|
Post by fixit on May 25, 2015 18:25:23 GMT -5
He also continued to receive funding from the Faith Mission until January 1901, although he was off on his own in 1897. Not exactly going out on faith, as he claimed to be doing, since he had a stipend coming in monthly. Faune, I'm wondering where you got that from? BTW, I think he was still making Faith Mission converts after 1897.
|
|
|
Post by rational on May 25, 2015 18:34:04 GMT -5
There is also the fact that the corrent difertion of a theory and any changes are usually supported, at least in part, by reproducible and verifiable data. What is a "corrent difertion" ? This is the second time today that I wondered if you were getting a kick out of making something up to see if anyone noticed :D I cannot believe there are people reading here who do not speak 'typo'. Typing on a laptop while half asleep brings out the 'creative' side of my brain! Yes, 'current definition' is what my brain sent to my fingers but it appears that the fingers were in the middle of a revolt and started acting on their own. I have applied shock therapy and threatened them with additional punishment unless they preform as requested. Keep an eye out and let me know if you see aberrant behavior.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 25, 2015 19:58:46 GMT -5
You appear quite obsessed in your posts with Calvin/Trinity/Creeds and now BSF comes in for a serve - I can't help that but it is interesting that if you are so happy why you continue to focus on these things. Why raise of all things the Athanasian Creed? I'm not obsessed with these things. I'm happy to steer clear of them, and I think you would be better off without them as well.
|
|
|
Post by Greg on May 25, 2015 20:15:07 GMT -5
Yes, you only have to read a selection of exit letters to get the general gist. CSA started to come to light fairly soon after we left - I would be surprised if it was not a driver of folk leaving but some may reconcile that it has been a problem in many churches. However, in time it will become patently clear to many that the 2x2's have pretty much done nothing re issuing guidelines to their ministers and undertaking ongoing training etc. and many will want to know why. The lack of response is telling - it sends the following messages - "we are above the law" and "it really isn't a problem in the Truth". Groups which regard themselves as the "The Truth" tend to cover-up and deny problems vociferously and deflect criticism by pointing out problems in other churches - a tactic which works for an increasingly short time in an online world. CSA and (real and apparent) worker inaction to it might be used as an excuse for leaving while the real reason remains unknown. I do not recall reading what your church has done in regard to guidelines, training, etc. Perhaps nothing since I have not read or heard of such. What does your church do with CSA perps?
|
|
|
Post by Greg on May 25, 2015 20:20:45 GMT -5
You appear quite obsessed in your posts with Calvin/Trinity/Creeds and now BSF comes in for a serve - I can't help that but it is interesting that if you are so happy why you continue to focus on these things. What is your basis for the obsessed discernment? Could that basis be used on other posters? If I am happy in my church, should I not mention what I find as negatives in other churches?
|
|
|
Post by Greg on May 25, 2015 20:35:30 GMT -5
CSA and (real and apparent) worker inaction to it might be used as an excuse for leaving while the real reason remains unknown. >>>> Just as a side note, from what I remember of the exit letters I read, they all stated why they left....a few left over CSA inaction, but as I recall, it seems many left over doctrine--and said so. It's been awhile since I've read the letters, so i could be wrong. I wonder what particular doctrine was offensive per individual and how long such was tolerated before exit was made.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 25, 2015 21:27:56 GMT -5
I look forward to more posts on my church which you have never been to. So as to not disappoint you Ross, here's something from Wikipedia:
|
|
hberry
Senior Member
Posts: 743
|
Post by hberry on May 25, 2015 22:42:51 GMT -5
Just as a side note, from what I remember of the exit letters I read, they all stated why they left....a few left over CSA inaction, but as I recall, it seems many left over doctrine--and said so. It's been awhile since I've read the letters, so i could be wrong. I wonder what particular doctrine was offensive per individual and how long such was tolerated before exit was made. the exit letters I read were pretty specific as to what they disagreed with. How long they tolerated the differences before leaving, I don't know--although a few letters did indicate how long it took them to leave. Many exit letters are posted for public viewing unless something has changed since last I looked.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on May 26, 2015 1:01:37 GMT -5
Isn't that how every new Christian denomination starts ?
"William Irvine and the early workers felt John Govan didn't have a complete picture of the New Testament Church "
Those other guys just don't have it quite right, so we are going to do it right!
Yep! That how the it went the last 2000 years, about the Remnant of believers have been chosen by God to preserve Jesus Truth and Way on the earth.
So, Nathan, -you mean everyone along the way kept not getting it quite complete and therefore it needed someone new to come along every so often to complete it?
