|
Post by rational on Apr 21, 2015 12:16:42 GMT -5
One difficulty for the 2&2 preacher fellowship to overcome is the blind acceptance of their own "Methodology" as being exactly what Yahu'shuah ha Mesciach established, and all the surrounding components as being the "New Testament Church." The fruit of what it produces proved to me that was/is absolutely false. Now, having expressed this, it does not mean I throw the baby out with the bath water. Rather, it means I have no respect for the hypocrisy, arrogance and deceptions contained in such a doctrine as proved by:
1. Denial of their own history. 2. Mistating and misapplying their own power and authority. 3. Apparent disregard for truthfulness and honesty. 4. Obvious regard for power (including wealth,) and influence (politics). 5. Refusal to learn and change. 6.... And on, and on to follow as supplied by others observation.
Please go right ahead, add on. Good workers as well as bad are reading here, as well as those supporting them. While many might deny much, that which is posted on a wall like this is impossible to remove, tear down, or burn. What is true will get through should there be honest (as I believe honest to be anyway) members of that methodology reading here. The mystery here is how people can determine which is the correct methodology. Often they have been staunch believers in one system and then become believers in another system, denying the truthfulness of the initial belief. If the first belief was held to be correct how can it be determined whether the succeeding beliefs are true or false? In these situations verifiable supporting data is difficult to find.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 12:55:32 GMT -5
Rational, sir, as before when you raised it, your point is well made. With no absolute now except Yahu'shuah (God-savior) a being, some of us feel as though we are not as you describe, though it might appear so to you. However, that is not what I wish for this thread to discuss: which "methodology."
For one, I am not interested in any "methodology" rather life, eternal, everlasting life which I have found and which has already begun for me. You are very welcome to start another thread, debating methodology, likely others might be interested in it. You have attempted to get me into this same debate before. I had neither desire nor interest then and do not now. Others may well wish to partake in it, I simply do not. Please honor my request to take it elsewhere?
Thank you.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Apr 21, 2015 14:20:06 GMT -5
One difficulty for the 2&2 preacher fellowship to overcome is the blind acceptance of their own "Methodology" as being exactly what Yahu'shuah ha Mesciach established, and all the surrounding components as being the "New Testament Church." The fruit of what it produces proved to me that was/is absolutely false. Now, having expressed this, it does not mean I throw the baby out with the bath water. Rather, it means I have no respect for the hypocrisy, arrogance and deceptions contained in such a doctrine as proved by:
1. Denial of their own history. 2. Mistating and misapplying their own power and authority. 3. Apparent disregard for truthfulness and honesty. 4. Obvious regard for power (including wealth,) and influence (politics). 5. Refusal to learn and change. 6.... And on, and on to follow as supplied by others observation.
Please go right ahead, add on. Good workers as well as bad are reading here, as well as those supporting them. While many might deny much, that which is posted on a wall like this is impossible to remove, tear down, or burn. What is true will get through should there be honest (as I believe honest to be anyway) members of that methodology reading here. The mystery here is how people can determine which is the correct methodology. Often they have been staunch believers in one system and then become believers in another system, denying the truthfulness of the initial belief. If the first belief was held to be correct how can it be determined whether the succeeding beliefs are true or false? In these situations verifiable supporting data is difficult to find. There is no mystery only to someone who hasnt experienced change. In the sense of better understanding scripture. Study. Prayer. Fasting. Accepting the full gospel instead of a part of it. Learning to hear from god. Responding when he speaks and seeing him move. All these things can be denied by a person who hasnt been exposed to how 'other'churches operate, disciple and train their people. Not discipling is something that is in oposition to christs teaching. It is far easier to control people. Which is witchcraft. There is spiritual liberty in understanding spiritual things. Some take these kinds of comments as critical judgement. Ive been on this site long enough to knownknow matter how much I would personally like to change things for the people I love in meetings. I can only plant seeds. If people are happy dealing with some of the shocking revelations of late that have occured over a long period of time That is their wish. God does not hold a gun to your head to make you move.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Apr 21, 2015 17:37:51 GMT -5
Rational, sir, as before when you raised it, your point is well made. I don't recall raising a point about methodology. I was going with the term you used in the original post.When discussing thoughts in a forum like this we have to go on what the participants post and not on what it feels like to them.My question was not which methodology but rather if one was a believer in system "A" for a time and thought it was the correct belief system, how does that same person determine that their new found belief in system, "B" will not be replaced with system "C"? I would have to understand how life can be a methodology.If others are I am sure they will start a thread.I am unsure what either side of such a debate would be and I do not recall wanting to debate anything regarding methodology.Sure. Just explain exactly what you think such a debate would be so I will not wander into something in error.
