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Post by slowtosee on Mar 19, 2015 8:03:41 GMT -5
....with the understanding that Jesus is the way, and "churches" are clubs trying to support and encourage people to point to "the way", but sadly it is easy for the clubs to become focused on themselves and even hinder and take away from their intentions, thus declaring themselves as the way. Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2015 8:33:38 GMT -5
....with the understanding that Jesus is the way, and "churches" are clubs trying to support and encourage people to point to "the way", but sadly it is easy for the clubs to become focused on themselves and even hinder and take away from their intentions, thus declaring themselves as the way. Alvin That's it in a nutshell. There are none so blind as those who will not, choose not, to see.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 19, 2015 14:38:50 GMT -5
You said, "thousands of folk have moved to other Christian churches due to teaching they believe is wrong in the 2x2's."
Why did so many move to other Christian churches lately but did NOT move to other churches before that time?
If it was because they believed the teaching was wrong in the 2x2's, why didn't they leave & go to other churches before that time?
Based on exit letters that have been published there were a number of people that left prior to 1980/1990's due to disagreements over doctrine/teaching and went to other churches.It's difficult to say what happened prior to that time because communicating wasn't so easy and what happened in one part of the world wasn't necessarily known in another part. In any case, based on what has been written by many, the fellowship seems have to grown pretty well up until the 1980's. This growth trend then started to reverse.
In Australia (where I know the situation reasonably well) hundreds (maybe not thousands because there were probably 15,000 or so at the height and it would only be around 9000 - 10,000 now) have left to go to other churches. Of the 100 or so people that I know who left in and around Sydney in the period 1996-2003 there is only one person who hasn't remained a Christian and doesn't go to a Christian church regularly. I think there are a few reasons why folk started leaving in greater numbers for other churches after 1980's/1990's - I am sure there are other reasons than these but the following would reflect the Sydney experience: 1. The Secret Sect - a very factual account of the early days which exposed the previous "cover-up" about the beginnings and also touched on teaching/doctrine 2. The internet and instant communication/access to documents - this enabled many friends in Australia to connect up and discuss their concerns. The work of Cherie and others made information available. The internet also enabled folk to read widely on Christian teaching/doctrine 3. The 1996 Summer Letter from the USA which was very well written about teaching/doctrine/practices 4. The reaction of the workers to questions and other feedback. In our experience, this was very negative so it made it much easier to leave. We reconciled very quickly that it you are treated badly for asking questions and told you are blaspheming then that is so ridiculous that you wonder what they are trying to protect. As many have testified, there is very little love shown in the leaving process. 5. Greater education of younger people and folk of all ages generally from the 1970's and 1980's - more were studying and learning etc. We were taught to question at school so it seemed reasonable to ask questions about Christianity and faith. The focus on education has only increased so naturally people are going to ask more questions. Some workers seemed ill-equipped to handle this. When you put all these factors together, the cumulative effect is that it becomes much easier to leave and go to another church. With the internet you can easily find out what other churches believe and then pick out a couple that you might be interested in. You can listen to sermons etc. In the Sydney experience, there was a great minister who just spent hours and hours with folk who were asking questions and it was a pretty amazing experience. This was contrasted with a number of workers telling us that we had "lost our faith" etc I agree that the book The Secret Sect & the letter had a lot to do with people becoming more aware of the beginnings of the 2x2's.
What I really doubt is that there were very many people who left prior to 1980/1990's who went on to other churches.
People left, but I never heard anyone boasting about going to another church due to disagreements over the doctrine/teaching of the 2x2's.
The point that I make is that I doubt that what you & others have done by going to other churches is actually due to disagreements over doctrine/teaching as much as have been stated.
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Post by Mary on Mar 19, 2015 16:25:27 GMT -5
Thanks - you keep saying this. I get the point but I was responding to Dmg's question. It must be different in NZ but in the last 20 years I have only heard of 1 couple locally who were going to another church (ie they were Christians) starting to go to 2x2 meetings locally. They mentioned to me that they were embarrassed when they found out that the 2x2 church was exclusive ie this was not revealed to them in the initial meetings they attended. Ross. The folks I refer to speak of never having received Christ when going to another church. The ministers in those churches were unable to help them. They found Christ & salvation when they attended Gospel meetings. Folks like the ones you describe did the right thing. If people are satisfied in the present church they attend they are well advised to remain there! You have done the right thing, you have found a church you are satisfied in and you are remaining there. As Ross said there are very few who ever find salvation in Gospel meetings....... But they find it in churches. As for answering questions, it has been discussed on here that many people have experienced their questions not being answered by workers. After all the years my family have been in meetings when i asked a worker a question her response was that I had been blinded because I had been to a Baptist church. Do you call that an answer? I told her I had been to a Baptist church one time. It was just an excuse for her to not answer my question. I was at a cross roads but she did not care. Of course I then went to a Baptist [pastor and he answered my questions. People in meetings who ask questions are seen as doubting (doubting who? the workers) lacking in faith (faith in the workers) and any other sort of put down the workers can think of to stop questions because they know they are wrong. People have rung you up after you placed ads in local newspapers advertising the meetings and they have asked a bit about your church before attending meetings and you have refused to answer their questions and hung the phone up on them. These are people inquiring about meetings through your ad. is that answering questions or a refusal to? Covering something up? If you claim William Irvine (or any man) is not the founder or did not start your fellowship/church then don't go saying that other churches have an earthly founder and you don't. The difference between you and those in churches is that churches are honest about it whereas you try and play with words. One is called honesty, the other is not.