Who do you think will be the new guys?
|
|
|
Post by faune on May 26, 2015 9:02:45 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Roselyn T on May 26, 2015 19:30:27 GMT -5
Funny thing is Review there seem to be a lot of us that have had the same experience as Ross has growing up in the F&W, and have the same opinion as Ross.
"Basically, people leave and are continuing to leave the 2x2's because of the 2x2 creed which primarily focuses on:
- exclusivity - an only true ministry that comes from the shores of Galilee - a totally works-based gospel - a whole bunch of man-made rules and regulations that cloud the simplicity that we have in Jesus - Jesus alone cannot save me (despite the hymn in the book)"
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 26, 2015 20:10:20 GMT -5
I wonder if Ross tells his 'information sources' that their church preaches a totally works-based gospel? That they have a whole bunch of man made rules and regulations, cult like behaviour? You forgot to mention "heresy". (But Ross is not obsessed with whatever makes F&W guilty of heresy).
|
|
|
Post by faune on May 26, 2015 22:54:45 GMT -5
I've tried to figure it out but not easy.... I know a lot of exes who are Christians - I've never talked to anyone or heard anyone talk about the Athanasian Creed???!!! It wouldn't even register in the mind of exes. I've never heard the Creed quoted in a church and I had to look it up to see what it said. Basically, people leave and are continuing to leave the 2x2's because of the 2x2 creed which primarily focuses on: - exclusivity - an only true ministry that comes from the shores of Galilee - a totally works-based gospel - a whole bunch of man-made rules and regulations that cloud the simplicity that we have in Jesus - Jesus alone cannot save me (despite the hymn in the book) I've never heard of anyone primarily leaving the 2x2's because of the Trinity - 2x2 teaching on the nature and character of God is all over the place so it would be hard to ping the 2x2's on that one alone! Ross left the church for over 20 years ago. With no offence intended but from reading a number of his posts I feel it was of benefit to himself and also benefit to the church. He has his opinion and slant on things and he is fully entitled to that. His posts often are purely his opinion and from his slant of an experience that was unsatisfactory to him. They are not the reality of what the fellowship is. He maintains a deep interest in the church which I find ironical! He spending hours a week posting on this forum.He maintains a network; perhaps his family who have felt no need to exit as he has; perhaps others who keep him up to date with the latest news, gossip and innuendo. I wonder if Ross tells his 'information sources' that their church preaches a totally works-based gospel? That they have a whole bunch of man made rules and regulations, cult like behaviour? Review ~ So did I leave the 2x2's over 20 years ago, but it left such a lasting impression that I continue to share my insights on TMB along with others who shared similar experiences during their professing days. To see why folks left the fold, you might want to check out some of those Exit Letters and books I referenced earlier on this page and shown below. www.thelibertyconnection.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=113&Itemid=26 Why We Left?thelibertyconnection.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=339:the-church-with-no-name-by-lynn-cooper&catid=16:books&Itemid=10 "The Church Without A Name"
|
|
|
Post by faune on May 26, 2015 23:53:31 GMT -5
He also continued to receive funding from the Faith Mission until January 1901, although he was off on his own in 1897. Not exactly going out on faith, as he claimed to be doing, since he had a stipend coming in monthly. Faune, I'm wondering where you got that from? BTW, I think he was still making Faith Mission converts after 1897. Fixit ~ I got the information primarily from Chapter 3 of Cherie's book on William Irvine on TTT site regarding the Faith Mission (excerpt below) and also from Wiki article on Wm. Irvine, Scottish Evangelist, which got their info. from John Govan's Bright Words article, 1901. From Wiki:
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 27, 2015 0:02:18 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by faune on May 27, 2015 0:40:16 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on May 27, 2015 3:13:58 GMT -5
What Hat ~ I see your point. However, I was just pointing out the "authoritarian" style of senior workers for most of the 2x2 existence, which was being discussed on the Facebook private board, The Secret World of Truth. At that time we were discussing the Northwestern Region of the States, but I feel this micro-managing of friends is pretty much all over to some degree. If things have changed in the last decade, kudos to those who are bringing these changes about ~ most likely the young friends? I honestly don't see the older friends getting on the bandwagon of change myself. I also wish to state that most outside churches I have attended since the 2x2's don't have all these restrictions placed upon them as requirements for membership or feel they have to conform to a bunch of "unwritten rules" to be accepted by the members. They are more taken up with worship of Jesus and hands-on community efforts to better other folks lives than comparison among friends within the 2x2's to see who is more spiritual by being "up to snuff" with the workers' directives. Please tell me how any of these cosmetic requirements of membership add to a person's spiritual wellbeing or benefit? I see no difference here than what Jesus referenced in Matthew 23. Also, I do realize that legalistic churches ALL have their "unwritten rules" that are part of their tradition as much as what they take as proof-text from the Bible to justify their claims. However, I really don't think Jesus would support such legalistic behaviors or commend them for their outward sacrifices. This was something he took up with the Pharisees in Matthew 23, if I remember right? Jesus was a teacher who lifted people's burden and did not add to them as strict religions have a way of doing. www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+23 Agreed that Jesus was against legalism. The issue with using the word 'cult' is that it's applied to some groups that are legalistic, but not to all legalistic churches. No one refers to the Southern Baptists as a cult, but they are as legalistic as they come. sbcvoices.com/dealing-with-legalism/Looking at your thread title, the "common behaviours" you identify are not unique to "religious cults"; they're found in many other places. So at this point I have no idea with all the various articles you have posted, how do you, faune, define the words "religious cult"? That it's a group of people mostly with two arms and two legs some of whom are legalistic doesn't make for a definition. That definition fits a lot of people not generally known as cults.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on May 27, 2015 4:43:51 GMT -5
