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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 4:52:33 GMT -5
Hasn't changed in my lifetime, nor my parents. Of course TMB and TTT would tell you that - but they're not telling the whole truth. Think about it - such sites HAVE to show we are no different than any other church. Demonstrating we have "changed" is therefore right up there with Irvine and CSA in their toolkit.There is no doubt that TMB and TTT have vested interests, but I have been born and raised in the fellowship and I personally have seen changes; I am surprised that you have not seen any changes that I have seen over the seventy two years that I have been associated with the fellowship in one way or another. There has obviously been changes and adaptations to fit in with the demands of a modern world, to start with. For example, no more long sleeves, no more hats for women, no more buns, no more push bikes for workers transportation, no more or very little kneeling at pray time, the acceptance and whole sale use of modern technology, computers, cell phones, TVs, radios in vehicles, have I missed anything? what about teaching of Gods will? what about teaching of the Christ? have they changed? i notice in the notes i have of the early 1900s and what is preached today there is no difference bear in mind those who rode bikes didn't ride on donkeys or walk everywhere either
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 5:05:48 GMT -5
There is no doubt that TMB and TTT have vested interests, but I have been born and raised in the fellowship and I personally have seen changes; I am surprised that you have not seen any changes that I have seen over the seventy two years that I have been associated with the fellowship in one way or another. There has obviously been changes and adaptations to fit in with the demands of a modern world, to start with. For example, no more long sleeves, no more hats for women, no more buns, no more push bikes for workers transportation, no more or very little kneeling at pray time, the acceptance and whole sale use of modern technology, computers, cell phones, TVs, radios in vehicles, have I missed anything? what about teaching of Gods will? what about teaching of the Christ? have they changed? i notice in the notes i have of the early 1900s and what is preached today there is no difference bear in mind those who rode bikes didn't ride on donkeys or walk everywhere either You have obviously missed the point, so sad! I will leave it there.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 5:37:11 GMT -5
Quote - "There is no doubt that TMB and TTT have vested interests, but I have been born and raised in the fellowship and I personally have seen changes; I am surprised that you have not seen any changes that I have seen over the seventy two years that I have been associated with the fellowship in one way or another. There has obviously been changes and adaptations to fit in with the demands of a modern world, to start with. For example, no more long sleeves, no more hats for women, no more buns, no more push bikes for workers transportation, no more or very little kneeling at pray time, the acceptance and whole sale use of modern technology, computers, cell phones, TVs, radios in vehicles, have I missed anything?"
Irrelevant. You are clutching at straws - and I always find that comforting. These things have nothing to do with the substance, spirit or doctrine of the church. The Gospel isn't about riding donkeys. People in any culture will pick out for themselves whether they want to dress respectfully, fashionably or for confrontation - in the language of that culture.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 6:18:57 GMT -5
Quote - "There is no doubt that TMB and TTT have vested interests, but I have been born and raised in the fellowship and I personally have seen changes; I am surprised that you have not seen any changes that I have seen over the seventy two years that I have been associated with the fellowship in one way or another. There has obviously been changes and adaptations to fit in with the demands of a modern world, to start with. For example, no more long sleeves, no more hats for women, no more buns, no more push bikes for workers transportation, no more or very little kneeling at pray time, the acceptance and whole sale use of modern technology, computers, cell phones, TVs, radios in vehicles, have I missed anything?" Irrelevant. You are clutching at straws - and I always find that comforting. These things have nothing to do with the substance, spirit or doctrine of the church. The Gospel isn't about riding donkeys. People in any culture will pick out for themselves whether they want to dress respectfully, fashionably or for confrontation - in the language of that culture.It is extremely difficult to help some one who is in perpetual denial, so why bother and waste time. You are right in one thing: a dying man clutches at straws, and you find that comforting, do you? By by the way, riding donkeys is part of the Gospel spiritual message; Jesus rode on one, and the first time I have ever read about a "talking donkey" is in the Bible, so how is that for spiritual knowledge? You seems to be spitting in the air and it is dropping back on yor face, brother.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 6:55:23 GMT -5
So you think Jesus' message is about riding donkeys? Good people ride donkeys, bad people don't ride donkeys sort of thing?
