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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 19, 2014 18:27:20 GMT -5
Lyn Sherlock - The Way of the Cross (Hymn 18) - Rochedale, 2009
Sometimes we understand why Jonah ran away. I know why he found it so hard to deliver the message God gave him to deliver and I also know why many of those old prophets started their books, or some of the chapters by saying, "The burden of the word of the Lord." I hope you people understand that, as it is for me and my fellow workers, they say what they have to say because it is what the Lord has asked them to say and I hope you appreciate that.
There is a chapter in Ezekiel that speaks about the watchmen, chapter 33, and it says about the watchmen if they see the danger coming and they don't sound the warning, the people's blood will be on their heads. It says if the watchman sees the danger coming and tells them and they do not heed the warning, the blood will be on their own heads. I hope you understand that sometimes that is why there are warnings sounded, because we, as watchmen, do not want your blood on our heads. I hope you parents understand also that you are watchmen and you need to sound warnings for your children often. You do not want their blood to be on your head.
That hymn we sang had been on my mind the last few days and I've tried and tried to get it out of my mind, but I cannot. The way of God is the way of the cross and that is how it is. It is not a way that people can have a nice time with everyone else. This is the way of the cross and if we want to get home to God, we need to walk the way of the cross. We understand what the way of the cross is; it is the way that Jesus walked. Jesus knew every step He took was taking Him closer to the cross. The way of the cross is a dying way and it is this dying way that leads to life - dying to our own selves.
The third verse of that hymn says, "I bid farewell to the things of the world, to walk in them never more." When we sing these things, do we really mean them? It tells us about the time that Jesus was about to be crucified and I believe it was the custom that the one being crucified was to carry the cross. I'm sure it was heavy, and we know it was for Jesus. It became too much for Him and they compelled another man called Simon to carry it for Him because Jesus was so weak. You would think anyone looking on at the scene of the crucifixion would know who was dying. They would not have to ask questions, they would be able to see clearly who was going to die. They were dying because they were bearing the cross. Sometimes we think it is all about what is on the inside and the outside does not matter, but we know it does matter. If we are dying, you can see it. We often visit hospitals and nursing homes and you know when someone is dying and you see it.
You know, it grieves me when I see so much worldliness amongst our friends; you know, we can see it. What do you see when you look in the mirror? Do you see someone that is dying to self? Do you see someone that is walking the way of the cross, or do you see someone that is fitting into the ways of the world? It may only be a little bit of fitting in, but it grows. What about you parents? Do you parents teach your children it is the way of the cross? This year, and it is not only this year, but sometimes we see photos of gathering of the young ones, young friends, and it makes us so sad because it is hard to see signs of Godliness and it is hard to see signs of the people walking in the way of the cross. Have we learned as children that it is the way of the cross?
I learned something when I was small in primary school, my age would have been around six, seven, or eight. It was only my sister and I at school at that stage and later some other friends' children came to the school, but at this stage it was just my sister and I. This school would have a fancy dress ball every year. There were 1200 children at the primary school and they practiced for weeks and weeks for the fancy dress ball. My sister and I ,out of 1200 children, sat on the bank of the oval and watched them because we were not going. You know, that is only fancy dress but we have to be careful, don't we, and at all times we must live the life of the child of God as someone who is walking the way of the cross. It is the way of the cross that leads home.
There was a King in the Old Testament and his name was Jeroboam; we read of him in the first Kings chapter 12, before and after that chapter also, and when you read about him later on, you read about the sin that he sinned and how he caused Israel to sin. And do you know what it was? Chapter 12, verse 28, "Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, 'It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.'" He said it is too much for you, it is a bit too far, you don't have to try quite so hard. Something is closer and easier to worship so just worship that. That is not the way of the cross. It is never too far, it is never too hard to walk the way of the cross. And we know what the end of it is. I hope we would understand more clearly, like we were singing, it is the way of the cross that leads home.