Ross left the church 16 years ago not 20 years ago, I'm not sure of that importance of the 4 year difference. His wife compared teaching of the anglican church where Ross goes and meetings and decided to join the anglican church. Whipee!!! What about the people I know who in recent years have left anglican, catholic, pente etc and become part of our church because they didn't have the right teaching in the churches they left. Anyway Ross maintains a deep interest in the church which I find ironical! He spending hours a week posting on this forum.He maintains a network; perhaps his family who have felt no need to exit as he has; perhaps others who keep him up to date with the latest news, gossip and innuendo. I wonder if Ross tells his 'information sources' that their church preaches a totally works-based gospel? That they have a whole bunch of man made rules and regulations, cult like behaviour? Ross left the church 16 years ago not 20 years ago, I'm not sure of that importance of the 4 year difference. His wife compared teaching of the anglican church where Ross goes and meetings and decided to join the anglican church. Whipee!!! What about the people I know who in recent years have left anglican, catholic, pente etc and become part of our church because they didn't have the right teaching in the churches they left. Anyway Ross maintains a deep interest in the church which I find ironical! He spending hours a week posting on this forum.He maintains a network; perhaps his family who have felt no need to exit as he has; perhaps others who keep him up to date with the latest news, gossip and innuendo. I wonder if Ross tells his 'information sources' that their church preaches a totally works-based gospel? That they have a whole bunch of man made rules and regulations, cult like behaviour? It is supposed to be Woopee!!! -NOT Wipee!!!Can't you get any thing correct? Good Grief!
|
|
|
Post by faune on May 27, 2015 22:31:04 GMT -5
What Hat ~ I see your point. However, I was just pointing out the "authoritarian" style of senior workers for most of the 2x2 existence, which was being discussed on the Facebook private board, The Secret World of Truth. At that time we were discussing the Northwestern Region of the States, but I feel this micro-managing of friends is pretty much all over to some degree. If things have changed in the last decade, kudos to those who are bringing these changes about ~ most likely the young friends? I honestly don't see the older friends getting on the bandwagon of change myself. I also wish to state that most outside churches I have attended since the 2x2's don't have all these restrictions placed upon them as requirements for membership or feel they have to conform to a bunch of "unwritten rules" to be accepted by the members. They are more taken up with worship of Jesus and hands-on community efforts to better other folks lives than comparison among friends within the 2x2's to see who is more spiritual by being "up to snuff" with the workers' directives. Please tell me how any of these cosmetic requirements of membership add to a person's spiritual wellbeing or benefit? I see no difference here than what Jesus referenced in Matthew 23. Also, I do realize that legalistic churches ALL have their "unwritten rules" that are part of their tradition as much as what they take as proof-text from the Bible to justify their claims. However, I really don't think Jesus would support such legalistic behaviors or commend them for their outward sacrifices. This was something he took up with the Pharisees in Matthew 23, if I remember right? Jesus was a teacher who lifted people's burden and did not add to them as strict religions have a way of doing. www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+23 Agreed that Jesus was against legalism. The issue with using the word 'cult' is that it's applied to some groups that are legalistic, but not to all legalistic churches. No one refers to the Southern Baptists as a cult, but they are as legalistic as they come. sbcvoices.com/dealing-with-legalism/Looking at your thread title, the "common behaviours" you identify are not unique to "religious cults"; they're found in many other places. So at this point I have no idea with all the various articles you have posted, how do you, faune, define the words "religious cult"? That it's a group of people mostly with two arms and two legs some of whom are legalistic doesn't make for a definition. That definition fits a lot of people not generally known as cults. What Hat ~ Legalism is just one facet of groups with cultish characteristics. However, when I think of aberrational groups myself, I picture an imbalance of power and lordship over the flock along with micro-managing people's lives by leadership along with other boundary violations and abuses. It's not so much about theology but more about power-plays and manipulation of folks. However, perverted theology often goes along with the package. By the way, Chuck Swindoll is one of my favorite Bible teachers and I agree with his statement in your posting. Although I attend a Baptist Church, my home church is a lot more liberal and centered around worship and Christ-centered relationship and mission work at home and abroad. I love the freedom and warm fellowship I enjoy at my church since joining in 2003. It's a mega-church, but very small group focus regarding home cell groups for Bible study relating to the topical Bible study. I love the expository teaching style, too!