|
|
|
Post by withlove on Apr 21, 2015 18:56:16 GMT -5
It just shows how much we can limit God and how fearful we can be. Having to deceive someone in order to save them is really sad. But if you did a cost/benefit analysis wouldn't deceiving someone in exchange for eternal life be worth it? Does the end justify the means? Yes, I think that is the thought process. Although I doubt they allow themselves to feel like the means is that bad.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Apr 21, 2015 19:35:03 GMT -5
But if you did a cost/benefit analysis wouldn't deceiving someone in exchange for eternal life be worth it? Does the end justify the means? Yes, I think that is the thought process. Although I doubt they allow themselves to feel like the means is that bad. Once you cross the line you have to decide at what point the end no longer justifies the means.
|
|
|
Post by withlove on Apr 21, 2015 23:38:42 GMT -5
Yes, I think that is the thought process. Although I doubt they allow themselves to feel like the means is that bad. Once you cross the line you have to decide at what point the end no longer justifies the means. It's extra tricky when you think the desired end won't happen without your involvement.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Apr 22, 2015 0:33:59 GMT -5
It's extra tricky when you think the desired end won't happen without your involvement. There are some interesting hypothetical moral dilemmas. You are standing next to train tracks and see a train approaching a group of five people. There is also a single person standing on a different track. You can move the switch resulting in the death of the single person or do nothing and the five people will die. What do you think?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2015 8:47:38 GMT -5
It's extra tricky when you think the desired end won't happen without your involvement. There are some interesting hypothetical moral dilemmas. You are standing next to train tracks and see a train approaching a group of five people. There is also a single person standing on a different track. You can move the switch resulting in the death of the single person or do nothing and the five people will die. What do you think? Well that depends on what you are or who you are; now, If you are a hard core racist and the five are your own people and the single person is not, then you might save the five, or vice versa, if the five are not your own people you save the single person. If you are just a plain hard hearted person you would probably just mind your own business, and put it down to hard luck for the unfortunate people on the line. Sometimes that desired end does miraculously happen with or without other people's involvement/intervention; very rarely so, but not unlikely or impossible.IMO.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Apr 22, 2015 10:00:55 GMT -5
There are some interesting hypothetical moral dilemmas. You are standing next to train tracks and see a train approaching a group of five people. There is also a single person standing on a different track. You can move the switch resulting in the death of the single person or do nothing and the five people will die. What do you think? Well that depends on what you are or who you are; now, If you are a hard core racist and the five are your own people and the single person is not, then you might save the five, or vice versa, if the five are not your own people you save the single person. If you are just a plain hard hearted person you would probably just mind your own business, and put it down to hard luck for the unfortunate people on the line. Sometimes that desired end does miraculously happen with or without other people's involvement/intervention; very rarely so, but not unlikely or impossible.IMO. What is the moral thing to do?
|
|
|
Post by slowtosee on Apr 22, 2015 10:07:29 GMT -5
Simple math. Five is more than one, so you save the five, and sacrifice the one. Easy. Oh, oh, oh, that one is your own precious child. Nope , throw the switch, save your own child. ohh, oh, but, but but................... I don't know, but I sure feel sorry for the many people who have had to make some of these type of decisions and live with the consequences , forever wondering if they did the right thing.... torture. Alvin
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2015 12:13:29 GMT -5
Giving the same response given many such "what if" questions in the past, "I will follow the dictates of my conscience when such things occur, that is one reason why I serve my God, as I simply trust I will do what I should at that moment.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Apr 22, 2015 22:24:07 GMT -5
Giving the same response given many such "what if" questions in the past, "I will follow the dictates of my conscience when such things occur, that is one reason why I serve my God, as I simply trust I will do what I should at that moment. I read that you will follow the dictates of your conscience and you trust that you will do what you should do at the moment. Not certain how you serving your god figures into these decisions you would make based on your conscience. Nothing regarding what the moral action might be?
|
|
|
Post by rational on Apr 22, 2015 22:26:45 GMT -5
God does not hold a gun to your head to make you move. Threatening eternal damnation is about the biggest gun there is!
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Apr 23, 2015 1:37:25 GMT -5
God does not hold a gun to your head to make you move. Threatening eternal damnation is about the biggest gun there is! I dont think about that. I think more about the promises of god. I dont feel threatened at all.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Apr 23, 2015 1:56:26 GMT -5
Threatening eternal damnation is about the biggest gun there is! I dont think about that. I think more about the promises of god. I dont feel threatened at all. Matthew 13:24-43New International Version (NIV) The Parable of the Weeds
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. 27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’” That seems a fairly good size gun to me!
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Apr 23, 2015 2:07:43 GMT -5
I dont think about that. I think more about the promises of god. I dont feel threatened at all. Matthew 13:24-43New International Version (NIV) The Parable of the Weeds
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. 27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’” That seems a fairly good size gun to me!
