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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 6:20:37 GMT -5
Growing up in the fellowship it was sort if a taboo for people to adorn themselves in jewellery of precious metals like gold and silver, except perhaps marriage rings. No necklaces, chains, bangles, not even gold teeth; and yet there is much written in scriptures about these precious metals, and gold in particular Provers 20: Therei is gold and a multitude of rubies: but the lips of knowledge are a precious jewel. PSM: 105: 36 He smite also the first born in their land, and the chief of their strength. 37- He brought them forth also with silver and gold: and there was not one feeble person among their tribe.
Gold in mentioned many times in the Bible, Solomon had a great association with gold, we read about gold in the temples, cities paved with gold etc.it seems to me that gold is very much a part of the God's kingdom, so why the apparent previous restrictions? Just some thoughts going through my mind.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 7:24:59 GMT -5
Here are some to add to your list Bert: Women have to wear their hair in a Bun Women cannot cut their hair Women cannot wear make-up Women cannot wear jewellery Women have to look to the women workers for their example of how to dress I remember the women workers telling us we should dress and act like the royal family. Until Charles and Carmilla and their royal romps.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 7:51:55 GMT -5
Here are some to add to your list Bert: Women have to wear their hair in a Bun Women cannot cut their hair Women cannot wear make-up Women cannot wear jewellery Women have to look to the women workers for their example of how to dress I remember the women workers telling us we should dress and act like the royal family. Until Charles and Carmilla and their royal romps. Princess Margaret was also a member of the Royal family and sister of the her Majesty, the Queen. Also where would you get the money to afford to buy the clothes to dress like them? See, you cannot always follow the advice of workers- shepherds misleading the sheep.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 8:01:41 GMT -5
There are a lot of people who are drawn to these cults because they have mental problems. They are accepted automatically and don't have to put out too much effort to make friends. I met a lot of women who had nervous break downs in the meetings. In fact there weren't many older women who were healthy and happy and normal. So glad to be out of it. Happy happy happy! Happy was a dirty word you couldn't be happy you had be to joyful and content. Now I'm content and happy!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 8:36:05 GMT -5
Quote - "I remember the women workers telling us we should dress and act like the royal family. Until Charles and Carmilla and their royal romps." That's a quote, that's a REAL QUOTE!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 8:38:06 GMT -5
Well before you even start you have judged the person as Dissident because they dared to question or have their own opinion ! You nicely avoided what I said Bert, so you must believe workers are Apostles ? Speak of Avoiding:
Q - Who is wrong?
Dissident - "Why can't I wear a midriff top and mini skirt?" Church elder - "Because it's not modest." Dissident - "Are midriff tops and skimpy skirts mentioned in the bible?" Church elder - "It's about dressing respectfully." Dissident - "You can't answer me. And oh, weren't you caught evading your taxes? Church elder - "Is tax evasion mentioned in the bible?"
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Post by blacksheep on Nov 20, 2014 11:10:15 GMT -5
There are a lot of people who are drawn to these cults because they have mental problems. I agree....and taking it further, what about those of us who are third, fourth and fifth generation "truthers"? Go back to the first "case" on your mother's side of the family to join the cult, and the first "case" on your father's side of the family to join the cult. Then reflect on the self-imposed social isolation that the cult encourages.... What are the chances of being born without a similar mental affliction, with that genetic make-up? The gene pool is rather concentrated. Those who escape are fortunate; those who remain are apparently where they need to be. (Keep an eye on the children and grandchildren, sometimes a particular "trait" skips a generation or two. Not a whole lot can be done, though.)
