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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 16:59:35 GMT -5
In 1964, if dates are correct, George Walker DID state flat out "We believe in Jesus, He was born a little babe, He came down and lived in a human body. We believe Jesus was God, and by Him were all things created..."
How much more explicit do you guys denying this as fact, need it to be? Somewhere in my files I have, or once had Jack Carroll's sermon notes expressing Him as was/is God the Son, not God the Father. In 1965 I spent a couple of weeks with Tom Lyness and he explained God to me as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. It came as an utter shock to me to discover such was no longer believed in 1986 by all 2&2 preacher/workers.
Further, when I related this fact to an Elder/friend and convention place owner in Sweden in 1988, he was so surprised he could hardly believe me. How could workers not believe in God as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost!!?? Now, this "new" Gospel seems firmly entrenched in the minds of many professing here. Shrug, que sera, sera once again.
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Post by Greg on Apr 25, 2015 18:09:04 GMT -5
One down, two hundred to go. I wonder what he meant by "was God".
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Apr 25, 2015 18:24:33 GMT -5
In 1964, if dates are correct, George Walker DID state flat out "We believe in Jesus, He was born a little babe, He came down and lived in a human body. We believe Jesus was God, and by Him were all things created..."
How much more explicit do you guys denying this as fact, need it to be? Somewhere in my files I have, or once had Jack Carroll's sermon notes expressing Him as was/is God the Son, not God the Father. In 1965 I spent a couple of weeks with Tom Lyness and he explained God to me as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. It came as an utter shock to me to discover such was no longer believed in 1986 by all 2&2 preacher/workers.
Further, when I related this fact to an Elder/friend and convention place owner in Sweden in 1988, he was so surprised he could hardly believe me. How could workers not believe in God as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost!!?? Now, this "new" Gospel seems firmly entrenched in the minds of many professing here. Shrug, que sera, sera once again. Very interesting, Dennis! I know that, as Nathan B asserts, Leo Stancliff saw things this way. Leo shared this with me and Larry Taylor when he visited Pohnpei for a week in 1986, and I perhaps heard it at other times in Uncle Leo's "studies," which really seemed to be his preferred format for sharing things, as contrasted with the various special meetings and convention meetings. I was never in a series of gospel meetings with Leo, so I don't really know what he presented there. If I remember correctly, by the time Leo shared this with us in '86, he was presenting it as something that other workers did not believe, and in which they did not understand correctly. I may be incorrect in this; perhaps it was just my own, inner "filter" understanding it in this way. I was no biblical scholar! Leo liked to point out differences in meaning between LORD and Lord in the Old Testament, asserting that Jesus was included there. I have no argument with him, but do not have notes, as Nathan does.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 18:31:56 GMT -5
The sub-text to this is: they change, therefor they are no different than any other religious group.
If you read the four Gospel accounts they show Jesus as preacher, brother, Savior or king. Who is right? Different emphasis, different aspects.
We all believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. We don't create myths and doctrines around it. Nor do we want to be seen to be promoting such doctrines when we say Jesus is Lord.
IMO Jesus is Lord. He is not God. "THE Lord said to OUR Lord, sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool."
Jesus is ONE with the Father in the same way as He said WE ALL can be "one with the Father." Quote/unquote.
And it impresses me when I come up with other trinities; other quadinities, pentinites, hexinities etc. that these are simply ignored on the TMB. Why? They are all equally valid.
copy and paste: The Word is the fourth element of the pantheon of heaven. Here are a few of the terms: 1. Father = Moninity 2. Father and the Son = Biinity 3. God, Lord and Heavenly Father = Trinity 1 4. Father, Son and Holy Ghost = Trinity 2 5. Spirit, Water, and the Blood = Trinity 3 6. Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost = Trinity 4 7. The spirit and soul and body = Trinity 5 8. The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob = Trinity 6 9. Father, Son and Mary = Muslim Trinity 7 10. The one, the intellect and the soul = Greek Trinity 8 11. God, Lord and Heavenly Father = Trinity 9 12. Father, Son, Holy Ghost and The Word = Quadinity 13. Father, Son, Holy Ghost, The Word and the Blood = Pentinity 14. Father, Son, Holy Ghost, The Word, the Blood and the Water = Hexinity 15. Father, Son, Holy Ghost, The Word, the Blood, the Water and God's servants = Heptatinity 16. Father, Son, Holy Ghost, The Word, the Blood, the Water, God’s servants and the disciples = Octoinity 17. The unnamed "sons" of God = Anonymity
and so on, so forth. And did not Jesus speak of 13 Gods when he told the 11 in John 17:20-22 "That the ALL may be made ONE. Like thou Father art in me, I in thee, that they may be ONE in us. I in them, they in me, that they may be perfect in ONE". This is known as the Doctrine of the Tridecainity.