Yes I know the scripture. It is a metaphor. Somewhere else it says to watch and to pray. I try to watch. When I need to I pray. Christians know they have an enemy of their soul. When we abide in the lord he does warn us of stuff. This scripture is a warning about what can happen therefore we need to watch. D I stuff up all the time but I am comforted by the holy spirit. If i am decieved about anything then I trust him to help me recognise that. He usually does too.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Apr 23, 2015 9:35:36 GMT -5
Threatening eternal damnation is about the biggest gun there is! I dont think about that. I think more about the promises of god. I dont feel threatened at all. One of the promises of god is eternal damnation if you do not follow the proscribed procedure. Denial is one way to address a situation that does not fit comfortably into your world view. There is the threat of eternal damnation, mentioned throughout the bible, along with the promise of eternal eternal life. As mentioned before - the stick and the carrot.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2015 9:42:55 GMT -5
I dont think about that. I think more about the promises of god. I dont feel threatened at all. One of the promises of god is eternal damnation if you do not follow the proscribed procedure. Denial is one way to address a situation that does not fit comfortably into your world view. There is the threat of eternal damnation, mentioned throughout the bible, along with the promise of eternal eternal life. As mentioned before - the stick and the carrot. If you go after the carrot you won't have to worry about the stick
|
|
|
Post by rational on Apr 23, 2015 10:07:19 GMT -5
If you go after the carrot you won't have to worry about the stick ;) Well, you do need to worry but I will credit your response to Abwehrmechanismen! Defense mechanisms seem to be rampant today! But it is useful to defend against feelings of anxiety. So a little manipulation, denial, or reality distortion is in order to maintain one's self-schema and to control unacceptable impulses. From this side of the couch!
|
|
|
Post by snow on Apr 23, 2015 10:58:46 GMT -5
One of the promises of god is eternal damnation if you do not follow the proscribed procedure. Denial is one way to address a situation that does not fit comfortably into your world view. There is the threat of eternal damnation, mentioned throughout the bible, along with the promise of eternal eternal life. As mentioned before - the stick and the carrot. If you go after the carrot you won't have to worry about the stick The whole premise behind the carrot and the stick is that you will be enticed to chase an illusive goal. The carrot is never within your grasp.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Apr 23, 2015 12:00:17 GMT -5
I dont think about that. I think more about the promises of god. I dont feel threatened at all. One of the promises of god is eternal damnation if you do not follow the proscribed procedure. Denial is one way to address a situation that does not fit comfortably into your world view. There is the threat of eternal damnation, mentioned throughout the bible, along with the promise of eternal eternal life. As mentioned before - the stick and the carrot. I see it differently .
I was raised in a god fearing home. It was the norm to behave and think seriously about him. I wasnt threatened with hell nor damnation. His goodness and love was spoken about and my parents displayed that in the way they loved him each other and people they new. I had a catholic friend my mother looked after her and her sisters in the winter holidays. She would rave on about hell and tithing and try to involve my Pops in a debate. It was quite funny because he grew up with the 'proddy dogs. ' That was probably the only time I thought of hell and damnation. As Ive told you in the past Ive believed since I was 3yr old through an encounter I had. You can explain that away how ever you like. I dont have an internal wrestling with vegtables either. Im very peaceful inside. Im not in denial. In fact if someone spoke to me about Jesus they arent the verses I would lead them too. Being Christlike is not raving about hell. Teaching about the kingdom of god covers darkness and wrong deeds. Its not about putting fear into people its about showing them a better way giving them hope. Of life beyond the grave. Most of the people I meet are already desperate dont have much are poor in destitute situations. I havent mentioned hell. They are in hell. I give them hope.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Apr 23, 2015 13:01:15 GMT -5
One of the promises of god is eternal damnation if you do not follow the proscribed procedure. Denial is one way to address a situation that does not fit comfortably into your world view. There is the threat of eternal damnation, mentioned throughout the bible, along with the promise of eternal eternal life. As mentioned before - the stick and the carrot. I see it differently .
