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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2014 5:52:47 GMT -5
The bible is full of Messiah prophecies. Can't think of any Old Testament preacher who didn't speak of the Coming Messiah. Trouble is - there appear to be TWO Messiahs which I will call the Jewish Messiah and the Christian Messiah.
A scant ten percent of all prophecies speak of the suffering Messiah who would be rejected by His people but atone for their sins. He would be trusted by the Gentiles. The other ninety percent speak of a reigning, conquering King who would deliver Israel out of the hands of its enemies.
The attitude of the Jews is that the Christian case for their Messiah is weak: Jesus didn't tick any of the boxes to be King of the Jews, and having Him come back later to finish the job is a weak argument.
But are there verses which speak of the Messiah as being BOTH redeemer and King?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2014 7:24:04 GMT -5
Isa_44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 7, 2014 22:31:25 GMT -5
great verse, wally!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2014 22:45:47 GMT -5
Had I made this a thread about the Workers it would have had a thousand hits by now, and a few hundred posts. Sad because 2x2's are accused of "focusing upon the Workers and not Jesus." There are two verses which should speak to the Jews about their reigning king. One verse says their conquering king is he whom they "pierced" and the second speaks of their king as also being lowly and riding upon a donkey.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 8, 2014 0:14:50 GMT -5
The bible is full of Messiah prophecies. Can't think of any Old Testament preacher who didn't speak of the Coming Messiah. Trouble is - there appear to be TWO Messiahs which I will call the Jewish Messiah and the Christian Messiah. A scant ten percent of all prophecies speak of the suffering Messiah who would be rejected by His people but atone for their sins. He would be trusted by the Gentiles. The other ninety percent speak of a reigning, conquering King who would deliver Israel out of the hands of its enemies. The attitude of the Jews is that the Christian case for their Messiah is weak: Jesus didn't tick any of the boxes to be King of the Jews, and having Him come back later to finish the job is a weak argument. But are there verses which speak of the Messiah as being BOTH redeemer and King? The Jewish messiah(s) are not related to the Christian Messiah. Christians have just one messiah, in the person of Jesus, who was a "Christ" in the sense of Greek mythology. That is what Christians think messiah means today. But the Jews NEVER referred to nor believed in a "Christ". A "messiah", to Jews, was a human king, or some human obviously chosen by God to perform some great deed. The literal meaning of "messiah" is "anointed one" -- when a person became a king in Israel they used to pour oil over his head. Even the Persian king who accommodated the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem they called a messiah. They did, and still do, expect ANOTHER messiah -- one great enough to restore Israel to its grandeur, but they NEVER believed in a "Christ". That was considered blasphemy among Jews. "Christ" is a Greek mistranslation of the Hebrew word "messiah". In Greek mythology a "Christ" was someone who was the son of a god and born of a human woman, and who lives his life preaching a way for humans to join the gods. And when he died, he returned to join the gods where they reside. It was Paul, a Greek, who originated the use of the word "Christ" for Jesus, which allowed the term redeemer to be applied to him as well. You will not find any reference to a Christ or a redeemer in the Old Testament.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 8, 2014 0:20:24 GMT -5
Had I made this a thread about the Workers it would have had a thousand hits by now, and a few hundred posts. Sad because 2x2's are accused of "focusing upon the Workers and not Jesus." There are two verses which should speak to the Jews about their reigning king. One verse says their conquering king is he whom they "pierced" and the second speaks of their king as also being lowly and riding upon a donkey. A conquering king, yes. And he would be a messiah (anointed king), a human being, and restore Israel/Palestine to greatness. It does not say he would be the son of a god, or a savior of men's souls -- Jews did not believe men had souls according to the Greek definition. The work of the great messiah they planned on was entirely political.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2014 2:59:23 GMT -5
Zechariah 12:9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. These two verses show the Jewish messiah and the Christian Messiah They are joined and refer to the one person.Zechariah 9:9 See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. Zechariah 9:10 I will take away the chariots from Ephraim and the warhorses from Jerusalem, and the battle bow will be broken. He will proclaim peace to the nations. His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth. Again, the reigning King of the Jews, and the lowly Messiah.Isaiah gives us the birth of the Messiah, growing up as a tender plant. David gives us the boy rejected of his own brothers and sisters. David, Isaiah and Jeremiah gives us the crucifixion. Daniel tells us He will come while them temple is still standing. Moses says he will be "like me." Jacob said the Jewish monarchy and law will end with him. Ezekiel says the East Gate of Jerusalem will be sealed because it is the gate the king came through. Zechariah gives us the lowly man on the colt. Job speaks of the day when the Redeemer will stand upon the earth. It would give me great pleasure, if I had the time, to go through all these verses. And if you read Isiah 53 you read an account of Jesus more comprehensive, more vivid than even David's Psalm 22 and 69, and anything the disciples wrote. In fact we read that the writings of the Old Testament helped the disciples understand Jesus when He was still in their midst. And that should be marvelous in our sight, no?
