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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2015 18:19:40 GMT -5
Many parents have taught their children that the meetings they come to know as "truth" have NO HUMAN FOUNDER. And they are surprised when they learn otherwise. Some refuse to believe it and others feel lied to and misled. There was something cool about believing that you were in something that man had nothing to do with. I remember wondering why little old me knew "truth" and hundreds of my classmates were blind. I pitied them and yet didn't feel worthy enough to share what I had with them. I realize that my parents and grandparents simply didn't know the origins of the Truth beyond when the first workers arrived in North America.
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Post by Greg on Mar 15, 2015 18:25:18 GMT -5
Many parents have taught their children that the meetings they come to know as "truth" have NO HUMAN FOUNDER. And they are surprised when they learn otherwise. Some refuse to believe it and others feel lied to and misled. There was something cool about believing that you were in something that man had nothing to do with. I remember wondering why little old me knew "truth" and hundreds of my classmates were blind. I pitied them and yet didn't feel worthy enough to share what I had with them. I realize that my parents and grandparents simply didn't know the origins of the Truth beyond when the first workers arrived in North America. Were you not worthy enough or was what you believed not worthy enough? How do you know your grandparents did not know of the beginnings?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2015 18:52:11 GMT -5
Now repeat ten times: "Irvine will not save me. Irvine will not excuse me."
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Post by Greg on Mar 15, 2015 19:02:37 GMT -5
Now repeat ten times: "Irvine will not save me. Irvine will not excuse me."
You seem to lack faith.
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Post by fred on Mar 15, 2015 19:06:42 GMT -5
Now repeat ten times: "Irvine will not save me. Irvine will not excuse me."
Absolutely, I agree wholeheartedly!! Nor will the Pope or the Archbishop of Canterbury. So why then do you choose to fellowship with the group that was formed around Irvine about 115 years ago? And remember, I asked first.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2015 3:32:40 GMT -5
Fred Do you understand and believe that the group which you have been a participating member for many decades was formed around Irvine? Yes, we recite his quotations. We read his journals. We keep his photos on our 'fridges. We teach his history to our children. But we don't want to end up like him... dying of cancer (cigarettes?) while he waited on the coming Christ in the Holy Land; fulminating about the lack of recognition his own importance and the loss of fellowship from people he respected. Sounds familiar doesn't it? And no wonder, Irvine isn't our father - he's yours
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2015 4:19:24 GMT -5
I honestly think that we should all seriously and honestly ask ourselves this question, what part did Irvine play in the resuscitation/formation of the fellowship as we know it today, sort that out in our minds and move on with our lives of serving God in spirit and in truth and not allow these things to fester and divide us nor make us enemies when we should all be united in Christ our focus. Irvine should not now be our focus, he was a human messenger subjected to all human weaknesses like the rest of us. Forget Irvine and embrace Jesus, I say, for divided we fall, but United in Christ we stand. We are all human and we all make mistakes, we should acknowledge and admit them, seek to correct them and move on. I have long ago agreed and admitted that the fellowship we know today does no stretch all the way back unbroken to the shores ao Galilee,
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Post by maryhig on Mar 16, 2015 5:27:39 GMT -5
I honestly think that we should all seriously and honestly ask ourselves this question, what part did Irvine play in the resuscitation/formation of the fellowship as we know it today, sort that out in our minds and move on with our lives of serving God in spirit and in truth and not allow these things to fester and divide us nor make us enemies when we should all be united in Christ our focus. Irvine should not now be our focus, he was a human messenger subjected to all human weaknesses like the rest of us. Forget Irvine and embrace Jesus, I say, for divided we fall, but United in Christ we stand. We are all human and we all make mistakes, we should acknowledge and admit them, seek to correct them and move on. I have long ago agreed and admitted that the fellowship we know today does no stretch all the way back unbroken to the shores ao Galilee, Partaker I feel like this too! I know I don't really understand the 2x2s completely, but we do come from the same beginnings and have similar beliefs. And to me is unimportant who started it, whether he was William Irvine or Edward Cooney the importance to me is God, and someone gave up their lives and brought God to us which started with Jesus. Then carried on by the people that followed him. For me as you may know it was my uncle, and he heard a man called Malcolm who heard from Edward Cooney for some of you it could have been your mother and father or whoever else? The thing is at least at the beginning these men tried to follow Jesus, Even if they went wrong, they're human! We don't need to keep saying William did this and Edward did that because they taught us to follow Jesus, and Jesus didn't do any of those things! My uncle always went back to Jesus and said we have to follow him. He didn't talk about Edward much he was always talking about God! At the end of the day, a man can only tell you the things of God he can't make you believe or live it. People say they've been lied to and that it didn't start 2000 years ago, but really it did! Well for me anyway, because I've been taught to follow Jesus. I do go to the people in my meeting because I respect them, and I will remember my uncle because I saw what he did in his life to bring God to us, but mainly I go back to Jesus and listen to my conscience! And pray to God. Because it's God I believe in and it's Jesus I follow.
