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Post by rational on Mar 11, 2015 9:09:52 GMT -5
Hi rational, The money will never run dry if the congregation have the right hearts, and I don't know about you, but I will give when I see the need if I have the money, and seeing homeless people in need would make me give and I'm sure most people with soft heart would! Then you should remove the church from the equation and have people support the needy directly. Is the amount of money the issue? What is the limit you think would be more than a purse but less than a shed load? Can you point to a passage when any of the funds that Jesus and the group controlled was used to help the poor? This sounds like the island where everyone earned a living by doing each others laundry! There is a reason why communes did not work out in the 60s. Where is the Oneida Community today? Fruitlands, utopian commune, lasted well less than a year.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 11, 2015 9:19:19 GMT -5
Hi rational, The money will never run dry if the congregation have the right hearts, and I don't know about you, but I will give when I see the need if I have the money, and seeing homeless people in need would make me give and I'm sure most people with soft heart would! Then you should remove the church from the equation and have people support the needy directly. Is the amount of money the issue? What is the limit you think would be more than a purse but less than a shed load? Can you point to a passage when any of the funds that Jesus and the group controlled was used to help the poor? This sounds like the island where everyone earned a living by doing each others laundry! There is a reason why communes did not work out in the 60s. Where is the Oneida Community today? Fruitlands, utopian commune, lasted well less than a year. Yes rational, I'm all for giving money direct to the poor! And heres that passage for you! John 13:29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor! Hope that clears that up!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2015 10:26:42 GMT -5
"It's what comes first in your heart, is it God or the love of the world! If it's God money won't have importance to you." To be precise if it is God, money still has importance, very little can be done without money in any country; however we have to render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and render unto God the things that pertain to God. But I agree that the love of money can be the root of evil, and very often it is the love of the world and a crave for a worldly life and for worldly things in life that can be the focus and the driving force for the acquisition money, and what it can buy.The love of God and respect for God can be the constraining and balancing force in the lives we live as Christians; that is my opinion anyway.
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Post by snow on Mar 11, 2015 11:04:36 GMT -5
She doesn't bash Christians. Christians bash Christians. And, from the comments people make about atheists, it's pretty clear they don't have a clue what an atheist is. They get called 'nothings' and a whole lot of worse things than any atheist here has said about a Christian. Listen to Walker and Lee for examples, and you will know no atheist here has said anything quite as nasty about Christians as they've said about atheists. But that's okay of course, because in their eyes, atheists are 'nothings'. Snow, dmmg does "bash" Christians - as you are sensitive about atheists being criticised for "nothingness" (I haven't looked up the posts you are referring to) Christians on this board are also sensitive when Dmmg mocks our "God of the gaps" as she puts it. I think most of us know what an atheist is - it's not hard to understand that atheism is defined as a lack of belief in God or gods - whatever variety. As for 2x2 bashing, to quote Shakespeare "The lady (dmmg) doth protest too much, methinks". It was only a few days ago, before she declared that she was tired of folk (read Christians) who "bashed" the 2x2's that she herself was critical of workers who had lied, either overtly or covertly by inference, about the beginnings of the fellowship. That wouldn't be 2x2 bashing would it? How do you explain the things you don't understand? Is she wrong when she points out that people of religion claim God is the reason when they don't have another explanation? It seems more accurate to say dmg says things that challenge the thoughts of people of religion and they don't like that. Pointing out what happens when something can't be explained does not constitute 'bashing' imo. It is an accurate assessment of what happens time and time again. Why does that particular statement offend you? Do you disagree with the comment? Do you not, as a person of religion, say God is the reason for everything we do not understand? Is the truth offensive or does it just challenge your faith? Is that a bad thing? Should you not question what you believe? I know I do constantly. I believe that is a healthy way to live. We all know that things have changed in our beliefs since the time of the Hebrews, or the time of Christ, or the times of the early church beliefs. Everything would be the same still, we'd be selling our daughters, stoning our unruly kids and anyone who committed adultery if we never questioned and changed our thinking on things. There is no way to prove the existence of a God or the non existence of a God. I am agnostic for that very reason. I like things that have data backing them up. I am willing to research and let things go when things are shown to be inaccurate. What I do not understand is how come people fight over the existence of a being that means something different to every person and no one can prove even exists? So is saying that people put God into the gaps in human understanding such an offensive thing to say or believe? It's the truth, it's what is done. Some more than others. I have relatives that believe the earth is 6000 years old, that God poofed everything into existence and totally refuse to read a science book that would teach them differently. Why? Because strong, blind faith is more important than learning about the world they live in. Is that reasonable?
