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Post by Gene on Mar 19, 2015 17:31:28 GMT -5
I think we should blame it all on religion. Think about it: Would the woman who endured the 20 questions from LW have stood for the same from her supervisor at her work? Of course not! She would have walked out on him and phoned the personnel people and filed a complaint. So why put up with it from LW? Because he held the keys to her salvation, figuratively speaking and with great hyperbole. So, blame religion. Disclaimer: I have made loads of groundless assumptions in the foregoing logic, but that doesn't stop me from thinking I'm right
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Post by mdm on Mar 19, 2015 17:31:34 GMT -5
Privacy? A record of this incident, complete with names, has been circulated in print form for five years. It's been discussed in all its gory detail here for five years, do you really think there is any meaningful privacy left? What a joke. The way discussions like this re-victimize the victims is nearly always ignored. Does anyone think victims appreciate a bunch of people who were not involved hashing the incident out in public on a board like this? For five years? What do people think these victims think when they read threads like this? Doesn't anyone care about that? I suppose for many the end justifies the means, that the loss of privacy because a bunch of people who's business it isn't know all the details is considered to be small sacrifice for a victim to make for the "greater good". Threads like this always seem to have this pathetic element to them. I Agree, gossip mongering and speculations and everyone seems to be an expert in the field and knows what is best, with little consideration for victims or accusers, that is a pathetic part of the whole scenario. Such matters are not successfully resolved and brought to a closure on a forum like this. Such matters cannot be resolved here, but they can be exposed. In the past they have been exposed on the internet and as a result the overseers were forced to resolve them. As one overseer personally told us, IH would still "probably" be in the work if it weren't for internet exposure and pressure. Given what two overseers have told us about LW, and given other two overseers' silence in response to our questions, my conclusion is that LW would still be in the work or would be re-instated were it not for internet exposure as well, in spite of a long list of complaints and allegations against him, as reported by Scott and others, which would only lead to more victims and more revictimization. Exposing these matters also educates potential victims and those who would be in the position to give them support - it prevents future victimization and revictimization.
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Post by emy on Mar 19, 2015 17:32:46 GMT -5
In general, I find that your posts don't contribute to the discussion of issues that are important to me on this forum, but rather attempt to sidetrack and distract from them - especially through real or fained ignorance of the mentality and dynamics within the 2x2 fellowship. Because of that, I rarely read what you write, except when you address your posts directly to me. Given two personal attacks on me coming from you in two days and given your continual claiming I said something I did not and twisting of my words, I will not be answering your question, now or in the future. If there is a way to put you on ignore, I will do so. I wish you all the best. Here are Rational's posts to you in the past 3 days. Where is the attack?
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Post by fixit on Mar 19, 2015 17:50:04 GMT -5
However, it does not have to be all one way or another. Perpetrators should be held at least as responsible as the victims. I agree with this. But no one should completely turn their personal well being or safety over to another as if that person will actually rise to their responsibility. Responsibility is a hard thing to force. I've had to tell people I work with, "lower your expectations". Sad, but that's the way it is. Less chance of being disappointed or getting hurt. It's hard though, to lower our expectations of overseers and the ministry that we've been taught to trust and respect. Shouldn't we be encouraging them to behave more responsibly - not less responsibly?
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Post by Gene on Mar 19, 2015 17:50:46 GMT -5
In the situation I know about, LW showed up unannounced. He was certainly aware of the husband's comings and goings, and was in a position that made it difficult for the woman to refuse his visits. Any more information would potentially violate her privacy, so I will not give any more. Privacy? A record of this incident, complete with names, has been circulated in print form for five years. It's been discussed in all its gory detail here for five years, do you really think there is any meaningful privacy left? What a joke. The way discussions like this re-victimize the victims is nearly always ignored. Does anyone think victims appreciate a bunch of people who were not involved hashing the incident out in public on a board like this? For five years? What do people think these victims think when they read threads like this? Doesn't anyone care about that? I suppose for many the end justifies the means, that the loss of privacy because a bunch of people who's business it isn't know all the details is considered to be small sacrifice for a victim to make for the "greater good". Threads like this always seem to have this pathetic element to them. I don't know, Jesse. I suspect you would rather see issues like this hashed out between responsible adults who have a "need to know" and only after the kids have gone to bed for the night. As Sharon points out in an earlier post, that's probably the right approach in some cases. But in a case like this, where the accuser has made the accusation pubic and the accused is a public figure (within the church, at least, in this case), I'm not sure the back room is the most effective venue for the discussion. Why? Primarily, I think, because back-room discussions on topics like this have served, in the past, to do little more than cover up the incident, move the accused and, in some cases at least, placate the accuser--I'm thinking of the RC Church here and the monetary settlements they reached in some cases. The nature of the discussion here is not only about an incident or series of incidents between one accused and numerous accusers -- it's a systemic issue that cannot be left to those in the back room to find ways to make progress, let alone resolve.