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 26, 2015 7:02:28 GMT -5
partaker: What is my "vested interest?
PS I was a part of the F&E fellowship for 42 years.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 7:11:28 GMT -5
partaker: What is my "vested interest? PS I was a part of the F&E fellowship for 42 years. Your vested interest (in my opinion) is to expose/ highlight as truthfully as is possible the things you have experienced and observed and learnt about the fellowship including the history of the fellowship; I have No problem with that, let me make that very clear. ps. I you did not have an interest, why would you even bother?
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Post by Gene on Apr 26, 2015 8:21:37 GMT -5
This was refuted on TMB yesterday - someone wrote that these three workers did not teach Jesus is God. Gene was with John S. as his younger companion in Texas, he could tell you what he heard John's preached.... I will let him tell us what he heard, Ok.I did not hear John teach that Jesus was God, and I don't recall ever discussing the doctrine of the Trinity with him. I wish now we had! The account Cherie wrote is 100% accurate to the best of my knowledge. As she writes, here is what I heard John teach:
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 8:27:47 GMT -5
So how could Satan tempt someone who had no lust? Maybe Satan didn't know? How could there be hope for us to be like Jesus if he clearly was from another species? How can Jesus be a saint if there was nothing to overcome? Maybe he didn't overcome anything?
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Post by Gene on Apr 26, 2015 8:42:46 GMT -5
So how could Satan tempt someone who had no lust? Maybe Satan didn't know? How could there be hope for us to be like Jesus if he clearly was from another species? How can Jesus be a saint if there was nothing to overcome? Maybe he didn't overcome anything? Great questions! Click here for all the answers, both for and against. According to the section entitled "FACTS OF CHRIST'S HUMAN NATURE by Everett Swanson, Bozeman Montana October 10, 1991" the answers to your questions are: He couldn't He knew There couldn't He couldn't He did For the other side of the argument, read the section "Truitt’s Doctrine in More Detail" followed by "Letter Written by Truitt Oyler (circa 1990?)" where the answers to your questions are a little lengthier, but just as simple.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 8:48:37 GMT -5
So the temptation of Christ was for no purpose other than theater?
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Post by Greg on Apr 26, 2015 10:13:40 GMT -5
This was refuted on TMB yesterday - someone wrote that these three workers did not teach Jesus is God. Gene was with John S. as his younger companion in Texas, he could tell you what he heard John's preached.... I will let him tell us what he heard, Ok.Will you accept what he has stated as true and stop citing these people and all others you might wrongly cite as believers and teachers of "Jesus is God"?
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Post by Greg on Apr 26, 2015 10:14:43 GMT -5
Which point did I miss? How I am ignoring the point when I showed 3 verses clearly Jesus is God NOT just the Father. There is ONLY one God the Father, there is ONLY one Lord God Christ, and Only One God the Holy Spirit= Godhead. Read the quotes again.
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Post by Greg on Apr 26, 2015 11:06:15 GMT -5
I did... Three persons/entities in ONE Godhead. Like the shamrock!
Just like the word FAMILY, Greg! There is ONLY one Father, One Mother! Jesus said in Matthew 19:4-6 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they two shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
You either did not re-read the quotes or you simply cannot understand.
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Post by Greg on Apr 26, 2015 12:02:17 GMT -5
You either did not re-read the quotes or you simply cannot understand. How many times do I have to tell you I had reread it... You, NathanB posted: "Hi Dennis, It seemed the Senior workers generation like yourself, who believed and taught Jesus is God, the Triune God..."
DennisJ posted: "Greg, in the sense that only the Father is God, I do not believe Yahu'shuah is God neither..."