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Post by Mary on Nov 20, 2014 15:04:38 GMT -5
Here are some to add to your list Bert: ' Women have to wear their hair in a Bun Women cannot cut their hair Women cannot wear make-up Women cannot wear jewellery Women have to look to the women workers for their example of how to dress Hypothetical - who is wrong? Dissident - "Why can't I wear a midriff top and mini skirt?" Church elder - "Because it's not modest" Dissident - "Are midriff tops and skimpy skirts mentioned in the bible?" Church elder - "Its dressing respectfully" Dissident - "You can't answer me. And oh, weren't you caught evading your taxes? Church elder - "Is tax evasion mentioned in the bible?"Bert I believe that tax evasion is mentioned in the Bible. What does the verse Render unto Caesar what is Caesars mean to you? Matthew 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s. I have heard the dressing like the Queen talk too but that was the days before I started to question. Now, the Queen wears expensive jewellery so how does the worker work that one out except their normal, take a bit here and take a bit there. So dress like the Queen but leave off the jewellery and live or not live in a castle like the Queen? Must be quite confusing which is why the workers says don't question as there is no rationale for what they preach.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 20, 2014 17:12:15 GMT -5
Well before you even start you have judged the person as Dissident because they dared to question or have their own opinion ! You nicely avoided what I said Bert, so you must believe workers are Apostles ? Speak of Avoiding:
Q - Who is wrong?
Dissident - "Why can't I wear a midriff top and mini skirt?" Church elder - "Because it's not modest." Dissident - "Are midriff tops and skimpy skirts mentioned in the bible?" Church elder - "It's about dressing respectfully." Dissident - "You can't answer me. And oh, weren't you caught evading your taxes? Church elder - "Is tax evasion mentioned in the bible?" Bert I believe I answered you ! I said as above you have judged the person by calling them dissident. Also to be fair I believe I asked you FIRST "do you believe the workers are Apostles ? As to who I believe is wrong in your above "story" the Church Elder !
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 20, 2014 17:19:22 GMT -5
There are a lot of people who are drawn to these cults because they have mental problems. I agree....and taking it further, what about those of us who are third, fourth and fifth generation "truthers"? Go back to the first "case" on your mother's side of the family to join the cult, and the first "case" on your father's side of the family to join the cult. Then reflect on the self-imposed social isolation that the cult encourages.... What are the chances of being born without a similar mental affliction, with that genetic make-up? The gene pool is rather concentrated. Those who escape are fortunate; those who remain are apparently where they need to be. (Keep an eye on the children and grandchildren, sometimes a particular "trait" skips a generation or two. Not a whole lot can be done, though.) Agree Black Sheep ! The amount of mental Illness amongst the F & W is huge, people trying to follow man-made rules & feeling like they are never doing enough ! How many times at Convention do you hear "I want to go out this year & do better, I have failed so much in the past, had such a bad year "
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 17:22:15 GMT -5
Okay, I will answer the above question myself, as I expected I would have to do. (note - this could be any church, not just mine)
Who is wrong? Both are wrong.
The church dissident is wrong on various levels 1 - she is justifying herself 2 - she can't see that moderation, propriety and modest dress are covered a lot in scripture 3 - she is being sarcastic: of course, mini-skirts are not in scripture.
She is also right 1 - she is pointing out the church leader has engaged in tax evasion. (even though it's a red herring)
And the church leader is right 1 - yes the girl is being immodest by social standards, and many other church's standards
And the leader is wrong 1 - engaging in tax evasion.
Q - who is more likely to admit to a fault? A - The church leader
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 20, 2014 17:26:37 GMT -5
Bert if you look I answered !!! BUT you have NOT answered my question !!!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 17:33:41 GMT -5
Not sure now what your particular question was. Not sure if you answered mine properly.
Q - Are Workers apostles? A - No, apostles were the students of Jesus.
or was it one of those "where does it say in the bible" questions regards an item of dress? It doesn't say in the bible you can parade publicly in a g-string, for instance but then it doesn't say you must not engage in tax-evasion. But reading between the lines - both are wrong because:
the bible says to be modestly dressed, and honest.
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Post by rs on Nov 20, 2014 17:42:44 GMT -5
Now I wouldn't want to give you the impression that all of our young people are all that they should be. Sometimes our hearts ache when we see some of our young folks have such a glorious privilege and are not making use of it. We would like to think that for some of you young people who have come to this convention that haven't been too Christlike, haven't been too separated in your life, the effect of this Convention would send you forth, that you Sisters would be looking more like Sister Workers, and you Brothers would have more of the spirit of a Brother Worker. That is one of the purposes for which we come to Convention is that God would help us to see the worthwhileness of that taking place." thats the purpose of convention?