I also have noticed this year, it seems to be a thing for people to go out. I do not know where they go. We stay in homes sometimes for a week, and we see the young people are out every night. They do not seem to value home. Do we really understand what home is, or do we just want to be out and about, enjoying the pleasures and places of this world. Remember, it is the way of the cross that leads home. I do hope that we not only remember it is the way of the cross, but that we learn to love it because it is a way of joy, peace, and holiness. It is the only way that leads home to Jesus.
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Post by emy on Nov 19, 2014 18:29:52 GMT -5
Emy, denim skirts are the NORM now ! So what changed ? Mans ideas maybe ! Nothing changed here. We have worn them ever since they came on the market. Is there something about 'denim' in Australian culture - or was there ever?
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 19, 2014 18:42:31 GMT -5
I will find the note that I read recently where a worker said that denim was the devils material !! he was an old worker & it would have been said when denim first was worn.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 19, 2014 18:46:09 GMT -5
Eldon Tenniswood 1 Timothy 2: 8-9 - we know that this is a trial. There are certain streaks of vanity in women. The thing that attracts people the most to God's Way is to have a good conscience towards God. Diamond rings are costly array. Humble people will always obey. [Milltown WA Conv 8/28/88] REF #167
Tharold Sylvester Ornamental rings are superfluous and are among the ornaments that should be put off. There is a reason for this. The end toward which the Lord has always labored is to make His people different. We are intended to be different in spirit, different in appearance, different in our manner of life. This is what makes us a light in the world around us. If we were like the world, which is living in darkness, there would be no light. Our only hope of being a light is by being different
Jack Carroll - We gave you four words last year to guide you in connection with your purchases during the year -- economy, simplicity, modesty, and neatness. What the scripture teaches about the dress question is covered by these four words, and we will have no complaint if the daughters of Zion give evidence that in all their purchases during the year they do it as unto the Lord, remembering that if they are to have a testimony of value it will be well for them to be guided by these four words. We don't want to make rules or laws for God's children that would bring them into unnecessary bondage. We believe we can safely trust our sisters in Christ in this matter, which is such a serious matter, as far as they are concerned, if they will be guided by these four words. If they do this, it will result in their having a testimony for God that will be of value. We would like our sisters here to look upon the sister workers as a safe guide in this matter. There is no need for an absolute uniformity. We know this is a very serious question, and we believe that in some cases at least there could be a little improvement in this matter.
We don't like to see any wearing stockings so closely like having no stockings on at all, and we feel perfectly sure that when you buy your next pair if you remember these four words, especially the word modesty, you will be more careful not only with regard to material but also with regard to color
William Lewis - A professing girl wore her hair up when in meeting and when she expected to see workers, but she wore it down going to work. She was still under the power of the will of the Gentiles. I didn't talk to her but I prayed for her. One day, she wore it up to work, she got the victory and she never wore it down again.
Howard Mooney - Edgewood Convention - 1970's - "Isn't it a marvelous thing to think that right in the midst of this sin and decay, God is able to raise up and establish one of the best crops of young people that we have ever known in our day and generation. That is not only true here in New Mexico and Texas but every place that we have had the privilege of going to Convention this year, you see that same wonderful evidence.
Now I wouldn't want to give you the impression that all of our young people are all that they should be. Sometimes our hearts ache when we see some of our young folks have such a glorious privilege and are not making use of it. We would like to think that for some of you young people who have come to this convention that haven't been too Christlike, haven't been too separated in your life, the effect of this Convention would send you forth, that you Sisters would be looking more like Sister Workers, and you Brothers would have more of the spirit of a Brother Worker. That is one of the purposes for which we come to Convention is that God would help us to see the worthwhileness of that taking place."
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Post by open mind on Nov 19, 2014 20:46:28 GMT -5
Just out of interest , I visited the site : open bible.info, and noticed that they are 88 Bible verses about Women Dressing. There must be something very spiritually significantly and important with respect to this subject. ps. Diverting a bit, I just read that the Anglican church leaders have just voted to appoint female Bishops; and it is predicted that the first one will be ordained next year. Spiritually significant or period significant?
