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Post by maryhig on Mar 12, 2015 17:29:43 GMT -5
With a response like this you make it difficult for a person to have a harmonious conversation with you. Were there errors that you found to be misleading? The belief in a higher power is not the issue. The comments were regarding the fact that if you believe in a higher power and attribute great power to that entity it implies that that entity is responsible all things in the universe.It has nothing to do with my mind but a lot to do with reality. If you claim that the entity you believe in is in control of the universe and praise that entity for the flowers and fresh air you also need to acknowledge that there are bits of the creation that are not all bright and shiny. That was the issue - the subject was about the things for which the creator was being given credit. It is great to mention the rain that cleans the polluted air but shouldn't the sulfuric acid created by that same rain be mentioned as a 'gift' from the creator as well? Would you be happier to look at the situation through rose colored glasses? Exalt the beauty of the flowers but ignore the lepers? No rational the subject was about my own personnel experiences with God, which I answered based the questions that you asked me!
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Post by rational on Mar 12, 2015 17:46:58 GMT -5
No rational the subject was about my own personnel experiences with God, which I answered based the questions that you asked me! I understand that. And when you had expressed your joy and wonder regarding the beauty of all that you surveyed I wondered if you also gave credit to god for the less appealing aspects of the universe. I wonder why people thank god, for example, when a child survives a car accident but do not mention god's lack of care/concern regarding the accident itself or the fact that others were killed.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 12, 2015 18:10:20 GMT -5
No rational the subject was about my own personnel experiences with God, which I answered based the questions that you asked me! I understand that. And when you had expressed your joy and wonder regarding the beauty of all that you surveyed I wondered if you also gave credit to god for the less appealing aspects of the universe. I wonder why people thank god, for example, when a child survives a car accident but do not mention god's lack of care/concern regarding the accident itself or the fact that others were killed. How about the drunk drivers, or the people who drive like maniacs, or various other reasons that cause car crashes! A lot of the time is man doing wrong! So I'd be very grateful that my child survived, whatever caused the accident! And I would be on my face on the floor thanking God with all my heart if my child came out alive from any accident!
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Post by rational on Mar 12, 2015 18:33:47 GMT -5
How about the drunk drivers, or the people who drive like maniacs, or various other reasons that cause car crashes! A lot of the time is man doing wrong! Is it not your belief that god is in control of the universe? Causes the rain, makes the flowers bloom, etc? People thank god for rain but you don't hear thanks when the resulting mud slides kill thousands. Why would you be thanking god for saving your child but not for causing the accident? It is like you are judging the worthiness of god's acts. The question is - if god is in control of the universe and responsible for everything then why is thanks only given when the events are positive from a human point of view?
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Post by maryhig on Mar 12, 2015 18:46:02 GMT -5
How about the drunk drivers, or the people who drive like maniacs, or various other reasons that cause car crashes! A lot of the time is man doing wrong! Is it not your belief that god is in control of the universe? Causes the rain, makes the flowers bloom, etc? People thank god for rain but you don't hear thanks when the resulting mud slides kill thousands. Why would you be thanking god for saving your child but not for causing the accident? It is like you are judging the worthiness of god's acts. The question is - if god is in control of the universe and responsible for everything then why is thanks only given when the events are positive from a human point of view? I also go to God when I go through desperate times too! And I have thanked him in those times also! When my brother died I was in a desperate state, I couldn't think straight and couldn't cope! I begged God from the depths of my heart to help me, and he strengthened me! so that even though I felt pain, I could cope! And yes I thanked him, even in sorrow and desperation. He also helped me through other times in my life! So you can carry on, but nothing you say can make me turn my heart from him, because I know he's there!
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Post by xna on Mar 12, 2015 18:53:16 GMT -5
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Post by rational on Mar 12, 2015 18:53:50 GMT -5
I also go to God when I go through desperate times too! And I have thanked him in those times also! When my brother died I was in a desperate state, I couldn't think straight and couldn't cope! I begged God from the depths of my heart to help me, and he strengthened me! so that even though I felt pain, I could cope! And yes I thanked him, even in sorrow and desperation. He also helped me through other times in my life! So you can carry on, but nothing you say can make me turn my heart from him, because I know he's there! I am not asking you to change your beliefs. I am just trying to understand the thought process.
