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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2014 1:29:59 GMT -5
Bob you still haven't explained how Jacob's prophecy of the house of Judah was post-dated by future biblical redactors.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 14, 2014 2:40:30 GMT -5
Bob you still haven't explained how Jacob's prophecy of the house of Judah was post-dated by future biblical redactors. It wasn't post-dated. It was written AFTER the events were supposed to have happened -- otherwise they probably wouldn't have included it in the OT. Jacob didn't write scripture, and no one else did at that time either. I believe you know that. Put those two things together and what other conclusion could you possibly come to. Suppose I sat down and wrote a chapter about one of the Pilgrims on the Mayflower seeing a vision that a black man would lead the nation they founded for religious freedom. In a verse midway through the chapter I write: And on the calm of the night when Winthrop waited upon the Lord, the still small voice did speak to him in warning tone, saying, because thy people will grow weary of keeping my commandments they will adopt the ways of those around them. And they shall not escape the dread and sorrow that their ways will bring upon them. The land I have given you will be taken from you and thy nation shall be led into the shadow of the evil one who shall reign in terror from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth." Note these things: (1) I wrote it -- today, in 2014. (2) The event happened in 1620. (3) The Pilgrims abandoned their religious fervor. (4) And they assimilated with the "notoriously" liberal masses of Massachusetts. (5) And then accommodated the giving sovereignty to the United States of America. (6) After which further degradation of their society a black president came to power and thrust the country into a terrible depression under his tyrannical furor. How can you argue that Winthrop's prophecy wasn't fulfilled --- to a T? All you have to do is read it once and realize that the man actually saw clearly what was going to become of them in the future. So what's wrong with my portion of scripture?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2014 3:44:03 GMT -5
Gotcha. Now WHEN do you think Jacob's Genesis 49:10 was actually written?
ie there will be a nation of the Hebrews there will be a Judean monarchy there will be a law over Israel the monarchy and law will end with the coming Messiah and this Messiah will belong not to fallen Israel, but to the world.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 14, 2014 16:21:37 GMT -5
Gotcha. Now WHEN do you think Jacob's Genesis 49:10 was actually written? ie there will be a nation of the Hebrews there will be a Judean monarchy there will be a law over Israel the monarchy and law will end with the coming Messiah and this Messiah will belong not to fallen Israel, but to the world. How about Jacob's Genesis 49:10 being written about 538–332 BC & written by those who returned from exile?
As for this prophecy you are trying to prove: "The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from his descendants, until the coming of the one to whom it belongs, the one whom all nations will honor."It really hasn't happened even yet. "The first five books – Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, book of Numbers and Deuteronomy – comprise the Torah, the story of Israel from the Genesis creation narrative to the death of Moses. Few scholars today doubt that it reached its present form in the Persian period (538–332 BC), and that its authors were the elite of exilic returnees who controlled the Temple at that time.[9]
The books of Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings follow, forming a history of Israel from the Conquest of Canaan to the Siege of Jerusalem c. 587 BC. There is a broad consensus among scholars that these originated as a single work (the so-called "Deuteronomistic history") during the Babylonian exile of the 6th century BC.[10] The two Books of Chronicles cover much the same material as the Pentateuch and Deuteronomistic history and probably date from the 4th century BC.[11]
Chronicles links with the books of Ezra and Nehemiah, which were probably finished during the 3rd century BC.[12] Catholic and Orthodox Old Testaments contain two (Catholic Old Testament) to four (Orthodox) Books of Maccabees, written in the 2nd and 1st centuries BC.
The history books make up around half the total content of the Old Testament. Of the remainder, the books of the various prophets – Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel and the twelve "minor prophets" – were written between the 8th and 6th centuries BC, with the exceptions of Jonah and Daniel, which were written much later.[13] The "wisdom" and other books – Job, Proverbs and so on – date from between the 5th century BC and the 2nd or 1st BC, with the exception of some of the Psalms.[14]"
Actually, nothing was written until the return from their exile in Babylon. They had to try to pull together 2 different set of stories to make one story which explains why there is really two different stories of the creation in Genesis.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 14, 2014 19:57:00 GMT -5
Gotcha. Now WHEN do you think Jacob's Genesis 49:10 was actually written? ie there will be a nation of the Hebrews It was written after this event. It was written after this event. It was written after this event. The monarchy (series of messiahs, remember) ended with the coming of the Assyrians, then the Greeks, then the Romans, and everyone else in between. The Law apparently has not yet ended. Where did you get this? Jesus came to the Jews.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2014 6:24:58 GMT -5
The law of Israel ended after Jesus. The OT tells us that Temple would end after Jesus, too.
