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Post by fixit on Mar 18, 2015 19:26:52 GMT -5
Are you suggesting the victim should have left her own home to avoid this worker's advances? I was wondering the same thing. If a woman feels chased out of her home by a sexual predator, it's time to get a restraining/protection order.
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Post by rational on Mar 18, 2015 21:09:42 GMT -5
Are you suggesting the victim should have left her own home to avoid this worker's advances? I am saying there were steps that could have been taken to avoid the confrontation. Or course, there is the reasonable step of the woman telling LW he is not welcome to visit her when her husband is not home but that seemed not to be an option. The husband could have made it clear to LW not to go to the house when he was not home or he would be treated as a trespasser. There are choices to be made. You can put people on pedestals and allow them to dictate how you live your lives or you can decide how you want to live your lives. Of course the woman should not have to leave her home to avoid being questioned inappropriately by a worker. And there are steps that will eliminate that threat. But that is a choice that only the person can make. If you believe the workers control whether a person will gain eternal life you may be limiting your options.
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Post by withlove on Mar 18, 2015 21:19:50 GMT -5
It would be good to be able to separate the facts from trying to place blame. This is where the education of parents and children needs to be improved. We are talking about adults in these situations. I understand that the workers have been placed on a pedestal (and in some cases workers have climbed up there themselves) but is someone asks you if your husband gets an erection how high can that pedestal be? A good argument to have the facts all on the table so there is no doubt regarding what happened and no reason to ask questions. It seems like the focus of the meeting with Barry was about what LW did rather than what the woman did. Maybe it wasn't important to any of them, or maybe it just wasn't recorded. It could take years, or significant reading and/or counseling, for a victim to be able to give an explanation of her reaction or non-reaction. She may not understand why she felt or acted how she did. It would be good for people to understand how abusers (or people who abuse their power or harass or w/e) work and how victims process the info in general. Generally... An abuser does not introduce himself and then punch you. Or show up on a friendly spiritual visit, shake your hand and say, "Hey, how about X's erection?" It is all done in a way designed to confuse and manipulate and throw the victim off guard. Let's say the accused is articulate. And sensitive...he has often been openly emotional and evoked emotion in others. He has been convincing in the role of spiritual shepherd. He is calm and has arresting, hypnotizing eye contact. He appears deeply loving and empathetic. He cares about your well-being to the point that it makes him appear vulnerable. When workers come to your home you feel warm and fuzzy and everything is special. Now here is a private audience with a wonderful speaker whom everyone loves. How extra special! You are nervous maybe, or delighted, or both. He starts talking in the same tone of voice he discusses prayer in. Or you are worried and suspicious. And it gets much worse than you expected. And you don't know how to respond or when to stop him or if you even can stop him. Should you hear him out so you can report it? Should you tell him immediately to leave (if you do this, you won't have enough of a story to make anyone care)? What if he gets angry and physical? Maybe you do tell him you are uncomfortable and he keeps asking the questions anyway. Maybe he launches into a monologue with the questions asked without time for you to answer them one at a time. Maybe he is between you and the door or you and the phone. Maybe you think you'll try to reprimand him when he's done with this spiel, and that you'll help him to repent and no one will be harmed. Maybe you are in total shock, trying to process what is happening while keeping a neutral face and letting him talk. Maybe you are running through possible outcomes in your head...like having to pretend nothing happened forever, or telling your husband and him possibly over-reacting, or how suddenly you are alienated by this powerful person and no one will believe you and you will lose everything if you speak up and if you don't speak up you will have to silently run from this man your whole life. In any of these cases, what you actually say and do mean less than what he says and does. What he is doing is blatantly wrong and intentional. You are reacting out of confusion and likely fear, in the moment. I would say that even if you were to be swayed somewhat by his seductive attentions, in that situation, your are not on equal footing. He is the predator in power and you are the surprised sheep. Even if there is sin on your part, you were influenced by someone you trust to be a spiritual guide. All that is to paint the picture of how things can be and often are. I have no personal knowledge of the situation between LW and any of the women who have been mentioned. But just to point out that surface facts don't tell the whole story. When a victim is a minor, we don't expect to judge the case based on how emphatically the victim discouraged the accused. We just say it was wrong to happen at all. In the case of a controlled religious structure in which a powerful spiritual leader is harassing a subservient member (especially when the leader is male and the member is female, or when the age difference is significant), the facts should be weighed accordingly. Facts are facts, yes. But the facts of what was going on inside her head are more important to me than whatever it is that she said or did (yes, I'm biased). And those facts could be hard to discover.