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Post by bubbles on Mar 12, 2015 19:28:10 GMT -5
With a response like this you make it difficult for a person to have a harmonious conversation with you. Were there errors that you found to be misleading? The belief in a higher power is not the issue. The comments were regarding the fact that if you believe in a higher power and attribute great power to that entity it implies that that entity is responsible all things in the universe.It has nothing to do with my mind but a lot to do with reality. If you claim that the entity you believe in is in control of the universe and praise that entity for the flowers and fresh air you also need to acknowledge that there are bits of the creation that are not all bright and shiny. That was the issue - the subject was about the things for which the creator was being given credit. It is great to mention the rain that cleans the polluted air but shouldn't the sulfuric acid created by that same rain be mentioned as a 'gift' from the creator as well? Would you be happier to look at the situation through rose colored glasses? Exalt the beauty of the flowers but ignore the lepers? I dont see the planet as governed or controlled by the almighty. He isnt the one reigning and ruling our planet. According to scripture. The fallen one is. The prince of the power of the air. Even though you dont believe in the invisble/supernatural. It all makes sense to me.
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Post by bubbles on Mar 12, 2015 19:47:12 GMT -5
With a response like this you make it difficult for a person to have a harmonious conversation with you. Were there errors that you found to be misleading? The belief in a higher power is not the issue. The comments were regarding the fact that if you believe in a higher power and attribute great power to that entity it implies that that entity is responsible all things in the universe.It has nothing to do with my mind but a lot to do with reality. If you claim that the entity you believe in is in control of the universe and praise that entity for the flowers and fresh air you also need to acknowledge that there are bits of the creation that are not all bright and shiny. That was the issue - the subject was about the things for which the creator was being given credit. It is great to mention the rain that cleans the polluted air but shouldn't the sulfuric acid created by that same rain be mentioned as a 'gift' from the creator as well? Would you be happier to look at the situation through rose colored glasses? Exalt the beauty of the flowers but ignore the lepers? Dratt..lost the post. Now I have to rethink what I wrote in that moment of feirce passion apposing your view. Where was I? The problem here is the almighty is not ruling and reigning our heaven/universe. The fallen one is. The prince of the power of the air. You attribute all negative happenings to the wrong person. To attribute everythiing relating to creation to the almighty is one thing. Every bad thing that happens? I dont think so. That said it is about reality even logic. My logic tells me that other dimensions ie: the invisible is as real as the 3rd dimension. Therefore powers/spirits of wickedness can and do cause havoc around us. Sickness. Disease. Accidents. Even planetary disturbance. If we look at the garden of Eden and how it was then certainly this is a different environment. I do admire the beauty of nature and creation. I would help a leper.
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Post by rational on Mar 12, 2015 20:05:37 GMT -5
The problem here is the almighty is not ruling and reigning our heaven/universe. The fallen one is. The prince of the power of the air. Ahhh - I see my error. I was responding under the idea that god was omnipotent, the most powerful entity in the universe, the creator of the universe. I had no idea your god had different attributes.No, I attribute everything to the entity that many people call god and their god is in control. What, exactly, are the attributes of your god? No, not now that you have explained that the fallen one is in charge and not god. You have always liked to throw in the concept of alternative dimensions. Being invisible would not be a dimension, thouh. And, as you have explained, the fallen one has the power so attributing anything bad to your god is incorrect. Only the things that are good for mankind. Got it. So do I. And I acknowledge that there are things in the universe that are not so pleasant. Being buried in a mud slide after a heavy spring rain. I guess god gets the thanks for the rain and the fallen one gets blamed for the unstable mud? I am sure you would. If you could I am sure you would cure all lepers. My question has been why didn't Jesus?
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 12, 2015 20:33:05 GMT -5
Acts 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. The money wasn't important to these people, and what was gathered went to those that had need, and it wasn't saved up. They were probably waiting for the return of Jesus or at least wanting to hear more about him from the apostles, and so they lingered and all people had all things in common. Then they were later dispersed. Greg, perhaps that is right, that they indeed were just waiting for the return of Jesus
Jesus had said that, “For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28)
It seems reasonable that they might expect Jesus back at any time and therefore saw no reason to plan for any future beyond their lifetimes. There would be no need to plan ahead even for their children. It is the only place that I know of where it states any of the followers of Jesus ever did this.
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Post by bubbles on Mar 13, 2015 5:23:45 GMT -5
The problem here is the almighty is not ruling and reigning our heaven/universe. The fallen one is. The prince of the power of the air. Ahhh - I see my error. I was responding under the idea that god was omnipotent, the most powerful entity in the universe, the creator of the universe. I had no idea your god had different attributes.No, I attribute everything to the entity that many people call god and their god is in control. What, exactly, are the attributes of your god? No, not now that you have explained that the fallen one is in charge and not god. You have always liked to throw in the concept of alternative dimensions. Being invisible would not be a dimension, thouh. And, as you have explained, the fallen one has the power so attributing anything bad to your god is incorrect. Only the things that are good for mankind. Got it. So do I. And I acknowledge that there are things in the universe that are not so pleasant. Being buried in a mud slide after a heavy spring rain. I guess god gets the thanks for the rain and the fallen one gets blamed for the unstable mud? I am sure you would. If you could I am sure you would cure all lepers. My question has been why didn't Jesus? Omnipotent power yes. The holy spirit is the power. He is everywhere. God doesnt defile his own word. He sticks with what he says. When Lucifer was cast from heaven he was told he would eat the dust of the earth until he is chained for 1000yrs. Rev 12:7-12 he is the accuser of the bretheren. Extra spatial dimensions might exist beyond the 3rd...I say they do. At least I have been consistent. I dont like attributing bad things to God because I dont see him through your eyes. To me he is full of love, compassion, mercy and grace. Full of goodness. Kingdom of light. Whereas the fallen one is full of hatred, fear, murder, discention. Nothing good is in him. Kingdom of darkness. Both these kingdoms the eye cannot see. They are at war.