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 20, 2014 17:49:22 GMT -5
Not sure now what your particular question was. Not sure if you answered mine properly. Q - Are Workers apostles? A - No, apostles were the students of Jesus. or was it one of those "where does it say in the bible" questions regards an item of dress? It doesn't say in the bible you can parade publicly in a g-string, for instance but then it doesn't say you must not engage in tax-evasion. But reading between the lines - both are wrong because: the bible says to be modestly dressed, and honest.Bert if you read above I answered you ! I believe The Elder is wrong ! He is a place of responsibility, he knows he is engaged in tax -evasion yet he thinks he can tell someone how to dress. Instead of trying to justify himself his answer should have been ask God, pray about it. You seem to have a real hang-up about women clothes Bert ! (And Ex's Do you ever wonder why or even ask a person why they have become an Ex ? Or do you just assume they are bitter ex's ? It very easy to write a list of things you see as wrong like divorce for example, but have you been divorced? Do you think people choose to be divorced ? Thank you for answering my question re-Apostles.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 20, 2014 18:38:52 GMT -5
Where do you live honestable ? I would agree that maybe mental Illness is not as bad now as it was, a reason for this could be that people are getting help for mental issues whereas in the earlier years it was a taboo to go to a psychologist. Also mental illness is discussed more now than it used to be.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 19:17:15 GMT -5
Quote - "Bert if you read above I answered you ! I believe The Elder is wrong ! He is a place of responsibility, he knows he is engaged in tax -evasion yet he thinks he can tell someone how to dress. Instead of trying to justify himself his answer should have been ask God, pray about it."
To a point. Yes - Jesus mentioned this in His parable about the mote and beam. No - if you waited till you were perfect you couldn't speak on any issue. He is doing his job as an elder, minister, priest, whatever... And the dissenting girl just doesn't care - she allows people who care nothing for her church to dictate her dress standard.
I wouldn't mention to a police officer that he didn't use his turn signal, for instance, if he just pulled me to the kerb to book me for speeding. I have to accept - yes I was speeding.
Quote - "You seem to have a real hang-up about women clothes Bert ! (And Ex's Do you ever wonder why or even ask a person why they have become an Ex ? Or do you just assume they are bitter ex's ?"
I also have "hang ups" about adultery, drug abuse, violence, marital breakdown etc.. So did Jesus. So did the apostles, Paul and the author of Hebrews.
Quote - "It very easy to write a list of things you see as wrong like divorce for example, but have you been divorced? Do you think people choose to be divorced ?"
Not sure how to answer whether someone "chooses" divorce. It's not that simple. But Jesus said people divorce out of "hardness" and those who remarry "commit adultery."
It's not good to ask "where does it say in the bible" and then when it ACTUALLY DOES SAY something - ignore it.
Lots here on the TMB will lead you to believe divorce, adultery, immodesty, bad language etc are "trivial". They are not trivial - they occupy a huge part of the bible.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 19:17:57 GMT -5
Yeah, well I know of a few people who did most of what you are suggesting and still ended up miserable and mad as hell. Some found rest for their bodies in their graves, but I am not so sure that they found rest for their souls. My uncle on the maternal side of my family and his drinking buddies were like that. They were free from the shackles of the religious belief system alright. Some people live in the fast lane, die quick and get a pretty casket. How many people do you know "who did most of what (Matt was) suggesting and still ended up miserable and mad as hell?"
What did Your uncle & his drinking buddies believe or not believe? Are you admitting that results of religious does put people into "shackles?"
Was it more that your uncle & his buddies just enjoyed life? As long as they didn't go home & beat their children & wives, what was wrong with it?
All that you said had nothing really to do with what was posted about shedding the all the harmful beliefs associated with religion; the fear of burning in hell, or fear of how you were acting in the bedroom.