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Post by bendle on Mar 19, 2015 19:29:15 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing, bendle. Wondering at your comment about not ever being able to share what your childhood was like... Wondering if your parents were the strict authoritarian type? Did they restrict you from a participating in a lot that you wanted to? Did you ever in all your life have a God experience? Hi Cherie and others and thanks for your comments. I wasn't after sympathy- Honestly! To answer your questions Cherie, RE being unable to talk about my childhood etc. My parents, well more my mother, were the very strict authoritarian isolationist type. I went to a very small primary school out here in the back of beyond in wales and it was usual for all the kids to go to each others birthday parties etc. I would go to others but I only once had a party myself. I had all the lads of my year over (all 5 of them) and they absolutely wet themselves laughing when my mother insisted on singing grace etc. I got so much mickey taking for my party that I never had another. Outsider kids as friends were not welcomed in the house to the point where it felt uncomfortable and we just stopped trying to have friends round. Locally the only 'friends' kids were my cousins so we tended to be quite close. We were very restricted in what we could do. We moved to another part of the uk while I was still a kid and I struggled a bit with adapting to that move. Still isolated I wanted to go to karate classes in the local village. Another 'friends' kid from nearby was going and I could have got a lift with them but mother vetoed it. I worked on it gradually 'til I had got from a 'No' to a 'We'll think about it' and just when I felt I was getting somewhere a visiting American sister worker at Suffolk convention gave a sermon about how being isolated from the world in every possible way was the correct thing. I sat there thinking 'there goes my karate classes' and I was right. A local farmer was the branch secretary of the local branch of the Young Farmers (a uk nationwide organisation) and wanted us to get involved with that. We were all for it obviously, but no we couldn't go. My grandparents on both sides were brought up in 'chapel' households. Methodist I assume but never really talked about, and that would have been fairly strict and uncompromising I gather and their decision to leave the chapel would have had repercussions within both the family and community so I can understand them having a 'backs to the wall' mentality in their view on everyone around them. They then passed that on to their children, especially on my mothers side. As with Snow, my parents have mellowed somewhat. We'll never have a great relationship i think, but I want my children to know and love them as far as is possible. I hope that I never ram my views down my children's throats but allow them to question and develop their own views and if that involves religion then that will be fine. We never had the opportunity to question anything. Questioning was bad. We were expected to accept everything like good little sheep. No discussion as to the 'church' was ever had or countenanced. I doubt that my parents know the real 'truth' as to the origins of the 'church' and I doubt that my grandparents do/did either. I never heard mention of it from a 'worker' and I've an excellent memory and had a very high meeting/mission/convention attendance rate! We read newspapers, we eventually had a car with a radio from which the aerial couldn't be removed and during my childhood we got tractors with working radios. I spent countless hours in my early teens driving tractors working down land and being able to see a good distance around me it was safe to have the radio on in spite of dire warnings from my mother. I got to know and hear so much about the rest of the world from sitting on a tractor seat. As to the 'God' experience. I thought I did, but later realised it was nothing but a mental product of external pressure and desperately trying to fit in. I have never fitted in. A few years ago after much soul searching I came to the views that I hold and the principles that I live by and that'll do just fine for me. My views are my own. I have told my wife as much as i can bear to but there comes a point for me when i start to wonder if i'm overplaying it a bit due to the reaction of the people i'm telling and i tone down what i'm telling them! Writing these posts out just confirms it for me that i'm not. It was a horribly desolate upbringing in one sense, that to me was all for nothing, yet i grew up on a farm and loved that, wouldn't change it for the world and wish i could give that experience to my children. Thank you for your interest.
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Post by Roselyn T on Mar 20, 2015 1:55:56 GMT -5
Ross. The folks I refer to speak of never having received Christ when going to another church. The ministers in those churches were unable to help them. They found Christ & salvation when they attended Gospel meetings. Folks like the ones you describe did the right thing. If people are satisfied in the present church they attend they are well advised to remain there! You have done the right thing, you have found a church you are satisfied in and you are remaining there. As Ross said there are very few who ever find salvation in Gospel meetings....... But they find it in churches. As for answering questions, it has been discussed on here that many people have experienced their questions not being answered by workers. After all the years my family have been in meetings when i asked a worker a question her response was that I had been blinded because I had been to a Baptist church. Do you call that an answer? I told her I had been to a Baptist church one time. It was just an excuse for her to not answer my question. I was at a cross roads but she did not care. Of course I then went to a Baptist [pastor and he answered my questions. People in meetings who ask questions are seen as doubting (doubting who? the workers) lacking in faith (faith in the workers) and any other sort of put down the workers can think of to stop questions because they know they are wrong. People have rung you up after you placed ads in local newspapers advertising the meetings and they have asked a bit about your church before attending meetings and you have refused to answer their questions and hung the phone up on them. These are people inquiring about meetings through your ad. is that answering questions or a refusal to? Covering something up? If you claim William Irvine (or any man) is not the founder or did not start your fellowship/church then don't go saying that other churches have an earthly founder and you don't. The difference between you and those in churches is that churches are honest about it whereas you try and play with words. One is called honesty, the other is not. Great post Mary ! That is exactly what happens when people dare to question..... its either you have lost your faith, you are doubting or you don't have the right spirit !!