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Post by rational on Mar 18, 2015 21:22:57 GMT -5
Are you suggesting the victim should have left her own home to avoid this worker's advances? I was wondering the same thing. I have responded to the above but it is clear that the victims beliefs severely limited her options. Leaving the house was one that came to mind - not one that should be followed but one that could be followed. Not answering the door. Allowing solitary visits by sexual predators. Do you have any solutions
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raheli
New Member
I was here before as Shosho. Lost my account info. Nothing scintillating to add, then or now.
Posts: 10
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Post by raheli on Mar 18, 2015 21:28:31 GMT -5
Sounds like the poor woman was an leader's wife, or lived on a convention grounds. From past experience, workers tend to feel "at home" to the point that boundaries are ignored. If the workers come and go at will, (one of the extra "privileges" the overseer is referring to when he comes to announce the new grand privilege of having the Sunday mtg), which turns into a nightmare of unannounced drop ins, extra requirements for their physical "needs" and a plethora of other annoying scenarios.
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Post by rational on Mar 18, 2015 21:50:08 GMT -5
An abuser does not introduce himself and then punch you. Or show up on a friendly spiritual visit, shake your hand and say, "Hey, how about X's erection?" It is all done in a way designed to confuse and manipulate and throw the victim off guard. Let's say the accused is articulate. And sensitive...he has often been openly emotional and evoked emotion in others. He has been convincing in the role of spiritual shepherd. He is calm and has arresting, hypnotizing eye contact. He appears deeply loving and empathetic. He cares about your well-being to the point that it makes him appear vulnerable. When workers come to your home you feel warm and fuzzy and everything is special. Now here is a private audience with a wonderful speaker whom everyone loves. How extra special! You are nervous maybe, or delighted, or both. He starts talking in the same tone of voice he discusses prayer in. At this point the actions of the victim did nothing to dissuade a return visit. And in any of the outlined possibilities the actions of the victim played a large part in determining what happened next. We are talking about adults, not children. There are always external factors that need to be considered but there is no benefit in ignoring the actions of those involved. It would be like reporting on a battle and only telling about the actions of one side. Those facts could well be impossible to determine. However, the actions are observable and it is the actions, not the thoughts, that determine the outcome.
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Post by rational on Mar 18, 2015 21:54:15 GMT -5
Sounds like the poor woman was an leader's wife, or lived on a convention grounds. From past experience, workers tend to feel "at home" to the point that boundaries are ignored. If the workers come and go at will, (one of the extra "privileges" the overseer is referring to when he comes to announce the new grand privilege of having the Sunday mtg), which turns into a nightmare of unannounced drop ins, extra requirements for their physical "needs" and a plethora of other annoying scenarios. It sounds like you are suggesting that what happened is collateral damage due to being an elder/leader's wife and can not be controlled by a devout believer.
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Post by withlove on Mar 18, 2015 22:24:01 GMT -5
An abuser does not introduce himself and then punch you. Or show up on a friendly spiritual visit, shake your hand and say, "Hey, how about X's erection?" It is all done in a way designed to confuse and manipulate and throw the victim off guard. Let's say the accused is articulate. And sensitive...he has often been openly emotional and evoked emotion in others. He has been convincing in the role of spiritual shepherd. He is calm and has arresting, hypnotizing eye contact. He appears deeply loving and empathetic. He cares about your well-being to the point that it makes him appear vulnerable. When workers come to your home you feel warm and fuzzy and everything is special. Now here is a private audience with a wonderful speaker whom everyone loves. How extra special! You are nervous maybe, or delighted, or both. He starts talking in the same tone of voice he discusses prayer in. At this point the actions of the victim did nothing to dissuade a return visit. And in any of the outlined possibilities the actions of the victim played a large part in determining what happened next. We are talking about adults, not children. There are always external factors that need to be considered but there is no benefit in ignoring the actions of those involved. It would be like reporting on a battle and only telling about the actions of one side. Those facts could well be impossible to determine. However, the actions are observable and it is the actions, not the thoughts, that determine the outcome. There were multiple visits? I didn't realize that. LW let the cat out of the bag in the meeting that he did indeed say those things (if we believe the letters, then he did), and he made no counter-accusation like "she seduced me first, and I was the one reacting," (we haven't heard anything like this, have we?). You are pointing out that the woman had opportunity and power to stop him. I'm pointing out that she may not have felt like she had either.