Psalm 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all ... biblehub.com/psalms/111-10.htm The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all those who practice it have a good understanding. His praise endures forever! The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments; His praise endures forever. What some may consider harmful beliefs associated with religeon, may be considered the bread of eternal life for others who believe in the existence of the Lord God.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 21, 2014 0:26:37 GMT -5
Quote - " Bert if you read above I answered you ! I believe The Elder is wrong ! He is a place of responsibility, he knows he is engaged in tax -evasion yet he thinks he can tell someone how to dress. Instead of trying to justify himself his answer should have been ask God, pray about it."To a point. Yes - Jesus mentioned this in His parable about the mote and beam. No - if you waited till you were perfect you couldn't speak on any issue. He is doing his job as an elder, minister, priest, whatever... And the dissenting girl just doesn't care - she allows people who care nothing for her church to dictate her dress standard.
I wouldn't mention to a police officer that he didn't use his turn signal, for instance, if he just pulled me to the kerb to book me for speeding. I have to accept - yes I was speeding. Quote - "You seem to have a real hang-up about women clothes Bert ! (And Ex's Do you ever wonder why or even ask a person why they have become an Ex ? Or do you just assume they are bitter ex's ?" I also have "hang ups" about adultery, drug abuse, violence, marital breakdown etc.. So did Jesus. So did the apostles, Paul and the author of Hebrews.Quote - " It very easy to write a list of things you see as wrong like divorce for example, but have you been divorced? Do you think people choose to be divorced ?"Not sure how to answer whether someone "chooses" divorce. It's not that simple. But Jesus said people divorce out of "hardness" and those who remarry "commit adultery."
It's not good to ask "where does it say in the bible" and then when it ACTUALLY DOES SAY something - ignore it.
Lots here on the TMB will lead you to believe divorce, adultery, immodesty, bad language etc are "trivial". They are not trivial - they occupy a huge part of the bible.That is so true Bert you cannot answer or have an answer if a person decides to divorce their partner even if their partner doesn't want a divorce ! Do you really think all people divorce out of hardness of their heart ? It is NOT always so black & white Bert, people are put in situations sometimes that are not of their own choosing & have to deal with things the best way they can. What if a person is committing adultery does the partner have to just put up with it ? Or if they are being physically abused ? Would you still say divorce is wrong in that situation?
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 21, 2014 3:38:17 GMT -5
No response Bert ?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2014 3:51:06 GMT -5
Quote - "Do you really think all people divorce out of hardness of their heart ? It is NOT always so black & white Bert, people are put in situations sometimes that are not of their own choosing & have to deal with things the best way they can. What if a person is committing adultery does the partner have to just put up with it ? Or if they are being physically abused ? Would you still say divorce is wrong in that situation?"
We understand that there's complexity in these issues. Didn't Jesus say "except for adultery" in His opposition to divorce? In one abusive situation I saw, a professing woman wanted to leave an abusive non-professing husband. The advise from the Workers was that she didn't have to divorce, just separate. The problem is not just a religious one - if divorce is too easy, more get divorced. And soon you reach a point where marriage doesn't mean anything. Then you have serious social problems.
So it seems sometimes unfair when a spouse, who has been cheated upon or abused, can't remarry. But the whole edifice of stable, protective and nurturing marriage has been built upon keeping (sometimes unhappy) people together. IMO
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 21, 2014 5:17:07 GMT -5
Quote - "Do you really think all people divorce out of hardness of their heart ? It is NOT always so black & white Bert, people are put in situations sometimes that are not of their own choosing & have to deal with things the best way they can. What if a person is committing adultery does the partner have to just put up with it ? Or if they are being physically abused ? Would you still say divorce is wrong in that situation?" We understand that there's complexity in these issues. Didn't Jesus say "except for adultery" in His opposition to divorce? In one abusive situation I saw, a professing woman wanted to leave an abusive non-professing husband. The advise from the Workers was that she didn't have to divorce, just separate. The problem is not just a religious one - if divorce is too easy, more get divorced. And soon you reach a point where marriage doesn't mean anything. Then you have serious social problems.