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Post by Roselyn T on Mar 20, 2015 1:58:40 GMT -5
"DEFINITION OF FOUNDERThose who refer to Wm Irvine the "founder" of the 2x2 ministry and church use the word in the context of an "originator." They are not saying that Irvine originated the idea of the apostles traveling through Israel in pairs; or the idea of Christians meeting for fellowship or worship in homes; or any other true Christian doctrine. They are saying that Wm Irvine founded or originated the fellowship of the friends and workers as a body of people. Irvine also founded or originated the idea that ministers of our day should imitate some (but not all) of the instructions Jesus gave to the Apostles on their limited mission to Israel in Matthew 10. While Wm Irvine was still the recognized as a/the leader in the fellowship, the workers and friends freely acknowledged that they were not following a "founder," but were seeking to return to the principles and practices of the New Testament Church. However, it is possible for believers to simultaneously follow a founder and seek to return to the Bible. The two are not mutually exclusive. Many believe the early workers and friends followed a founder as a group or movement, and at the same time they were sincerely trying to return to principles and practices they found in the New Testament."Pity help those who refer to WI as the founder if they need to do it with all the exclusions, conditions and explanations as are listed above!!!!
At the end of the 19th century/beginning of the 20th century there were needy, sincere people (men and women) who were disillusioned with their Christian experience and life within denominational-ism of the day. In faith, raw courage and amidst much opposition they stepped out of it and found Christ and spiritual life.
William Irvine was prominent, amongst the oldest of them and had a strong leader personality. He was a leader for some years. Before the first decade of the century had ended members were understanding that he has lost the anointing he once had. By 1914 he was separated from the movement and then embarked on what seems to be a delusional mission to Jerusalem. Meanwhile the movement rapidly expanded in the decades that followed in countries around the globe....it wasn't built on nor did it depend on William Irvine.
To claim he was the founder does gross injustice to a)the common understanding and meaning of the word b)the other men and women whom God awakened and used in that era.
Nobody was a founder. Nobody (except perhaps Irvine in his delusional state) wanted to be known as the founder! These were people stepping out from position and pride of clergyism that had only brought them disillusionment !
For true Christians to claim a man as a founder is at best an irrelevancy...and at worst makes him an idol.
At the transfiguration "They saw no man save Jesus only"/ or as the hymn says "We would see Jesus, other lights are fading"?
I speak freely and openly with anyone about the beginnings of our fellowship, about Irvine, Cooney etc.
But I will not mislead people by incorrectly stating that Irvine is the founder.
Pre 1897/98 I have no reason to believe our fellowship is a continuation of any 'line' back to the time of Christ.
I believe Scripture that teaches "Those that seek shall find". So in any age those that have in honesty and simplicity seek God find him.
Historians such as Jaenen, Broadbent write of individuals and groups through the ages who have been separated from mainline denominations and experienced the living Christ.
What was relevant and important in 1897/98 was that people, disillusioned and disappointed with 'clergyism' etc within the denominations, stepped out of it and found the living Christ. The essence/Spirit of the Christ who had walked on the 'shores of Galilee'.
Would anyone here deny them their experience?
Thanks, for sharing your understanding review005...
The ex-2x2 members have a different understanding of WI as the founder than the current 2x2s. The ex-2x2 believe William Irvine is the founder of the 2x2 original group. The 2x2s believe Jesus is the founder of their faith, Itinerant apostolic ministry and the way of worship in the New Testament and William Irvine was one of the early 2x2 worker leaders. William Irvine, John Long, just continue or copy what John Govan had started 2x2 worker apostolic ministry. John Govan didn't accept William Irvine, John Long and the 2x2 workers method of preaching, sending out their own 2x2 workers... From 1898-1907 it seemed John Long continued the same practice of the Faith Mission by sending his 2x2 converts to join the churches of their choice, this lead to his excommunication in 1907 from the 2x2 workers group.
William Irvine was a Faith Mission from 1893-1900. John Long became a Faith Mission prayer Union member in 1898-1915. Jack and Mae Carroll were Faith Mission Prayer Union members and Mae became a Faith Mission preacher and left 1901.
William Irvine, John Long didn't want to start a NEW denomination/sect, they just want to continue Jesus New Testament 2x2 Itinerant apostolic ministry and fellowship which John Govan had started. Most of the 2x2 workers disagree some of John Govan ways of doing things. The 2x2 workers did NOT want to send their converts to join the churches of their choices like the Faith Mission. The 2x2 workers want having emblems in the homes of the friends, no salary for the workers. Faith Mission workers did NOT baptize their converts.