Some people love all this! Meanwhile, the rest of us just get on with our lives.
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Post by Greg on Apr 25, 2015 18:57:05 GMT -5
The sub-text . . . .known as the Doctrine of the Tridecainity. Some people love all this! Meanwhile, the rest of us just get on with our lives. I think your last paragraph should be: "Some of us love all this! Meanwhile, the rest of the people just get on with their lives."
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Post by Greg on Apr 25, 2015 20:16:54 GMT -5
Paul wrote in I Thess. 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ/ I wonder why "God the Holy Spirit" was omitted.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 25, 2015 20:35:26 GMT -5
In 1964, if dates are correct, George Walker DID state flat out "We believe in Jesus, He was born a little babe, He came down and lived in a human body. We believe Jesus was God, and by Him were all things created..."
How much more explicit do you guys denying this as fact, need it to be? Somewhere in my files I have, or once had Jack Carroll's sermon notes expressing Him as was/is God the Son, not God the Father. In 1965 I spent a couple of weeks with Tom Lyness and he explained God to me as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. It came as an utter shock to me to discover such was no longer believed in 1986 by all 2&2 preacher/workers.
Further, when I related this fact to an Elder/friend and convention place owner in Sweden in 1988, he was so surprised he could hardly believe me. How could workers not believe in God as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost!!?? Now, this "new" Gospel seems firmly entrenched in the minds of many professing here. Shrug, que sera, sera once again. None of this surprises me. To my mind, 2X2ism originated as largely an anticlerical movement, and there was a life, a passion and a freedom that many of them would have never experienced before.. But the majority of its early adherents would have come out of orthodoxy. There are only so many of their previusly held ideas that they would have ever challenged. To any of the origin scholars here - I would find it interesting if William Irvine ever addressed this issue specifically?
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Post by What Hat on Apr 25, 2015 20:48:27 GMT -5
In 1964, if dates are correct, George Walker DID state flat out "We believe in Jesus, He was born a little babe, He came down and lived in a human body. We believe Jesus was God, and by Him were all things created..."
How much more explicit do you guys denying this as fact, need it to be? Somewhere in my files I have, or once had Jack Carroll's sermon notes expressing Him as was/is God the Son, not God the Father. In 1965 I spent a couple of weeks with Tom Lyness and he explained God to me as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. It came as an utter shock to me to discover such was no longer believed in 1986 by all 2&2 preacher/workers.
Further, when I related this fact to an Elder/friend and convention place owner in Sweden in 1988, he was so surprised he could hardly believe me. How could workers not believe in God as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost!!?? Now, this "new" Gospel seems firmly entrenched in the minds of many professing here. Shrug, que sera, sera once again. None of this surprises me. To my mind, 2X2ism originated as largely an anticlerical movement, and there was a life, a passion and a freedom that many of them would have never experienced before.. But the majority of its early adherents would have come out of orthodoxy. There are only so many of their previusly held ideas that they would have ever challenged. To any of the origin scholars here - I would find it interesting if William Irvine ever addressed this issue specifically? There's a well travelled quote from John Long's journal on William Irvine's early teaching. IRVINE'S DOCTRINE: "Concerning the principals of the Doctrine of Christ, he [Wm Irvine] was sound. He believed in the fall of man, in the Atonement, in the Trinity, in the Divinity of our Lord, in the immortality of the soul, in the resurrection of the body, the inspiration of the Bible, in Heaven for the saved, and in Hell for the lost. He believed in a personal Devil, the enemy of God and man. He believed and taught Repentance and that every person can be saved and know it, and that the conditions of Salvation were "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9. He taught that every saved soul is indwelt by the Spirit of Christ; and that the life of Jesus, is the pattern for everyone to imitate and follow; and that the life of forsaking all for Christ's sake was the best to live. The fruits of that teaching resulted in farmers, shop keepers, domestic servants, school teachers, police, soldiers, and persons of every occupation forsaking all that they had to follow Jesus; and to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God." (John Long's Journal March, 1898) Source - www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/04-2Bwmibook.phpMeanwhile the wikipedia article states - "The church has rejected the doctrine of the Trinity since its inception." This is a point I tried on numerous occasions to have changed without success. I believe it should say that "The church does not explicitly endorse the doctrine of the Trinity". Of course, it's difficult to say anything accurate about the f&w because most of the people writing about it have an agenda against it. I might add, not always without cause.