Do you understand the difference?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 12:28:16 GMT -5
I wonder why "God the Holy Spirit" was omitted. The Holy Spirit wasn't added until the Nicene Council in the fourth century. Talk about 'cover-ups'. I went to a well-known Bible school before professing. I was taught the trinity (although I didn't believe the doctrine). However, they never taught the 'development' of the doctrine of the trinity. They didn't 'fess up to the fact that the Holy Spirit wasn't even added until the 4th Century (I believe by a group of monks?) I read the book When Jesus Became God a few years back, and actually got kindof p*s*ed off when I discovered that the Holy Spirit was added 4 centuries after Jesus left this earth. I think it bothered me so much, because even though I didn't believe in the lie of the Trinity, I felt that this well-know Bible School, which represents so-called Fundamentalism, basically covered up the origins of the doctrine of the trinity. One of the main reasons I joined the fellowship is because they deny the trinity. I wouldn't have considered joining if they taught the trinity.
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Post by maryhig on Apr 26, 2015 12:36:14 GMT -5
The Holy Spirit wasn't added until the Nicene Council in the fourth century. Talk about 'cover-ups'. I went to a well-known Bible school before professing. I was taught the trinity (although I didn't believe the doctrine). However, they never taught the 'development' of the doctrine of the trinity. They didn't 'fess up to the fact that the Holy Spirit wasn't even added until the 4th Century (I believe by a group of monks?) I read the book When Jesus Became God a few years back, and actually got kindof p*s*ed off when I discovered that the Holy Spirit was added 4 centuries after Jesus left this earth. I think it bothered me so much, because even though I didn't believe in the lie of the Trinity, I felt that this well-know Bible School, which represents so-called Fundamentalism, basically covered up the origins of the doctrine of the trinity. One of the main reasons I joined the fellowship is because they deny the trinity. I wouldn't have considered joining if they taught the trinity.
Eh! The Holy Spirit was added 4 centuries after Jesus left the earth? I'm lost what do you mean?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 12:46:15 GMT -5
Talk about 'cover-ups'. I went to a well-known Bible school before professing. I was taught the trinity (although I didn't believe the doctrine). However, they never taught the 'development' of the doctrine of the trinity. They didn't 'fess up to the fact that the Holy Spirit wasn't even added until the 4th Century (I believe by a group of monks?) I read the book When Jesus Became God a few years back, and actually got kindof p*s*ed off when I discovered that the Holy Spirit was added 4 centuries after Jesus left this earth. I think it bothered me so much, because even though I didn't believe in the lie of the Trinity, I felt that this well-know Bible School, which represents so-called Fundamentalism, basically covered up the origins of the doctrine of the trinity. One of the main reasons I joined the fellowship is because they deny the trinity. I wouldn't have considered joining if they taught the trinity.
Eh! The Holy Spirit was added 4 centuries after Jesus left the earth? I'm lost what do you mean? Mary, BobWilliston said this. He's speaking of the development of the "Orthodox" Trinitarian formula (doctrine) and how it wasn't 'complete' until the 4th Century A.D., when it was finally decided that the Holy Spirit was a third Person in the 'holy trinity' (Revelation 16:13). I don't have historical proof of this, but it was researched and written about in the book I mentioned above. It's not a theology book per se, but IMO it reads like an historical novel.
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Post by maryhig on Apr 26, 2015 13:46:01 GMT -5
Eh! The Holy Spirit was added 4 centuries after Jesus left the earth? I'm lost what do you mean? Mary, BobWilliston said this. He's speaking of the development of the "Orthodox" Trinitarian formula (doctrine) and how it wasn't 'complete' until the 4th Century A.D., when it was finally decided that the Holy Spirit was a third Person in the 'holy trinity' (Revelation 16:13). I don't have historical proof of this, but it was researched and written about in the book I mentioned above. It's not a theology book per se, but IMO it reads like an historical novel.