William Irvine and most of the 2x2 workers want to keep Jesus 2x2 Itinerant apostolic ministry, having the emblems in the homes of believers, baptizing their converts and NOT sending their converts back to the churches of their choices. They didn't take a name because Jesus and His apostles didn't have one, so many names were given to them by outsiders... They call their followers as Cooneyites, Irvinites, Carrolites, etc..
Review what are your views on Nathan's ideas of the continuing line from Jesus through to the workers ?
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Post by Mary on Mar 20, 2015 4:19:22 GMT -5
Review005 wrote: Ross
doesn't seem you can live with it?
anyway
you wrote:"Like you, I also believe that in any age those who have honestly sought God have found Him - although I am sure it is God who does the finding"
The verse I quoted read "seek, and ye shall find" Perhaps you know better than Jesus?
I lost count of the number of times I heard a worker say God will find a seeking soul and God will bring people to them. No need for them to go to the people, as God will bring people to them.
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Post by snow on Mar 20, 2015 10:52:55 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Mar 20, 2015 11:59:09 GMT -5
Like you say, Nathan, let the reader decide. Seeing as the current day Waldeneses do see him as their founder, you just have a bunch of people that want it to be a link. Wanting it to be doesn't necessarily make it so.
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Post by snow on Mar 20, 2015 12:22:21 GMT -5
Like you say, Nathan, let the reader decide. Seeing as the current day Waldeneses do see him as their founder, you just have a bunch of people that want it to be a link. Wanting it to be doesn't necessarily make it so. You shared the RCC point of view on Peter Waldo, a French as a Founder of the Vaudois/Waldenses.... And I just try to share the Vaudois goes back to Paul, as their Founder when he was in Rome, from different historians historical documents. Yes, I agree let the readers decide, that is why I provide my link below yours. It is NOT mine own idea that Peter Waldo wasn't the Founder.No but you quote people who would very much like to establish that link and as you know the current Waldeneses claim him as their founder. They still exist as their own religion so that in and of itself says that it can't be an unbroken link to the 2x2's.
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Post by snow on Mar 20, 2015 14:47:13 GMT -5
So they don't know the history of their own church? That's stretching it don't you think?
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Post by slowtosee on Mar 20, 2015 18:51:26 GMT -5
I wonder why so many churches make false claims and try to trace their history back to the Waldenses. Their history is quite well documented, with a number of books written by and about them, and refutes many of the false claims quite readily, but somehow the myths get perpetuated. I understand how we like to be connected somehow with martyrs or historical heroes, but if history does not support the "claimed" connections, it really undermines the credibility of those making the claims imo. The Seventh Day Adventist church has used the Waldensians as support for worshiping on the Sabbath,(Saturday) , but NOT true according to waldensians. Nathan, have you ever talked to or communicated with present day Waldensians who know their history , doctrine , etc. very well ? The answer, I think, would be the same as this person received "historically spoken, have nothing to do with each other." Here is one person who asked a simple question and got satisfactory answer. Also some historical books about Waldenses recommended . If you are at all serious about trying to validate , even a remote connection to the Waldenses and 2x2 church, it might be an idea to read those books? I imagine you would find the connection about as remote,as the connection of you and me to Adam and Eve. Yes, one could say there is a connection, but not even close. Oh, oh, now my pasting is getting too long too. Cheers Alvin www.lifeassuranceministries.org/studies/waldenses.htmlJune 19, 2006 Dear Brothers, I am Andras Szalai, director of an evangelical apologetics research center in Hungary and I need your help -professional help of a Waldesian theologian - in a certain research project. It's about the Seventh-day Adventist Church which claims that Waldesians have kept the law of the Sabbath. As far as I know, it is not true, but I'd like to know your opinion. If Waldesians have ever kept the Sabbath, please give me historical sources..................... Dear Brother Andras, My name is Thomas Soggin, a Waldensian Minister in Bergamo (North Italy), in charge - by our Board, the Tavola Valdese - to answer to your letter. If you are interested in the Waldensian Churches in Italy (North, Center, and South Italy) and in Uruguay and Argentina, in past and present you can look in the site of our Publishing House: Claudiana (Torino), and email. You can try also to find and study the following book: Giorgio Tourn, You are my witnesses – The Waldensians across 800 years, Claudiana Editor 1989 - Distributed in North America by P.O. Box 37844 - CINCINNATI,OH 45222 (USA). ................But in 1655 the Waldensian Churches had its own Confession of Faith, hurriedly drafted in Italian immediately after the massacre of the Waldenses, called “Piedmonts Easters” (See Milton’s Avange o Lord…!. This confession of faith was simply a shortened version in Italian of the Huguenot Confession of faith of 1559: it confirmed that theologycally the Waldenses were in the mainstream of Presbyterian Calvinism. It is still the basis of nowadays Waldensian beliefs, which the Candidates have to undersign in front of the General Assembly before becoming ordained as Ministers (VDM) in our churches (without any kind of Anabaptism, or Sabbath instead of Sunday!). By Andras Szalai and Thomas Soggin Copyright 2007 Life Assurance Ministries, Inc., Glendale, Arizona, USA. All rights reserved. Revised May 1, 2007. Contact email: proclamation@gmail.com HOME / STUDIES / DID THE WALDENSES KEEP THE 7TH DAY