Regarding the mudslide as you call it. My view is the catastrophe is caused by the kingdom of darkness. People who loose their lives at that time their life on earth is fulfilled/completed. (Time to be born time to die) Those who survive are meant to remain. Angels would have assisted and been there. Many angels. Some people might have been warned ahead of time. Jesus healed a man of leperacy. Matt 8
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Post by rational on Mar 13, 2015 7:28:08 GMT -5
Omnipotent power yes. The holy spirit is the power. He is everywhere. God doesnt defile his own word. He sticks with what he says. When Lucifer was cast from heaven he was told he would eat the dust of the earth until he is chained for 1000yrs. Rev 12:7-12 he is the accuser of the bretheren. Extra spatial dimensions might exist beyond the 3rd...I say they do. At least I have been consistent. I dont like attributing bad things to God because I dont see him through your eyes. To me he is full of love, compassion, mercy and grace. Full of goodness. Kingdom of light. Whereas the fallen one is full of hatred, fear, murder, discention. Nothing good is in him. Kingdom of darkness. Both these kingdoms the eye cannot see. They are at war.
Regarding the mudslide as you call it. My view is the catastrophe is caused by the kingdom of darkness. People who loose their lives at that time their life on earth is fulfilled/completed. (Time to be born time to die) Those who survive are meant to remain. Angels would have assisted and been there. Many angels. Some people might have been warned ahead of time. I see. Yes, but I contend that you, were you able, would have cured the disease worldwide.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 13, 2015 7:32:10 GMT -5
They were probably waiting for the return of Jesus or at least wanting to hear more about him from the apostles, and so they lingered and all people had all things in common. Then they were later dispersed. Greg, perhaps that is right, that they indeed were just waiting for the return of Jesus
Jesus had said that, “For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28)
It seems reasonable that they might expect Jesus back at any time and therefore saw no reason to plan for any future beyond their lifetimes. There would be no need to plan ahead even for their children. It is the only place that I know of where it states any of the followers of Jesus ever did this.
No that's not right, (quote: they had no reason to plan any future beyond their lifetimes or or that the would be no need to plan ahead even for their children), because in in Acts 2 which is where it says they sold all their possessions and laid them at the apostles feet to be given to all that were in need, it also says just before it:- For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. - Acts:2:39 So they were planning ahead alright, but they wanted to give their children the spirit in their hearts and they weren't worried about excessive wealth of this world. As I said before it says in the Bible it's not money, it's the love of money that is the root of all evil.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 13, 2015 7:54:57 GMT -5
Ahhh - I see my error. I was responding under the idea that god was omnipotent, the most powerful entity in the universe, the creator of the universe. I had no idea your god had different attributes.No, I attribute everything to the entity that many people call god and their god is in control. What, exactly, are the attributes of your god? No, not now that you have explained that the fallen one is in charge and not god. You have always liked to throw in the concept of alternative dimensions. Being invisible would not be a dimension, thouh. And, as you have explained, the fallen one has the power so attributing anything bad to your god is incorrect. Only the things that are good for mankind. Got it. So do I. And I acknowledge that there are things in the universe that are not so pleasant. Being buried in a mud slide after a heavy spring rain. I guess god gets the thanks for the rain and the fallen one gets blamed for the unstable mud? I am sure you would. If you could I am sure you would cure all lepers. My question has been why didn't Jesus? Omnipotent power yes. The holy spirit is the power. He is everywhere. God doesnt defile his own word. He sticks with what he says. When Lucifer was cast from heaven he was told he would eat the dust of the earth until he is chained for 1000yrs. Rev 12:7-12 he is the accuser of the bretheren. Extra spatial dimensions might exist beyond the 3rd...I say they do. At least I have been consistent. I dont like attributing bad things to God because I dont see him through your eyes. To me he is full of love, compassion, mercy and grace. Full of goodness. Kingdom of light. Whereas the fallen one is full of hatred, fear, murder, discention. Nothing good is in him. Kingdom of darkness. Both these kingdoms the eye cannot see. They are at war.