I was raised in a god fearing home. It was the norm to behave and think seriously about him. I wasnt threatened with hell nor damnation. His goodness and love was spoken about and my parents displayed that in the way they loved him each other and people they new. I had a catholic friend my mother looked after her and her sisters in the winter holidays. She would rave on about hell and tithing and try to involve my Pops in a debate. It was quite funny because he grew up with the 'proddy dogs. ' That was probably the only time I thought of hell and damnation. As Ive told you in the past Ive believed since I was 3yr old through an encounter I had. You can explain that away how ever you like. I dont have an internal wrestling with vegtables either. Im very peaceful inside. Im not in denial. In fact if someone spoke to me about Jesus they arent the verses I would lead them too. Being Christlike is not raving about hell. Teaching about the kingdom of god covers darkness and wrong deeds. Its not about putting fear into people its about showing them a better way giving them hope. Of life beyond the grave. Most of the people I meet are already desperate dont have much are poor in destitute situations. I havent mentioned hell. They are in hell. I give them hope. Oh bubbles you are so right, they are in hell already they need Gods word to pull them out, not send them deeper into the pit! My heart breaks when I see people hurting no matter what situation they are in. Even if it's self inflicted! I care about everyone no matter what they believe in! It's no good going on and on about hell, people just close the ears. Let's just hope everyone gets to heaven! And hold that hope to the end of our lives! Doing all we can to try to help them get there! I hope I get there, I hope God gives me the strength to endure to the end and doesn't leave me
|
|
|
Post by Mary on Apr 23, 2015 13:18:23 GMT -5
Why would God leave you? He says He will never leave or forsake you. We might leave him but he does not leave us.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Apr 23, 2015 14:20:48 GMT -5
Maryhig When I felt like that my pastor took me to scriptures that gave me the comfort and assurance of being his child and coming inside the love that the father has for the son. 2 Cor 5:8, Rom 10:9&10 John 3:15,16 Rom 4:5 1 John 5:20 John 10:28 "and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." Eph 2:8-10 There are other scriptures that talk about him holding us in the palm of his hand or being sheltered by his wings. I would try to imagine how large his hand is. Theres one that says he holds the universe between thumb and little finger.. that blows my brain matter. I would quote scriptures over my life as confession until I understood it and it became part of me. Called positive confession.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Apr 23, 2015 20:31:29 GMT -5
I see it differently .
I was raised in a god fearing home. It was the norm to behave and think seriously about him.[/quote[So was I.Ignoring a fact does not mean it didn't exist. I don't know what 'proddy dogs' are.Didn't you read the bible? It is peaceful if one never removes the rose colored glasses.This is like giving someone a rose and 'forgetting' to warn them about the roses. How can you say it is not Christlike when it is a teaching of Jesus. You remember the narrow way story.Or eternal damnation beyond the grave. You give them a false picture of christianity. Eternal life is not the only option. In fact it is the option that Jesus said only a few would find. That means the majority are hell bound. Wouldn't telling them the truth be a better option?
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Apr 23, 2015 20:59:31 GMT -5
Ratz For some reason when I click on quote it comes up with mine not yours...grr Look if I dont write an epistle you pick at words. Its frustrating because you turn my own words against me. Now I cant remember everything you said. A proddy dog was a protestant. In liverpool growing up there were a lot of fights amongst the two factions of kids. RCC v protestants. He would regal us with stories about being chased or chasing these groups of kids. Heaven v hell. Considering both yes. But majoring on the good. No I didnt read the bible much as a child. Couldnt understand it. All that changed after being baptised in the holy spirit in my early 30s. Do you really think I give people false hope? Comeon thats a bit on the nose. I think you are trying to put words in my mouth. Well it wont work smarty pants.. You just love to judge me dont you. Every possible which way. Hey thats ok. It doesnt alter the fact that I am a woman of faith like so many others. I know who I am. Im content in my being and peaceful. The things you say dont shake me. I think its wrong for me to say to an unbeliever..."you are a sinner you are going to hell." It goes against other scriptures. Re: me judging them. Im not required to do that. If I said that to my atheist friend he would tell me to "get stuffed " but in more colorful language. I am required to love people like you. Because you are my neighbor. . Friends with benefits.. Besides. If the holy spirit has not convicted him it wont work.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Apr 23, 2015 23:08:12 GMT -5
Ratz For some reason when I click on quote it comes up with mine not yours...grr Maybe your phone is possessed. I can only go by whet you say. Probably just as well. In your post you seemed to imply that the threat of hell was more of a Catholic idea. You have to remember people like Jonathan Edwards and his sermon - Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God. It had 10 points, one of which was God may cast wicked men into hell at any given moment. These are some standard christian beliefs. More people will be going to hell, according to Jesus, so that might be a better focus. No, I am not trying to put words into your mouth. I am just saying that if you don't present the whole picture you are presenting a distorted view. It is like selling people on the great taste of sugar without telling them about the adverse health possibilities. I am not judging you. Just looking at what you claim wihout the rose colored glasses. Don't you believe that is true? That was another one of Edward's points - All that wicked men may do to save themselves from Hell's pains shall afford them nothing if they continue to reject Christ.People think Edwards is being harsh but he was just retelling what is in the bible. That will happen if you make unverifiable claims. The requirement is a product of your belief - not an actual requirement. For example, water is a requirement for life.
|
|