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raheli
New Member
I was here before as Shosho. Lost my account info. Nothing scintillating to add, then or now.
Posts: 10
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Post by raheli on Mar 18, 2015 23:57:21 GMT -5
Sounds like the poor woman was an leader's wife, or lived on a convention grounds. From past experience, workers tend to feel "at home" to the point that boundaries are ignored. If the workers come and go at will, (one of the extra "privileges" the overseer is referring to when he comes to announce the new grand privilege of having the Sunday mtg), which turns into a nightmare of unannounced drop ins, extra requirements for their physical "needs" and a plethora of other annoying scenarios. It sounds like you are suggesting that what happened is collateral damage due to being an elder/leader's wife and can not be controlled by a devout believer. Not sure I understood your reply. I was just making an observation, because living in homes where mtgs, and/or conventions are held, and/or at the address for worker's mail, tends to make some workers more prone to blurring the lines of what I consider common decency. I speak from personal experience, having lived in such a home. This might explain how LW had such ease of access to the husband's schedule, probably having spent much time in the home previously. It could also explain how/why the woman didn't feel empowered to avoid further visits. It may have been more simple than that devout belief prevented her refusal. JMT.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2015 6:40:29 GMT -5
Ma'am, I see by your profile that you are female, (smile) ageless, and a recent member to join this forum, very recent. Please accept this feeble welcome to this forum.
No matter. What I perceive by these simple and recent posts of yours, is that you are a very perceptive, and even compassionate woman. In the matter of the second party in this widely reported situation, your comments assured me that my perceptions in this situation are perhaps not so far from reasonable as some might wish us to believe. As I plainly leave on record, I am just days short of living 72 years on this earth.
It has been my privilege to learn discipline in uniformed service to my country as private to eventual Commander for 27 of those years before health and uncontrolable medical conditions literally grounded me. Additionally, I learned discipline as a member of the 2&2 preacher religion for over 45 of those years.
During that time, I have made many observations about men and women and the frequently complicated relationships between them. Also, it has been my pleasure and joy to have had relationships with some lovely ladies, including a total of over 44 years of marriage to two of the finest women upon the face of the earth. I relate this much as a job applicant presents a resume to establish their qualifications.
From these experiences in life it has been an observation of mine that a charming man (which I am not) can bewitch many women, and vice versa. A "worker" is in a place that enables presenting themselves as just such a charming person, and those they have charmed likely think themselves as the sole and genuine object of true love and affection. Such perpetuators do not even know the meaning of these qualities. Both men and women unfortunately can be seduced by those with dishonorable intent. Later, observers with perfect hindsight can lay blame upon scoundrel and their victims alike, with some seeming to try to do so even in this forum.
When inequalities exist in such relationships, it is my firm conviction that the blame game reveals complete irrational, even ignorant reasoning regarding those types of situations. This forum seems to me to be a place where such unjust and even unconscionable logic is being considered by some as a sound basis for judgment of those persons involved. I for one am glad that the U.S. Court System has finally begun to lay more, even full, accountability on the part of those with "the power" (i.e. teachers, preachers, employers, etc.)
In this matter of the one this thread regards, my own mother was completely enamoured by him. As to what extent, I have no idea. I only heard of nothing but highest praises for and of him.