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Post by placid-void on Mar 16, 2015 8:05:13 GMT -5
The last three posts on this thread by Ross Bowden, partaker and maryhig are the calmest and most rational posts I have read on the topic since I first encountered this board 7-8 years ago! As a personal gesture of sincere gratitude I would like to thank each of you for this brief interlude of rationality and this brief respite for calm reflection. Thank you!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2015 8:09:59 GMT -5
Now repeat ten times: "Irvine will not save me. Irvine will not excuse me."
Truth be told, this seems extremely infantile to me, what is the point here? Will anyone existing in the fellowship today save us? Some don't excuse us even now! This sort of thing is not at all helpful, it only serves to antagonize people and causes much vexation of spirit, and drive them further away. May the peace of God transcend all understanding.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2015 8:27:42 GMT -5
Fred Do you understand and believe that the group which you have been a participating member for many decades was formed around Irvine? Yes, we recite his quotations. We read his journals. We keep his photos on our 'fridges. We teach his history to our children. But we don't want to end up like him... dying of cancer (cigarettes?) while he waited on the coming Christ in the Holy Land; fulminating about the lack of recognition his own importance and the loss of fellowship from people he respected. Sounds familiar doesn't it? And no wonder, Irvine isn't our father - he's yours Wow! Just amazing. Me think that some damage management is needed here.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2015 10:46:05 GMT -5
The last three posts on this thread by Ross Bowden, partaker and maryhig are the calmest and most rational posts I have read on the topic since I first encountered this board 7-8 years ago! As a personal gesture of sincere gratitude I would like to thank each of you for this brief interlude of rationality and this brief respite for calm reflection. Thank you! Thanks for your comment, Yknot, I try to be fair and objective on this forum, everyone is entitled to air his/her views, we don't always have to agree on everything; personally, I have no axes to grind, I tell it like I see it, I might be wrong but that is the way I see it and I give my honest opinions. If I offend anyone, I can only offer my sincere apologies.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2015 11:55:46 GMT -5
I believe that Irvine and Cooney and the early workers were pioneers of the fellowship with which we are familiar with today. It began as a sort of a "model" of what Jesus and the early Aposltes and disciples had started. The fellowship can therefore be regarded as a model and not an unbroken continuation of the original. My deceased mother was convinced that the fellowship stretched all the way back to the very early churches and the workers stretched and continued all the way back to that time unbroken. Of course she believed that they died as normal, but believed that the chain continued with replacement right up to when she died in the early 90's. I often ask myself, where are the records pertaining to the fellowship for the periods prior to Irvines's intervention. We have records of Old and New Testament times. So where are the records immediately preceding Irvine and his pioneering followers? It seems to me that the Fellowship was created as a "model." As I have mentioned previously, It really does not matter to me, I am glad they revived it, even if it is not perfect. Jesus is the Way, and He is perfect, but it gives us access to Him as do some other churches in the christian world. Why should we spend valuable time bickering about these things?
Right, having gotten that off my chest, I will now go on the keyboard/organ and play and sing hymn # 34: Teach us Lord our days to number, that our hearts we may apply to wisdom..
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Post by CherieKropp on Mar 16, 2015 12:21:14 GMT -5
For the record, a 2x2 history professor, Dr. Jaenen, in his book* discusses Apostolic Succession and The Remnant Church Thesis. He states that he does not find evidence to support a conclusion that "there has always been a 'remnant' in the world" in the form of an unbroken chain of meetings and/or preachers from the early centuries until now. He does NOT imply or assert that the Two by Two church is a “Remnant Church.” Jaenen clearly states that he was NOT able to trace a continuous physical line of succession for ANY group or fellowship from the early centuries. His conclusion is summarized in these two statements in his book:
“In our efforts to trace the continuity of primitive Christian ideals over the centuries, no unbroken successions or continuous activities of a particular identifiable group have been documented.” (p. 535)
“The thesis of a ‘remnant church’ ALSO remains problematical... we have been unable to establish from the documentary sources accessible to us a continuous, unbroken chain of either conventicles [meetings or gatherings] or poor itinerant preachers from the early centuries to the present.” (p. 538)
In using the word "ALSO" in this context, Jaenen is pointing out that neither the theory of Apostolic Succession NOR the theory of a Remnant Church can be established by documentary sources. He found no documented remnant.