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Post by snow on Mar 11, 2015 11:26:55 GMT -5
The more money you make the more people you can assist, the less people need to assist you. Money is not the root of all evil. It is what we decide about money that can be either evil or good. There is nothing wrong with being rich.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 11, 2015 11:58:24 GMT -5
The more money you make the more people you can assist, the less people need to assist you. Money is not the root of all evil. It is what we decide about money that can be either evil or good. There is nothing wrong with being rich. No money isn't the root of all evil is the love of it that is
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 11, 2015 13:51:38 GMT -5
She doesn't bash Christians. Christians bash Christians. And, from the comments people make about atheists, it's pretty clear they don't have a clue what an atheist is. They get called 'nothings' and a whole lot of worse things than any atheist here has said about a Christian. Listen to Walker and Lee for examples, and you will know no atheist here has said anything quite as nasty about Christians as they've said about atheists. But that's okay of course, because in their eyes, atheists are 'nothings'. Snow, dmmg does "bash" Christians - It was only a few days ago, before she declared that she was tired of folk (read Christians) who "bashed" the 2x2's that she herself was critical of workers who had lied, either overtly or covertly by inference, about the beginnings of the fellowship. I said I was tired of people here on the TMB board who were once in the 2x2's and are now continually bashing the 2x2's.
Many ex 2x2s who have gone to other churches keep bashing the doctrine of the 2x2's.
Their continuous proclaiming that the church they are in now as being more doctrinally sound becomes tiresome after awhile.
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Post by rational on Mar 11, 2015 17:43:47 GMT -5
Yes rational, I'm all for giving money direct to the poor! OK. Read it. "...some of them thought..." There is nothing to imply that Jesus said any of the two lines that the others were speculating. You have to look at the context: Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. In fact it does state exactly what Jesus said. It was not about getting supplies or giving to the poor. As it says, " ...no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him." As I said - they were speculating. So it does not clear anything up. Want to give it another try? I thought you'd go with Matthew 19:21. But that still does not show Jesus giving to the poor and/or needy. He is just telling others to do that.
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Post by Greg on Mar 11, 2015 17:53:20 GMT -5
Acts 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. The money wasn't important to these people, and what was gathered went to those that had need, and it wasn't saved up. They were probably waiting for the return of Jesus or at least wanting to hear more about him from the apostles, and so they lingered and all people had all things in common. Then they were later dispersed.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 11, 2015 18:02:36 GMT -5
Yes rational, I'm all for giving money direct to the poor! OK. Read it. "...some of them thought..." There is nothing to imply that Jesus said any of the two lines that the others were speculating. You have to look at the context: Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. In fact it does state exactly what Jesus said. It was not about getting supplies or giving to the poor. As it says, " ...no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him." As I said - they were speculating. So it does not clear anything up. Want to give it another try? I thought you'd go with Matthew 19:21. But that still does not show Jesus giving to the poor and/or needy. He is just telling others to do that. Well rational, if they thought that's what Jesus meant, then Jesus must have done it often! Because when your very close to someone you have an idea what they will do in certain situations. So for them to think that, he must have done it a few times before. There is also Matt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. I actually read this earlier, only I read it in Luke 18:22 By the way when he said give to the poor, he then said and come and follow me. If your telling someone to follow you, then you must be doing it yourself.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 11, 2015 18:24:40 GMT -5
Acts 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. The money wasn't important to these people, and what was gathered went to those that had need, and it wasn't saved up. They were probably waiting for the return of Jesus or at least wanting to hear more about him from the apostles, and so they lingered and all people had all things in common. Then they were later dispersed. Hi Greg! Jesus was resurrected in the hearts of the apostles that's how they had the power. And that's what the people saw, that Christ was in their hearts. Once Christ is in our hearts we become stronger and the worldly things start to become less important to us. I know we need money to get by, but your whole heart changes and you need and want the worldly things less and less but need and want God more and more. This is how it is for me anyway, I know its a slow process and I sin always but with God's help I can become stronger and will hopefully (with Jesus guiding me) overcome my sins. But knowing me, this will probably take a lifetime!