My perceptions of him and anyone like him are simply those of a dishonorable cad.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 19, 2015 7:35:49 GMT -5
In the situation I know about, LW showed up unannounced. He was certainly aware of the husband's comings and goings, and was in a position that made it difficult for the woman to refuse his visits. Any more information would potentially violate her privacy, so I will not give any more. Privacy? A record of this incident, complete with names, has been circulated in print form for five years. It's been discussed in all its gory detail here for five years, do you really think there is any meaningful privacy left? What a joke. The way discussions like this re-victimize the victims is nearly always ignored. Does anyone think victims appreciate a bunch of people who were not involved hashing the incident out in public on a board like this? For five years? What do people think these victims think when they read threads like this? Doesn't anyone care about that? I suppose for many the end justifies the means, that the loss of privacy because a bunch of people who's business it isn't know all the details is considered to be small sacrifice for a victim to make for the "greater good". Threads like this always seem to have this pathetic element to them.
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Post by rational on Mar 19, 2015 8:19:31 GMT -5
I was wondering the same thing. If a woman feels chased out of her home by a sexual predator, it's time to get a restraining/protection order. Yet another solution.
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Post by placid-void on Mar 19, 2015 8:23:07 GMT -5
The way discussions like this re-victimize the victims is nearly always ignored. Does anyone think victims appreciate a bunch of people who were not involved hashing the incident out in public on a board like this? For five years? What do people think these victims think when they read threads like this? Doesn't anyone care about that? I suppose for many the end justifies the means, that the loss of privacy because a bunch of people who's business it isn't know all the details is considered to be small sacrifice for a victim to make for the "greater good". Threads like this always seem to have this pathetic element to them. Jesse, I was going to "click" the "Like it" button for your post but then I realized that I didn't like the need for your post at all! But I do agree and support the sentiment you express in your post.
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Post by rational on Mar 19, 2015 8:26:43 GMT -5
There were multiple visits? I didn't realize that. Again, I only know what has been posted regarding this situation: In the situation I know about, LW showed up unannounced. He was certainly aware of the husband's comings and goings, and was in a position that made it difficult for the woman to refuse his visits. This poster claims to know more details and indicated there were multiple visits. No, we have not heard that there was encouragement nor rejection. That part of the situation is what is missing. She did have the power but may not have believed she did not that she was willing, at least at the time, for what it would 'cost' to take action. As fixit mentioned, taking legal action would have been a harsh, but effective, measure.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2015 8:27:15 GMT -5
In the situation I know about, LW showed up unannounced. He was certainly aware of the husband's comings and goings, and was in a position that made it difficult for the woman to refuse his visits. Any more information would potentially violate her privacy, so I will not give any more. Privacy? A record of this incident, complete with names, has been circulated in print form for five years. It's been discussed in all its gory detail here for five years, do you really think there is any meaningful privacy left? What a joke. The way discussions like this re-victimize the victims is nearly always ignored. Does anyone think victims appreciate a bunch of people who were not involved hashing the incident out in public on a board like this? For five years? What do people think these victims think when they read threads like this? Doesn't anyone care about that? I suppose for many the end justifies the means, that the loss of privacy because a bunch of people who's business it isn't know all the details is considered to be small sacrifice for a victim to make for the "greater good". Threads like this always seem to have this pathetic element to them. I Agree, gossip mongering and speculations and everyone seems to be an expert in the field and knows what is best, with little consideration for victims or accusers, that is a pathetic part of the whole scenario. Such matters are not successfully resolved and brought to a closure on a forum like this.
