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Post by mdm on Mar 17, 2015 10:28:37 GMT -5
I also wonder if Review's experience reflects his age. Are the young people in the same part of the world told openly about the beginnings of the fellowship?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2015 11:03:57 GMT -5
It is my recollection that the news of Irvine's part in "The Restoration" came to me as complete shock in about 1953-4 when Ralph Dirkland raised the previously (for me) unheard issue in a Sunday A.M. morning meeting.
"What is this man talking about?" I wondered, as he went on in the Sunday Morning Meeting after simultaneous Olympia and Miltown conventions. His opening words were "I hate to spoil your convention, but..."
Now if the matter of Irvine had nothing to do with the truth regarding the origin of our "Religion" why should it have come as such a shock to me, or even been such a big issue? Hmmm? Oh, it can be rationalized every way possible now, and is, however I experienced this shaking event for a youngster first hand. No amount of devious explanations, or rationalizations now can alter what was my first hand experience.
Later, about ten years later, I first heard about Cooney, and the "Cooneyites," while preparing at Miltown convention in the earliest time as a "worker." Going directly to my overseer and inquiring, his response was a plain and simple LIE, which I believed and repeated to others for a couple of decades. Yes, I know. Shame on me!
Now my point is this: if it wasn't being taught to believe what we were members of actually was in existence prior to year, say, um, year 0070 why all the deception? Now some very loyal believers appear to want to pooh pooh the whole thing as not being the least bit deceptive. Now I would like to raise this issue, if such were as they wish to present why would such a self disciplined worker as Harold Stuart lament in his last days "why didn't they tell us these things?"
Or Willie Jamieson's comment in his last days about "thinking we were the only ones saved (in those early days) but it is not so easy, now?" Yeah, I know, defenders of the purity of their belief just want to bury those things as senile mumbo jumbo. The longer I live the less respect I hold for those in denial today... This is written in an attempt to clearly present the point of view that not one whit of what is accepted world wide by the group today as pure truth comes from whole cloth.
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Post by slowtosee on Mar 17, 2015 12:28:15 GMT -5
As an outsider who had just professed, I remember receiving a chart of the name of the founder and the date of it's beginning,t of a loooooong list of "false churches", from a worker. The point being, was to reinforce that the "church" I had just become a member of, did NOT have a founder, other than Jesus and that indeed, it was the only one tha went back to "the shores of Gallilee""note. I might still have that "note" someplace, but I thought it was fairly well circulated, amongst the friends here. I felt quite misled and betrayed when I found out about Willie and the 'early days". duh, why didn't I figure out that the "early days" were only 100 years ago. Good reason for my name, slowtosee. alvin
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Post by xna on Mar 17, 2015 12:55:04 GMT -5
The differences are each church/denomination has focused certain Jesus teachings as their core belief. You just explained how a denomination is made. The 2x2 denomination was started by WI. Christianity traces it roots back to Jesus, but I doubt there is an unbroken chain of 2x2 workers back to Jesus. If so where is the evidence? Further Christianity borrowed most of it's ideas from Egypt. The pharaoh was a king, man & god. www.experience-ancient-egypt.com/ancient-egyptian-pharaohs.htmlen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2015 12:58:20 GMT -5
As an outsider who had just professed, I remember receiving a chart of the name of the founder and the date of it's beginning,t of a loooooong list of "false churches", from a worker. The point being, was to reinforce that the "church" I had just become a member of, did NOT have a founder, other than Jesus and that indeed, it was the only one tha went back to "the shores of Gallilee""note. I might still have that "note" someplace, but I thought it was fairly well circulated, amongst the friends here. I felt quite misled and betrayed when I found out about Willie and the 'early days". duh, why didn't I figure out that the "early days" were only 100 years ago. Good reason for my name, slowtosee. alvin This supports what I have written above in spite of Nathan's response to My posting,denial solves nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2015 13:22:05 GMT -5
Just as I thought, no real evidence of a continuous link, so that would seem to support the argument that the fellowship was a new start by Irvine & Co. People will believe what they want to believe.... You know my famous saying.... Present all sides and let the readers decide for themselves! In the Judgment Day, people can't say well, this side or that side wasn't given to me before.Brother Nathan, On judgment day I don't believe people will have an opportunity to say anything, all the evidence will already be there, too late to make any excuses.They will know by the names written in the Lambs Book of Life. So if our name is not in that book, it will be a case of: To Hell with you, to hell you go.