SABBATH? Official response of the Waldesian Church in Italy about SDA claim E-mails from Pastor Thomas Soggin of the Waldesian Church in Bergamo to Andras Szalai, director of Apologia Research Center (CFAR Hungary) concerning the Seventh-day Adventist claim that Waldesians were Sabbath-keepers. June 19, 2006 Dear Brothers, I am Andras Szalai, director of an evangelical apologetics research center in Hungary and I need your help -professional help of a Waldesian theologian - in a certain research project. It's about the Seventh-day Adventist Church which claims that Waldesians have kept the law of the Sabbath. As far as I know, it is not true, but I'd like to know your opinion. If Waldesians have ever kept the Sabbath, please give me historical sources. Andras Szalai Apologia Research Center (CFAR Hungary) Pf. 22, 1576 Budapest. Hungary www.apologia.hu, www.thecenters.org June 21, 2006 Dear Brother Andras, My name is Thomas Soggin, a Waldensian Minister in Bergamo (North Italy), in charge - by our Board, the Tavola Valdese - to answer to your letter. If you are interested in the Waldensian Churches in Italy (North, Center, and South Italy) and in Uruguay and Argentina, in past and present you can look in the site of our Publishing House: Claudiana (Torino), and email. You can try also to find and study the following book: Giorgio Tourn, You are my witnesses – The Waldensians across 800 years, Claudiana Editor 1989 - Distributed in North America by P.O. Box 37844 - CINCINNATI,OH 45222 (USA). In their 350 years before the Reformation their real problem was baptism - the link between baptism and Roman Catholic constantinianism, not the problem of baptism (by immersion or with sprinkling), neither the problem of Sabbath instead of Sunday. In a well-supplied library you can try to find the following books: 1) Jean Gonnet - Amedeo Molnar, Les vaudois au moyen age, Claudiana, Torino 1974 (French): In the XV century all the Waldensians (France, Italy: Piedmont, Calabria) where united with the Hussite movement: the Taborites Czechs (c/o Jan Hus! In that time there are also some Waldensians documents on baptism: pp., 434-437). 2) Amedeo Molnar, Storia dei valdesi/1, Dalle origini all’adesione alla Riforma, Claudiana, Torino 1974 (Italian). (They did not have interest in baptism as St. Paul wrote in I Cor.1,17): p. 274). 3) Carlo Papini, Valdo di Lione e i Çpoveri nello spiritoÈ, Claudiana, Torino, 2001. They were called: Mater Reformationis (=Mother of the Reformation) when they were before, as you know, during the Middle Ages a movement, but NOT a Church. After the Synod of Chanforan in Angrogne (1532) and later on, the Waldensians become a Reformed Presbyterian Church, as in Geneva. They adopted the Huguenot Reformed Confession of faith, of the so called Synod “De la Rochelle” of 1559 (but it was really the Paris Synod, their first Huguenot General Assembly). But in 1655 the Waldensian Churches had its own Confession of Faith, hurriedly drafted in Italian immediately after the massacre of the Waldenses, called “Piedmonts Easters” (See Milton’s Avange o Lord…!. This confession of faith was simply a shortened version in Italian of the Huguenot Confession of faith of 1559: it confirmed that theologycally the Waldenses were in the mainstream of Presbyterian Calvinism. It is still the basis of nowadays Waldensian beliefs, which the Candidates have to undersign in front of the General Assembly before becoming ordained as Ministers (VDM) in our churches (without any kind of Anabaptism, or Sabbath instead of Sunday!). Therefore, the Waldensians did not keep the Sabbath (in the sense of Saturday instead of Sunday) and were not guardians of the "Sabbath Truth” as somebody calls it. The Waldensians never followed the Seventh-day Adventist’s Sabbath but they followed more Paul in Romans 14,5-8. We can therefore say very clearly that the Waldensians were not Seventh-day Sabbath keepers and they were not persecuted for keeping Saturday as the Sabbath! Thy were persecuted, [from 1532 (when they joined the Reformation - Angrogna Synod) to 1848 (when they received religious freedom)], because of their Reformed-Calvinistic faith in Christ. With my best regards, yours, Thomas Soggin June 22, 2006 Dear Brother Thomas, Just one more thing. May I use your letter as an official answer of the Waldesian Church for refuting the Seventh-day Adventist claim? (As I wrote they claim Waldesians kept the Sabbath just like they; this way they want to establish a historical continuity with your church...) In the case you allow me to use your letter I would also send it to some American researchers, who would do only what we do, telling SDAs, that they cannot use Waldesians to prove the historicity of their teaching. God bless you! Andras June 23, 2006 Dear Brother Andreas, Surely you may use my letter with the whole documentation, because the old Waldensian movement and the Seventh-day Adventist claim, have, historically spoken, nothing to do with each other, neither the Waldensian Reformed Church after the Reformation (1532
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Post by CherieKropp on Mar 20, 2015 21:32:24 GMT -5
Story of Chris Cahill, ex2x2, now a Waldensian--posted on TLC Website Probably who Nate is talking about. thelibertyconnection.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=183:cahill-chris&catid=5:recent-exit-stories&Itemid=6