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Post by matisse on Mar 19, 2015 9:32:51 GMT -5
In the situation I know about, LW showed up unannounced. He was certainly aware of the husband's comings and goings, and was in a position that made it difficult for the woman to refuse his visits. Any more information would potentially violate her privacy, so I will not give any more. Privacy? A record of this incident, complete with names, has been circulated in print form for five years. It's been discussed in all its gory detail here for five years, do you really think there is any meaningful privacy left? What a joke. The way discussions like this re-victimize the victims is nearly always ignored. Does anyone think victims appreciate a bunch of people who were not involved hashing the incident out in public on a board like this? For five years? What do people think these victims think when they read threads like this? Doesn't anyone care about that? I suppose for many the end justifies the means, that the loss of privacy because a bunch of people who's business it isn't know all the details is considered to be small sacrifice for a victim to make for the "greater good". Threads like this always seem to have this pathetic element to them. Did you ask the victim(s)? Have you noticed that over the past few months, over 30 women have chosen to place their painful and private horrors in the public spotlight in order to stand in solidarity with other (alleged) victims of a famous (alleged) serial predator/rapist? That so many women are going public with their stories so many years after the fact makes perfect sense to me. Does it make sense to you? If it does, then perhaps you can consider the possibility that the women whose experiences are documented in this and other threads, chose to make their private nightmares public. I believe the discussion is an important one that will unfortunately need to happen over and over again. There have been a number of incredibly thoughtful and IMO insightful posts made to this thread....most written by women, but also a few by a small number of men who somehow have ended up with uncommon insight into the myriad challenges women and girls face in this misogynistic world that many men don't ever have to think about.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 19, 2015 10:29:16 GMT -5
There have been a number of incredibly thoughtful and IMO insightful posts made to this thread....most written by women, but also a few by a small number of men who somehow have ended up with uncommon insight into the myriad challenges women and girls face in this misogynistic world that many men don't ever have to think about. There are only two ways to deal with a world that's perceived to be inherently misogynistic: Eliminate misogyny, or teach and use proactive prevention power at the individual level. Given the low succcess rate of changing the behavior of others as a solution, I believe the second is the most logical and rational approach. A proactive before-the-event solution is always better than merely reacting after an event has happened. Advocating the personal empowerment approach isn't as "feel good" though because uninvolved people can't get on their self righteousness bandwagons and crucify the perpetrators. Doing that feels good but will never be an effective way to prevent the victimization on the front lines where it actually happens.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2015 10:37:01 GMT -5
I agree that discussion is an important avenue to highlight these cases and to garner support for action,but I Believe that there must be some official special procedure of action through which victims can channel their complaints in order to obtain justice. For example in the UK the police authorities have open up special channels: an "operation sting" for example through which victims can make official complaints and these complaints are followed up by investigations and recently we have seen several high profile abusers brought to court and some have been tried, found guilty, and incarcerated; some of these abusers are very much advanced in age as some of the abuses have been committed many years ago. That has not saved them from facing the music.Some of those convicted were high profile people including teachers, and Celebrities, and I believe even religeous persons, who had paraded themselves as the pillars of society
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2015 13:33:04 GMT -5
Rat, If Leslie ever is charged with any of these aligations I hope he goes to you for advice on how to get out of them.
Are you a lawyer or did you want to be one?
I think you missed your calling in life. You would have made a perfect OVERSEER for "TRUTH"!
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Post by withlove on Mar 19, 2015 13:39:34 GMT -5
There have been a number of incredibly thoughtful and IMO insightful posts made to this thread....most written by women, but also a few by a small number of men who somehow have ended up with uncommon insight into the myriad challenges women and girls face in this misogynistic world that many men don't ever have to think about. There are only two ways to deal with a world that's perceived to be inherently misogynistic: Eliminate misogyny, or teach and use proactive prevention power at the individual level. Given the low succcess rate of changing the behavior of others as a solution, I believe the second is the most logical and rational approach. A proactive before the event solution is always better than merely reacting after an event has happened. Advocating the personal empowerment approach isn't as "feel good" though because uninvolved people can't get on their self righteousness bandwagons and crucify the perpetrators. Doing that feels good but will never be an effective way to prevent the victimization on the front lines where it actually happens. Being educated and proactive about preventing is of course essential. When we talk about how a victim becomes a victim and how a perpetrator works, and how much the victim can be blamed, etc., that is part of the education. This issue in general, and even the specific case this thread is about, IS personal to more than just the "involved" parties. It's important history that needs to be talked about, especially because it isn't really history when enough change hasn't happened. What "feels good" is knowing that despite the overseers' (and others') vilification of the victim and protection of the perpetrator, we can put another perspective out there, which we can hope makes a difference. Otherwise, it doesn't feel good at all to think or talk about such an awful situation. I'm sorry if mine or others' posts come across as self-righteous. I just see a big need for awareness of cult culture and abusive situations, and I feel sympathy for victims and victims-to-be. If I knew years ago what I now know on the subject, I would not have been victimized in the way I was. I certainly think that hearing the side that I and others are presenting would have been effective in preventing it.