*The Apostles’ Doctrine and Fellowship by Dr. Cornelius J. Jaenen
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Post by xna on Mar 16, 2015 13:29:48 GMT -5
Here is my understanding... Here is my understanding... The workers I professed thru said; 1. God heard you and sent us, his true servants to preach the good news to you, to tell you by the foolishness of preaching the one true way to be saved by Jesus, as has been the way all have been saved, since the days of Jesus. 2. They would have know about WI, but chose not to bring that up. Point 1 Is a made up story Point 2 Is use of deception to better sell the story.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2015 13:49:21 GMT -5
For the record, a 2x2 history professor, Dr. Jaenen, in his book* discusses Apostolic Succession and The Remnant Church Thesis. He states that he does not find evidence to support a conclusion that "there has always been a 'remnant' in the world" in the form of an unbroken chain of meetings and/or preachers from the early centuries until now. He does NOT imply or assert that the Two by Two church is a “Remnant Church.” Jaenen clearly states that he was NOT able to trace a continuous physical line of succession for ANY group or fellowship from the early centuries. His conclusion is summarized in these two statements in his book: “In our efforts to trace the continuity of primitive Christian ideals over the centuries, no unbroken successions or continuous activities of a particular identifiable group have been documented.” (p. 535) “The thesis of a ‘remnant church’ ALSO remains problematical... we have been unable to establish from the documentary sources accessible to us a continuous, unbroken chain of either conventicles [meetings or gatherings] or poor itinerant preachers from the early centuries to the present.” (p. 538) In using the word "ALSO" in this context, Jaenen is pointing out that neither the theory of Apostolic Succession NOR the theory of a Remnant Church can be established by documentary sources. He found no documented remnant. *The Apostles’ Doctrine and Fellowship by Dr. Cornelius J. Jaenen Just as I thought, no real evidence of a continuous link, so that would seem to support the argument that the fellowship was a new start by Irvine & Co.
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Post by xna on Mar 16, 2015 15:18:27 GMT -5
Here is my understanding... The workers I professed thru said; 1. God heard you and sent us, his true servants to preach the good news to you, to tell you by the foolishness of preaching the one true way to be saved by Jesus, as has been the way all have been saved, since the days of Jesus. 2. They would have know about WI, but chose not to bring that up. Point 1 Is a made up story Point 2 Is use of deception to better sell the story. No, it is NOT made up story. You can read that understanding, and witnesses in the book Acts of apostles testimonies... Paul, Ethiopia enunch, Cornelius, Lydia the seller of Purple, the Jailer, Apollo, and many believers with similar stories.... So, it wasn't made up stories. Many 2x2s friends, workers, and myself have similar testimonies... my testimony/story is NOT made up but the truth.
When I started coming to Bible studies on Campus and workers gospel meetings I want to hear about JESUS! not William Irvine... Jesus first, then William Irvine, John Long, Edward Cooney, George Walker, Jack Carroll, etc.. later.
A lot hear complain that the worker’s gospel message is more about the workers than Jesus. I did no find that to be the case in my gospel meeting. The 2x2 are unique only because they choose certain different verses to emphasis. This is true with all Christian sects, they pick and choose a few verses and hold to a certain meaning, and this is how a denomination is made. Each sect thinks only they are right, otherwise that sect would not have needed to be started. As for is it all just a myth and made up. If you look for evidence like you would for any other claim you will find none. If you want to believe the story you must do it on faith alone. The internet now makes it easier to fact check. The internet exposes hidden past secrets. I suspect this is part of the reason for the decline in religions. A more honest approach for the 2x2 would be to fess up and say our sect was started by this man _______ around this time. We believe our way is better because of x, y, & Z and that’s why we do what we do, and believe what we believe.