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Post by slowtosee on Mar 17, 2015 13:23:37 GMT -5
....and yes.....Nathan, Jesus is still building his church, like he said he would , in the lives and hearts of untold numbers and throngs of people.......and the gates of hell will not and have not prevailed......including all kinds of lies and deception and mirages and misleadings etc....... that humans have been guilty of promoting, often even with good intentions...... alvin
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 17, 2015 13:24:14 GMT -5
I admit that there has been a lot of things mentioned by workers inadvertantly in the past that were taken to heart by friends and which have resulted in misunderstandings. The friends passed it on to their children, and some children also heard it directly in meetings and conventions etc. and so these things were taken as truths. However as time progressed and certain things were clarified and made known some folks became angry and felt betrayed, and maybe justifiably so. I personally do not believe that the workers and the fellowship deliberately set out to betray the flock, as some workers genuinely and enthusiastically believed it themselves; and it is for that reason that I felt reasonably comfortable with the revelation about Irvine, Cooney and the early workers and the part they played in re-establishing the path JESUS and His apostles and disciples marked out.I am not inflexible, I have the capacity to make allowances for human weaknesses and failures because we are not perfect by any means. It is more like that there was a lot of things NOT mentioned by workers!
They were not "misunderstandings," partaker.
It was not openly known, so it was just allowed to be believed.
I've heard of even some young workers who when they found out came to my husband's parents house very upset.
Actually things didn't become "clarified as time progressed."
It it hadn't been for books like the Secret Sect, & the internet, most people would still be believing that the "TRUTH" or WAY, as we called it, went all the way back to the original apostles.
I knew better from hearing my parents talk between themselves, but they didn't talk about it with other people.
My husband didn't know but because he attended high school, he knew history & realized that it would have been nearly impossible for there to have been a continuation way back the the apostles.
(many of his age DIDN'T continue their education after grade school because it was discouraged by the workers)
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Post by slowtosee on Mar 17, 2015 13:38:36 GMT -5
Nathan, and anyone, How would your personal faith be affected if you miraculously or whatever suddenly realized that William Irvine indeed was,and is the founder of the 2x2 church? Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2015 13:40:31 GMT -5
I admit that there has been a lot of things mentioned by workers inadvertantly in the past that were taken to heart by friends and which have resulted in misunderstandings. The friends passed it on to their children, and some children also heard it directly in meetings and conventions etc. and so these things were taken as truths. However as time progressed and certain things were clarified and made known some folks became angry and felt betrayed, and maybe justifiably so. I personally do not believe that the workers and the fellowship deliberately set out to betray the flock, as some workers genuinely and enthusiastically believed it themselves; and it is for that reason that I felt reasonably comfortable with the revelation about Irvine, Cooney and the early workers and the part they played in re-establishing the path JESUS and His apostles and disciples marked out.I am not inflexible, I have the capacity to make allowances for human weaknesses and failures because we are not perfect by any means. It is more like that there was a lot of things NOT mentioned by workers!
They were not "misunderstandings," partaker.
It was not openly known, so it was just allowed to be believed.
I've heard of even some young workers who when they found out came to my husband's parents house very upset.
Actually things didn't become "clarified as time progressed."
It it hadn't been for books like the Secret Sect, & the internet, most people would still be believing that the "TRUTH" or WAY, as we called it, went all the way back to the original apostles.
I knew better from hearing my parents talk between themselves, but they didn't talk about it with other people.
My husband didn't know but because he attended high school, he knew history & realized that it would have been nearly impossible for there to have been a continuation way back the the apostles.
(many of his age DIDN'T continue their education after grade school because it was discouraged by the workers)
In my opinion these are the kinds of things that need to be acknowledged and confronted and the necessary damage repairs Undertaken/addressed for the sake of the Kingdom. Noticeable wrongs should be must put right so that everyone will be on the same planet, believing the same things and speaking the same language so to speak. May we all be one in Christ.