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Post by fixit on Mar 19, 2015 13:48:09 GMT -5
There have been a number of incredibly thoughtful and IMO insightful posts made to this thread....most written by women, but also a few by a small number of men who somehow have ended up with uncommon insight into the myriad challenges women and girls face in this misogynistic world that many men don't ever have to think about. There are only two ways to deal with a world that's perceived to be inherently misogynistic: Eliminate misogyny, or teach and use proactive prevention power at the individual level. Given the low succcess rate of changing the behavior of others as a solution, I believe the second is the most logical and rational approach. A proactive before-the-event solution is always better than merely reacting after an event has happened. Advocating the personal empowerment approach isn't as "feel good" though because uninvolved people can't get on their self righteousness bandwagons and crucify the perpetrators. Doing that feels good but will never be an effective way to prevent the victimization on the front lines where it actually happens. How would you suggest personally empowering Friends and Workers to protect themselves from sexual predators higher in the hierarchy than they are? You can point the finger at overseers for failing to empower their staff, and parents for failing to empower their children, but in practical terms what are your recommendations for preventing further victimization on the front lines where it actually happens?
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Post by SharonArnold on Mar 19, 2015 14:47:49 GMT -5
There have been a number of incredibly thoughtful and IMO insightful posts made to this thread....most written by women, but also a few by a small number of men who somehow have ended up with uncommon insight into the myriad challenges women and girls face in this misogynistic world that many men don't ever have to think about. There are only two ways to deal with a world that's perceived to be inherently misogynistic: Eliminate misogyny, or teach and use proactive prevention power at the individual level. Given the low succcess rate of changing the behavior of others as a solution, I believe the second is the most logical and rational approach. A proactive before-the-event solution is always better than merely reacting after an event has happened. Advocating the personal empowerment approach isn't as "feel good" though because uninvolved people can't get on their self righteousness bandwagons and crucify the perpetrators. Doing that feels good but will never be an effective way to prevent the victimization on the front lines where it actually happens. Jesse, I get what you are saying. A month ago, I had my vehicle broken into at a local dog park and had all my cash, credit cards, bank cards stolen. In talking to the police I said "It's MY fault. I knew there was a problem at this particular dog park." The police officer responded (very emphatically - he obviously had been to sensitivity training) "It's NOT your fault, YOU are a victim here." My inner response was (eye roll) "Give me a break." The bottom line is that I knew there was a problem - someone had posted warnings a few months prior that the same thing had happened to them. Knowing that, I still left my purse in my vehicle ( though well-concealed) anyhow. There's a lot people can do to not become a victim, and your actions are the only ones you have control over. No question about that. However, it does not have to be all one way or another. Perpetrators should be held at least as responsible as the victims. Or, as Dennis eloquently pointed out earlier, greater accountability should be expected from those with "the power". This conspiracy of silence regarding sexual misconduct serves no one in our day and age. Yes, I do believe there is a time within the fellowship when wrongdoing should be covered, even as Noah's sons covered him when he was naked and drunk in his tent. An example of this comes to mind from many years ago, when a professing kid in my geographic area, stole some money out of someone's purse at a get-together at someone's house. This should have been dealt with quietly, in consultation with the parents and the kid. Instead, they chose to make a spectacle of the kid - he had to publicly apologize, and then re-profess when he next had an opportunity. Really??!!! And they can demand no accountability from sexual predators? Now, how screwed up is that? Now, I know all about conspiracies of silence. I was not quite a legal adult when the Syd Lee stuff happened in Manitoba. Though it was remarkably openly dealt within the province of Manitoba, we closed ranks on anyone outside the province. Also for the newly or weakly professing. I was one of many who thought this was an isolated incident within the whole history of 2X2ism, said "Thank goodness this did not hit the media, as it would have done irreparable harm to 'The Truth'. Wrong. It was only the tip of the iceberg. Had it been spoken of widely, how many more victims would have been prepared so that they themselves did not become victims? We did then what we knew to do; now we know better, we do better. That involves speaking openly, demanding accountability from EVERYONE, and being willing to acknowledge and confront the misogynistic attitudes that permits these kinds of things to keep happening.