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Post by mdm on Mar 19, 2015 18:20:19 GMT -5
In general, I find that your posts don't contribute to the discussion of issues that are important to me on this forum, but rather attempt to sidetrack and distract from them - especially through real or fained ignorance of the mentality and dynamics within the 2x2 fellowship. Because of that, I rarely read what you write, except when you address your posts directly to me. Given two personal attacks on me coming from you in two days and given your continual claiming I said something I did not and twisting of my words, I will not be answering your question, now or in the future. If there is a way to put you on ignore, I will do so. I wish you all the best. Here are Rational's posts to you in the past 3 days. Where is the attack? "Any rumor, gossip, or allegations leveled against the workers if sufficient evidence, at least according to what you have posted, to indict and convict yet you are willing to bury your head in the sand concerning the whole situation."
"As you said, the details, other than allegations against the workers, are not of interest to you."
These are not just twisting of my words but personal attacks on me and attempt to discredit me. There is more twisting of my words and taking them out of context, but there is no need to go into that.
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Post by rational on Mar 19, 2015 18:59:18 GMT -5
Jesse, I get what you are saying. A month ago, I had my vehicle broken into at a local dog park and had all my cash, credit cards, bank cards stolen. In talking to the police I said "It's MY fault. I knew there was a problem at this particular dog park." The police officer responded (very emphatically - he obviously had been to sensitivity training) "It's NOT your fault, YOU are a victim here." My inner response was (eye roll) "Give me a break.".... <snip> Painfully well written and reasoned text. We did then what we knew to do; now we know better, we do better. That involves speaking openly, demanding accountability from EVERYONE, and being willing to acknowledge and confront the misogynistic attitudes that permits these kinds of things to keep happening. It is very disappointing when you post something and I have to agree with what you said!
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Post by rational on Mar 19, 2015 19:09:14 GMT -5
It is said that silence is golden, it is also said that silence implies/gives consent , but it is also said that silence breeds contempt. I thought it was familiarity and silence was the most perfect expression of scorn. Learn something every day.
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Post by rational on Mar 19, 2015 19:33:55 GMT -5
In general, I find that your posts don't contribute to the discussion of issues that are important to me on this forum, but rather attempt to sidetrack and distract from them - especially through real or fained ignorance of the mentality and dynamics within the 2x2 fellowship. Because of that, I rarely read what you write, except when you address your posts directly to me. Given two personal attacks on me coming from you in two days and given your continual claiming I said something I did not and twisting of my words, I will not be answering your question, now or in the future. In rereading the posts I see I have been in error and was attributing ideas posted by another poster to you. That would explain why I attributed concepts to you and said some things that you never did. It was not just the referenced posts but ideas that the other poster had been posting over time. It was my error and I apologize. There is. Click on Members at the top of the page, in the Search field enter 'rational', click on the name 'rational', click on the Profile Options (the little gear icon)drop down, click on Block Member, check the appropriate boxes to take the action(s) you wish, and finally click on the Block Member button and you are all set.Thank you. I hope blocking my posts improves improves your experience reading and posting here.
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Post by Scott Ross on Mar 19, 2015 20:11:58 GMT -5
Privacy? A record of this incident, complete with names, has been circulated in print form for five years. It's been discussed in all its gory detail here for five years, do you really think there is any meaningful privacy left? What a joke. The way discussions like this re-victimize the victims is nearly always ignored. Does anyone think victims appreciate a bunch of people who were not involved hashing the incident out in public on a board like this? For five years? What do people think these victims think when they read threads like this? Doesn't anyone care about that? I suppose for many the end justifies the means, that the loss of privacy because a bunch of people who's business it isn't know all the details is considered to be small sacrifice for a victim to make for the "greater good". Threads like this always seem to have this pathetic element to them. I have no knowledge of a report being circulated in gory detail for five years. It is unlikely the same woman. I'm am not aware of any on this board who know of the situation I refer to. I think that is a problem here. Multiple victims are being discussed, and people are thinking it is the same one. I am not sure which one Jesse is referring to, the 'alleged' rape victim, or the vicim of sexual harassment that I posted the meeting about. (and you are posting about a different woman than either of those....) I think that points out how there is definitely a problem with this particular ex-worker.
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Post by SharonArnold on Mar 19, 2015 21:29:07 GMT -5
It is very disappointing when you post something and I have to agree with what you said! Ha!! Now that's something you're just going to have to deal with!
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Post by rational on Mar 19, 2015 22:41:30 GMT -5
It is very disappointing when you post something and I have to agree with what you said! Ha!! :D Now that's something you're just going to have to deal with! I have calmed myself by applying Grubbs' test (the normality of the situation is assumed) and decided this is a statistical outlier which can safely be forgotten!