After the third ruinous war against Rome the Jews not only lost their nation but their laws were banned in the Roman Empire. And with the temple gone, so too were rites such as the daily sacrifices. And after that the Jews lived under the Gentile laws.
It makes no difference what king of Israel decided to call himself a "messiah" or "anointed one" - the intent of prophecy of the True King, Messiah and Anointed One in scripture is clear. The Jewish messiahs and the Messiah of the prophets were clearly Different.
The reason why they are different is obvious - the Jews did not love or obey their God. They did not want Job's Redeemer* - they were totally preoccupied with earthly concerns.
I did not know the Jewish messiah was not a son of God, but a man like themselves. As I read the bible I have kept that thought in mind - I read Psalm 2 today and encountered another "Son of God" chapter. Here is the Jewish messiah as king, but he is also the Son of God, and he is also one who possesses the Gentiles (thus not solely a Jewish king.)
I won't be surprised to find many such verses. They are interesting because until recently I did not know this.
ps this Babylonian bible writing theory. Recall my thread on the camels which weren't supposed to exist in Abraham's day? Something similar exists with the Jewish alphabet. It was believed that the Jews didn't have their own writing until quite late in their "history." So it surprised "scholars" to find Hebrew texts from as far back as King David.
IMO the Jews were about as smart as any ancient people could get. If others had their scripts, so too could Jews. If others had their holy books, so too could Jews.
* Job 19:25 "As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth"
As for me - meaning this is a very personal belief I know - meaning he didn't just "believe" but had some revelation my - meaning He belongs to me Redeemer - meaning one who redeems, to buy back lives - meaning He is alive now, not "he will live one day" at the last - meaning a long, long way into the future He will take his stand on the earth - meaning He is destined, he will be live amongst us.
Notice, Job (unlike the Jews) has no interest in any earthly king who conquers.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 15, 2014 13:27:44 GMT -5
ps this Babylonian bible writing theory. Recall my thread on the camels which weren't supposed to exist in Abraham's day? Yes, about your thread concerning camels which weren't supposed to exist in Abraham's day.
It is an excellent example of what some of us have been saying, that the bible wasn't written until the Israelites were in exile in Babylonian. That is how they knew about such things as camels in the larger outside world.
Thanks for that one, bert!
Proves my point!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2014 16:35:22 GMT -5
"Why, herein is an amazing thing" (as the once blind man told the Jews) that the Jews, who wandered throughout the fertile crescent, living in Sumer, Syria, Jordan, Caanan and Egypt - and settling in the trade crossroads of the Middle East - had never a camel. And its amazing that such a clever people never developed writing and did not record their history for a thousand years after other nations recorded theirs. And it amazing that such a clever people could be deceived by a few scribes in Babylon with a tale to explain their tribes, their national origin and the reasons for their particular form of worship over the past thousand years. Methink skeptics needs to think through the ramifications of their beliefs. And remember, there's not just the "Babylonian theory" of the Torah, we have to change ALL THE UNMISTAKABLY BABYLONIAN WRITINGS, ie Daniel, Ezekiel etc. to YET ANOTHER LATER DATE. Let's have a bit of Ocams Razor.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 15, 2014 18:45:42 GMT -5
"Why, herein is an amazing thing" (as the once blind man told the Jews) that the Jews, who wandered throughout the fertile crescent, living in Sumer, Syria, Jordan, Caanan and Egypt - and settling in the trade crossroads of the Middle East - had never a camel. And its amazing that such a clever people never developed writing and did not record their history for a thousand years after other nations recorded theirs. And it amazing that such a clever people could be deceived by a few scribes in Babylon with a tale to explain their tribes, their national origin and the reasons for their particular form of worship over the past thousand years. Methink skeptics needs to think through the ramifications of their beliefs. And remember, there's not just the "Babylonian theory" of the Torah, we have to change ALL THE UNMISTAKABLY BABYLONIAN WRITINGS, ie Daniel, Ezekiel etc. to YET ANOTHER LATER DATE. Let's have a bit of Ocams Razor. I'm wondering how the simple comes into play.