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Post by open mind on Nov 19, 2014 20:50:25 GMT -5
Tom, where do you live ? Would you like me to post some notes where workers have spoke on these things? And now I'm not Tom, but I've never heard any specifics like that either, other than modesty (which everyone has their own definition for). Post notes if you wish, but I'll take your word for it, I'm just curious where and what year you heard any or all of those 3 specific things preached. I live in Midwest of U.S. and haven't heard any of that in the 20+ years that I can remember. Obviously never heard Australian workers...especially Clyde Mc. Although I do remenber an American worker at a convention one year saying look to the woman workers for an example of dress and actions...
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Post by open mind on Nov 19, 2014 20:52:51 GMT -5
Are denim jeans allowed in meetings outside of Aus. Last time I went, they weren't (within last 12 months)..
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2014 22:16:22 GMT -5
Emy, denim skirts are the NORM now ! So what changed ? Mans ideas maybe ! Frankly, I have never heard anything about denim. It can look good if it's done properly. Being devil's advocate I would say the problem might lie in the association of denim with the hippy era. At one stage denim, like beards, had no social meaning. During and after the sixties it was associated with the excesses of that era. And in this case the "man's ideas" was the moral decrepitude of the sixties --- not the fabric.
And like beards, the denim association has worn away due to its widespread use across all sectors of society.
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Post by emy on Nov 19, 2014 23:15:13 GMT -5
Are denim jeans allowed in meetings outside of Aus. Last time I went, they weren't (within last 12 months).. Yes, in more rural areas at least, jeans are often worn for g. mtg. or Bible study, but not nearly so often for Sun. AM meetings. But it's not unknown and jeans are very frequently seen at convention, too.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 19, 2014 23:16:08 GMT -5
Emy, denim skirts are the NORM now ! So what changed ? Mans ideas maybe ! Frankly, I have never heard anything about denim. It can look good if it's done properly. Being devil's advocate I would say the problem might lie in the association of denim with the hippy era. At one stage denim, like beards, had no social meaning. During and after the sixties it was associated with the excesses of that era. And in this case the "man's ideas" was the moral decrepitude of the sixties --- not the fabric.
And like beards, the denim association has worn away due to its widespread use across all sectors of society.Still doesn't change the fact that it was preached against Bert ! Also Bert, have you never heard Clyde Mackay preach? Or Mr Alcorn back in the 70's ! Just proves workers have made rules of their own !
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 19, 2014 23:18:23 GMT -5
Quote - "Where did Paul say that Women must dress like the sister workers Bert?"Excellent point. Where does it say a person " Professing Godliness" should not do narcotics? It doesn't, but even the most cursory reading of scripture gives you a sense for what the requirements of the Kingdom are. There are many places where " works based belief" mention our appearance. The most commonly quoted one is this: "... women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works" New Living Translation "And I want women to be modest in their appearance. They should wear decent and appropriate clothing and not draw attention to themselves by the way they fix their hair or by wearing gold or pearls or expensive clothes. For women who claim to be devoted to God should make themselves attractive by the good things they do." These both read that women should focus upon " works based belief" and not dress like ungodly people. The very opposite of what this thread was created to achieve. Bert, what was modest apparel in Paul's day? Also you have not given me the Chapter & verse where it says women must dress like the sister workers, because there is no such verse ! But how many times over the years has it been preached ? Therefore it is a man-made rule. Do you honestly think that God is going to say "Well you are going to hell because you smoke" ! This is an example of what causes Mental Illness, people try to be follow man-made rules, they take priority over more important things like people abusing children. Lets keep focusing on the rules so then we don't have to look at the major issues like CSA ! You didn't answer this one Bert
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2014 23:36:35 GMT -5
Bert, what was modest apparel in Paul's day? Also you have not given me the Chapter & verse where it says women must dress like the sister workers, because there is no such verse ! But how many times over the years has it been preached ? Therefore it is a man-made rule. Do you honestly think that God is going to say "Well you are going to hell because you smoke" ! This is an example of what causes Mental Illness, people try to be follow man-made rules, they take priority over more important things like people abusing children. Lets keep focusing on the rules so then we don't have to look at the major issues like CSA ! You didn't answer this one Bert the whole world is made up of man made rules not just religious ones, does that mean the whole world is mentally ill from following man made rules? i suppose that would explain alot of behavior though wouldn't it...