By Chris Cahill A little bit about me---I was born in what you call a 2x2 home, but I did not profess. I knew a little bit about the history growing up, as I would spend summers visiting my grannies in Oregon (one in Salem, the other in Eugene). Both my grannies had professed through Cooney, back in the days when Irvine was still part of the fellowship. My grams in Eugene was extremely close to me--out of all her 9 grandchildren I was her favorite. She confided in me quite a bit about what she knew about the history--she did not want to see me get entrapped in this way as she had been. She told me that “a lot of people call us Cooneyites” and also about how the head worker had bullied her, telling her to “burn” old letters etc. that referenced the early leaders and to keep quiet about the history. Years afterwards she still wept to me about it--she was quite a packrat and hated giving up her memories. To the horror of my parents, I was the recipient of a full scholarship to a Catholic University--Santa Clara and once I left home I never attended a meeting again, so it has been many years. At Santa Clara, I met my wife to be--she has a Waldensian background. There was an entire community of Waldensian students at college with us. I have found that many Waldensians prefer a Catholic education for their children as it is closest to their own beliefs. I sent my own children to Catholic prep schools and then Catholic colleges. Two of them went to my old Alma Mater, Santa Clara! Nicole (or Nick) as I call her came from a very old Waldensian family, and I was intrigued by them (and her)! Her family is extremely cosmopolitan, and she was raised in France. One thing that few outsiders realize about the Waldensians is that the history of the church is intertwined with the history of winemaking. If you look at maps of Europe, you will find that the church thrived in the areas known for their exceptional viticulture and enology. Nick’s family has been winemakers throughout many centuries and they now own many vineyards. They also have a castle that dates back to the early middle ages. Owning a family castle may sound grand--but it is not a place that many people would want to live. It is extremely old--mostly in rubble--few modern conveniences and unlivable except for one section. However, every summer the family spends some time there and I have to say that the one great benefit of the place is that it is full of family (and thus Waldensian) history. My favorite part is the chapel--which is actually still quite beautiful due to a great-great-great-great-great grandmother of Nicole’s who funded a restoration in the 1700‘s. The chapel has served the local Waldensian community since the 1500’s and it is adjacent to a family/Waldenisan community cemetery that dates even further back than the chapel -- some of the graves date back to the 1300‘s! This cemetery has many graves that are marked “moine” that is the French word for “monk”. In the early days of the church, those who devoted their lives to church service were called monks. The gravestones are decorated with Waldensian symbols. In the chapel, we have artwork, including a magnificent stained glass that is over 500 years old which depicts not only Waldensian church history, but also the stories of several family members who were prominent in the church. We also have several statues, my favorite is of the Virgin Mary--when my wife and I were married part of the Waldensian ritual was to place flowers in front of this statue--asking the Virgin to bless our marriage. Our own children have followed this beautiful old Waldensian tradition at their own marriage ceremonies.
We also have a little museum. Most Waldensian churches--including my local one that I have provided a link to have a museum (and a winery--our local churches winery is a huge tourist attraction--visit us!), because we cherish and preserve our history. I admit that this was difficult in the times when there were not many written materials, but we still have a wealth of historical riches. Confirmation gowns, pendants and pins, family portraits--containing symbols that are rich in hidden meaning!And from the 1600’s on we have written history. We have family bibles, diaries, written accounts. I love flipping through those old family bibles (even though I cannot understand them--the very old bibles are the Vulgate--the bible that we use now is the “Catholic Living Bible“ because it reads like a novel--very easy!) and looking at the names of those who have gone before! Some of the important family stories have been passed on--first through the oral tradition for many years--then written out centuries later. According to family history, three members of Nick’s family were persecuted by the Catholic church. Interestingly enough, family tradition holds that these people were persecuted because wealthy bishops wanted their vineyards, religious differences were used merely as a flimsy excuse to provide cover for a bold land-grab. All three eventually went back to the Catholic church in order to retain their family lands. What I love best about the church are the wonderful little traditions and French sayings that have become part of our life through the centuries. We just finished having a family reunion--as the Waldensians like to say, we bathed ourselves in family (nous avons pris un bain de famille). This is similar to how the Jewish people have Hebrew sayings, and the Catholics have Latin--French is the language of our church and we have many little everyday French sayings that have come down to us due to that association. Above, someone said that the Waldensians have “conventions.” Well, the closest thing in my experience is that we have a Waldensian Festival every August, but this festival is a very new development, it only dates back to 1976. It is fantastic--we have lots of good wine, we show off our crafts, have food vendors, entertainers and games. It is very similar to a fair. I don’t see any similarities to convention, but you are welcome to come and see for yourself! It is certainly a lot of fun--and our family sells quite a bit of wine each year there…. I had heard of the 2x2 trying to make a connection between themselves and our church many years ago--my father pulled out a paper written by that Cornelius guy about a dozen years ago (on fete le Thanksgiving!). We all thought it was quite silly (even my 2x2Cooneyite parents) and took little stock in it.[NOTE from Cherie: Cornelius Janean, author of “The Apostles Doctrine & Fellowship”] More recently my wife saw Nathan’s ramblings on the web--and came to me saying--someone is interested in the Church! She was very excited--saying that she didn’t know people were interested in the church anymore--so she begged me to come here and tell about our church. Well--after checking it out--most here are NOT interested in our church. They are interested in proving that there is one “true” church and that the Waldensians were it for a brief time--but that now it is the 2x2/Cooneyites. Good luck with that!