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Post by snow on Dec 15, 2014 20:41:59 GMT -5
"Why, herein is an amazing thing" (as the once blind man told the Jews) that the Jews, who wandered throughout the fertile crescent, living in Sumer, Syria, Jordan, Caanan and Egypt - and settling in the trade crossroads of the Middle East - had never a camel. And its amazing that such a clever people never developed writing and did not record their history for a thousand years after other nations recorded theirs. And it amazing that such a clever people could be deceived by a few scribes in Babylon with a tale to explain their tribes, their national origin and the reasons for their particular form of worship over the past thousand years. Methink skeptics needs to think through the ramifications of their beliefs. And remember, there's not just the "Babylonian theory" of the Torah, we have to change ALL THE UNMISTAKABLY BABYLONIAN WRITINGS, ie Daniel, Ezekiel etc. to YET ANOTHER LATER DATE. Let's have a bit of Ocams Razor. Who said they were a clever people? they were a couple of small desert tribes. What makes them on par with people like the Assyrians, Babylonians or the Egyptians?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2014 20:52:44 GMT -5
"Why, herein is an amazing thing" (as the once blind man told the Jews) that the Jews, who wandered throughout the fertile crescent, living in Sumer, Syria, Jordan, Caanan and Egypt - and settling in the trade crossroads of the Middle East - had never a camel. And its amazing that such a clever people never developed writing and did not record their history for a thousand years after other nations recorded theirs. And it amazing that such a clever people could be deceived by a few scribes in Babylon with a tale to explain their tribes, their national origin and the reasons for their particular form of worship over the past thousand years. Methink skeptics needs to think through the ramifications of their beliefs. And remember, there's not just the "Babylonian theory" of the Torah, we have to change ALL THE UNMISTAKABLY BABYLONIAN WRITINGS, ie Daniel, Ezekiel etc. to YET ANOTHER LATER DATE. Let's have a bit of Ocams Razor. Who said they were a clever people? they were a couple of small desert tribes. What makes them on par with people like the Assyrians, Babylonians or the Egyptians? well they had to be clever to have survived what they went through as a people...
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Post by snow on Dec 15, 2014 21:50:53 GMT -5
Who said they were a clever people? they were a couple of small desert tribes. What makes them on par with people like the Assyrians, Babylonians or the Egyptians? well they had to be clever to have survived what they went through as a people... Lots of primitive tribes went through a lot. If they were so clever why did they spend so much time in captivity? Why did they have so many strange diet restrictions? They sound to me like a very primitive, barbaric superstitious people at that time in their evolution. What really puzzles me is people actually believe their God was the only 'right' God.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 15, 2014 22:27:23 GMT -5
Who said they were a clever people? they were a couple of small desert tribes. What makes them on par with people like the Assyrians, Babylonians or the Egyptians? well they had to be clever to have survived what they went through as a people... I always wondered why it took them 40 years to travel something like 120 miles, and approach the Promised Land from the east instead of the west. Maybe they were like Brigham Young -- he didn't know where the Promised Land was until he saw a well watered valley. Just because they wandered in the desert doesn't mean there were no other people who lived there. The wandering story is really scant on details.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2014 22:51:48 GMT -5
How simple? Easy, its The Worlds Greatest Conspiracy PLUS Sheer Dumb Luck
VS
It happened as told.
How smart? The bible says the Jews will be a blessing to the world, and you understand that when you think of the Jewish contribution. The Ethiopian Treasurer in Acts was most likely a Jew as they prized for their economic acumen.
How far from Egypt to the promised land? 40 years symbolized a life time. But for 38 of those years the Jews didn't go anywhere.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 15, 2014 23:12:13 GMT -5
How simple? Easy, its The Worlds Greatest Conspiracy PLUS Sheer Dumb Luck VS It happened as told. How smart? The bible says the Jews will be a blessing to the world, and you understand that when you think of the Jewish contribution. The Ethiopian Treasurer in Acts was most likely a Jew as they prized for their economic acumen. How far from Egypt to the promised land? 40 years symbolized a life time. But for 38 of those years the Jews didn't go anywhere. Too much fantasy for me, Bert.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2014 23:50:16 GMT -5
well they had to be clever to have survived what they went through as a people... I always wondered why it took them 40 years to travel something like 120 miles, and approach the Promised Land from the east instead of the west. Maybe they were like Brigham Young -- he didn't know where the Promised Land was until he saw a well watered valley. Just because they wandered in the desert doesn't mean there were no other people who lived there. The wandering story is really scant on details. ummmm they were required to take forty years so that the older population would die off that sinned against God cause they were not going to see the promise land... there are poeple mentioned in the exodus story in the desert, isreal fought against them...
