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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2015 12:39:47 GMT -5
One difficulty for the 2&2 preacher fellowship to overcome is the blind acceptance of their own "Methodology" as being exactly what Yahu'shuah ha Mesciach established, and all the surrounding components as being the "New Testament Church." The fruit of what it produces proved to me that was/is absolutely false. Now, having expressed this, it does not mean I throw the baby out with the bath water. Rather, it means I have no respect for the hypocrisy, arrogance and deceptions contained in such a doctrine as proved by:
1. Denial of their own history. 2. Mistating and misapplying their own power and authority. 3. Apparent disregard for truthfulness and honesty. 4. Obvious regard for power (including wealth,) and influence (politics). 5. Refusal to learn and change. 6.... And on, and on to follow as supplied by others observation.
Please go right ahead, add on. Good workers as well as bad are reading here, as well as those supporting them. While many might deny much, that which is posted on a wall like this is impossible to remove, tear down, or burn. What is true will get through should there be honest (as I believe honest to be anyway) members of that methodology reading here.
No, this thread is not a forum for non-believers advocacy, rather for anyone's adherence to topic, thank you. If any non-believer wishes to launch their own thread, go right ahead, I dare ya to do so over your own true identity! Now why do I doubt there will be anyone taking up the dare?
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Post by withlove on Apr 19, 2015 13:51:07 GMT -5
One of the good ones told me that honesty gets in the way of saving people.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2015 13:56:03 GMT -5
What a pity, Ma'am! It tells me the person had no concept of the form of salvation I know by first hand experience. Thank you for posting.
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Post by withlove on Apr 19, 2015 14:24:51 GMT -5
It just shows how much we can limit God and how fearful we can be. Having to deceive someone in order to save them is really sad.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2015 1:14:59 GMT -5
One of the good ones told me that honesty gets in the way of saving people. and yet last night we were told we had to be honest with God and ourselves
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2015 1:16:52 GMT -5
One of the good ones told me that honesty gets in the way of saving people. well then i would say that he she was not being honest
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Post by Greg on Apr 20, 2015 1:24:55 GMT -5
One of the good ones told me that honesty gets in the way of saving people. Can and would you please elaborate?
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 20, 2015 1:26:20 GMT -5
One of the good ones told me that honesty gets in the way of saving people. and yet last night we were told we had to be honest with God and ourselves Did you question that?
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Post by withlove on Apr 20, 2015 1:27:41 GMT -5
One of the good ones told me that honesty gets in the way of saving people. well then i would say that he she was not being honest It seemed like this worker (who I have respect for) really sincerely believed that. The gist was...if we admit the problems and the history it might run potential new converts off.
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Post by withlove on Apr 20, 2015 1:30:47 GMT -5
One of the good ones told me that honesty gets in the way of saving people. Can and would you please elaborate? I was asking for the workers to lay it all out there...publicly admit to past wrongs and address how to move forward in a more transparent and ethical and healthy way. I was told that people would not profess if they knew some of those things.
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Post by Greg on Apr 20, 2015 1:34:01 GMT -5
Can and would you please elaborate? I was asking for the workers to lay it all out there...publicly admit to past wrongs and address how to move forward in a more transparent and ethical and healthy way. I was told that people would not profess if they knew some of those things. Thanks for the reply. So, did s/he actually say "honesty gets in the way of saving people"?
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Post by withlove on Apr 20, 2015 1:34:51 GMT -5
Oh, and also, that it would disturb the faith of the professing people who didn't know about those things.
I don't want to broad-brush all workers with this one's answers, but it's worth mentioning.
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Post by withlove on Apr 20, 2015 1:39:53 GMT -5
I was asking for the workers to lay it all out there...publicly admit to past wrongs and address how to move forward in a more transparent and ethical and healthy way. I was told that people would not profess if they knew some of those things. Thanks for the reply. So, did s/he actually say "honesty gets in the way of saving people"? No, that's not a direct quote. I was talking about honesty, and the worker mentioned specific people who were not professing yet as an example of who would not profess if things were brought to light. There was a bit respectful back and forth about whether honesty would make people respect the people being honest about it or make them distrust the whole system and leave. I wish I had a transcript.
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Post by Greg on Apr 20, 2015 1:40:30 GMT -5
Oh, and also, that it would disturb the faith of the professing people who didn't know about those things. I don't want to broad-brush all workers with this one's answers, but it's worth mentioning. I think this would be the greater concern for the workers.