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Post by CherieKropp on Dec 8, 2014 9:45:46 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2014 14:59:41 GMT -5
The bible is full of Messiah prophecies. Can't think of any Old Testament preacher who didn't speak of the Coming Messiah. Trouble is - there appear to be TWO Messiahs which I will call the Jewish Messiah and the Christian Messiah. A scant ten percent of all prophecies speak of the suffering Messiah who would be rejected by His people but atone for their sins. He would be trusted by the Gentiles. The other ninety percent speak of a reigning, conquering King who would deliver Israel out of the hands of its enemies. The attitude of the Jews is that the Christian case for their Messiah is weak: Jesus didn't tick any of the boxes to be King of the Jews, and having Him come back later to finish the job is a weak argument. But are there verses which speak of the Messiah as being BOTH redeemer and King? The Jewish messiah(s) are not related to the Christian Messiah. Christians have just one messiah, in the person of Jesus, who was a "Christ" in the sense of Greek mythology. That is what Christians think messiah means today. But the Jews NEVER referred to nor believed in a "Christ". A "messiah", to Jews, was a human king, or some human obviously chosen by God to perform some great deed. The literal meaning of "messiah" is "anointed one" -- when a person became a king in Israel they used to pour oil over his head. Even the Persian king who accommodated the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem they called a messiah. They did, and still do, expect ANOTHER messiah -- one great enough to restore Israel to its grandeur, but they NEVER believed in a "Christ". That was considered blasphemy among Jews. "Christ" is a Greek mistranslation of the Hebrew word "messiah". In Greek mythology a "Christ" was someone who was the son of a god and born of a human woman, and who lives his life preaching a way for humans to join the gods. And when he died, he returned to join the gods where they reside. It was Paul, a Greek, who originated the use of the word "Christ" for Jesus, which allowed the term redeemer to be applied to him as well. You will not find any reference to a Christ or a redeemer in the Old Testament. there are plenty of references to a redeemer checkout the following: Job_19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: Psa_19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. Psa_78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer. Pro_23:11 For their redeemer is mighty; he shall plead their cause with thee. Isa_41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. Isa_43:14 Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships. Isa_44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isa_44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; Isa_47:4 As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel. Isa_48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. Isa_49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. Isa_49:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. Isa_54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isa_54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer. Isa_59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. Isa_60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. Isa_63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting. Jer_50:34 Their Redeemer is strong; the LORD of hosts is his name: he shall throughly plead their cause, that he may give rest to the land, and disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon.
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Post by snow on Dec 8, 2014 15:09:48 GMT -5
Zechariah 12:9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. These two verses show the Jewish messiah and the Christian Messiah They are joined and refer to the one person.Zechariah 9:9 See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. Zechariah 9:10 I will take away the chariots from Ephraim and the warhorses from Jerusalem, and the battle bow will be broken. He will proclaim peace to the nations. His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth. Again, the reigning King of the Jews, and the lowly Messiah.Isaiah gives us the birth of the Messiah, growing up as a tender plant. David gives us the boy rejected of his own brothers and sisters. David, Isaiah and Jeremiah gives us the crucifixion. Daniel tells us He will come while them temple is still standing. Moses says he will be "like me." Jacob said the Jewish monarchy and law will end with him. Ezekiel says the East Gate of Jerusalem will be sealed because it is the gate the king came through. Zechariah gives us the lowly man on the colt. Job speaks of the day when the Redeemer will stand upon the earth. It would give me great pleasure, if I had the time, to go through all these verses. And if you read Isiah 53 you read an account of Jesus more comprehensive, more vivid than even David's Psalm 22 and 69, and anything the disciples wrote. In fact we read that the writings of the Old Testament helped the disciples understand Jesus when He was still in their midst. And that should be marvelous in our sight, no?Anyone wanting to claim the title of Messiah would be stupid if he didn't try to do all the things he would have read in the prophecies. It's easy to fulfill a prophecy of the Messiah coming into Jerusalem at the right time riding on a donkey. I really don't believe anything came true as far as a Messiah for the Jews.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 8, 2014 19:06:17 GMT -5
The Jewish messiah(s) are not related to the Christian Messiah. Christians have just one messiah, in the person of Jesus, who was a "Christ" in the sense of Greek mythology. That is what Christians think messiah means today. But the Jews NEVER referred to nor believed in a "Christ". A "messiah", to Jews, was a human king, or some human obviously chosen by God to perform some great deed. The literal meaning of "messiah" is "anointed one" -- when a person became a king in Israel they used to pour oil over his head. Even the Persian king who accommodated the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem they called a messiah. They did, and still do, expect ANOTHER messiah -- one great enough to restore Israel to its grandeur, but they NEVER believed in a "Christ". That was considered blasphemy among Jews. "Christ" is a Greek mistranslation of the Hebrew word "messiah". In Greek mythology a "Christ" was someone who was the son of a god and born of a human woman, and who lives his life preaching a way for humans to join the gods. And when he died, he returned to join the gods where they reside. It was Paul, a Greek, who