So it seems sometimes unfair when a spouse, who has been cheated upon or abused, can't remarry. But the whole edifice of stable, protective and nurturing marriage has been built upon keeping (sometimes unhappy) people together. IMOSo you feel a person should just keep living with their partner who is committing adultery ? That's right the great separation theory .. what is separating going to prove, if a person is committing adultery or have moved on to someone else the person left behind has to just put up with it ? Also you didn't answer the question if that person has moved on & wants a divorce what happens then ? Except for adultery seems to be used in some places & the person left can re-marry but again this is another example of how things vary from country to country ! We know what Mr Mackays view is on this issue except in cases where people are related to certain workers !! What about children raised in abusive marriages ? How can there be stability, protection & nurturing for anyone involved in an abusive relationship ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 21, 2014 5:18:07 GMT -5
As to saying divorce is too easy, you have no idea what you are talking about UNLESS you have been divorced !!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2014 5:41:45 GMT -5
"Just the facts, Ma'm." Divorce IS easier now than ever. The irony, particularly with people who for various reasons (trivial and non-trivial) want a divorce for some emotional reason, will increasingly find that re-marriage will offer no new emotional support because the very notion of marriage has been undermined.
I have often felt that if I was divorced I wouldn't want to remarry because young people who want to get married will see me as yet another proof that marriage doesn't really mean a whole lot anymore. So my "gain" in re-marriage would come at a "loss" (albeit micro, but multiplied by others) to those who want to get married, or stay married.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 21, 2014 6:21:37 GMT -5
"Just the facts, Ma'm." Divorce IS easier now than ever. The irony, particularly with people who for various reasons (trivial and non-trivial) want a divorce for some emotional reason, will increasingly find that re-marriage will offer no new emotional support because the very notion of marriage has been undermined. I have often felt that if I was divorced I wouldn't want to remarry because young people who want to get married will see me as yet another proof that marriage doesn't really mean a whole lot anymore. So my "gain" in re-marriage would come at a "loss" (albeit micro, but multiplied by others) to those who want to get married, or stay married. You really think you have all the answers Bert don't you ! Yet in reality you have no idea ! Not all people divorce because of trivial reasons, do you know what its like to have your partner committing adultery ? Do you know what its like to have your partner of 20 years leave you & your children, then go on & have another child with someone else ? Meanwhile they are still only separated from you? Do you really think people that re-marry have not gone through a lot of emotional trauma ? If you have not been divorced Bert, you have no idea how you would re-act as far as re-marriage goes ! It is not all black & white ! And if we lived in parts of USA we would be able to re-marry & still take part in meeting, so Bert who is right & who is wrong ?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2014 6:29:35 GMT -5
I said "trivial and non-trivial." Non-trivial is abuse, infidelity etc.. Trivial is boredom, change of life-style etc..
You are not reading all my words. A friend of ours, married for many years, was recently divorced. A man came to her house one day with a new washing machine. She hadn't ordered a new washing machine! The man said it was for her husband. But oh wait... wrong address. So this happless lady followed the van to the new address, and met her husband's other wife. That's a good ground for divorce, no?
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Post by rational on Nov 21, 2014 7:37:27 GMT -5
I said "trivial and non-trivial." Non-trivial is abuse, infidelity etc.. Trivial is boredom, change of life-style etc.. If you consider boredom as being unhappy then this is also non-trivial. You are passing judgement by basing what you consider trivial and non-trivial on your own definitions. There are people who provoke their mates to help eliminate the boredom. Many things, even things that many might consider negative, are better than nothing.
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Post by snow on Nov 21, 2014 14:46:01 GMT -5
You never heard those things preached, Tom?
How long have you been "professing?" I am starting to think SOME men have selective hearing ! since it doesn't pertain to them, they don't care and will go to great lengths to deny, deny, deny. The typical ones deny anything they don't like to hear. Doesn't make it true that it was never preached though. Just means they don't care or don't have a clue.
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