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Post by xna on Mar 16, 2015 16:07:12 GMT -5
A lot hear complain that the worker’s gospel message is more about the workers than Jesus. I did no find that to be the case in my gospel meeting. The 2x2 are unique only because they choose certain different verses to emphasis. This is true with all Christian sects, they pick and choose a few verses and hold to a certain meaning, and this is how a denomination is made. Each sect thinks only they are right, otherwise that sect would not have needed to be started. As for is it all just a myth and made up. If you look for evidence like you would for any other claim you will find none. If you want to believe the story you must do it on faith alone. The internet now makes it easier to fact check. The internet exposes hidden past secrets. I suspect this is part of the reason for the decline in religions. A more honest approach for the 2x2 would be to fess up and say our sect was started by this man _______ around this time. We believe our way is better because of x, y, & Z and that’s why we do what we do, and believe what we believe. I have started an article which present from many sides... Let the readers decide.2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/thread/99/william-irvine-1898-founder-finder?page=1A claim can be true if; all, some, one, or none belive it. Facts aren't affected by what people believe or decide. Facts stand on their own. Stories based on facts stand on their own. Whereas a story NOT based on facts is up to the reader to decide if it's true or not, as it's can't be fact checked. Faith is belief without evidence. Deciding to "believe" doesn't necessary make it so. The search for objective reality desires to believe more things that are true, and believe less things that are not true. Delusions can exist in ones mind that are not true or real, just imaginations outside of objective reality.
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Post by fred on Mar 16, 2015 17:26:12 GMT -5
Fred Do you understand and believe that the group which you have been a participating member for many decades was formed around Irvine? Yes, we recite his quotations. We read his journals. We keep his photos on our 'fridges. We teach his history to our children. But we don't want to end up like him... dying of cancer (cigarettes?) while he waited on the coming Christ in the Holy Land; fulminating about the lack of recognition his own importance and the loss of fellowship from people he respected. Sounds familiar doesn't it? And no wonder, Irvine isn't our father - he's yours Ah, sweet, strawman and diversion all in one, you're at the top of your game Bert. Irvine has no relevance to me today, I merely acknowledge him as a figure in history. It is of no importance to me that he was a founding member of the group which today carries the identifier of f&w. Like many friends I have worker's photos on my fridge. What does irk me somewhat is the series of stories which have tried to blank him out from the pages of history. Those stories are not honest or truthful and deserve to be treated for what they are. Yes you are right in one respect Bert, we should look at his life and learn from. Sadly there are some in leadership positions who have not. review 005 : Yes
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Post by bendle on Mar 16, 2015 19:31:10 GMT -5
Many parents have taught their children that the meetings they come to know as "truth" have NO HUMAN FOUNDER. And they are surprised when they learn otherwise. Some refuse to believe it and others feel lied to and misled. There was something cool about believing that you were in something that man had nothing to do with. I remember wondering why little old me knew "truth" and hundreds of my classmates were blind. I pitied them and yet didn't feel worthy enough to share what I had with them. I realize that my parents and grandparents simply didn't know the origins of the Truth beyond when the first workers arrived in North America. Walker, I completely agree and feel that my experience was the similar to yours. This was what happened to me- In the 1980's at my grandfathers 80th birthday celebrations here in the uk I overheard my grandfather and a bunch of elderly local friends talking about someone called Edward Cooney and also a Jack Jones who most of them seemed to have professed through in the 1930s. (My grandparents had a photo of him, I guess my parents will still have it) I logged it Edward Cooney's name away for some reason but never thought anymore about it for a good many years as I was only 8 or 9 I think. I sat through innumerable meetings and conventions, heard all the 'we are the real deal' speeches, felt sorry for all who weren't part of our 'church' and really just thought that I would be like all the rest of my friends and acquaintances in professing and all the rest of it. Then my brother left it all, having fought my parents every step of the way and immediately started dating, drinking, partying etc and I really felt that some in some fundamental way my little world was being threatened. Then I started getting pressure to profess from my parents, workers, friends and really it was all starting to just wash over me as I was starting to feel uncomfortable with the meetings and missions. I even got a letter off my uncle, written in the last stages of terminal illness, telling me that I should offer for the work. To a 16/17 year old who hadn't even professed that was a little bit too much and I sadly couldn't face seeing my uncle in the last few