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Post by bubbles on Mar 11, 2015 18:48:03 GMT -5
Yes rational, I'm all for giving money direct to the poor! OK. Read it. "...some of them thought..." There is nothing to imply that Jesus said any of the two lines that the others were speculating. You have to look at the context: Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. In fact it does state exactly what Jesus said. It was not about getting supplies or giving to the poor. As it says, " ...no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him." As I said - they were speculating. So it does not clear anything up. Want to give it another try? I thought you'd go with Matthew 19:21. But that still does not show Jesus giving to the poor and/or needy. He is just telling others to do that. He was giving to the poor when he fed the 5000. Loaves and fishes.
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Post by rational on Mar 11, 2015 19:05:45 GMT -5
Well rational, if they thought that's what Jesus meant, then Jesus must have done it often! I give you high marks for being creative but so far there is no record of Jesus giving to the poor. Now you are speculating and stating something that is not supported by the available text. Yes, he told others to sell what they had and give to the poor but there is no record of Jesus giving to the poor. No, he told the person what he had to do before he was to go and follow Jesus. Again, the original question was whether it was ever recorded that Jesus gave to the poor. If I remember correctly Jesus chastised those who said the expensive ointment used on him could have been sold and the money given to the poor. The poor did not seem to be a high priority.
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Post by Greg on Mar 11, 2015 20:05:26 GMT -5
They were probably waiting for the return of Jesus or at least wanting to hear more about him from the apostles, and so they lingered and all people had all things in common. Then they were later dispersed. Hi Greg! Jesus was resurrected in the hearts of the apostles that's how they had the power. And that's what the people saw, that Christ was in their hearts. Once Christ is in our hearts we become stronger and the worldly things start to become less important to us. I know we need money to get by, but your whole heart changes and you need and want the worldly things less and less but need and want God more and more. This is how it is for me anyway, I know its a slow process and I sin always but with God's help I can become stronger and will hopefully (with Jesus guiding me) overcome my sins. But knowing me, this will probably take a lifetime! Hi Maryhig. I am not questioning your personal faith and spiritual growth. Just gave an explanation of what was probably happening.
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Post by rational on Mar 11, 2015 21:22:43 GMT -5
I know we need money to get by, but your whole heart changes and you need and want the worldly things less and less but need and want God more and more. What does this mean? What are the worldly things you no longer want? Food? Shelter? Enjoyment? You want god more - what would be the situation if you got all the god you want?
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Post by findingtruth on Mar 11, 2015 21:26:27 GMT -5
Snow, dmmg does "bash" Christians - It was only a few days ago, before she declared that she was tired of folk (read Christians) who "bashed" the 2x2's that she herself was critical of workers who had lied, either overtly or covertly by inference, about the beginnings of the fellowship. I said I was tired of people here on the TMB board who were once in the 2x2's and are now continually bashing the 2x2's.
Many ex 2x2s who have gone to other churches keep bashing the doctrine of the 2x2's.
Their continuous proclaiming that the church they are in now as being more doctrinally sound becomes tiresome after awhile.
It's a rather common trait to put someone else down in order to feel better about our own position on things. We can ALL be guilty of this. It was an awkward experience (for me personally) to exit a system that had influenced my thinking for 35 years! I seemed to feel better for a while after leaving criticizing everything that irritated me about the things I felt were what I considered to be pure heresy. Fact is, I needed no reason to justify my choice to leave. It wasn't right for me. I also had plenty of well-meaning individuals who made desperate attempts to convince me that "forsaking the assembly" of myself with other "Christian" groups would mean sure spiritual death. I attended at least 6 various denominational churches over the next 6 months before realizing I was only fooling myself into believing these groups could actually create a pure heart in anyone. I don't really feel the need anymore to criticize like I once did. I freely admit that I DO believe in a higher power than us but will also state clearly that I feel this "Christian" god that people have promoted is not even remotely close to the source of all that is! This is MY personal point of view!! So I state without hesitation that I am not an atheist. I do believe that there are possibly some atheists that may not be fully convinced that there is NOT a higher power but they are honest enough to state that they personally have not seen evidence of this power. (I have a few friends like this) Each of us likely expect different forms of evidence. Maybe they border agnosticism. Not sure. I was at my parents' house today getting ready to leave. An elderly many across the street was sitting in his wheelchair enjoying the beautiful weather but his head was hung down suggesting that he may have been sleeping. A young woman was walking down the street pushing a stroller with 2 small children. She walked up the drive of the elderly man's home to make sure he was OK. She expressed genuine care and concern. When she realized he had been dozing she seemed relieved and chatted with him for a short spell - very positive spirit with a voice that expressed a love for her neighbor. I appreciate observing these gestures of love and care - letting others know they are important and cared for .