originated the use of the word "Christ" for Jesus, which allowed the term redeemer to be applied to him as well. You will not find any reference to a Christ or a redeemer in the Old Testament. there are plenty of references to a redeemer checkout the following: Job_19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: Psa_19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. Psa_78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer. Pro_23:11 For their redeemer is mighty; he shall plead their cause with thee. Isa_41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. Isa_43:14 Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships. Isa_44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isa_44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; Isa_47:4 As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel. Isa_48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. Isa_49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. Isa_49:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. Isa_54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isa_54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer. Isa_59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. Isa_60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. Isa_63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting. Jer_50:34 Their Redeemer is strong; the LORD of hosts is his name: he shall throughly plead their cause, that he may give rest to the land, and disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon. Slip of my tongue there, wasn't it? I should have said "Christ THE redeemer". But the redeemer of the OT was God, the "Lord of Hosts". And God was also the "savior". Neither redeemer nor savior even have to refer to any divine or sacred entity. But then, neither does "messiah". But "Christ", of course, does. I'm curious -- do you question the fact that Jews did not believe in a "Christ", and still do not?
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 8, 2014 19:08:45 GMT -5
Zechariah 12:9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. These two verses show the Jewish messiah and the Christian Messiah They are joined and refer to the one person.Zechariah 9:9 See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. Zechariah 9:10 I will take away the chariots from Ephraim and the warhorses from Jerusalem, and the battle bow will be broken. He will proclaim peace to the nations. His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth. Again, the reigning King of the Jews, and the lowly Messiah.Isaiah gives us the birth of the Messiah, growing up as a tender plant. David gives us the boy rejected of his own brothers and sisters. David, Isaiah and Jeremiah gives us the crucifixion. Daniel tells us He will come while them temple is still standing. Moses says he will be "like me." Jacob said the Jewish monarchy and law will end with him. Ezekiel says the East Gate of Jerusalem will be sealed because it is the gate the king came through. Zechariah gives us the lowly man on the colt. Job speaks of the day when the Redeemer will stand upon the earth. It would give me great pleasure, if I had the time, to go through all these verses. And if you read Isiah 53 you read an account of Jesus more comprehensive, more vivid than even David's Psalm 22 and 69, and anything the disciples wrote. In fact we read that the writings of the Old Testament helped the disciples understand Jesus when He was still in their midst. And that should be marvelous in our sight, no?Anyone wanting to claim the title of Messiah would be stupid if he didn't try to do all the things he would have read in the prophecies. It's easy to fulfill a prophecy of the Messiah coming into Jerusalem at the right time riding on a donkey. I really don't believe anything came true as far as a Messiah for the Jews. Ironically, most of what came true of what the "Messiah" predicted was everything that happened between Jesus day and the writing of the four gospels.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 8, 2014 19:25:50 GMT -5
Zechariah 12:9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. These two verses show the Jewish messiah and the Christian Messiah They are joined and refer to the one person.Zechariah 9:9 See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. Zechariah 9:10 I will take away the chariots from Ephraim and the warhorses from Jerusalem, and the battle bow will be broken. He will proclaim peace to the nations. His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth. And this is what Jesus accomplished? But not a "Christ" -- a messiah. My whole explanation was that a messiah is NOT NOT a Christ. "Christ" is a serious mistranslation of the Hebrew word "messiah". Jews understand that most of what is written in the book of Isaiah had already happened. It is a book of history, not of prophecy. You know, I'm not crazy. My brother in law is as devout a Jew as you could find, and we discuss this, and he confirms everything I have learned everywhere else. Christians simply do not understand Judaism -- they interpret everything in the OT from a Christian theological perspective that Jews never knew anything about.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2014 19:52:26 GMT -5
there are plenty of references to a redeemer checkout the following: Job_19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: Psa_19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. Psa_78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer. Pro_23:11 For their redeemer is mighty; he shall plead their cause with thee. Isa_41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. Isa_43:14 Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships. Isa_44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isa_44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; Isa_47:4 As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel. Isa_48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. Isa_49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. Isa_49:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. Isa_54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isa_54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer. Isa_59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. Isa_60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. Isa_63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting. Jer_50:34 Their Redeemer is strong; the LORD of hosts is his name: he shall throughly plead their cause, that he may give rest to the land, and disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon. I'm curious -- do you question the fact that Jews did not believe in a "Christ", and still do not? no i don't question that their waiting for a messiah instead of Christ...