weeks of his life because of it, I really regret that happening as he was someone who I regarded highly, one of his sons is one of my best friends still however. My brother came back to the 'church' after a couple of years and was welcomed with open arms. I was on my way out however. The constant 'digging' at my 19 year old self was too much. I had tried to profess twice, once in a mission, once at lancs convention and both times I was seated in the wrong place to be allowed to stand. I took it that I was worthless and was being denied a place in the 'church'. I got talked down to quite a bit too and I figured that I really should have 'got' it by now I spent the next few years still living at home, we came to an uneasy acceptance of each others position but eventually I decided to move out and move away in an attempt to get on with my life in my own way and according to my own principles. I was friends with some professing and b&r folks like myself and eventually one of the professing lasses and myself got to talking a bit (she also used me as a smokescreen a bit I think as she had a outsider boyfriend at the time) and I decided I had to revisit the past and sort out my head as there were still many issues including the total inability to talk about my childhood and upbringing with anyone not connected to the 'church' which was causing me allsorts of difficulties in my few relationships and I had had quite bad depression and a distinct lack of self confidence and belief to deal with. I started going to missions in the area where I now live and of course everyone jumped straight to the conclusion that I was 'back' and that it was simply a matter of time. A longtime professing girl of near my own age got my email address and we got in correspondence, things were looking up, I was even wondering about doing what I knew others had done, profess just to get paired up and hitched, say the right things etc as all of a sudden I felt I could connect with people. Living on my own, well away from immediate family had empowered me somewhat but I was lonely and miserable by myself and struggling to see a way forward. Going back to the 'church' seemed a good option, safe. I don't know what caused me to remember about Edward Cooney but I was invited to 2nd Berks for a day and the English pope referred to there having been 'divisions in the church' years before and I felt the usual nothing as I sat there apart from pricking my ears up at that bit of information. I went home and really thought for once about the 'church' and whether I could continue going and getting involved more if my belief wasn't there or whether I cut it off. I decided to research the 'church' though I felt guilty for doing so. This is where google came to my aid. I looked up Edward Cooney which led me straight to William Irvine. The more I discovered, the more angry I got as as recently as a few hours previously I had heard the 'we are the real deal blah blah' stuff from both workers and friends and suddenly I had lightbulbs going off in my head as I realised that the 'church' felt so victorian and cold because it was victorian and cold!! i felt that the rug had been pulled out from under my feet as a few hours earlier i had been with people who believed everything they were told and i had been seriously considering joining them! I felt angry that my parents, relatives, friends and workers had tried to lead me headlong into something that was a lie. I felt very angry that so many things had been refused to us on the basis of an unsound belief and the trouble caused to me personally had been for nothing. I didn't turn up to the missions when they restarted which got me a few phonecalls and i had to explain as gently as i could that i didn't want to attend any more as i didn't want to offend anyone. I wanted and still do want to thrash the matter out with my parents and make them aware of my feelings but i have accepted that the past is the past and i have no great wish to upset my parents world as it is all they've really got. I have tried hard to make peace with myself. I was however, suddenly free! I soon met a lovely woman from a loving family and from them i learned the things that i never learned from my own- Love, affection etc. We married quite quickly (even though she says i'm the most screwed up person she's met) and have had children, sadly we lost our first son but we then had a second. Where do i see god in this? Nowhere. I have in the last few years become pretty much atheist, i accept that others views are different and (i have no intention of arguing about it but there are a few old hymns that i like to listen to, Calon Lan and Gwahoddiad, Abide with me) and see the human and natural side of all that happens to me and around me. I have friends in the 'church' and good memories of times that involved the 'church' but yes, i still feel misled. I sometimes wonder about why the 8 or 9 year old me hanging about the best room door (i can't bring myself to refer to it as 'meeting room') in my grandfathers half of the house heard a name and logged it away and where i would be now if i hadn't? Sorry to bore on and ramble.
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Post by CherieKropp on Mar 16, 2015 20:14:52 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing, bendle.
Wondering at your comment about not ever being able to share what your childhood was like... Wondering if your parents were the strict authoritarian type? Did they restrict you from a participating in a lot that you wanted to?
Did you ever in all your life have a God experience?