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 11, 2015 22:34:51 GMT -5
I said I was tired of people here on the TMB board who were once in the 2x2's and are now continually bashing the 2x2's.
Many ex 2x2s who have gone to other churches keep bashing the doctrine of the 2x2's.
Their continuous proclaiming that the church they are in now as being more doctrinally sound becomes tiresome after awhile.
It's a rather common trait to put someone else down in order to feel better about our own position on things. We can ALL be guilty of this. It was an awkward experience (for me personally) to exit a system that had influenced my thinking for 35 years! I seemed to feel better for a while after leaving criticizing everything that irritated me about the things I felt were what I considered to be pure heresy. Fact is, I needed no reason to justify my choice to leave. It wasn't right for me. I also had plenty of well-meaning individuals who made desperate attempts to convince me that "forsaking the assembly" of myself with other "Christian" groups would mean sure spiritual death. I attended at least 6 various denominational churches over the next 6 months before realizing I was only fooling myself into believing these groups could actually create a pure heart in anyone. I don't really feel the need anymore to criticize like I once did. I freely admit that I DO believe in a higher power than us but will also state clearly that I feel this "Christian" god that people have promoted is not even remotely close to the source of all that is! This is MY personal point of view!! So I state without hesitation that I am not an atheist. I do believe that there are possibly some atheists that may not be fully convinced that there is NOT a higher power but they are honest enough to state that they personally have not seen evidence of this power. (I have a few friends like this) Each of us likely expect different forms of evidence. Maybe they border agnosticism. Not sure. I was at my parents' house today getting ready to leave. An elderly many across the street was sitting in his wheelchair enjoying the beautiful weather but his head was hung down suggesting that he may have been sleeping. A young woman was walking down the street pushing a stroller with 2 small children. She walked up the drive of the elderly man's home to make sure he was OK. She expressed genuine care and concern. When she realized he had been dozing she seemed relieved and chatted with him for a short spell - very positive spirit with a voice that expressed a love for her neighbor. I appreciate observing these gestures of love and care - letting others know they are important and cared for . Thank you for your story, findingtruth.
I can understand those feelings.
After all those years of investment of a person's life how could it be otherwise?
I can understand that quite well. I went though a lot of clearing out of the baggage that I had had since I was born! I sometimes likened it to the stages of grief a person goes through with loss of a loved one. Unlike a lot of religions, the 2x2's really took up nearly all of your time. It is your whole life!
I was sort of in limbo for a long time.
So, I certainly understand those feelings. I can understand their being upset & angry for many years according to their own experiences, -some of which sound horrific!
What gets to me are those who keep on & on bashing the of the 2x2's in order to try to prove that the church they go to is so much better!
Your are right that, " letting others know they are important and cared for" is what matters in all things, small individual, as well as in large global..
People do not have to believe in any religion or god to do that.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 12, 2015 0:25:15 GMT -5
Hi Greg! Jesus was resurrected in the hearts of the apostles that's how they had the power. And that's what the people saw, that Christ was in their hearts. Once Christ is in our hearts we become stronger and the worldly things start to become less important to us. I know we need money to get by, but your whole heart changes and you need and want the worldly things less and less but need and want God more and more. This is how it is for me anyway, I know its a slow process and I sin always but with God's help I can become stronger and will hopefully (with Jesus guiding me) overcome my sins. But knowing me, this will probably take a lifetime! Hi Maryhig. I am not questioning your personal faith and spiritual growth. Just gave an explanation of what was probably happening. Hi Greg, Sorry yes I know you were. I thought it was good what you wrote, I was just carrying on the conversation saying that they didn't have to wait long to see Jesus coming as he was in the hearts of the apostles. That's why they were so strong. Sometimes in typing answers, I think we come across a lot more stern than we really are!