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Post by applesandbacon on Mar 19, 2015 14:55:05 GMT -5
In the situation I know about, LW showed up unannounced. He was certainly aware of the husband's comings and goings, and was in a position that made it difficult for the woman to refuse his visits. Any more information would potentially violate her privacy, so I will not give any more. Privacy? A record of this incident, complete with names, has been circulated in print form for five years. It's been discussed in all its gory detail here for five years, do you really think there is any meaningful privacy left? What a joke. The way discussions like this re-victimize the victims is nearly always ignored. Does anyone think victims appreciate a bunch of people who were not involved hashing the incident out in public on a board like this? For five years? What do people think these victims think when they read threads like this? Doesn't anyone care about that? I suppose for many the end justifies the means, that the loss of privacy because a bunch of people who's business it isn't know all the details is considered to be small sacrifice for a victim to make for the "greater good". Threads like this always seem to have this pathetic element to them. I have no knowledge of a report being circulated in gory detail for five years. It is unlikely the same woman. I'm am not aware of any on this board who know of the situation I refer to.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2015 15:23:00 GMT -5
It is said that silence is golden, it is also said that silence implies/gives consent , but it is also said that silence breeds contempt. Beware of Silence, it can be used as a double edge sword, it cuts both sides. It can cut/injure one party and shield, protect and cover up for another party somewhat like a brotherhood of the "Secret Order."
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Post by mdm on Mar 19, 2015 16:30:00 GMT -5
My point was that there is no need to know more about the alleged victim of harassment in order to make a judgment on LW's suitability for the ministry since this is not the only allegation against him - there are many. Again, I do not think anyone is disputing this fact. I know. As you said, the details, other than allegations against the workers, are not of interest to you. I assumed that you were looking for facts regarding the situation. In that light - have you gathered any information directly from any of the victims or the offenders? In general, I find that your posts don't contribute to the discussion of issues that are important to me on this forum, but rather attempt to sidetrack and distract from them - especially through real or fained ignorance of the mentality and dynamics within the 2x2 fellowship. Because of that, I rarely read what you write, except when you address your posts directly to me. Given two personal attacks on me coming from you in two days and given your continual claiming I said something I did not and twisting of my words, I will not be answering your question, now or in the future. If there is a way to put you on ignore, I will do so. I wish you all the best.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 19, 2015 16:53:13 GMT -5
However, it does not have to be all one way or another. Perpetrators should be held at least as responsible as the victims. I agree with this. But no one should completely turn their personal well being or safety over to another as if that person will actually rise to their responsibility. Responsibility is a hard thing to force. I've had to tell people I work with, "lower your expectations". Sad, but that's the way it is. Less chance of being disappointed or getting hurt.
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Post by mdm on Mar 19, 2015 17:03:34 GMT -5
In the situation I know about, LW showed up unannounced. He was certainly aware of the husband's comings and goings, and was in a position that made it difficult for the woman to refuse his visits. Any more information would potentially violate her privacy, so I will not give any more. Privacy? A record of this incident, complete with names, has been circulated in print form for five years. It's been discussed in all its gory detail here for five years, do you really think there is any meaningful privacy left? What a joke. The way discussions like this re-victimize the victims is nearly always ignored. Does anyone think victims appreciate a bunch of people who were not involved hashing the incident out in public on a board like this? For five years? What do people think these victims think when they read threads like this? Doesn't anyone care about that? I suppose for many the end justifies the means, that the loss of privacy because a bunch of people who's business it isn't know all the details is considered to be small sacrifice for a victim to make for the "greater good". Threads like this always seem to have this pathetic element to them. If the victims weren't revictimized by workers in the first place, there would be no need for this discussion. I am not aware of any names of victims being circulated?
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Post by rational on Mar 19, 2015 17:22:52 GMT -5
Rat, If Leslie ever is charged with any of these aligations I hope he goes to you for advice on how to get out of them. This is where emotion clouds clear thinking. Why would I give LW any advice on how to get out of anything? Assuming the information presented is true, and there is no reason to believe it is false even if not complete, I have stated over and over that his behavior was inappropriate and unethical he should be be relieved of his duties. Perhaps you meant because I would advise him to tell the truth and seek treatment? Nope. But I do think it is important when considering the guilt or innocence of another individual that, as far as possible, the evaluation be done without emotion. There is a reason why doctors are strongly advised not to treat members of their family or people to whom they are close. I think I would find it difficult to advise people to submit to an entity in which I do not believe.
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