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Post by fixit on Apr 25, 2015 20:53:33 GMT -5
Truitt, Walter and John S. got into trouble for teaching Jesus is God. This was refuted on TMB yesterday - someone wrote that these three workers did not teach Jesus is God.
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Post by fixit on Apr 25, 2015 21:08:36 GMT -5
It was Cherie's post I referred to... Please please please do not hijack this thread to discuss the trinity. If you do not honor my request, I will request that your posts be removed. These men were NOT expelled from the work for believing the trinity concept and they do/did not believe Jesus is God. They believed that it was impossible for Jesus to sin.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 25, 2015 21:27:32 GMT -5
In 1964, if dates are correct, George Walker DID state flat out "We believe in Jesus, He was born a little babe, He came down and lived in a human body. We believe Jesus was God, and by Him were all things created..."
How much more explicit do you guys denying this as fact, need it to be? Somewhere in my files I have, or once had Jack Carroll's sermon notes expressing Him as was/is God the Son, not God the Father. In 1965 I spent a couple of weeks with Tom Lyness and he explained God to me as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. It came as an utter shock to me to discover such was no longer believed in 1986 by all 2&2 preacher/workers.
Further, when I related this fact to an Elder/friend and convention place owner in Sweden in 1988, he was so surprised he could hardly believe me. How could workers not believe in God as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost!!?? Now, this "new" Gospel seems firmly entrenched in the minds of many professing here. Shrug, que sera, sera once again. None of this surprises me. To my mind, 2X2ism originated as largely an anticlerical movement, and there was a life, a passion and a freedom that many of them would have never experienced before.. But the majority of its early adherents would have come out of orthodoxy. There are only so many of their previusly held ideas that they would have ever challenged. To any of the origin scholars here - I would find it interesting if William Irvine ever addressed this issue specifically? I believe that you are correct, that 2X2ism originated as largely an anticlerical movement, as did many religious movements about the same time.
There was a prevalent belief that the clergy considered itself above the common man, the laborers, the poorer people, -and they were right!
I see your point that most of the early workers come out of the more conservative orthodox churches.
They probably didn't even think twice about any belief on a trinity or non-trinity doctrine.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 25, 2015 21:49:54 GMT -5
Paul wrote in I Thess. 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ/ I wonder why "God the Holy Spirit" was omitted. The Holy Spirit wasn't added until the Nicene Council in the fourth century.
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Post by Greg on Apr 25, 2015 22:40:10 GMT -5
Hi Dennis, It seemed the Senior workers generation like yourself, who believed and taught Jesus is God, the Triune God...Note: "Jesus is God." Greg, in the sense that only the Father is God, I do not believe Yahu'shuah is God neither... Note: "Only the Father is God."
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Apr 25, 2015 22:49:15 GMT -5
To my mind, 2X2ism originated as largely an anticlerical movement, and there was a life, a passion and a freedom that many of them would have never experienced before.. But the majority of its early adherents would have come out of orthodoxy. There are only so many of their previusly held ideas that they would have ever challenged. When I was struggling with leaving the fellowship, I had a difficult time with knowing how much the fellowship had meant to those of my grandparents and great-grandparents who originally met the workers. But I began to realize that for them, in the early twentieth century, the fellowship was very liberating from oppressive clerical and church systems. My maternal grandfather was raised in the Norwegian Lutheran church, and my father's maternal grandparents were members of the Dutch Reformed Church. The respective reformers associated with those two churches - Luther and Calvin - had searched deeply and found liberation from an oppressive Roman church, but those reformed churches had also grown very heavy-handed, becoming state churches in many countries. And now, in my generation, something that had been liberating for my ancestors had become very stifling for me, and I felt like God was leading me away from that. I had considered staying in the fellowship (and earlier remaining in the work) to be "being true" to God and my ancestors' choices, but the only "faithfulness" can be to God, and to responding to his liberating command, not to what had become to me an oppressive system. I see the fellowship - then and now - as being so much a part of the larger cultural setting. This does not "excuse" anybody, but for me it means there is no analyzing it without analyzing the larger setting within which it exists.