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Post by slowtosee on Mar 17, 2015 13:52:26 GMT -5
Sorry, I don't understand your answer. I'm confused...........again lol Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2015 13:55:43 GMT -5
I admit that there has been a lot of things mentioned by workers inadvertantly in the past that were taken to heart by friends and which have resulted in misunderstandings. The friends passed it on to their children, and some children also heard it directly in meetings and conventions etc. and so these things were taken as truths. However as time progressed and certain things were clarified and made known some folks became angry and felt betrayed, and maybe justifiably so. I personally do not believe that the workers and the fellowship deliberately set out to betray the flock, as some workers genuinely and enthusiastically believed it themselves; and it is for that reason that I felt reasonably comfortable with the revelation about Irvine, Cooney and the early workers and the part they played in re-establishing the path JESUS and His apostles and disciples marked out.I am not inflexible, I have the capacity to make allowances for human weaknesses and failures because we are not perfect by any means.d It is more like that there was a lot of things NOT mentioned by workers!
They were not "misunderstandings," partaker.
It was not openly known, so it was just allowed to be believed.
I've heard of even some young workers who when they found out came to my husband's parents house very upset.
Actually things didn't become "clarified as time progressed."
It it hadn't been for books like the Secret Sect, & the internet, most people would still be believing that the "TRUTH" or WAY, as we called it, went all the way back to the original apostles.
I knew better from hearing my parents talk between themselves, but they didn't talk about it with other people.
My husband didn't know but because he attended high school, he knew history & realized that it would have been nearly impossible for there to have been a continuation way back the the apostles.
(many of his age DIDN'T continue their education after grade school because it was discouraged by the workers)
Yes, on hind sight, there is no denying that there has/had been many unfortunate short comings which have left some folks at a disadvantage and unsettled, while others have moved on. It really surprises and bothers me that so many former folks in the fellowship had become so disillusioned and disappointed that they have turn away from God altogether and have become atheists or agnostics and some former workers have abandoned ship altogether.All those faithful old folks who attended meetings iduring my childhood would probably turn in their graves if they knew about these developments.
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Post by xna on Mar 17, 2015 13:55:58 GMT -5
Nathan, and anyone, How would your personal faith be affected if you miraculously or whatever suddenly realized that William Irvine indeed was,and is the founder of the 2x2 church? Alvin Saying WI the founder of the 2x2 church is VERY misleading... Wasn't Jesus Christ the ONE that William Irvine and the 2x2 have their faith, teachings based on? How can WI be the founder when he follow/used Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry and fellowship pattern? Jesus started and founded the ministry and church 1800 yrs before William Irvine. How can William Irvine be the founder when he copied it from John Govan and Jesus? Every denomination has a founder(s) who do you say it is?
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Post by slowtosee on Mar 17, 2015 14:00:22 GMT -5
Again, to clarify, the question was not about Willie being the founder of Jesus ministry, but of your present 2x2 church. Alvin
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Post by slowtosee on Mar 17, 2015 14:32:12 GMT -5
I would say , when I professed, my faith was in Jesus, the author and finisher of it. I do remember struggling lots , with that question, after professing, when sitting through countless gospel meetings and testimony mtgs. etc, and hearing about the 2x2 church group I was in fellowship with was "the way". It was very confusing. I remember the HORRIBLE feeling I had at Mandan convention, when it was plainly and openly challenged, from the platform, that anyone who did NOT believe that this (the 2x2 church) was the ONLY way, there's the door, and I didn't have the guts to declare WHO I believed was THE WAY. I sat there with all the rest and didn/t move. SICK Basically , my answer publicly was like Peter, " I don't know the man" is how I felt. Alvin
just for clarification- I didn't sit in hardly any meetings before I professed. I was very shocked when they told me , after professing, that now I was required to give my testimony and speak publicly in a meeting etc. et. I remember laughing out loud when they told me what was required, but nobody else laughed. WOW these guys are serious. Ya, I know, young and foolish would describe me, but it wasn't too many years, I caught on pretty good, and was an elder for many years after , and learned the lingo and expectations quickly, but I guess, like the charges laid- he never REALLY had it, I guess.
"THE MOST DANGEROUS LIE IS THAT WHICH MOST CLOSELY RESEMBLES THE TRUTH!!"