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Post by maryhig on Mar 12, 2015 1:37:30 GMT -5
I know we need money to get by, but your whole heart changes and you need and want the worldly things less and less but need and want God more and more. What does this mean? What are the worldly things you no longer want? Food? Shelter? Enjoyment? You want god more - what would be the situation if you got all the god you want? I no longer feel the need to be over extravagant, to be hard or have a strong dislike for people. To backbite, and be selfish or to go and get drunk, to be really vain and have the love and acceptance of the world. These are some of the things that I no longer need but that are a part of my nature, that God has shown me is wrong in me. There are many more that I still have and do and each day I fall in some way and ask God to help me fight it. Some days some of those things come back strong like if I get offended, in jumps hardness. But I know it can't stay because it brings it's friend bitterness then comes hatred and many more. The one that had left has come back with with many of its friends, walking hand in hand through my heart! So it had to be nipped in the bud. And I couldn't do this without God showing me what is wrong within me. Because without him I would think I was ok! I'm not saying anything about others this is what I'm like! He's replaced this with his love, peace, strength, more care for others instead of just me and mine, more sympathy and empathy than I would have had. Contentment, joy, appreciation of all I have, and grateful for every day that I have. Grateful for the family he's blessed me with. To look at the sun and moon and feel the air, flowers blossoming and see all he had created and realise that not only has he created these things but everyday here purifies them to keep us alive! He freshens the air even though man pollutes it, gives fruit to the trees. Freshens everything that we pollute and gives us it fresh again. Gives us the sun and the moon daily no matter what we do wrong, pours out the rain to water the earth and give us drink. I see God in all of them! Like the wind is a picture of the spirit of God, it's given freely and keeps us alive yet we don't see it but if we stop and take notice, we feel it! Sometimes it's stronger than others. If we stand in a mountain it is stronger again, (this is like having wisdom and understanding and feeling the spirit stronger). I love him and I'm grateful for all that he has done for me and I am blessed knowing he's there! That rational it's what Gods done for me!
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Post by Greg on Mar 12, 2015 5:31:29 GMT -5
Hi Maryhig. I am not questioning your personal faith and spiritual growth. Just gave an explanation of what was probably happening. Hi Greg, Sorry yes I know you were. I thought it was good what you wrote, I was just carrying on the conversation saying that they didn't have to wait long to see Jesus coming as he was in the hearts of the apostles. That's why they were so strong. Sometimes in typing answers, I think we come across a lot more stern than we really are! I did not think you were being stern. "Tone" is difficult to discern sometime, though. I do think we might read other people's posts with the same attitude we have when we write.
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Post by matisse on Mar 12, 2015 9:35:54 GMT -5
I said I was tired of people here on the TMB board who were once in the 2x2's and are now continually bashing the 2x2's.
Many ex 2x2s who have gone to other churches keep bashing the doctrine of the 2x2's.
Their continuous proclaiming that the church they are in now as being more doctrinally sound becomes tiresome after awhile.
And it's a viewpoint you are welcome to. If you hold it, don't "bash", as you put it, the two by two's. In my time here I haven't read many posts at all saying that the Baptist church or the Presbyterian Church or any church is more doctrinally sound than the two by twos. I read a lot of posts from many Christians, including my own posts, where two by two doctrine does not stand up against key Christian teaching. Given you are not a Christian, I don't know whether you recognise the difference but we don't hold our churches up as perfect, by a long shot. We uphold the Bible and it's teaching. Christians will continue to do that and because 2x2 doctrine in some key Christian concepts is miles apart from the Bible, I am sure that the problems with 2x2 doctrine will continue to be highlighted. Not all Christians believe in "sola scriptura" (which, as far as I can tell, is not itself biblical). Who are the "sola scripturists" to declare that they are the ones who have it "right"?