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 28, 2015 0:08:03 GMT -5
What Hat ~ Legalism is just one facet of groups with cultish characteristics. However, when I think of aberrational groups myself, I picture an imbalance of power and lordship over the flock along with micro-managing people's lives by leadership along with other boundary violations and abuses. It's not so much about theology but more about power-plays and manipulation of folks. However, perverted theology often goes along with the package It's nothing to do with theology Faune. Folks obsessed with the Trinity write books and pontificate on TMB about the 2x2 church being a cult because it doesn't promote Trinitarian theology. Yet Trinitarian churches can be extremely abusive.
|
|
|
Post by Greg on May 28, 2015 2:59:00 GMT -5
~ Legalism is just one facet of groups with cultish characteristics. However, when I think of aberrational groups myself, I picture an imbalance of power and lordship over the flock along with micro-managing people's lives by leadership along with other boundary violations and abuses. It's not so much about theology but more about power-plays and manipulation of folks. However, perverted theology often goes along with the package. Somewhat as a parent or teacher or employer.
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on May 28, 2015 6:05:16 GMT -5
Agreed that Jesus was against legalism. The issue with using the word 'cult' is that it's applied to some groups that are legalistic, but not to all legalistic churches. No one refers to the Southern Baptists as a cult, but they are as legalistic as they come. sbcvoices.com/dealing-with-legalism/Looking at your thread title, the "common behaviours" you identify are not unique to "religious cults"; they're found in many other places. So at this point I have no idea with all the various articles you have posted, how do you, faune, define the words "religious cult"? That it's a group of people mostly with two arms and two legs some of whom are legalistic doesn't make for a definition. That definition fits a lot of people not generally known as cults. What Hat ~ Legalism is just one facet of groups with cultish characteristics. However, when I think of aberrational groups myself, I picture an imbalance of power and lordship over the flock along with micro-managing people's lives by leadership along with other boundary violations and abuses. It's not so much about theology but more about power-plays and manipulation of folks. However, perverted theology often goes along with the package. [/quote] I agree that 'boundaries' are a useful thing to analyze, not only for friends, but also for workers or other care providers who may be 'used' at times in their service. Since stepping over boundaries is a widespread, general issue how do you see that occurring in a cult compared to a church? What 'boundary' issue or issues did you experience with the friends? Just trying to understand this better.
|
|
|
Post by faune on May 28, 2015 12:06:04 GMT -5
What Hat ~ As far as boundaries go, the workers in my past, especially during my younger years, were always meddling and giving their advice as to dress, hair, behavior. You name it, they dictated your life for you! That's the type of boundaries I'm talking about here. Maybe this has let up over the years in certain places, but I doubt it has gone away completely? Friends are still restricted in these areas for appearance sake of the Perfect Way. Honestly, the 2x2's reminds me of one big masquerade party with folks wearing different masks in order to fit into the mold of the workers. I'm sure that anybody who has professed for years understand where I'm coming from here? This type of stuff doesn't happen in my present church nor did I see it demonstrated in other churches I've visited over the years. People are left to make their own decisions regarding their personal lives, including what they have in their homes and their dress and hair styles. That's the type of MICROMANAGING we are talking about here that speaks of cultish behaviors along with denial of conditions, silencing dissent, and excommunicating those who don't follow the leader! A distortion of the gospel message of Christ is usually also part of the package in these groups who usually claim to be the "one and only way of salvation" and deem everybody outside their group as being "deceived" and on their way to Hell.