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 15, 2014 23:59:06 GMT -5
I always wondered why it took them 40 years to travel something like 120 miles, and approach the Promised Land from the east instead of the west. Maybe they were like Brigham Young -- he didn't know where the Promised Land was until he saw a well watered valley. Just because they wandered in the desert doesn't mean there were no other people who lived there. The wandering story is really scant on details. ummmm they were required to take forty years so that the older population would die off that sinned against God cause they were not going to see the promise land... Isn't there just something a little weird about that whole story? And that's where Moses wife circumcised him.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 16, 2014 1:59:44 GMT -5
well they had to be clever to have survived what they went through as a people... Lots of primitive tribes went through a lot. If they were so clever why did they spend so much time in captivity? Why did they have so many strange diet restrictions? They sound to me like a very primitive, barbaric superstitious people at that time in their evolution. What really puzzles me is people actually believe their God was the only 'right' God. Yes it puzzles me also that people TODAY still think that that same tribal god of one small group of people was the only "right" god or any god at all!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 3:04:13 GMT -5
Quote - "Isn't there just something a little weird about that whole story?"
So how should a God behave, and how should a holy book be written? - given that God has given free agency to all mankind.
And... seeing how the bible seemed "weird" to the Jews also, why didn't they come up with something "less weird"?
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 16, 2014 3:46:03 GMT -5
Quote - " Isn't there just something a little weird about that whole story?"So how should a God behave, and how should a holy book be written? - given that God has given free agency to all mankind.How should a god behave. Well, first of all, the fact that he has given mankind free agency has nothing really to do with answering this question because ALL gods allow free agency. The majority of gods answer humans' requests in their times of need, according to their specialization -- and mostly just hang around and see what's going on. But the god of Abraham got schizophrenic, jealous, spiteful, subject to violent temper tantrums. Like punishing HIS whole nation by making everyone stay out in the desert until all the sinners died. What parent locks all his kids outside until the one that gives him a problem dies? Crazy story, when you think about it. Of course, if you listen to some of the cases that come to Judge Judy's courtroom, you'll hear a lot that are just as crazy. if you know what I mean.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 16, 2014 3:50:27 GMT -5
Quote - " Isn't there just something a little weird about that whole story?"So how should a God behave, and how should a holy book be written? - given that God has given free agency to all mankind.
And... seeing how the bible seemed "weird" to the Jews also, why didn't they come up with something "less weird"?Who said the Bible seemed weird to the Jews? Jews are most certainly no less enamored with the Exodus story than you are, believe me. Where do you get all this stuff about Jews? You got a Palestinian living with you or something?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 3:51:03 GMT -5
So have you read that amazing "secular" book "The War of the Jews" and pondered how God could: 1 - have allowed it to happen 2 - said it would happen 3 - herded more and more people into the Roman meat-grinder for good measure 4 - and cast the Jews out of their homeland for 2,000 years.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 4:00:11 GMT -5
This from Wikipedia: It is astonishing WHAT IS MISSING (ie Isaiah 53) I suspect this list was created by a Jew.
Many of the scriptural requirements concerning the Messiah, what he will do, and what will be done during his reign are located in the Book of Isaiah, although requirements are mentioned by other prophets as well. Views on whether Hebrew Bible passages are Messianic may vary from and among scholars of ancient Israel looking at their meaning in original context and from and among rabbinical scholars.
Isaiah 1:26: "And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City." Some Jews[9] interpret this to mean that the Sanhedrin will be re-established."(Isaiah 1:26) Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4) The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17) He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18) The "spirit of the Lord" will be upon him, and he will have a "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2) Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4) Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9) He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10) All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12) Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8) There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8) All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19) The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11) He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7) Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5) The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23) The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55) Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9) The people of Israel will have direct access to the Torah through their minds and Torah study will become the study of the wisdom of the heart (Jeremiah 31:33)[10] He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4) He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 4:40:56 GMT -5
Quote - "Actually, nothing was written until the return from their exile in Babylon."
And remember, anything actually claimed as having been written DURING Babylon was written long AFTER Babylon. No? After all, if Daniel spoke of the Alexander the Great then clearly that "proves" the book of Daniel was written after Alexander.
So the thinking goes.
But then Daniel speaks of Rome, "cutting off" even the Messiah. So maybe we need to re-date ALL of the Old Testament to somewhere after the Jew's second return to Israel and their seizure of Jerusalem and the temple mount.