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Post by withlove on Apr 20, 2015 1:44:14 GMT -5
Oh, and also, that it would disturb the faith of the professing people who didn't know about those things. I don't want to broad-brush all workers with this one's answers, but it's worth mentioning. I think this would be the greater concern for the workers. Yes, no doubt. I told the worker that many friends already know about problems and addressing them would make them feel better, but the worker thought it was too risky.
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Post by Mary on Apr 20, 2015 2:00:11 GMT -5
One of the good ones told me that honesty gets in the way of saving people. and yet last night we were told we had to be honest with God and ourselves You were told to be honest with God and ourselves. What about being honest with other people?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2015 4:20:11 GMT -5
One difficulty for the 2&2 preacher fellowship to overcome is the blind acceptance of their own "Methodology" as being exactly what Yahu'shuah ha Mesciach established, and all the surrounding components as being the "New Testament Church." The fruit of what it produces proved to me that was/is absolutely false. Now, having expressed this, it does not mean I throw the baby out with the bath water. Rather, it means I have no respect for the hypocrisy, arrogance and deceptions contained in such a doctrine as proved by:
1. Denial of their own history. 2. Mistating and misapplying their own power and authority. 3. Apparent disregard for truthfulness and honesty. 4. Obvious regard for power (including wealth,) and influence (politics). 5. Refusal to learn and change. 6.... And on, and on to follow as supplied by others observation.
Please go right ahead, add on. Good workers as well as bad are reading here, as well as those supporting them. While many might deny much, that which is posted on a wall like this is impossible to remove, tear down, or burn. What is true will get through should there be honest (as I believe honest to be anyway) members of that methodology reading here.
No, this thread is not a forum for non-believers advocacy, rather for anyone's adherence to topic, thank you. If any non-believer wishes to launch their own thread, go right ahead, I dare ya to do so over your own true identity! Now why do I doubt there will be anyone taking up the dare? Dennis, coming from an ex worker and a man with many real life experiences, I think that this is a very powerful and thought provoking message that offers challenges. It deserves serious thought and much self searching by those reading it and I hope and look forward to some helpful and appropriate responses. Thanks for posting it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2015 4:34:30 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply. So, did s/he actually say "honesty gets in the way of saving people"? No, that's not a direct quote. I was talking about honesty, and the worker mentioned specific people who were not professing yet as an example of who would not profess if things were brought to light. There was a bit respectful back and forth about whether honesty would make people respect the people being honest about it or make them distrust the whole system and leave. I wish I had a transcript. I was taught from very young that honesty is the best policy, and growing up in the fellowship I was taught that God loves honest hearts, I have heard this many time from the platform of speakers in meetings.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2015 4:53:17 GMT -5
and yet last night we were told we had to be honest with God and ourselves Did you question that? why would i need to? i know what it means
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2015 4:55:43 GMT -5
and yet last night we were told we had to be honest with God and ourselves You were told to be honest with God and ourselves. What about being honest with other people? that would be a givin if one was being honest with God
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Post by mdm on Apr 20, 2015 10:27:03 GMT -5
well then i would say that he she was not being honest It seemed like this worker (who I have respect for) really sincerely believed that. The gist was...if we admit the problems and the history it might run potential new converts off. When you start talking to workers about controversial subjects, you find out some very strange convictions that are held very sincerely. They don't realize just how strange and even shocking those convictions sound those who don't share them. It is so sad that they think that honesty about history would run potential converts off. We were told a little bit about the history long before we professed and it didn't scare us away. Being told that it continued from the shores of Galilee would have scared us away, as we would have known we were being lied to.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2015 10:39:54 GMT -5
while new adults might perceive deception as you would have, most indoctrinated children likely would not? My parents generation and many of my generation for instance as we all were very indoctrinated into idealism. Personally, I believe that is a very easily manipulated quality!