|
|
|
Post by snow on May 28, 2015 12:28:26 GMT -5
If you really think about how things work, everyone is thought to be going to hell. If you are a Muslim you believe everyone who isn't a Muslim is going to hell. If you are a Christian you believe whoever is not a Christian is going to hell. Even within the boundaries of Christianity and Islam there are fringe groups that are also going to hell because they don't believe what some of the others in their religion believe. It's anyone's guess who is actually right about all this, if anyone.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 28, 2015 13:31:36 GMT -5
What Hat ~ As far as boundaries go, the workers in my past, especially during my younger years, were always meddling and giving their advice as to dress, hair, behavior. You name it, they dictated your life for you! That's the type of boundaries I'm talking about here. Maybe this has let up over the years in certain places, but I doubt it has gone away completely? Friends are still restricted in these areas for appearance sake of the Perfect Way. Honestly, the 2x2's reminds me of one big masquerade party with folks wearing different masks in order to fit into the mold of the workers. I'm sure that anybody who has professed for years understand where I'm coming from here? This type of stuff doesn't happen in my present church nor did I see it demonstrated in other churches I've visited over the years. People are left to make their own decisions regarding their personal lives, including what they have in their homes and their dress and hair styles. That's the type of MICROMANAGING we are talking about here that speaks of cultish behaviors along with denial of conditions, silencing dissent, and excommunicating those who don't follow the leader! A distortion of the gospel message of Christ is usually also part of the package in these groups who usually claim to be the "one and only way of salvation" and deem everybody outside their group as being "deceived" and on their way to Hell. I think you would find a lot less micromanagement in the 2x2 church today. Baptists also speak of micromanagement in churches they've been part of:
|
|
|
Post by faune on May 28, 2015 13:46:33 GMT -5
What Hat ~ As far as boundaries go, the workers in my past, especially during my younger years, were always meddling and giving their advice as to dress, hair, behavior. You name it, they dictated your life for you! That's the type of boundaries I'm talking about here. Maybe this has let up over the years in certain places, but I doubt it has gone away completely? Friends are still restricted in these areas for appearance sake of the Perfect Way. Honestly, the 2x2's reminds me of one big masquerade party with folks wearing different masks in order to fit into the mold of the workers. I'm sure that anybody who has professed for years understand where I'm coming from here? This type of stuff doesn't happen in my present church nor did I see it demonstrated in other churches I've visited over the years. People are left to make their own decisions regarding their personal lives, including what they have in their homes and their dress and hair styles. That's the type of MICROMANAGING we are talking about here that speaks of cultish behaviors along with denial of conditions, silencing dissent, and excommunicating those who don't follow the leader! A distortion of the gospel message of Christ is usually also part of the package in these groups who usually claim to be the "one and only way of salvation" and deem everybody outside their group as being "deceived" and on their way to Hell. I think you would find a lot less micromanagement in the 2x2 church today. Baptists also speak of micromanagement in churches they've been part of: Fixit ~ One thing for sure, people recognize the cultish behavior wherever they see or experience it. It's not like something you forget easily. However, I attend a Southern Baptist Church today and I'm very happy with what I have seen and experienced since joining in 2003. Cultish behaviors and distortion of scriptures are not something I have clued in on in my present environment. I love the openness and freedom experienced here along with the worship style. For cultish behaviors, you might want to go back to my second posting on Page 1 for an illustration of what people feel internally within such situations.
|
|
|
Post by faune on May 28, 2015 13:50:53 GMT -5
If you really think about how things work, everyone is thought to be going to hell. If you are a Muslim you believe everyone who isn't a Muslim is going to hell. If you are a Christian you believe whoever is not a Christian is going to hell. Even within the boundaries of Christianity and Islam there are fringe groups that are also going to hell because they don't believe what some of the others in their religion believe. It's anyone's guess who is actually right about all this, if anyone. Snow ~ Although the Hell Myth was something created by the pagans and promoted by the Greeks, it surely caught on in major religions due to the control it provided leadership for manipulation and intimidation. 30ce.com/developmentofhell.htm Development of the Hell Myth
|
|
|
Post by snow on May 28, 2015 14:38:38 GMT -5
If you really think about how things work, everyone is thought to be going to hell. If you are a Muslim you believe everyone who isn't a Muslim is going to hell. If you are a Christian you believe whoever is not a Christian is going to hell. Even within the boundaries of Christianity and Islam there are fringe groups that are also going to hell because they don't believe what some of the others in their religion believe. It's anyone's guess who is actually right about all this, if anyone. Snow ~ Although the Hell Myth was something created by the pagans and promoted by the Greeks, it surely caught on in major religions due to the control it provided leadership for manipulation and intimidation. 30ce.com/developmentofhell.htm Development of the Hell Myth
Yes, it's been used as a strong motivator for a long time.
|
|