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Post by Greg on Apr 25, 2015 22:58:53 GMT -5
Note: "Jesus is God." Note: "Only the Father is God." 1) NOT according to John the apostle John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
2) NOT according to Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and My God." And Jesus did NOT correct or deny His "Lord and God" titles.
3) NOT according to Jesus Rev. 1:8 " I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." You either missed the point or are ignoring the point.
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Post by hberry on Apr 25, 2015 23:38:55 GMT -5
To my mind, 2X2ism originated as largely an anticlerical movement, and there was a life, a passion and a freedom that many of them would have never experienced before.. But the majority of its early adherents would have come out of orthodoxy. There are only so many of their previusly held ideas that they would have ever challenged. When I was struggling with leaving the fellowship, I had a difficult time with knowing how much the fellowship had meant to my those of my grandparents and great-grandparents who originally met the workers. But I began to realize that for them, in the early twentieth century, the fellowship was very liberating from oppressive clerical and church systems. My maternal grandfather was raised in the Norwegian Lutheran church, and my father's maternal grandparents were members of the Dutch Reformed Church. The respective reformers associated with those two churches - Luther and Calvin - had searched deeply and found liberation from an oppressive Roman church, but those reformed churches had also grown very heavy-handed, becoming state churches in many countries. And now, in my generation, something that had been liberating for my ancestors had become very stifling for me, and I felt like God was leading me away from that. I had considered staying in the fellowship (and earlier remaining in the work) to be "being true" to God and my ancestors' choices, but the only "faithfulness" can be to God, and to responding to his liberating command, not to what had become to me an oppressive system. I see the fellowship - then and now - as being so much a part of the larger cultural setting. This does not "excuse" anybody, but for me it means there is no analyzing it without analyzing the larger setting within which it exists. This really hits the mark for me, Alan. When my hubby finally told the elder we weren't coming back, he asked the question "don't you stand for the same thing your Dad stood for?" We both felt we were following the Spirit's guidance by leaving a fellowship that was, for us, stifling our spiritual growth--and to not have left would have been choosing to remain faithful to a system rather than faithful to God. Our elder countered with 'it was good enough for my grandmother and parents, and it is good enough for me.' You really do upset upset people you care about when you leave; it isn't an easy decision.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 23:57:12 GMT -5
It was Cherie's post I referred to... Please please please do not hijack this thread to discuss the trinity. If you do not honor my request, I will request that your posts be removed. These men were NOT expelled from the work for believing the trinity concept and they do/did not believe Jesus is God. They believed that it was impossible for Jesus to sin. The Trinity seems like its the Debate From Hell. But if Jesus is God then how can God sin?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 0:25:32 GMT -5
Paul wrote in I Thess. 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ/ I wonder why "God the Holy Spirit" was omitted. maybe because it is the Spirit of God?
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Post by fixit on Apr 26, 2015 0:26:02 GMT -5
It was Cherie's post I referred to... The Trinity seems like its the Debate From Hell. But if Jesus is God then how can God sin?The Trinity makes sense to Trinitarians but to no one else.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 0:43:18 GMT -5
Everyone: the question was raised regarding what older ones early in the Testimoney thought believed and taught. I merely answered that question, directly quoting from a GW sermon, from JC's sermon notes and TL's direct instruction to me on the matter as a very new worker.
Now I get questioning what was/is/will be means. Reminds me of that famous Clinton quote, "depends what your definition is is, is..."
Alan, I am in 100% agreement with your comments to this subject, likewise with you Nathan on this subject. Also you HBerry!
Remember everyone, I was excommunicated, disinherited from ongoing family wealth, shunned, libeled and slandered worldwide. Even had it flatly asserted in this forum that I am a genius with no credibility by a very loyal worker defender. Why? Because I was thought to be someone over whom they had no more control, and the kangaroo court of my false accuser and three overseer workers who I now know as evil hypocrites, all agreed I was something I was not, am not never have been, never will be and my crime was knowing too much about all four of them, and they were afraid of exposure.
Each of them got something for themselves out of my excommunication. One went directly to my parents lying about me, causing them to believe worker accounts as completely true. He died a spiritual leper, though highly praised. Another exposed himself as a user of a male prostitute who had once offered for the work when that man and I were companions. He remains in that work. Another exposed himself as a sexual abuser of women beneath him in the work, and now out of the work still tries to hide his sin. The false accuser, found place and honor as a convention owner.