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Post by rational on Mar 12, 2015 10:04:02 GMT -5
What does this mean? What are the worldly things you no longer want? Food? Shelter? Enjoyment? You want god more - what would be the situation if you got all the god you want? I no longer feel the need to be over extravagant, to be hard or have a strong dislike for people. To backbite, and be selfish or to go and get drunk, to be really vain and have the love and acceptance of the world. These are some of the things that I no longer need but that are a part of my nature, that God has shown me is wrong in me. There are many more that I still have and do and each day I fall in some way and ask God to help me fight it. Some days some of those things come back strong like if I get offended, in jumps hardness. But I know it can't stay because it brings it's friend bitterness then comes hatred and many more. The one that had left has come back with with many of its friends, walking hand in hand through my heart! So it had to be nipped in the bud. And I couldn't do this without God showing me what is wrong within me. Because without him I would think I was ok! I'm not saying anything about others this is what I'm like! He's replaced this with his love, peace, strength, more care for others instead of just me and mine, more sympathy and empathy than I would have had. Contentment, joy, appreciation of all I have, and grateful for every day that I have. Grateful for the family he's blessed me with. To look at the sun and moon and feel the air, flowers blossoming and see all he had created and realise that not only has he created these things but everyday here purifies them to keep us alive! He freshens the air even though man pollutes it, gives fruit to the trees. Freshens everything that we pollute and gives us it fresh again. Gives us the sun and the moon daily no matter what we do wrong, pours out the rain to water the earth and give us drink. I see God in all of them! Like the wind is a picture of the spirit of God, it's given freely and keeps us alive yet we don't see it but if we stop and take notice, we feel it! Sometimes it's stronger than others. If we stand in a mountain it is stronger again, (this is like having wisdom and understanding and feeling the spirit stronger). I love him and I'm grateful for all that he has done for me and I am blessed knowing he's there! That rational it's what Gods done for me! This presents some confusing and contradictory ideas/beliefs. In the 2 nd paragraph you credit god with the creation of the universe and the things in it yet in the 1 st paragraph the creation of concern, you, seems to have been a flawed creation that need to be corrected continuously. Is it your belief that god's creation, you, was intentionally created with flaws as a test? You list all of the wonders of the things god has created - flowers, sun, moon, air, fruit, etc. But I see no mention of the people with Hansen's disease or your giving thanks for the syphilis bacteria or the malaria protozoan. It is almost as if you are willing to give your god credit for all of the things that you like but turn from acknowledging the less appealing aspects of life. Do you think you would have seen the beauty in the sea and the waves had you had first hand experience of the Indian Ocean Tsunami in 2004? Would you marvel at the life cycle of the guinea worm if one was exiting from your foot/ankle? You look at the world through rose colored glasses and ignore the fact that millions suffer and die from 'gifts' that had to come from the same being that you praise for bringing the rain. Of course, those same rains also bring mudslides and have killed thousands of people. You mentioned pollution and the creator cleaning up what man has done. Yet a single volcano off the coast of Iceland (Holuhraun) puts an average of about to 20,000 tons of sulfur dioxide (SO 2) per day into the atmosphere. What the rain does is turn it into sulfuric acid and cause many problems. Some days the output reached 60,000 tons. For comparison, all of Europe produces about 14,000 tons of sulfur dioxide a day from all man made sources. So when you say man pollutes you need to consider that man is a very minor player when compared to the natural sources. Of course this does not take into account the tons of carbon dioxide that is being pumped into the air or the dust particles that act as billions of tiny reflectors directing the sun’s light away from earth. Cold winters and hazy summers. Given that there are over 1,000 active volcanoes on the surface of the earth plus more deep under the seas, is the creator is really interested in freshening the air a better start would be to turn off the volcanoes! If god is running the universe s/he needs to take credit for the good and the bad.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 12, 2015 10:22:20 GMT -5
I no longer feel the need to be over extravagant, to be hard or have a strong dislike for people. To backbite, and be selfish or to go and get drunk, to be really vain and have the love and acceptance of the world. These are some of the things that I no longer need but that are a part of my nature, that God has shown me is wrong in me. There are many more that I still have and do and each day I fall in some way and ask God to help me fight it. Some days some of those things come back strong like if I get offended, in jumps hardness. But I know it can't stay because it brings it's friend bitterness then comes hatred and many more. The one that had left has come back with with many of its friends, walking hand in hand through my heart! So it had to be nipped in the bud. And I couldn't do this without God showing me what is wrong within me. Because without him I would think I was ok! I'm not saying anything about others this is what I'm like! He's replaced this with his love, peace, strength, more care for others instead of just me and mine, more sympathy and empathy than I would have had. Contentment, joy, appreciation of all I have, and grateful for every day that I have. Grateful for the family