Most Christians understand that the true church is the believers. There have always been believers throughout history. Doesn’t matter what their church affiliation was. In 1600, there were true believers in my group, there were also Catholics who were true believers. And there were people in both churches who were NOT true believers. There was not, never has been, and never will be a true church (where people are saved just by membership alone) and a false church (where people are doomed regardless of their relationship with God). It is a very, very dangerous idea to believe that you need to find this true church to be saved. I am not interested in this train of thought. If anyone is interested in Waldensians--you are welcome to come to our forums--both at my church and others. I have little interest in the 2x2/Cooneyites. They have been in my rear view mirror for many years--and that is where I intend to keep them. I wrote out my history in response to Cherie--who has done such a great research job--she deserves to have this history if she wants it. If anyone wants to use it, they are welcome to it. By Chris Cahill October 16, 2008 Click here to go to Waldensian church website
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Post by Roselyn T on Mar 20, 2015 21:42:35 GMT -5
1) Rose T. wrote: Review what are your views on Nathan's ideas of the continuing line from Jesus through to the workers? NathanB: Let me clarify... It wasn't only my ideas.... I believe What has the same understanding, many of the early workers, the friends have the similar belief " goes back to the shores of Galilee" ... Nathan I meant your views on Peter Waldo & the Waldenese connection. I would be interested to see what Reviews comment would be on that ?
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Post by blacksheep on Mar 21, 2015 11:14:21 GMT -5
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Post by Roselyn T on Mar 21, 2015 20:43:34 GMT -5
Nathan I meant your views on Peter Waldo & the Waldenese connection. I would be interested to see what Reviews comment would be on that ? Here is Vaudois/Waldenses 68 A.D. and Peter Waldo 1170 A.D. connection. They called Peter Waldo and his followers in 1170 A.D. "The Poor men of Lyons, France".~~ Hi Alvin, I showed Chris Cahill, who was raised in a 2x2 home but didn't profess and now a current Waldensian church member. The Original Vaudois/Waldenese were disciples of Paul when he was in Rome 68 A.D. and Peter Waldo was a Roman Catholic Frenchman who was converted to a Waldenses in 1160 A.D. and he started in the ministry 1170 A.D. in France.Was Peter Waldo, a Frenchman in 1170 A.D. the Vaudois/ Waldenses Founder? The answer is "NO". Peter Allix: Some remarks upon the Eccesiastic History of the Ancient Church of Piedmont pp. 176-182. The Waldenses had stiffly opposed the abuses of the Roman Church, and they held their doctrine from father to son, ever SINCE the year A.D. 120, as they had heard and received it from their elders and ancestors. These believers of the valleys could "NOT" be so called from Peter Waldo of Lyons, France because he did "NOT" flourish at the soonest till the year 1170, according to Roger Hovenden, whereas the people of the valleys of Lucerne and Angrogne had the name of Wallenses from the beginning of the 12th century. I have already made it appear, that they separated themselves from the Church in Rome long before, and that the name Wallenses or Vaudois, was given to them from the place of their abode, which the habitants called les Vaux de Lucerne et Angrogne, that is to say, the Valley of Lucerne Angrogne, from which came the Latin name Valenses, which was afterwards changed to Valdenses, when the design was laid to make men believe Peter (Waldo) Valdo was their founder. It has often been said that a man Peter Waldo, who lived in Lyons, France about the year 1170, was really the founder of this "sect that was everywhere spoken against." But, history proves that such could "NOT" be the case, as tradition of the Vaudois existence from the days of the apostles can be traced back , they are not only spoken of as having been known for a long while back, but as being numerous all over Western Europe. For instance, in 1150 the Vaudoios were heard in Cologne, 1177 at Frankfurt, Nuremberg, and other Germans towns; large meetings were held by them at Metz in 1180; in Spain they were persecuted, in 1192 by Alfonso or Aragon, who mentions in his edict against them that he follows the example of his forefathers in forbidding their preaching. In 1170 they were forbidden to preach at Lyons, France by the Pope Lucius III, who edict against them. They abounded at this time in Piedmont, and in Dauphine; all over the Southern of France, at Naples in Sicily, and Southern Italy---in the Netherlands, Flanders, and Brabant --- in Northern France and in England. Who was Peter Waldo? Peter Waldo of Lyons, France, a sucessful merchant and banker, was aroused to see his need of salvation by the sudden death of one of the guests at a feast he had given. A Vaudois theologian directed Peter Waldo to the Lord's words in (Matthew 19:21) "If thou be Perfect, go and "sell" that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shall have treasure in Heaven, and come and follow me." Peter Waldo, therefore, made over his lands, property to his wife, SOLD the remainder, and distributed it among the poor. They Believe in Apostolic succession through the laying on of the hand of such had it on those really called to receive this grace. They taught that the Church of Rome had lost this when Pope Sylvester accepted the union of Church and State, but it remained among them. Raynonard, a notable linguist who examined certain Waldensian writings, was convinced of their antiquity. For instance, with regard to the "Noble Lesson," he wrote that "the date of the year 1100, which we read in the poem, deserves entire confidence." This is three-quarters of a century earlier that the Ministry article's date for the Waldensians. The below link is the rest of the article on the Vaudois/Waldenses and Peter Waldo. 2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/thread/edit/15Thank you Nathan, what I wanted to know was what Review's view is on this !