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Post by snow on Mar 16, 2015 21:24:56 GMT -5
bendle, thanks for your post about your experience at leaving. You spoke of your parents and how it is trying to help them understand. That is a hard one. I am pretty much an atheist too, more agnostic I guess, but my parents were very strict fundamentalist 2x2's and my leaving meant (to them) that I was going to hell. So I am pretty cognizant of what it's like to have the relentless wearing down that goes on over a lifetime. Both my parents are now gone and if it's any help, they did get more mellow as time went on. I found it easiest to just be respectful of their beliefs and try to get them to understand why I couldn't come back. What hurt me the most was how hard it must have been for them to believe what they did about my going to hell. They truly believed that when they died, they would never see me again. How hard is that for a parent to believe about their child who they loved? That thought helped me understand the rest of it a bit better. All the best.
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Post by xna on Mar 16, 2015 21:26:36 GMT -5
Bendle
Thanks for sharing your story. The moral seems to be - life gets better.
I suspect my 2x2 experience is the main reason I am an atheist today. It may work like medicine where a rare disorder sometimes explains more common problems. . Sorry for the harm you experienced. I think you turned out just fine.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 16, 2015 22:00:38 GMT -5
I sometimes wonder about why the 8 or 9 year old me hanging about the best room door (i can't bring myself to refer to it as 'meeting room') in my grandfathers half of the house heard a name and logged it away and where i would be now if i hadn't?
Sorry to bore on and ramble. Bendle, You aren't boring. Thank you for your story.
That sounds a lot like what happened to to me , I overheard my parents talking when I was quite young and I guess I also "logged" away the information, including the name Edward Cooney as well.
So I really knew from very young that this "TRUTH" OR "WAY" did not go all the way back as we were allowed to believe.
BTW, I loved the sentence you used, "I realized that the 'church' felt so Victorian and cold because it was Victorian and cold!! "
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Post by fred on Mar 17, 2015 0:53:25 GMT -5
Many parents have taught their children that the meetings they come to know as "truth" have NO HUMAN FOUNDER. And they are surprised when they learn otherwise. Some refuse to believe it and others feel lied to and misled. There was something cool about believing that you were in something that man had nothing to do with. I remember wondering why little old me knew "truth" and hundreds of my classmates were blind. I pitied them and yet didn't feel worthy enough to share what I had with them. I realize that my parents and grandparents simply didn't know the origins of the Truth beyond when the first workers arrived in North America. This is my experience: I was never taught that our fellowship has no human founder. When I heard the 'Shores of Galilee' spoken about I understood it that we seek to pattern ourselves on what was lived and taught on the shores of Galilee not that there is some line going back to Galilee. I personally don't see any value in a 'generation by generation' line back to Christ. Just looking at the Catholic Church teaches me that. I also know because of what I have heard with my own ears when I was young from old people of Irish stock and what I later read in John Long's journal and John Patterson's writing that our fellowship has no human founder. I know and knew about William Irvine and I know that he is not the founder of our fellowship. He was a man that was prominent amongst a number of men and woman who were the first workers/the first in the ministry of our fellowship. From what I read it seems he was a worldwide Overseer. It was a good move in 1914 for a number of regional Overseers to be appointed.I know that for just a few years he was a leader but he is not a founder. I also know that before the first decade of the 20th century had closed there were members of the fellowship who knew William had lost the spirit/anointing he once had. It is therefore no surprise that in 1914 he no longer remained part of the fellowship. I don't know but I wonder if he became mentally unbalanced? One reason for stating that is he thought he was going to be one of the witnesses to be slain in the streets of Jerusalem that is mentioned in the Book of Revelation. William Irvine was not the founder of our fellowship, he was a leader. Because of that the fellowship did not 'fall over;/collapse in 1914. Rather the decades that followed were decades of rapid growth in the fellowship with many thousands being added and workers going to new lands where they had never been before. I do not believe and never did understand or believe that our workers went in a line back to the 'Shores of Galilee'. I knew they were a group of men and women who in raw courage and faith stepped away from the denominations of the time. They were not finding spiritual life and Christ in those denominations. They weren't perfect, they made mistakes, our ministry and fellowship has learnt as time has passed but I stand in awe of what those men and women did. Sleeping in haystacks or under a hedge, eating a turnip they pulled from a field for their meal. Faced strong and physical opposition from those of the denominations they stepped away from. I knew about Irvine, I knew about Cooney from teenage years or before. I read the Secret Sect book and wonder what all the fuss was about? When I listened to the Gospel I know God gave me a faith and a new life in Christ that I didn't have previously. Anything about Cooney, Irvine or any other worker was not relevant to the new relationship with God. Thank you for your explanation review005, I appreciate it and understand what you are saying. I too believe that those early men have little relevance to our connection with a spiritual relationship today. However, I do recognise that they were the organisers of the physical fellowship group that we participate in today.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2015 2:42:52 GMT -5