he's blessed me with. To look at the sun and moon and feel the air, flowers blossoming and see all he had created and realise that not only has he created these things but everyday here purifies them to keep us alive! He freshens the air even though man pollutes it, gives fruit to the trees. Freshens everything that we pollute and gives us it fresh again. Gives us the sun and the moon daily no matter what we do wrong, pours out the rain to water the earth and give us drink. I see God in all of them! Like the wind is a picture of the spirit of God, it's given freely and keeps us alive yet we don't see it but if we stop and take notice, we feel it! Sometimes it's stronger than others. If we stand in a mountain it is stronger again, (this is like having wisdom and understanding and feeling the spirit stronger). I love him and I'm grateful for all that he has done for me and I am blessed knowing he's there! That rational it's what Gods done for me! This presents some confusing and contradictory ideas/beliefs. In the 2 nd paragraph you credit god with the creation of the universe and the things in it yet in the 1 st paragraph the creation of concern, you, seems to have been a flawed creation that need to be corrected continuously. Is it your belief that god's creation, you, was intentionally created with flaws as a test? You list all of the wonders of the things god has created - flowers, sun, moon, air, fruit, etc. But I see no mention of the people with Hansen's disease or your giving thanks for the syphilis bacteria or the malaria protozoan. It is almost as if you are willing to give your god credit for all of the things that you like but turn from acknowledging the less appealing aspects of life. Do you think you would have seen the beauty in the sea and the waves had you had first hand experience of the Indian Ocean Tsunami in 2004? Would you marvel at the life cycle of the guinea worm if one was exiting from your foot/ankle? You look at the world through rose colored glasses and ignore the fact that millions suffer and die from 'gifts' that had to come from the same being that you praise for bringing the rain. Of course, those same rains also bring mudslides and have killed thousands of people. You mentioned pollution and the creator cleaning up what man has done. Yet a single volcano off the coast of Iceland (Holuhraun) puts an average of about to 20,000 tons of sulfur dioxide (SO 2) per day into the atmosphere. What the rain does is turn it into sulfuric acid and cause many problems. Some days the output reached 60,000 tons. For comparison, all of Europe produces about 14,000 tons of sulfur dioxide a day from all man made sources. So when you say man pollutes you need to consider that man is a very minor player when compared to the natural sources. Of course this does not take into account the tons of carbon dioxide that is being pumped into the air or the dust particles that act as billions of tiny reflectors directing the sun’s light away from earth. Cold winters and hazy summers. Given that there are over 1,000 active volcanoes on the surface of the earth plus more deep under the seas, is the creator is really interested in freshening the air a better start would be to turn off the volcanoes! If god is running the universe s/he needs to take credit for the good and the bad. Rational, I've told you what he's done for me! you asked me I've told you! I don't know the answers to everything, I'm not God. And my heart breaks when I see suffering in the world! But all as I can do is help where I can. Also the man made problems of the world are because we let wickedness control our hearts instead of good. We get greedy and selfish, where billions aren't enough for some people and companies, they just want more and more! And we spend billions on nuclear bombs and all this could feed many hungry people. As I said i don't know everything. I'm not God!
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Post by SharonArnold on Mar 12, 2015 10:24:50 GMT -5
I did not think you were being stern. "Tone" is difficult to discern sometime, though. I do think we might read other people's posts with the same attitude we have when we write. I think this is very true.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 12, 2015 10:28:19 GMT -5
I said I was tired of people here on the TMB board who were once in the 2x2's and are now continually bashing the 2x2's.
Many ex 2x2s who have gone to other churches keep bashing the doctrine of the 2x2's.
Their continuous proclaiming that the church they are in now as being more doctrinally sound becomes tiresome after awhile.
And it's a viewpoint you are welcome to. If you hold it, don't "bash", as you put it, the two by two's. In my time here I haven't read many posts at all saying that the Baptist church or the Presbyterian Church or any church is more doctrinally sound than the two by twos. I read a lot of posts from many Christians, including my own posts, where two by two doctrine does not stand up against key Christian teaching. Given you are not a Christian, I don't know whether you recognise the difference but we don't hold our churches up as perfect, by a long shot. We uphold the Bible and it's teaching. Christians will continue to do that and because 2x2 doctrine in some key Christian concepts is miles apart from the Bible, I am sure that the problems with 2x2 doctrine will continue to be highlighted. Roscoe, i'm just wondering what the 2x2s believe in that's different to you? I'm just curious about the difference in the 2 beliefs and how they are different to mine? That's if you don't mind telling me? I'm asking you because you've been in both. Thank you
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Post by rational on Mar 12, 2015 10:43:04 GMT -5
Rational, I've told you what he's done for me! you asked me I've told you! And, as in the past, I thank you. I know you are not god. I only commented because you were presenting a very unbalanced picture. It would be like praising a despot for building a palace while overlooking the fact that it was built with slave labor.