Ah right ok thank you, all that stuff is over my head lol. I just read my Bible and pray to God. He let's me know what I'm supposed to know I got hold of "the go preacher movement, an anthology" book today. A person in the meeting thought they had Edward Cooney's life story but they had this. I've also been given a book on Fred woods letters. So I'm going to read them! Apparently we do have a couple of books about Edwards life story lent out to others. So I'm still in the hunt for it! Cherie kindly gave me an online copy but it's hard to read on a phone! Anyway, these should be interesting to read whilst I'm waiting!
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Post by emy on Apr 26, 2015 13:56:23 GMT -5
well the voice of God brings life with it, the voice of satan brings death with it Yep, you got that right. " death" being interpreted as eternity in hell. Spiritual death (to God) can come before hell.
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Post by emy on Apr 26, 2015 14:03:46 GMT -5
There is no doubt that TMB and TTT have vested interests, but I have been born and raised in the fellowship and I personally have seen changes; I am surprised that you have not seen any changes that I have seen over the seventy two years that I have been associated with the fellowship in one way or another. There has obviously been changes and adaptations to fit in with the demands of a modern world, to start with. For example, no more long sleeves, no more hats for women, no more buns, no more push bikes for workers transportation, no more or very little kneeling at pray time, the acceptance and whole sale use of modern technology, computers, cell phones, TVs, radios in vehicles, have I missed anything? Never underestimate that first sentence! Those things you listed were cultural accompaniments, and with some thought we maybe can list some rather unique to "us" for the present. Even those listed are not all obsolete, as you know. But what we should focus on: is the Bible still taught? Is Christ lifted up as a standard? do we feel the Spirit guiding us...etc?
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Post by faune on Apr 26, 2015 14:04:11 GMT -5
Paul wrote in I Thess. 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ/ I wonder why "God the Holy Spirit" was omitted. Greg ~ Perhaps any one of these verses relating to the personhood of the Holy Spirit within the Trinity or Godhead would clarify this for you?
carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/verses-showing-identity-ministry-and-personhood-holy-spirit
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Post by emy on Apr 26, 2015 14:11:26 GMT -5
Mary, BobWilliston said this. He's speaking of the development of the "Orthodox" Trinitarian formula (doctrine) and how it wasn't 'complete' until the 4th Century A.D., when it was finally decided that the Holy Spirit was a third Person in the 'holy trinity' (Revelation 16:13). I don't have historical proof of this, but it was researched and written about in the book I mentioned above. It's not a theology book per se, but IMO it reads like an historical novel.
Ah right ok thank you, all that stuff is over my head lol. I just read my Bible and pray to God. He let's me know what I'm supposed to know .... You won't go wrong doing that!
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Post by faune on Apr 26, 2015 14:13:55 GMT -5
Hasn't changed in my lifetime, nor my parents. Of course TMB and TTT would tell you that - but they're not telling the whole truth. Think about it - such sites HAVE to show we are no different than any other church. Demonstrating we have "changed" is therefore right up there with Irvine and CSA in their toolkit.There is no doubt that TMB and TTT have vested interests, but I have been born and raised in the fellowship and I personally have seen changes; I am surprised that you have not seen any changes that I have seen over the seventy two years that I have been associated with the fellowship in one way or another. There has obviously been changes and adaptations to fit in with the demands of a modern world, to start with. For example, no more long sleeves, no more hats for women, no more buns, no more push bikes for workers transportation, no more or very little kneeling at pray time, the acceptance and whole sale use of modern technology, computers, cell phones, TVs, radios in vehicles, have I missed anything? Partaker ~ There has been "surface changes" in outward appearance and things now allowed within the home, but still NO CHANGE in the basic EXCLUSIVE doctrine taught by the workers, which was incorporated back when the Living Witness Doctrine was adapted by William Irvine in 1904. It was this very doctrine that Edward Cooney and others considered HERESY and they eventually refused to teach it and were excommunicated. When there is a change in this basic exclusive gospel message that puts the workers on a PEDESTRAL within the group, I will than be impressed. However, the changes you noted are mainly the people refusing to be controlled by the workers whims and finally exercising their own voice in the matter. All I can say is that it's about time they take a stand against bullying by the workers along these lines! www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/15wmibook.php