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Post by rational on Nov 19, 2014 23:40:43 GMT -5
Just as the cold does not cause a person to suffer from a cold following a set of rules does not produce mental illness. Although it might be comforting to have something to blame!
The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves, that we are underlings. Shakespeare - Julius Caesar
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 0:15:39 GMT -5
Good point Bert, lets start with the things that are scriptural. 1. Chapter & verse that says : women must dress like the sister workers 2. Chapter & verse that says; Women must wear their hair in a BUN ? 3. Where is denim material mentioned or that denim skirts cannot be worn ? There is a start for you Bert ! As to mental illness from work based belief system, you only have to look at the amount of workers that have nerve issues to answer the question ! I'm not Bert but whoever said that women should/should not do any if these 3 things? I have never heard that preached. Where do you get these ideas from? Dress modestly -yes. agree
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 20, 2014 1:50:17 GMT -5
Emy, denim skirts are the NORM now ! So what changed ? Mans ideas maybe ! Nothing changed here. We have worn them ever since they came on the market. Is there something about 'denim' in Australian culture - or was there ever? We have two Apostolic churches in our town.
The women, of course, can't wear pants.
When I started to see the Apostolic Church girls wearing denim skirts, I figured it was because they looked like denim jeans & they were just trying to get as close as possible to "Worldly " clothes while not transgressing their imposed dress restrictions.
Would that be what the "professing" girls were also doing & the worker could see through that ploy?
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 20, 2014 1:53:36 GMT -5
Good point Bert, lets start with the things that are scriptural. 1. Chapter & verse that says : women must dress like the sister workers 2. Chapter & verse that says; Women must wear their hair in a BUN ? 3. Where is denim material mentioned or that denim skirts cannot be worn ? There is a start for you Bert ! As to mental illness from work based belief system, you only have to look at the amount of workers that have nerve issues to answer the question ! I'm not Bert but whoever said that women should/should not do any if these 3 things? I have never heard that preached. Where do you get these ideas from? Dress modestly -yes. You never heard those things preached, Tom?
How long have you been "professing?"
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 20, 2014 2:23:30 GMT -5
I'm not Bert but whoever said that women should/should not do any if these 3 things? I have never heard that preached. Where do you get these ideas from? Dress modestly -yes. You never heard those things preached, Tom?
How long have you been "professing?" I am starting to think SOME men have selective hearing !
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 20, 2014 3:55:45 GMT -5
You never heard those things preached, Tom?
How long have you been "professing?" I am starting to think SOME men have selective hearing ! I think that you may well be right.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 5:05:19 GMT -5
Emy, denim skirts are the NORM now ! So what changed ? Mans ideas maybe ! Yes a lot of the man made impositions/ restrictions in the fellowship have changed over time, there is no denying that. It is said that God is the same today, yesterday and for ever, He is unchanging; so it is reasonable to assume that those man made restrictions were not inspired by God hence the reason and inspiration for changing them.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 5:29:34 GMT -5
Quote "Still doesn't change the fact that it was preached against Bert ! Also Bert, have you never heard Clyde Mackay preach? Or Mr Alcorn back in the 70's ! Just proves workers have made rules of their own !"
You can say (as everyone here does) that Paul, Peter et al were men who "made" these "man made rules." Like when Paul had that gathering in Jerusalem about Jewish customs. The workers then had to interpret God's will as best they could. And having done so, church members were called upon to accept (recall Peter struggling with this rule?) And the critical verse here was "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you" Heb 13:17
NOT Don't obey
OR
Obey those if their views happen to coincide with yours. Obey those if you feel like it. Obey those for today, but no guarantees of tomorrow. Obey those if they prove chapter and verse, in ten translations, taking on board: - Greek and Hebrew translations - Jewish cultural norms at the time - Roman influence in scripture - precise eisegesis by a majority of scholars - contemporary ideas on the matter - what my friends all think - etc..