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Post by mdm on Apr 20, 2015 10:47:26 GMT -5
I think this would be the greater concern for the workers. Yes, no doubt. I told the worker that many friends already know about problems and addressing them would make them feel better, but the worker thought it was too risky. Here is a recent example that illustrates what you are relating here: when asked about the possibility of open acknowledgment of mistakes made by the ministry regarding a very specific case, an overseer said: "because most have heard one thing, if we were to go back and tell them something different, it would cause a lot of confusion." Apparently, their image of being infallible is more important to the ministry than correcting mistakes made, even when people have been hurt as a result of their mistakes. This weekend we attended the funeral of a dear professing friend. My heart ached and still aches because of the separation we created by leaving the meetings. But, personally I don't have a choice when honesty is rejected as too risky, and when leaders are not held accountable even when people are getting hurt as a result of their mistakes.
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Post by withlove on Apr 20, 2015 12:17:16 GMT -5
It seemed like this worker (who I have respect for) really sincerely believed that. The gist was...if we admit the problems and the history it might run potential new converts off. When you start talking to workers about controversial subjects, you find out some very strange convictions that are held very sincerely. They don't realize just how strange and even shocking those convictions sound those who don't share them. It is so sad that they think that honesty about history would run potential converts off. We were told a little bit about the history long before we professed and it didn't scare us away. Being told that it continued from the shores of Galilee would have scared us away, as we would have known we were being lied to. The thing is when someone is so very sincere and dedicated and loving it can add a lot of weight to their words. You believe that their intentions are right and they are so wonderful and maybe more experienced and confident and so you believe what they say. Now I realize I have to re-learn or re-frame so much. That is so interesting about being told the history before you professed. Was it thru friends or workers?
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Post by mdm on Apr 20, 2015 12:29:00 GMT -5
When you start talking to workers about controversial subjects, you find out some very strange convictions that are held very sincerely. They don't realize just how strange and even shocking those convictions sound those who don't share them. It is so sad that they think that honesty about history would run potential converts off. We were told a little bit about the history long before we professed and it didn't scare us away. Being told that it continued from the shores of Galilee would have scared us away, as we would have known we were being lied to. The thing is when someone is so very sincere and dedicated and loving it can add a lot of weight to their words. You believe that their intentions are right and they are so wonderful and maybe more experienced and confident and so you believe what they say. Now I realize I have to re-learn or re-frame so much. That is so interesting about being told the history before you professed. Was it thru friends or workers? Through a worker. This was in Serbia, with very few friends around, and we did not know them at the time. This one worker was our only contact until we moved to the US. He himself knew some of the first workers. Just for fun, you can take a look at this article about his first companions: docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnwyeDJoaXN0b3J5fGd4OjYwNjliYzYyNWI0M2Q2ZjA Roy Price (our worker) fondly refered to those days as "the grand old times."
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Post by withlove on Apr 20, 2015 12:38:42 GMT -5
Yes, no doubt. I told the worker that many friends already know about problems and addressing them would make them feel better, but the worker thought it was too risky. Here is a recent example that illustrates what you are relating here: when asked about the possibility of open acknowledgment of mistakes made by the ministry regarding a very specific case, an overseer said: "because most have heard one thing, if we were to go back and tell them something different, it would cause a lot of confusion." Apparently, their image of being infallible is more important to the ministry than correcting mistakes made, even when people have been hurt as a result of their mistakes. This weekend we attended the funeral of a dear professing friend. My heart ached and still aches because of the separation we created by leaving the meetings. But, personally I don't have a choice when honesty is rejected as too risky, and when leaders are not held accountable even when people are getting hurt as a result of their mistakes. The confusion has already been caused. All that confusion should be addressed. And the people who have only heard the "one thing"--don't they deserve to know? It seems like the choice is to let them to go on in the dark and die peacefully. Then at what point do they figure that the "most" are the few and it is time to address things? Very sorry for your loss. "Personally I don't have a choice"-- same. I could carry on and block out all of the bad things pretty easily. It's how we were trained. It is a huge loss to walk away from everything. But really there is no choice--it's been made for me. There is a conviction to not support dishonesty, etc. I have to be true to.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 20, 2015 16:47:48 GMT -5
why would i need to? i know what it means I only asked you if you questioned it, and it never occurred to me that you "needed" to. Curious people just ask questions. I assumed you did understand it or you wouldn't have said it.
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Post by rational on Apr 21, 2015 12:03:12 GMT -5
It just shows how much we can limit God and how fearful we can be. Having to deceive someone in order to save them is really sad. But if you did a cost/benefit analysis wouldn't deceiving someone in exchange for eternal life be worth it? Does the end justify the means?
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