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 14:39:38 GMT -5
There is no doubt that TMB and TTT have vested interests, but I have been born and raised in the fellowship and I personally have seen changes; I am surprised that you have not seen any changes that I have seen over the seventy two years that I have been associated with the fellowship in one way or another. There has obviously been changes and adaptations to fit in with the demands of a modern world, to start with. For example, no more long sleeves, no more hats for women, no more buns, no more push bikes for workers transportation, no more or very little kneeling at pray time, the acceptance and whole sale use of modern technology, computers, cell phones, TVs, radios in vehicles, have I missed anything? Partaker ~ There has been "surface changes" in outward appearance and things now allowed within the home, but still NO CHANGE in the basic EXCLUSIVE doctrine taught by the workers, which was incorporated back when the Living Witness Doctrine was adapted by William Irvine in 1904. It was this very doctrine that Edward Cooney and others considered HERESY and they eventually refused to teach it and were excommunicated. When there is a change in this basic exclusive gospel message that puts the workers on a PEDESTRAL within the group, I will than be impressed. However, the changes you noted are mainly the people refusing to be controlled by the workers whims and finally exercising their own voice in the matter. All I can along those lines is that it's about time they take a stand against bullying by the workers along these lines! www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/15wmibook.phpSo maybe those are the non changes that Bert is so proud about.
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Post by faune on Apr 26, 2015 14:50:31 GMT -5
Partaker ~ There has been "surface changes" in outward appearance and things now allowed within the home, but still NO CHANGE in the basic EXCLUSIVE doctrine taught by the workers, which was incorporated back when the Living Witness Doctrine was adapted by William Irvine in 1904. It was this very doctrine that Edward Cooney and others considered HERESY and they eventually refused to teach it and were excommunicated. When there is a change in this basic exclusive gospel message that puts the workers on a PEDESTRAL within the group, I will than be impressed. However, the changes you noted are mainly the people refusing to be controlled by the workers whims and finally exercising their own voice in the matter. All I can say is that it's about time they take a stand against bullying by the workers along these lines! www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/15wmibook.php So maybe those are the non changes that Bert is so proud about. Partaker ~ I believe you are right, since the exclusive doctrine taught by the workers is still very much the same from what I have heard and is still a major part of the foundation of the 2x2's.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 15:39:30 GMT -5
What I meant is really quite simple, just as I do not believe only the Father is of God Substance, neither do I believe only the one you guys only know as "Jesus" is God. How more simple do you want it? A monkey has a monkey for a son, a donkey, a donkey, a goat has a goat, a human has a human, God the Father has a God Son. They have the same substance except for the Son also being the seed of Mary, a human. How much plainer do you want it?
The Hebrew people of devout religious belief have been unable to accept this simple concept for thousands of years, so I guess you guys have no reason to do so neither. Reference has been made to "joining" such a belief. I do not believe it can ever be joined, rather is given to those born again. But then that is just my belief and opinion, and I am a nobody. I accept that. Also recognize my days of usefullness are coming to a close, good day to all.
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Post by fixit on Apr 26, 2015 16:05:03 GMT -5
What I meant is really quite simple, just as I do not believe only the Father is of God Substance, neither do I believe only the one you guys only know as "Jesus" is God. How more simple do you want it? A monkey has a monkey for a son, a donkey, a donkey, a goat has a goat, a human has a human, God the Father has a God Son. They have the same substance except for the Son also being the seed of Mary, a human. How much plainer do you want it?A son always emanates from a father, and a father is always older than a son.
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