Regarding the mudslide as you call it. My view is the catastrophe is caused by the kingdom of darkness. People who loose their lives at that time their life on earth is fulfilled/completed. (Time to be born time to die) Those who survive are meant to remain. Angels would have assisted and been there. Many angels. Some people might have been warned ahead of time. Jesus healed a man of leperacy. Matt 8
Yes and Satan was able to offer Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, this wasn't just the natural kingdoms, but also the hearts of the people that follow him. In the lords daily prayer we pray 'Thy kingdom come' so if Gods kingdom can come to us, so can Satan's. And they are at war continually. God gives us a conscience, we need to listen to it! Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. So if we are following God then we have the kingdom of God within us and we have entered in. So we have a choice, do we let God or Satan sit on the throne in our hearts! Good or evil. Jesus and his spirits come to bring the good, Satan and his bring evil and corruption. Josh 24 Choose you this day, whom you serve!
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Post by bubbles on Mar 13, 2015 16:10:44 GMT -5
Omnipotent power yes. The holy spirit is the power. He is everywhere. God doesnt defile his own word. He sticks with what he says. When Lucifer was cast from heaven he was told he would eat the dust of the earth until he is chained for 1000yrs. Rev 12:7-12 he is the accuser of the bretheren. Extra spatial dimensions might exist beyond the 3rd...I say they do. At least I have been consistent. I dont like attributing bad things to God because I dont see him through your eyes. To me he is full of love, compassion, mercy and grace. Full of goodness. Kingdom of light. Whereas the fallen one is full of hatred, fear, murder, discention. Nothing good is in him. Kingdom of darkness. Both these kingdoms the eye cannot see. They are at war.
Regarding the mudslide as you call it. My view is the catastrophe is caused by the kingdom of darkness. People who loose their lives at that time their life on earth is fulfilled/completed. (Time to be born time to die) Those who survive are meant to remain. Angels would have assisted and been there. Many angels. Some people might have been warned ahead of time. I see. Yes, but I contend that you, were you able, would have cured the disease worldwide. If I was able. All humanity would be healthy in a healthy environment. Im sure you would be the same.
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Post by rational on Mar 13, 2015 21:14:27 GMT -5
I see. Yes, but I contend that you, were you able, would have cured the disease worldwide. If I was able. All humanity would be healthy in a healthy environment. Im sure you would be the same. I would have guessed as much. Why do you think Jesus decided to cure only the single leper instead of curing leprosy and ending the misery for thousands?
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Post by bubbles on Mar 14, 2015 3:07:26 GMT -5
If I was able. All humanity would be healthy in a healthy environment. Im sure you would be the same. I would have guessed as much. Why do you think Jesus decided to cure only the single leper instead of curing leprosy and ending the misery for thousands? I dont know. My guess would be he was demonstrating the power of the kingdom. He only ever did what he saw the father doing.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 14, 2015 4:35:13 GMT -5
If I was able. All humanity would be healthy in a healthy environment. Im sure you would be the same. I would have guessed as much. Why do you think Jesus decided to cure only the single leper instead of curing leprosy and ending the misery for thousands? I know why, because the leper turned to him and had faith. God heals those who come to him though Jesus and believe. And it may not always be physical healing, but emotional healing to give them strength to bare the physical pain.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2015 6:42:44 GMT -5
Quote - "Jesus had said that, “For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28)
It seems reasonable that they might expect Jesus back at any time and therefore saw no reason to plan for any future beyond their lifetimes. There would be no need to plan ahead even for their children. It is the only place that I know of where it states any of the followers of Jesus ever did this."
Dmmichgood, this is a very tired and poorly thought out argument, often used by people advocating various religious positions. Read the next chapter of Matthew and you will see what Jesus meant by this saying. Jesus made it clear, quite clear, that his second coming would not be for a very long time. He spelled out the various things which "must first come to pass." Paul also covered this point.
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Post by rational on Mar 14, 2015 7:55:01 GMT -5
I would have guessed as much. Why do you think Jesus decided to cure only the single leper instead of curing leprosy and ending the misery for thousands? I dont know. My guess would be he was demonstrating the power of the kingdom. He only ever did what he saw the father doing. I guess that is why fathers need to be sure they set good examples.
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Post by rational on Mar 14, 2015 7:56:59 GMT -5
I would have guessed as much. Why do you think Jesus decided to cure only the single leper instead of curing leprosy and ending the misery for thousands? I know why, because the leper turned to him and had faith. God heals those who come to him though Jesus and believe. And it may not always be physical healing, but emotional healing to give them strength to bare the physical pain. That puts the responsibility on the person. I like that idea - finally people accepting responsible for their actions.
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