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Post by bubbles on Mar 19, 2015 22:44:56 GMT -5
It is said that silence is golden, it is also said that silence implies/gives consent , but it is also said that silence breeds contempt. I thought it was familiarity and silence was the most perfect expression of scorn. Learn something every day. Silence can also be a form of control.
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Post by rational on Mar 19, 2015 23:01:49 GMT -5
I thought it was familiarity and silence was the most perfect expression of scorn. Learn something every day. Silence can also be a form of control. It can often elicit information from people.
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Post by matisse on Mar 20, 2015 1:43:56 GMT -5
There have been a number of incredibly thoughtful and IMO insightful posts made to this thread....most written by women, but also a few by a small number of men who somehow have ended up with uncommon insight into the myriad challenges women and girls face in this misogynistic world that many men don't ever have to think about. There are only two ways to deal with a world that's perceived to be inherently misogynistic: Eliminate misogyny, or teach and use proactive prevention power at the individual level. Is this an "expert" opinion that you are asserting? I find that "either/or" "all/none" thinking limits one's view of possibilities. I would suggest you consider "both/and". "Perceived" misogyny....interesting choice of words. So you not only have an expert analysis of what women are up against, you are also taking it upon yourself to explain to women the most "logical and rational" approach to take from here! Can you see any irony in this? Hint: If you cannot, don't "worry your pretty little head"! Who in this thread has said that they are not in favor of personal empowerment for women or that they are not in favor of women being proactive about preventing assaults?
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 20, 2015 3:10:30 GMT -5
There are only two ways to deal with a world that's perceived to be inherently misogynistic: Eliminate misogyny, or teach and use proactive prevention power at the individual level. Is this an "expert" opinion that you are asserting? I find that "either/or" "all/none" thinking limits one's view of possibilities. I would suggest you consider "both/and". "Perceived" misogyny....interesting choice of words. So you not only have an expert analysis of what women are up against, you are also taking it upon yourself to explain to women the most "logical and rational" approach to take from here! Can you see any irony in this? Hint : If you cannot, don't "worry your pretty little head"! Who in this thread has said that they are not in favor of personal empowerment for women or that they are not in favor of women being proactive about preventing assaults? Hint: If you cannot, don't "worry your pretty little head"!
Great comeback, matisse!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 3:19:17 GMT -5
It is said that silence is golden, it is also said that silence implies/gives consent , but it is also said that silence breeds contempt. I thought it was familiarity and silence was the most perfect expression of scorn. Learn something every day. That too, We live and very often learn something new every day, in a dynamic changing world.
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Post by withlove on Mar 20, 2015 9:06:04 GMT -5
Matisse, we should probably lower our expectations.
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Post by matisse on Mar 20, 2015 9:58:14 GMT -5
Matisse, we should probably lower our expectations. Perhaps!
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Post by mdm on Mar 20, 2015 10:11:23 GMT -5
Is this an "expert" opinion that you are asserting? I find that "either/or" "all/none" thinking limits one's view of possibilities. I would suggest you consider "both/and". "Perceived" misogyny....interesting choice of words. So you not only have an expert analysis of what women are up against, you are also taking it upon yourself to explain to women the most "logical and rational" approach to take from here! Can you see any irony in this? Hint : If you cannot, don't "worry your pretty little head"! Who in this thread has said that they are not in favor of personal empowerment for women or that they are not in favor of women being proactive about preventing assaults? Hint: If you cannot, don't "worry your pretty little head"!
Great comeback, matisse!
Matisse and dmmichgood, there is no need to be derogatory. I find it unpleasant and it makes me question my presence here. These issues are too important to stifle conversation about them through demeaning personal remarks.
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Post by matisse on Mar 20, 2015 10:24:13 GMT -5
You are right, maja. I apologize for the tone of my last post. I could have used a different approach to try to get my point across.
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Post by snow on Mar 20, 2015 11:32:56 GMT -5
I think bottom line is that both sides need to learn how to do things differently. Women should be empowered and learn how to take protective measures in a world that is not always safe for them. But men should also be taught to respect women. Women in the Christian world have been taught that it is good to be submissive to men. It is their role in life. Since we live in a nation/s that are predominately based on Christian thought, we are more likely to have men brought up with the mindset that women are somehow supposed to be there for the man. It's a very subtle thing in some cases and pretty overt in others. I think even the most supportive men of women's rights still have a little bit of belief that women have their place and they have a line (perhaps unconscious) that they don't like to see women cross. I know that if a woman asserts her opinion in the same tone as a man, they get called nags or other derogatory names. But if the man said the same thing they would be seen as stating their opinion and it would be the only right thing to do. So there is a different code still for what women are allowed to do and how they are viewed when they do it. That needs to change because it undermines the authority and respect and safety of women.