Many parents have taught their children that the meetings they come to know as "truth" have NO HUMAN FOUNDER. And they are surprised when they learn otherwise. Some refuse to believe it and others feel lied to and misled. There was something cool about believing that you were in something that man had nothing to do with. I remember wondering why little old me knew "truth" and hundreds of my classmates were blind. I pitied them and yet didn't feel worthy enough to share what I had with them. I realize that my parents and grandparents simply didn't know the origins of the Truth beyond when the first workers arrived in North America. This is my experience: I was never taught that our fellowship has no human founder. When I heard the 'Shores of Galilee' spoken about I understood it that we seek to pattern ourselves on what was lived and taught on the shores of Galilee not that there is some line going back to Galilee. I personally don't see any value in a 'generation by generation' line back to Christ. Just looking at the Catholic Church teaches me that. I also know because of what I have heard with my own ears when I was young from old people of Irish stock and what I later read in John Long's journal and John Patterson's writing that our fellowship has no human founder. I know and knew about William Irvine and I know that he is not the founder of our fellowship. He was a man that was prominent amongst a number of men and woman who were the first workers/the first in the ministry of our fellowship. From what I read it seems he was a worldwide Overseer. It was a good move in 1914 for a number of regional Overseers to be appointed.I know that for just a few years he was a leader but he is not a founder. I also know that before the first decade of the 20th century had closed there were members of the fellowship who knew William had lost the spirit/anointing he once had. It is therefore no surprise that in 1914 he no longer remained part of the fellowship. I don't know but I wonder if he became mentally unbalanced? One reason for stating that is he thought he was going to be one of the witnesses to be slain in the streets of Jerusalem that is mentioned in the Book of Revelation. William Irvine was not the founder of our fellowship, he was a leader. Because of that the fellowship did not 'fall over;/collapse in 1914. Rather the decades that followed were decades of rapid growth in the fellowship with many thousands being added and workers going to new lands where they had never been before. I do not believe and never did understand or believe that our workers went in a line back to the 'Shores of Galilee'. I knew they were a group of men and women who in raw courage and faith stepped away from the denominations of the time. They were not finding spiritual life and Christ in those denominations. They weren't perfect, they made mistakes, our ministry and fellowship has learnt as time has passed but I stand in awe of what those men and women did. Sleeping in haystacks or under a hedge, eating a turnip they pulled from a field for their meal. Faced strong and physical opposition from those of the denominations they stepped away from. I knew about Irvine, I knew about Cooney from teenage years or before. I read the Secret Sect book and wonder what all the fuss was about? When I listened to the Gospel I know God gave me a faith and a new life in Christ that I didn't have previously. Anything about Cooney, Irvine or any other worker was not relevant to the new relationship with God. this is my understanding also, unless it is founded by God it is none of His [For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.]
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2015 5:02:05 GMT -5
I admit that there has been a lot of things mentioned by workers inadvertantly in the past that were taken to heart by friends and which have resulted in misunderstandings. The friends passed it on to their children, and some children also heard it directly in meetings and conventions etc. and so these things were taken as truths.However as time progressed and certain things were clarified and made known some folks became angry and felt betrayed, and maybe justifiably so. I personally do not believe that the workers and the fellowship deliberately set out to betray the flock, as some workers genuinely and enthusiastically believed it themselves; and it is for that reason that I felt reasonably comfortable with the revelation about Irvine, Cooney and the early workers and the part they played in re-establishing the path JESUS and His apostles and disciples marked out.I am not inflexible, I have the capacity to make allowances for human weaknesses and failures because we are not perfect by any means.
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Post by mdm on Mar 17, 2015 8:51:51 GMT -5
Perhaps Review's experience reflects his geographic area. The worker we first met told us when the fellowship was started and that he knew some of the first workers. However, after we moved to the US and professed, we realized that the subject was a taboo and that the official teaching is that there is a continuation from the 1st century church.
It makes sense that the church leadership would keep reinforcing this teaching, as it keeps people from exercising discernment as to the spirit/teaching/practices of the church and keeps them focused on the 'fact' that this is 'the only true church."
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