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 5:38:03 GMT -5
Quote - "Bert, what was modest apparel in Paul's day? Also you have not given me the Chapter & verse where it says women must dress like the sister workers, because there is no such verse ! But how many times over the years has it been preached ? Therefore it is a man-made rule. Do you honestly think that God is going to say "Well you are going to hell because you smoke" !
This is an example of what causes Mental Illness, people try to be follow man-made rules, they take priority over more important things like people abusing children. Lets keep focusing on the rules so then we don't have to look at the major issues like CSA !"
Modest apparel is the apparel which is considered modest by your community standards. The bible speaks of modesty WITHOUT DEFINING how it was to be expressed. In Abraham's day modesty was a woman covering her face. It wasn't so in Jesus' day and there is no record of modest women wearing face coverings, even in the presence of our Lord.
"Modesty" is God's rule. The face covering was man's rule, and it once a woman's expression of modesty.
There is no major institution I know of which condones children being abused. Some use it as an excuse, in the same way some talk of "police corruption" to frame their attitude toward police going about their lawful business.
But I think you already know all of this.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 20, 2014 5:38:20 GMT -5
Quote "Still doesn't change the fact that it was preached against Bert ! Also Bert, have you never heard Clyde Mackay preach? Or Mr Alcorn back in the 70's ! Just proves workers have made rules of their own !" You can say (as everyone here does) that Paul, Peter et al were men who "made" these "man made rules." Like when Paul had that gathering in Jerusalem about Jewish customs. The workers then had to interpret God's will as best they could. And having done so, church members were called upon to accept (recall Peter struggling with this rule?) And the critical verse here was "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you" Heb 13:17
NOT Don't obey
OR
Obey those if their views happen to coincide with yours. Obey those if you feel like it. Obey those for today, but no guarantees of tomorrow. Obey those if they prove chapter and verse, in ten translations, taking on board: - Greek and Hebrew translations - Jewish cultural norms at the time - Roman influence in scripture - precise eisegesis by a majority of scholars - contemporary ideas on the matter - what my friends all think - etc..The workers are not Paul ! The workers have not seen Jesus ! Obey those that have the rule over you .... so obey the workers even if they are having affairs with married women or abusing children ? The workers are human Bert the same as everyone else ! They are NOT Apostles !
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 20, 2014 5:47:26 GMT -5
Quote - "Bert, what was modest apparel in Paul's day? Also you have not given me the Chapter & verse where it says women must dress like the sister workers, because there is no such verse ! But how many times over the years has it been preached ? Therefore it is a man-made rule. Do you honestly think that God is going to say "Well you are going to hell because you smoke" ! This is an example of what causes Mental Illness, people try to be follow man-made rules, they take priority over more important things like people abusing children. Lets keep focusing on the rules so then we don't have to look at the major issues like CSA !" Modest apparel is the apparel which is considered modest by your community standards. The bible speaks of modesty WITHOUT DEFINING how it was to be expressed. In Abraham's day modesty was a woman covering her face. It wasn't so in Jesus' day and there is no record of modest women wearing face coverings, even in the presence of our Lord.
"Modesty" is God's rule. The face covering was man's rule, and it once a woman's expression of modesty.