These are widely known facts and reported back to me as such. They combined had access to millions of dollars, absolute power and influence. None of this was of my fault nor doing. On the other hand, had it not happened, likely I would still be placing heavy burdens on others, grievous to be borne, and still be blind to many of these things existing world wide.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 3:37:46 GMT -5
God is supposed to be unchanging, the same yesterday today and for ever, but non-consistency over the years in the fellowship has led to everlasting confusion and uncertainty in the minds of the flock. This raises the question as to how many other things and practices are a bit confused. Take your pick, each to his/her own understanding.
ps. Looks like not even current workers or ex workers can agree on many things, so where does that leave the common flock of which I am. Member.God help us all.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 3:40:29 GMT -5
God is supposed to be unchanging, the same yesterday today and for ever, but non-consistency over the years in the fellowship has led to everlasting confusion and uncertainty in the minds of the flock. This raises the question as to how many other things and practices are a bit confused. Take your pick, each to his/her own understanding. yet surely if one has faith in God He will show one what is correct or not, right?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 3:46:47 GMT -5
God is supposed to be unchanging, the same yesterday today and for ever, but non-consistency over the years in the fellowship has led to everlasting confusion and uncertainty in the minds of the flock. This raises the question as to how many other things and practices are a bit confused. Take your pick, each to his/her own understanding. yet surely if one has faith in God He will show one what is correct or not, right? Presumably so, but sometimes it is very difficult to determine if it is the voice of God speaking to us or the voice of the enemy of our souls, he too is very clever.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 3:56:45 GMT -5
yet surely if one has faith in God He will show one what is correct or not, right? Presumably so, but sometimes it is very difficult to determine if it is the voice of God speaking to us or the voice of the enemy of our souls, he too is very clever. well the voice of God brings life with it, the voice of satan brings death with it
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 4:03:53 GMT -5
Presumably so, but sometimes it is very difficult to determine if it is the voice of God speaking to us or the voice of the enemy of our souls, he too is very clever. well the voice of God brings life with it, the voice of satan brings death with it Yep, you got that right. " death" being interpreted as eternity in hell.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 4:10:39 GMT -5
God is supposed to be unchanging, the same yesterday today and for ever, but non-consistency over the years in the fellowship has led to everlasting confusion and uncertainty in the minds of the flock. This raises the question as to how many other things and practices are a bit confused. Take your pick, each to his/her own understanding. ps. Looks like not even current workers or ex workers can agree on many things, so where does that leave the common flock of which I am. Member.God help us all. Hasn't changed in my lifetime, nor my parents. Of course TMB and TTT would tell you that - but they're not telling the whole truth. Think about it - such sites HAVE to show we are no different than any other church. Demonstrating we have "changed" is therefore right up there with Irvine and CSA in their toolkit.
This from Slate.com re diet People who eat a lot of animal protein often make other lifestyle choices that increase their disease risk, and although researchers try to make statistical adjustments to control for these “confounding variables,” as they’re called, it’s a very imperfect science. Other large observational studies have found that diets high in fat and protein are not associated with disease and may even protect against it. The point is, it’s possible to cherry-pick observational studies to support almost any nutritional argument."
Sometimes in reading the posts here I wonder how some people approach any complex issue in life.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 4:28:07 GMT -5
well the voice of God brings life with it, the voice of satan brings death with it Yep, you got that right. " death" being interpreted as eternity in hell. death now, spiritual death in this life time now
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 4:37:28 GMT -5
God is supposed to be unchanging, the same yesterday today and for ever, but non-consistency over the years in the fellowship has led to everlasting confusion and uncertainty in the minds of the flock. This raises the question as to how many other things and practices are a bit confused. Take your pick, each to his/her own understanding. ps. Looks like not even current workers or ex workers can agree on many things, so where does that leave the common flock of which I am. Member.God help us all. Hasn't changed in my lifetime, nor my parents. Of course TMB and TTT would tell you that - but they're not telling the whole truth. Think about it - such sites HAVE to show we are no different than any other church. Demonstrating we have "changed" is therefore right up there with Irvine and CSA in their toolkit.There is no doubt that TMB and TTT have vested interests, but I have been born and raised in the fellowship and I personally have seen changes; I am surprised that you have not seen any changes that I have seen over the seventy two years that I have been associated with the fellowship in one way or another. There has obviously been changes and adaptations to fit in with the demands of a modern world, to start with. For example, no more long sleeves, no more hats for women, no more buns, no more push bikes for workers transportation, no more or very little kneeling at pray time, the acceptance and whole sale use of modern technology, computers, cell phones, TVs, radios in vehicles, have I missed anything?
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