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2015 14:37:23 GMT -5
After The Secret Sect was published in the early 1980's a number of friends were upset that "The Truth" was being maligned. Others were thankful that the truth was being told. Gordon MacNab, elder worker of NSW, referred to the issue (he didn't mention the title of the book) at NSW conventions the following year and said "we have a lot to thank William Irvine for...". As a teenager I naturally asked my parents about where "The Truth" came from. I was told that "The Truth" didn't have workers for a long time but the fellowship had remained without workers and William Irvine somehow stumbled across the house in Ireland where the only fellowship meeting that still occurred was going on and rang the door bell. The story was that they hadn't had workers for a long period of time and William Irvine was the first worker of the current era. Obviously that story was passed to my folks from whoever and obviously it was originally made up given the facts that subsequently emerged. To answer the thread question I wasn't disappointed at all to find that William Irvine started the group. I was more disappointed with the numerous stories that were made up to try and cover up the real truth. Part of the challenge for the early workers was that William Irvine wasn't exactly someone to crow about with some of his ideas and behaviour. What The Secret Sect did though was make us study what workers preached and to try and line it up with the Bible. That's where our real disappointment lay - the gaps were large. Good for him, Gordon MacNab laboured in the Caribbean in the late 1940's when I was a lad still at school, I very much liked him,I believe that he was in the military prior to being in the work. I remember him at a gospel meeting giving a very vivid lesson on Noah and the ark and the gopher wood with which it was constructed. It is good to know that he had an appreciation for Irvine and mentioned his name. Personally I have never ever heard Irvine's name mentioned by any worker in the UK or in the Caribbean in any meeting or privately.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 17, 2015 14:56:43 GMT -5
It is more like that there was a lot of things NOT mentioned by workers!
They were not "misunderstandings," partaker.
It was not openly known, so it was just allowed to be believed.
I've heard of even some young workers who when they found out came to my husband's parents house very upset.
Actually things didn't become "clarified as time progressed."
It it hadn't been for books like the Secret Sect, & the internet, most people would still be believing that the "TRUTH" or WAY, as we called it, went all the way back to the original apostles.
I knew better from hearing my parents talk between themselves, but they didn't talk about it with other people.
My husband didn't know but because he attended high school, he knew history & realized that it would have been nearly impossible for there to have been a continuation way back the the apostles.
(many of his age DIDN'T continue their education after grade school because it was discouraged by the workers)
In my opinion these are the kinds of things that need to be acknowledged and confronted and the necessary damage repairs Undertaken/addressed for the sake of the Kingdom. Noticeable wrongs should be must put right so that everyone will be on the same planet, believing the same things and speaking the same language so to speak. May we all be one in Christ. I can't imagine that any of the workers would still even try to perpetuate the idea that the 2x2 f & w's as we know it, goes back through the years in an unbroken line to the originals apostles.
Anyone here know if any of them do so?
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Post by blacksheep on Mar 17, 2015 16:44:39 GMT -5
I was born in the early 1950s, and during my youth I sat through more Gospel meetings than I usually care to think about. I did stay awake, and I did listen. Many of the meetings were preached by our state's head worker. In these pre-Secret Sect and pre-internet meetings, it was claimed that this Way goes all the way back to the Shores of Galilee, and therefore, all other Christian denominations were WRONG! Apostolic Succession was a VERY IMPORTANT selling point of the 2x2s at that time, before folks had access to information indicating otherwise.
Now, with all the information available which refutes the Apostolic Succession, it is deemed UN-IMPORTANT by many! Go figure.....
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 17, 2015 17:26:22 GMT -5
I was born in the early 1950s, and during my youth I sat through more Gospel meetings than I usually care to think about. I did stay awake, and I did listen. Many of the meetings were preached by our state's head worker. In these pre-Secret Sect and pre-internet meetings, it was claimed that this Way goes all the way back to the Shores of Galilee, and therefore, all other Christian denominations were WRONG! Apostolic Succession was a VERY IMPORTANT selling point of the 2x2s at that time, before folks had access to information indicating otherwise. Now, with all the information available which refutes the Apostolic Succession, it is deemed UN-IMPORTANT by many! Go figure..... Yep! It is amazing how beliefs can suddenly change when they need to in order to survive.