Let's say the bible was dated after AD 1968 to be intellectually consistent. No?
thus:
Isaiah 11:11 "In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean."
Dated 1948
Luke 21:24 "They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."
Dated 1967.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 7:12:23 GMT -5
In today's Jerusalem Post www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Culture/Ancient-rock-adds-evidence-of-King-Davids-existence-384826 I highlighted how many "scholars" more or less have ignored this. Some of these "scholars" could be ones whose skepticism is being copy and pasted on the TMB.
NEW YORK — Dimly lit, the stone slab, or stele, doesn’t look particularly noteworthy, especially when compared to the more lavish sphinxes, jewelry and cauldrons one encounters en route to the room where it is installed. Indeed, in a Twitter post this fall, art journalist Lee Rosenbaum described the nearly 13-by-16 inch c. 830 BCE rock, which resembles an aardvark or elephant, as “homely.” What’s significant about this stone — on view at the Metropolitan Museum of Art as part of its “Assyria to Iberia at the Dawn of the Classical Age” exhibit running through Jan. 4 — is its inscription: “the earliest extra-biblical reference to the House of David.” “There is no doubt that the inscription is one of the most important artifacts ever found in relation to the Bible,” Eran Arie, curator of Israelite and Persian periods at the Israel Museum, wrote in the exhibit catalog. As is to be expected with a rock nearly three millennia old, the slab is missing considerable portions, and Arie’s translation of the remaining 13 lines of text is full of ellipses and bracketed additions. What is clear is that the Aram-Damascene king Hazael brags of having killed 70 kings, including of Israel and of the “House of David.” (The round number, scholars agree, is probably exaggerated, although Hazael did have a reputation for being ruthless and successful.) The breaks in the stone neither obstruct nor obscure the “bytdvd,” or House of David, inscription, which remains “absolutely intact and clear,” said Ira Spar, professor of history and ancient studies at Ramapo College in New Jersey and a research Assyriologist at the Metropolitan Museum. Epigraphers and biblical historians agree almost unanimously that the letters “bytdvd” refer to the House of King David, according to Spar. “While it is clear that David was king of Israel, the archaeological evidence for the extent of his kingdom remains unclear,” he said. Despite its “extraordinary inscription,” the rock, a seventh century BCE “Annals of Sennacherib” that tells of a siege of Jerusalem mentioned in the Bible, and a 10th century BCE “Taanach Cult Stand” that may feature a depiction of the Jewish God, have been “curiously” ignored in reviews of the Met’s exhibit, notes the Biblical Archaeology Society website.
Steven Fine, a professor of Jewish history and director of the Center for Israel Studies at Yeshiva University, agrees that the lack of attention is curious.
“It’s astonishing how little the Jewish press has noticed it,” he said.Although the inscription has received scant attention, Fine says he has observed widespread public interest in biblical-era artifacts. When he led tours as curator of the University of Southern California’s archaeological collections in the 1980s, Fine reported hearing many “oohs” and “aahs” when he showed an oil lamp from the First Temple period. “Why? Because they heard about King David,” he said. “People care about this stuff. They don’t care about the Middle Ages that much. They care about biblical history … and it’s part of the grappling with secularization that makes this so important to some people.” Even without this latest piece of evidence, Rabbi David Wolpe, author of the 2014 book “David: The Divided Heart,” said in an interview that there was near-unanimous consensus among scholars that David existed. But Wolpe, of the Conservative Sinai Temple in Los Angeles, added that “the size and scope of his kingdom were probably far less than was once thought.” In the catalog for the “Assyria to Iberia” exhibit, the Israel Museum’s Arie wrote that the inscription’s matter-of-fact invocation of David’s name just some 150 years after his reign amounts to a “clear indication that the ‘House of David’ was known throughout the region and that the king’s reputation was not a literary invention of a much later period.” This, he adds, “clearly validates the biblical description of a figure named David becoming the founder of the dynasty of Judahite kings in Jerusalem.” Fine also thinks that most scholars accept a historical David, but he notes that some — those who align themselves with what is known as the Copenhagen School of biblical interpretation — don’t agree that David is a historical shoo-in. “These things go in a range,” he said. Although archaeologists tend broadly to be uncomfortable with text, Fine says, some might say that if there is a King David, he is “just a name” about whom we don’t know anything, while others would view David through the “eyes of Jewish history” and law.
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