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 8, 2014 19:57:04 GMT -5
I'm curious -- do you question the fact that Jews did not believe in a "Christ", and still do not? no i don't question that their waiting for a messiah instead of Christ... So why are you trying to explain that a messiah is a Christ?
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 8, 2014 19:59:02 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2014 20:10:27 GMT -5
no i don't question that their waiting for a messiah instead of Christ... So why are you trying to explain that a messiah is a Christ? because the jews got it wrong their waiting for an elusive messiah and Christ was the one that showed up instead and contrary to your belief some say Christ is the greek for messiah...
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 8, 2014 20:19:42 GMT -5
So why are you trying to explain that a messiah is a Christ? because the jews got it wrong their waiting for an elusive messiah and Christ was the one that showed up instead and contrary to your belief some say Christ is the greek for messiah... So the writers of the Old Testament (being Jews) didn't know what they were talking about. If they had it all wrong, how come everything they wrote turned out so right for Christians?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2014 20:22:25 GMT -5
lewis black is one messed up individual
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2014 20:29:38 GMT -5
because the jews got it wrong their waiting for an elusive messiah and Christ was the one that showed up instead and contrary to your belief some say Christ is the greek for messiah... So the writers of the Old Testament (being Jews) didn't know what they were talking about. If they had it all wrong, how come everything they wrote turned out so right for Christians? your working from the premise that the OT doesn't describe Christ I and others like me say that it does...it wouldn't be the first time that the jews have screwed up the OT law and prophecies....
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Post by snow on Dec 8, 2014 21:25:25 GMT -5
So the writers of the Old Testament (being Jews) didn't know what they were talking about. If they had it all wrong, how come everything they wrote turned out so right for Christians? your working from the premise that the OT doesn't describe Christ I and others like me say that it does...it wouldn't be the first time that the jews have screwed up the OT law and prophecies.... Really? Who came first, Jews or Christians?
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 8, 2014 21:28:47 GMT -5
lewis black is one messed up individual What makes it so funny?
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 8, 2014 21:33:00 GMT -5
So the writers of the Old Testament (being Jews) didn't know what they were talking about. If they had it all wrong, how come everything they wrote turned out so right for Christians? your working from the premise that the OT doesn't describe Christ I and others like me say that it does...it wouldn't be the first time that the jews have screwed up the OT law and prophecies.... You and others like you, huh? Because you say so? Interesting.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 8, 2014 21:38:04 GMT -5
Can't resist.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2014 23:00:09 GMT -5
This cartoon is devilishly Clever. But from a Christian point of view - it completely misses the point. Ideas and values are not be judged by breaches to their principals.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2014 23:05:20 GMT -5
Quote - "Really? Who came first, Jews or Christians?"
I put it to you it was the Christian. Think about it. Was Abraham, and those before him, actually "Jews"? Weren't they from Sumer? (modern Iraq) When did the law of the Old Testament begin? A thousand years after Abraham? How many of the Hebrew and Sumerian saints of the Old Testament were actually living under the law of the Old Testament? Why did so many of these Hebrews/Sumerians etc write of the Messiah?
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 8, 2014 23:21:42 GMT -5
So why are you trying to explain that a messiah is a Christ? because the jews got it wrong their waiting for an elusive messiah and Christ was the one that showed up instead and contrary to your belief some say Christ is the greek for messiah... Geeze, Wally, if the Jewish people in the Old testament got it so wrong, why do Christians like yourself keep on quoting them in attempt to prove the prophecy of Jesus?
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 8, 2014 23:31:36 GMT -5
Quote - "Really? Who came first, Jews or Christians?" I put it to you it was the Christian. Think about it. Was Abraham, and those before him, actually "Jews"? Weren't they from Sumer? (modern Iraq) When did the law of the Old Testament begin? A thousand years after Abraham? How many of the Hebrew and Sumerian saints of the Old Testament were actually living under the law of the Old Testament? Why did so many of these Hebrews/Sumerians etc write of the Messiah? Whoopie! Wallie!
Talk about a being messed up! And you had the nerve to call "Lewis Black is one messed up individual!"
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