There is no major institution I know of which condones children being abused. Some use it as an excuse, in the same way some talk of "police corruption" to frame their attitude toward police going about their lawful business.Yes modesty is God's rule ! But what you think is modest someone else may not, the workers have their own man-made rules, then use the verse about modesty to justify their rules ! Nude coloured stocking were considered NOT modest at one time, but now they are considered modest. (Note the sermon by Jack Carroll in regard to this) telling women what coloured stocking to buy ! But of course there are "No Man-made Rules" ! Jack Carroll - We gave you four words last year to guide you in connection with your purchases during the year -- economy, simplicity, modesty, and neatness. What the scripture teaches about the dress question is covered by these four words, and we will have no complaint if the daughters of Zion give evidence that in all their purchases during the year they do it as unto the Lord, remembering that if they are to have a testimony of value it will be well for them to be guided by these four words. We don't want to make rules or laws for God's children that would bring them into unnecessary bondage. We believe we can safely trust our sisters in Christ in this matter, which is such a serious matter, as far as they are concerned, if they will be guided by these four words. If they do this, it will result in their having a testimony for God that will be of value. We would like our sisters here to look upon the sister workers as a safe guide in this matter. There is no need for an absolute uniformity. We know this is a very serious question, and we believe that in some cases at least there could be a little improvement in this matter. We don't like to see any wearing stockings so closely like having no stockings on at all, and we feel perfectly sure that when you buy your next pair if you remember these four words, especially the word modesty, you will be more careful not only with regard to material but also with regard to color
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 5:49:55 GMT -5
Quote - "The workers are not Paul ! The workers have not seen Jesus ! Obey those that have the rule over you .... so obey the workers even if they are having affairs with married women or abusing children ? The workers are human Bert the same as everyone else ! They are NOT Apostles !"
The standard of God's kingdom must be held by all. If any person preaching God's word is not keeping the law then the judgement will be more severe for them than it will be for those didn't know the law. Paul wrote about this, didn't he? And so too did Jesus. And for anyone pointing a finger at someone elses faults and using them to justify their own ..... well, Jesus talked about that attempted loophole, too.
Quote - "The workers are not Paul ! The workers have not seen Jesus" As if we don't all know that. What is your point?
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 20, 2014 5:53:28 GMT -5
Quote - "The workers are not Paul ! The workers have not seen Jesus ! Obey those that have the rule over you .... so obey the workers even if they are having affairs with married women or abusing children ? The workers are human Bert the same as everyone else ! They are NOT Apostles !" The standard of God's kingdom must be held by all. If any person preaching God's word is not keeping the law then the judgement will be more severe for them than it will be for those didn't know the law. Paul wrote about this, didn't he? And so too did Jesus. And for anyone pointing a finger at someone elses faults and using them to justify their own ..... well, Jesus talked about that attempted loophole, too.
Quote - "The workers are not Paul ! The workers have not seen Jesus" As if we don't all know that. What is your point?Stop comparing the workers to Paul ! And the workers are NOT Apostles !
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 6:02:25 GMT -5
Here are some to add to your list Bert: Women have to wear their hair in a Bun Women cannot cut their hair Women cannot wear make-up Women cannot wear jewellery Women have to look to the women workers for their example of how to dress Hypothetical - who is wrong? Dissident - "Why can't I wear a midriff top and mini skirt?" Church elder - "Because it's not modest" Dissident - "Are midriff tops and skimpy skirts mentioned in the bible?" Church elder - "Its dressing respectfully" Dissident - "You can't answer me. And oh, weren't you caught evading your taxes? Church elder - "Is tax evasion mentioned in the bible?"
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Post by blacksheep on Nov 20, 2014 6:12:49 GMT -5
And the critical verse here was " Obey them that have the rule over you... Let's not forget that the authority that The Workers wield over The Friends is granted to them by The Friends. The Workers have no authority over anyone else. People all over the world also grant authority to numerous and varied self appointed spiritual advisers who they believe to be God anointed...no difference, just a different set of rules (interpretation of God's will). Parents have authority over their children. If the parents have, in turn, have granted The Workers authority, well, --it rolls down hill, doesn't it? In effect, many of The Friends have inherited The Workers' authority over them. There are "authorities" in our live who we have little choice but to submit to. In the case of spiritual advisers, we do have the freedom to decide who we believe is legitimate. It seems to me that many Christian spiritual advisers base their rules on some of the OT while ignoring other portions of the OT. I repudiate The Workers of The Friends. Most are well-meaning, I'm sure, but I certainly would not allow their interpretations to have any bearing in my life.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 20, 2014 6:15:09 GMT -5
Well before you even start you have judged the person as Dissident because they dared to question or have their own opinion ! You nicely avoided what I said Bert, so you must believe workers are Apostles ?
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