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Post by Roselyn T on Mar 26, 2015 0:40:35 GMT -5
Well it seems Review has gone quite on this one ! Maybe he doesn't agree with you Nathan ?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 4:18:29 GMT -5
Let's start a poll. Who thinks we should ban copy and paste "boiler plate text"
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 5:34:07 GMT -5
Yeah, right. I can't create quotes out of thin air - they have to be copied from someone. The only thing you can copy is a direct quote.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 6:36:35 GMT -5
Shucks! I have been advocating that before one ventures to post on here you should first throw your hat in to see what jumps on it; I will have to add this advice, also don a helmet, shield and some Armoury. This is like a battle field these days. Let brotherly/ sisterly love and respect for each other prevail, please. Beg to disagree with dignity, soft answers and soft words turneth away wrath.
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Post by blacksheep on Mar 26, 2015 13:28:57 GMT -5
Shucks! I have been advocating that before one ventures to post on here you should first throw your hat in to see what jumps on it; I will have to add this advice, also don a helmet, shield and some Armoury. This is like a battle field these days. Let brotherly/ sisterly love and respect for each other prevail, please. Beg to disagree with dignity, soft answers and soft words turneth away wrath. This brings to mind an old adage..... something about using due caution when entering into a wrestling match with certain types...its bound to involve a certain amount of nastiness, and one party is going to enjoy that, even if the other one doesn't!
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Post by Gene on Mar 26, 2015 17:16:00 GMT -5
Let's start a poll. Who thinks we should ban copy and paste "boiler plate text" Nope. Scroll, Bert, scroll! BTW, there's a nifty little wrist brace you can wear if the scrolling is causing a repetitive motion injury to your index finger, such as carpal tunnel syndrome.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 17:47:07 GMT -5
Shucks! I have been advocating that before one ventures to post on here you should first throw your hat in to see what jumps on it; I will have to add this advice, also don a helmet, shield and some Armoury. This is like a battle field these days. Let brotherly/ sisterly love and respect for each other prevail, please. Beg to disagree with dignity, soft answers and soft words turneth away wrath. This brings to mind an old adage..... something about using due caution when entering into a wrestling match with certain types...its bound to involve a certain amount of nastiness, and one party is going to enjoy that, even if the other one doesn't! Probably has something to do with hog wash. ?
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Post by open mind on Mar 26, 2015 20:41:08 GMT -5
So they don't know the history of their own church? That's stretching it don't you think? Many 2x2's dont....
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Post by snow on Mar 27, 2015 10:12:10 GMT -5
So they don't know the history of their own church? That's stretching it don't you think? Many 2x2's dont.... We are talking about Waldeneses. They do admit to a founder and it is Peter Waldo.
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Post by mdm on Mar 27, 2015 10:25:11 GMT -5
So they don't know the history of their own church? That's stretching it don't you think? Many 2x2's dont.... Not only do many not know, but many would rather not know, as it would contradict what they've been taught about the church. The only way they would be open to knowing is if the information came from the platform. Come to think of it, perhaps the reason the workers are hesitant to admit how the church was started even now when the information is available on the internet is that it would bring confusion to people as they've been told something else until now. I'm basing that on the recent explanation give by an overseer as to why they cannot publicly rectify a certain mistake they made: "Because most have heard one thing, if we were to go back and tell them something different, it would cause a lot of confusion." So, they just hope that by warning people against reading on the internet about the church they will prevent most from accessing information and being "confused" by it.
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Post by mdm on Mar 27, 2015 13:30:38 GMT -5
Not only do many not know, but many would rather not know, as it would contradict what they've been taught about the church. The only way they would be open to knowing is if the information came from the platform. Come to think of it, perhaps the reason the workers are hesitant to admit how the church was started even now when the information is available on the internet is that it would bring confusion to people as they've been told something else until now. I'm basing that on the recent explanation give by an overseer as to why they cannot publicly rectify a certain mistake they made: "Because most have heard one thing, if we were to go back and tell them something different, it would cause a lot of confusion." So, they just hope that by warning people against reading on the internet about the church they will prevent most from accessing information and being "confused" by it. The early 2x2 workers and friends understanding and revelation.... "from the shores of Galilee" is Correct. They were also correct on the Deity of Christ, Jesus is God (the Son), and the Trinity.The first worker we met told us in general terms when and where it was started. He knew some of the first workers. Should he have erased from his memory that which he knew as a fact?
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