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Post by Mary on Mar 17, 2015 18:31:52 GMT -5
No it does not reflect review005's geographic area or age. I am from the same geographic area and similar age and I grew up and heard that this fellowship was started by Jesus on the shores of Galilee and we are a continuation from Jesus day in the same meetings and conventions that review005 went to. They used the fact that we still meet in homes the same as we did in Jesus day and have no name because we have no earthy founder and all other churches were a break away from us as proof. Interesting that review005 says that he knew about William Irvine - when his siblings and those in his area and age did not. Review005 is in his 50s. By the time we (me and him) were born into the fellowship the theory was well alive. We were specifically taught that this fellowship was started by Jesus and handed down generation to generation.
Review005 says that he “was never taught that our fellowship has no human founder”. Yet he goes on to say that he heard with his own ears when he was young from old people of Irish stock and what he later read in John Long's journal and John Patterson's writing that our fellowship has no human founder." He also wrote "I know and knew about William Irvine and I know that he is not the founder of our fellowship.”
So here he contradicts himself saying he was never taught they had no human founder (meaning he must have been taught they do have an earthy founder) while at the same time saying Long and Patterson said we have no earthly founder. He goes on to say that he KNOWS that Irvine is not the founder of their fellowship. ( so who is the founder of your fellowship review005? )
reivew005 wrote that that he “ understood it that "we seek to pattern ourselves on what was lived and taught on the shores of Galilee not that there is some line going back to Galilee".
My response is that it was never preached that ‘it’ (the fellowship) was a pattern, it was always taught that it was from the shores of Galilee. It was preached that Jesus was our pattern but our church has come down through the ages from Jesus day. We had no name as we were the original and meetings still being in the home (people have secretly being meeting like this throughout the ages since Jesus even in the dark ages we were taught).
Review005 wrote: I also know because of what I have heard with my own ears when I was young from old people of Irish stock and what I later read in John Long's journal and John Patterson's writing that our fellowship has no human founder. I know and knew about William Irvine and I know that he is not the founder of our fellowship.”
I also heard from an Irish couple after leaving, who said they always knew that the fellowship was started by William Irvine and knew the history of the group and was surprised when they arrived in New Zealand that the workers were preaching that they were a continuation of the true church and had no earthy founder. They said they soon learned to keep quiet about the history fo the churc. This is also in the same area and they are a bit older than review005 and myself. I do not know how long John Long’s journal and John Patterson’s writings have been out in the public arena but were not aware they were out there when we were teenagers 35 – 40 years ago. I was not aware of these letters being around that long ago.
Review005 denies that William Irvine was the founder and rather than admitting the group has a founder saying “I knew they were a group of men and women who in raw courage and faith stepped away from the denominations of the time. They were not finding spiritual life and Christ in those denominations.”
I admire those today who have the raw courage and faith to step away from the fellowship called on this board the 2x2s and have found life outside of the fellowship which minimises, twists and turns about their history and how they have denied this over the years. We were different from other churches because we were founded from Jesus and all other churches were a break away from us. We had no name because we were the original and because all churches needed a name as they were a break away from us, that is why other churches need a name.
Those in the fellowship put a lot of energy into trying to deny that they ever said that they never had any earthly founder yet one of the concerns people have is that this was preached throughout their lives in the fellowship. We know what we heard. It was the no earthy founder preaching that made them the true church and set them apart from other churches that had an earthly founder. Thank God that a lot of us have seen through the shallowness and excuses of their distortions and their trying to convince us we never heard what we heard. Interesting so many people heard it. And review005, my lovely mother who you knew quiet well went to her death bed believing that they were started by Jesus and that all this business that the fellowship did not go back to Jesus was a lie. Thank God for us who have seen the light and are no longer fooled into thinking we did not hear what we heard. Interesting your own siblings also grew up believing that there was no earthly founder and that your fellowship was started by Jesus. Review005 wrote: “They weren't perfect, they made mistakes, our ministry and fellowship has learnt as time has passed but I stand in awe of what those men and women did. Sleeping in haystacks or under a hedge, eating a turnip they pulled from a field for their meal. Faced strong and physical opposition from those of the denominations they stepped away from.”