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Post by bubbles on Mar 12, 2015 16:28:32 GMT -5
I no longer feel the need to be over extravagant, to be hard or have a strong dislike for people. To backbite, and be selfish or to go and get drunk, to be really vain and have the love and acceptance of the world. These are some of the things that I no longer need but that are a part of my nature, that God has shown me is wrong in me. There are many more that I still have and do and each day I fall in some way and ask God to help me fight it. Some days some of those things come back strong like if I get offended, in jumps hardness. But I know it can't stay because it brings it's friend bitterness then comes hatred and many more. The one that had left has come back with with many of its friends, walking hand in hand through my heart! So it had to be nipped in the bud. And I couldn't do this without God showing me what is wrong within me. Because without him I would think I was ok! I'm not saying anything about others this is what I'm like! He's replaced this with his love, peace, strength, more care for others instead of just me and mine, more sympathy and empathy than I would have had. Contentment, joy, appreciation of all I have, and grateful for every day that I have. Grateful for the family he's blessed me with. To look at the sun and moon and feel the air, flowers blossoming and see all he had created and realise that not only has he created these things but everyday here purifies them to keep us alive! He freshens the air even though man pollutes it, gives fruit to the trees. Freshens everything that we pollute and gives us it fresh again. Gives us the sun and the moon daily no matter what we do wrong, pours out the rain to water the earth and give us drink. I see God in all of them! Like the wind is a picture of the spirit of God, it's given freely and keeps us alive yet we don't see it but if we stop and take notice, we feel it! Sometimes it's stronger than others. If we stand in a mountain it is stronger again, (this is like having wisdom and understanding and feeling the spirit stronger). I love him and I'm grateful for all that he has done for me and I am blessed knowing he's there! That rational it's what Gods done for me! This presents some confusing and contradictory ideas/beliefs. In the 2 nd paragraph you credit god with the creation of the universe and the things in it yet in the 1 st paragraph the creation of concern, you, seems to have been a flawed creation that need to be corrected continuously. Is it your belief that god's creation, you, was intentionally created with flaws as a test? You list all of the wonders of the things god has created - flowers, sun, moon, air, fruit, etc. But I see no mention of the people with Hansen's disease or your giving thanks for the syphilis bacteria or the malaria protozoan. It is almost as if you are willing to give your god credit for all of the things that you like but turn from acknowledging the less appealing aspects of life. Do you think you would have seen the beauty in the sea and the waves had you had first hand experience of the Indian Ocean Tsunami in 2004? Would you marvel at the life cycle of the guinea worm if one was exiting from your foot/ankle? You look at the world through rose colored glasses and ignore the fact that millions suffer and die from 'gifts' that had to come from the same being that you praise for bringing the rain. Of course, those same rains also bring mudslides and have killed thousands of people. You mentioned pollution and the creator cleaning up what man has done. Yet a single volcano off the coast of Iceland (Holuhraun) puts an average of about to 20,000 tons of sulfur dioxide (SO 2) per day into the atmosphere. What the rain does is turn it into sulfuric acid and cause many problems. Some days the output reached 60,000 tons. For comparison, all of Europe produces about 14,000 tons of sulfur dioxide a day from all man made sources. So when you say man pollutes you need to consider that man is a very minor player when compared to the natural sources. Of course this does not take into account the tons of carbon dioxide that is being pumped into the air or the dust particles that act as billions of tiny reflectors directing the sun’s light away from earth. Cold winters and hazy summers. Given that there are over 1,000 active volcanoes on the surface of the earth plus more deep under the seas, is the creator is really interested in freshening the air a better start would be to turn off the volcanoes! If god is running the universe s/he needs to take credit for the good and the bad. With a response like this you make it difficult for a person to have a harmonious conversation with you. You come across as angry that anyone could have the fflippin audacity to believe in a higher power. Pointing out everything your mind can grasp to prove your point that we are just so wrong and you with your clever mind are so right. Anyone ever tell you you dontvstick to the subject you cause diversion to prove your point. Just sayin. While you are correct on the result and effects of some things.
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Post by rational on Mar 12, 2015 17:25:00 GMT -5
With a response like this you make it difficult for a person to have a harmonious conversation with you. Were there errors that you found to be misleading? The belief in a higher power is not the issue. The comments were regarding the fact that if you believe in a higher power and attribute great power to that entity it implies that that entity is responsible all things in the universe.It has nothing to do with my mind but a lot to do with reality. If you claim that the entity you believe in is in control of the universe and praise that entity for the flowers and fresh air you also need to acknowledge that there are bits of the creation that are not all bright and shiny. That was the issue - the subject was about the things for which the creator was being given credit. It is great to mention the rain that cleans the polluted air but shouldn't the sulfuric acid created by that same rain be mentioned as a 'gift' from the creator as well? Would you be happier to look at the situation through rose colored glasses? Exalt the beauty of the flowers but ignore the lepers?
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