Paul said. One contradicts the other so the usually thing is said "Well that was Old Testament" so do you believe the whole Bible or just the parts that justify your belief ?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 23:56:19 GMT -5
Jesus spoke through Paul on the matter...
have you fallen so far that you would now disregard Paul? whats next Jesus too? John? Matthew? Peter?
so they picked up jewelry in Egypt they probably picked up a lot of things while they were there that doesn't make it right in Gods eyes...
Did Jesus speak through Paul ? Or did Paul put his own slant on things ? You are missing the point which is the children of Israel had jewellery to make the golden calf. But because you want to justify women not wearing jewellery you use what Paul said. One contradicts the other so the usually thing is said "Well that was Old Testament" so do you believe the whole Bible or just the parts that justify your belief ? ah so I see you do disregard Paul...that's telling...one might question whether you believe the WHOLE bible or not...
I don't see it contradicting the other at all. no more than first offering animals up as sacrifices and then ending it with Christ. no more than having a temple building and then not having a temple building...
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 6, 2015 0:09:30 GMT -5
Wally I do not believe the Bible is inerrant, there have been so many translations and things changed to suit over the years. Did Jesus say anything about jewellery ? Didn't God see the children of Israel had jewellery ?
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Post by fred on Jun 6, 2015 1:14:47 GMT -5
Gold always had positive attributes, it seems like , in old and new testament. Maybe like real estate, it's all about location. Ok to have gold watches on wrist but not around neck or ankles. Teeth. Yes, it's ok there. Think location location location. That is what counts. Not the type of material or metal or even pre opus pearls. Location. Alvin You're right about the location Alvin (geographical as well). I recall driving into convention in the sixties and a rather scary female worker peering in and demanding that the young woman in my company remove her gold watch, only gold coloured of course, worthless as far as precious metals go. The same lady instructed the women not to wear white shoes, though white may have been a symbol of purity. She had quite a few other little peccadillos as well - poor lady died in a car crash not too many years later.
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Post by kittens on Jun 6, 2015 1:39:30 GMT -5
Gold always had positive attributes, it seems like , in old and new testament. Maybe like real estate, it's all about location. Ok to have gold watches on wrist but not around neck or ankles. Teeth. Yes, it's ok there. Think location location location. That is what counts. Not the type of material or metal or even pre opus pearls. Location. Alvin You're right about the location Alvin (geographical as well). I recall driving into convention in the sixties and a rather scary female worker peering in and demanding that the young woman in my company remove her gold watch, only gold coloured of course, worthless as far as precious metals go. The same lady instructed the women not to wear white shoes, though white may have been a symbol of purity. She had quite a few other little peccadillos as well - poor lady died in a car crash not too many years later.
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Post by whyisitso on Jun 6, 2015 2:02:12 GMT -5
You're right about the location Alvin (geographical as well). I recall driving into convention in the sixties and a rather scary female worker peering in and demanding that the young woman in my company remove her gold watch, only gold coloured of course, worthless as far as precious metals go. The same lady instructed the women not to wear white shoes, though white may have been a symbol of purity. She had quite a few other little peccadillos as well - poor lady died in a car crash not too many years later. Is this an Australian thing or does it happen all over the world? I don't know how many times I heard women being told off for wearing white shoes, sandals, gold wrist watches, sling back shoes (no filled in heel, just a strap), toes out of their shoes, coloured shoes, height of heel. No radios, no record players, no cassette players, no CB radios and no microwaves in the kitchen because some of the workers mistook them for TV's, no comic books, not allowed to go to the circus, not allowed to go to the local agricultural show etc etc etc. The list goes on and on. This was in the 70's, 80's and early 90's. Even now some of those things are frowned on by some of the workers. I also remember it being preached from the platform quite a few times about the evils of married women and particularly mothers going out to work. They should stay home and look after their children. I agree with this one to an extent but it really depends on the circumstances the family is in at the time. No two situations are the same. And it certainly isn't a topic that should be preached about. I think it boils down to each worker blowing off steam about their own personal hates. Like I said it would be interesting to know if it happens the world over.
80's & early '90's no denim (Jean) skirts... I remember girls wearing denim skirts who were waiting on tables (breakfast time) at convention being told to go and change their skirts. When I was in Canada (2002 - -2006) it was still frowned on if ladies wore anything but closed in shoes to meeting. (No peep toe shoes) How on earth do they keep up with the rules! Oh, and don't wear your hair down to meeting ladies!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2015 2:39:49 GMT -5
Is this an Australian thing or does it happen all over the world? I don't know how many times I heard women being told off for wearing white shoes, sandals, gold wrist watches, sling back shoes (no filled in heel, just a strap), toes out of their shoes, coloured shoes, height of heel. No radios, no record players, no cassette players, no CB radios and no microwaves in the kitchen because some of the workers mistook them for TV's, no comic books, not allowed to go to the circus, not allowed to go to the local agricultural show etc etc etc. The list goes on and on. This was in the 70's, 80's and early 90's. Even now some of those things are frowned on by some of the workers. I also remember it being preached from the platform quite a few times about the evils of married women and particularly mothers going out to work. They should stay home and look after their children. I agree with this one to an extent but it really depends on the circumstances the family is in at the time. No two situations are the same. And it certainly isn't a topic that should be preached about. I think it boils down to each worker blowing off steam about their own personal hates. Like I said it would be interesting to know if it happens the world over.
80's & early '90's no denim (Jean) skirts... I remember girls wearing denim skirts who were waiting on tables (breakfast time) at convention being told to go and change their skirts. When I was in Canada (2002 - -2006) it was still frowned on if ladies wore anything but closed in shoes to meeting. (No peep toe shoes) How on earth do they keep up with the rules! Oh, and don't wear your hair down to meeting ladies! my wife has many times worn denim skirts and open toed shoes in meetings and a lot of young professing girls/young ladies wear their hair down here in meetings
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