Throughout the ages there have been men and women and today men and woman are still doing it and they are nothing to do with your fellowship. It is the churches that faced strong opposition from the workers who broke away and started their own church. It was the workers who were putting down the churches. There was no misunderstanding, people know what they heard and there were too many people who heard it.
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Post by CherieKropp on Mar 17, 2015 22:37:07 GMT -5
review - I'm not familiar with John Patterson. Where may I read his account?
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Post by Mary on Mar 18, 2015 1:29:48 GMT -5
Review005 says that he “was never taught that our fellowship has no human founder” then goes on to say we have no human founder. review005 also quotes John Long and Patterson as saying we have no earthly founder but then says he was never taught it. Well you just read here that these guys taught it and you quoted it. You just said it at the same time saying you have never heard it. You say that Irvine was not the founder of your fellowship but will not say who you think is saying that he had always known about Irvine but it seems knowing him and acknowledging he started or someone else started their fellowship are two different things. I ask again who do you say is the founder of your fellowship, review005?
Ohhh, I know if you have no earthly founder then Jesus was your founder.... but that cannot be because Jesus started Christianity when he came to earth so He is also an earthly founder.
You are doing the fellowship a great disservice by trying to play with words. Never heard no earthly founder but then you go and say we have no earthy founder.
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Post by Roselyn T on Mar 18, 2015 2:40:06 GMT -5
It should be no surprise that review005 and other workers are going to hold the line that the 2x2's have no human founder. If they admitted that William Irvine got the fellowship up and running it apparently poses a few obvious challenges for workers who believe that what they have is the only true way on earth. It shouldn't as obviously, William Irvine was the main founder. Gordon McNab referred to him and other workers have privately indicated it to us. It's interesting that a number of workers will say he was the first worker - not sure what the difference is between that and William Irvine being the person who got the fellowship going or in other words was it's founder. Presumably those who won't admit there is a human founder will say that Jesus founded their fellowship which raises two questions: 1. Why would Jesus found a fellowship that doesn't recognise His deity? and 2. What happened before 1897 (and I don't want all the Waldensians stuff which is irrelevant) - wasn't anyone saved between when the Apostles died and when "the Truth" reappeared in 1897? Great point Ross ! What did happen before 1897 ? So does that mean no one was saved after the Apostles died up until 1897?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2015 4:07:14 GMT -5
Every denomination has a founder(s) who do you say it is? They all say Jesus... But does their teaching/belief line up with Jesus teaching in the 1st century or NOT? Now, you know why we have 40,000 plus so-call denomination.Here lies the crux of the matter, we spend too much time criticizing and running down other denominations and vice versa to the hurt and detriment of the Kingdom, more concerned about who is right and who is wrong based on our own understanding.. Which may or may not be absolutely correct and perfect because we are not perfect and have been warned about leaning to our own understanding.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2015 5:03:56 GMT -5
Quote - "THE MOST DANGEROUS LIE IS THAT WHICH MOST CLOSELY RESEMBLES THE TRUTH!!"
That's more true than you might realize.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 18, 2015 5:21:53 GMT -5
Sorry, I don't understand your answer. Confused...........again lol Alvin Let me try again. How can William Irvine be the founder of Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry and fellowship when Jesus started this 2000 yrs ago?This is how William Irvine can be the founder of Jesus' apostolic ministry . The same way Queen Victoria got to be the founder of the English line of kings and queens.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2015 7:08:40 GMT -5
Repeat - if I am inspired by the bible to go preaching, am I starting a "new" religion or affirming the "old" ?
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Post by maryhig on Mar 18, 2015 7:36:39 GMT -5
Repeat - if I am inspired by the bible to go preaching, am I starting a "new" religion or affirming the "old" ?That's spot on! I totally agree. These men decided to follow Jesus the way he taught and bypass religion and all the pomp and ceremonies and traditions and went back to basics. That's what I have always been told and like review005 I've always thought of it being a revival rather than a continuation through the centuries of what Jesus taught! And I in my lifetime have seen living witnesses who have lived it. So I believe this is the right way! And the more we deny sin in our hearts by letting Christ in, and follow Jesus' life the closer we become to God!
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