Women also need to know that they need to be smart and protect themselves. They can't depend on a man to do the right thing or protect them. They must know it's okay to say no, and to take steps to do something about it if 'no' is not respected. After I was raped I took self protection classes. I was taught how to get out of holds etc. I have taught those things to my children, both my son and my daughter. I had the advantage of being more confident that I could protect myself. I was up against a pretty big man in those classes which helped my confidence. Especially when I realized that a very simple move could free me from a choke hold and put the man on his back. It changed how I viewed my world knowing it was possible if you had the teaching. Not many women bother to learn how to physically protect themselves and yes, not all women can because of physical handicaps, but for most of us, there are things we can learn and I believe we should learn and teach our daughters and even our sons, as they are preyed on also when they are too young or weak to protect themselves.
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Post by withlove on Mar 20, 2015 11:50:02 GMT -5
I should also apologize...the joke about expectations was harmless in my head, but no doubt it didn't sound that way.
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Post by withlove on Mar 20, 2015 12:02:42 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Mar 20, 2015 12:05:30 GMT -5
I should also apologize...the joke about expectations was harmless in my head, but no doubt it didn't sound that way. But there is some truth to it in a way. When we put people like the workers on pedestals we have unreasonable expectations of them. So in that way it is probably a good thing to lower our expectations of the workers because they were inflated to start with. They are just human with human temptations and failures just like everyone else. When we expect that they are somehow different and therefore more trustable, (that's not a word but...) then we have higher expectations of them. That can get us in trouble. We need to make sure we have 'reasonable' expectations. Sometimes that means we lower our expectations to something more reasonable?
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Post by withlove on Mar 20, 2015 12:18:48 GMT -5
I should also apologize...the joke about expectations was harmless in my head, but no doubt it didn't sound that way. But there is some truth to it in a way. When we put people like the workers on pedestals we have unreasonable expectations of them. So in that way it is probably a good thing to lower our expectations of the workers because they were inflated to start with. They are just human with human temptations and failures just like everyone else. When we expect that they are somehow different and therefore more trustable, (that's not a word but...) then we have higher expectations of them. That can get us in trouble. We need to make sure we have 'reasonable' expectations. Sometimes that means we lower our expectations to something more reasonable? Yes, Jesse was making that point and I was jokingly referring to it. And it's a good point. It just feels like a huge chunk of the story is being left out when women are told to accept more responsibility but not empathized with. The last thing a victim needs is to be told that any part of what happened to her is her fault. She's already suffering too much. There needs to be more, not less, condemnation of bad incidents and calling out of the perpetrators. It's somewhat like saying to a black person: enough already...let's not bad-mouth racists...just get your own act together. Until the problem is eradicated, I feel there cannot be enough attempts made at awareness on all fronts.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Mar 20, 2015 12:37:44 GMT -5
All this talk and no action, Scott, where is the baseball bat?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 13:03:18 GMT -5
As a former martial arts student and instructor (hostile situation control) The recent comment regarding one who has learned how to turn a choke hold by an attacker to escape and subdue them was absolutely great to hear! Wish every woman made such effort to acquire that skill and knowledge!
It was my decision to acquire such skills and knowledge, when realizing my and others safety might someday rely upon such knowledge. Smile, once a young child of mine decided to test me, knowing i was partually disabled, jump me thinking to take me by surprise. In the next instant, looking dazedly up at me from the ground, asked "please teach me how you did that?
Later that child and two female friends told me of their being accosted by someone with a knife, at night in a Portland Oregon parking lot. Following hours of training, discipline and practice, that child of mine disarmed the criminal (actually breaking the culprits arm in the process, and awaited the summoned police with a heel firmly placed on the criminal's throat, the other foot pinning down the sleeve of his only working arm. When the police arrived, heard the witnesses, saw the culprit, discovered his i.d. And criminal record, my child did not even have to appear in court.
Wish all you ladies were so armed by training, not to use aggressively, rather defensively with confidence in any time of need. (Yes, I have had to use it on occasion, also.) No none must be a 200 plus pounder 6' plus beast as myself. Even the slightest and weakest of either sex needs such training to give them a "pocket" equalizer. When we teach these things to others we emphasize over and over the training is only to be used for the protection of self and others. This is why it is also taught with meditation, self control and discipline. The latter are reasons most people do not continue with their training, being unwilling for them.
No, you do not need to fear a t.v. episode of long violence, unless it is being used aggressively. Very few and very far between martial arts trainees use such skill to dominate the innocent. Part of the training includes full commitment to never do so, living peacibly with all, using those skills only for their (and other's) self defense. If I could encourage every person to pay the price for such training in self discipline and defense, I have and continue to do so, at any age. Hostile Situation Control is even good training for someone wheelchair bound. Best wishes for all in their acquisition of such ability.
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