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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2014 14:00:13 GMT -5
Can you give us some 'text' on this? Paraphrased if you want. Personally the only work I've heard that enables salvation is obedience to the Holy Spirit or living out the teaching of Jesus. I think that's Biblical... and may even be somewhat different for any person depending on the gift of the Spirit they have received. I just came across this the other day. Who says that "works" are not important. There are Books in which are written "our works" and we will be judged according to them Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.Of course I am not referring to our own works but those in which the Spirit of God can work in and through us, producing the fruit of the Spirit etc. Anyway, don't be misled by those who discount "works." The real question is "which Works."
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Post by bubbles on Nov 18, 2014 16:09:28 GMT -5
As I said it is an emotional experience and in Acts 2 it was just that. I would say a conversion is an emotional experience too. Some thing wrong if we had no emotion attached to it. As I also said, there were some who did not understand it and thought they were drunk in the Bible. There was a difference between when the Holy Spirit fell on the multitudes and when tongues was spoken by a believer in their meetings. That difference is present today in Pentecostal services where the congregation praise God in worship in their own language (heavenly language if you want to call it that) and an individual speaks in tongues and someone interprets. One is the multitude, the other is an individual. There is also a difference with someone receiving the Holy Spirit or Baptised in the Holy Spirit as they call it and someone who has the gift of tongues and brings a message in tongues with an interpreter. Baptism in the Holy Spirit can be a one off whereas someone with the gift of tongues uses it on other occasions and there is an interpreter. Paul was speaking of the latter. he does not seem to be against tongues just against it if there is no interpreter as it is no use to others if there is not an interpreter. I disagree that the person is not in control of it like Nathan claims he was not. They say that the person must be in control of it. Mary ~ I do not believe the Bible actually supports some "heavenly unknown prayer language," as some may interpret I Corinthians 14 to convey, which is in direct contrast with Acts 2, where the apostles spoke in actual languages (unknown to them personally) that visitors to Jerusalem understood. I'm sure it did appear as an emotional experience to onlookers, who thought these people were drunk, but it did witness to the unbelievers present at the time and 3,000 were recorded as saved as a result. The bible supports the gifts of the spirit. Would you feel the same about the gift of faith or the gift of discernment? Or any other gift. You might about prophecy. People who havent experienced spiritual gifts are usually the biggest critics. If I was stil in meetings I would probably agree that the gifts are not for today. Only because the workers dont teach they are.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2014 16:20:43 GMT -5
There is no one thing that can follow that statement. We like to say that we are the same all over the world, but the truth is that we are not even of the same beliefs as those in our own meetings. I have heard salvation by works preached and in the same convention, another worker preached the message of the cross and salvation is by grace alone. This year at convention we learned that one of the works is to give up our pets since many workers have pet allergies. Losing our dog made our whole family depressed. We still miss him months later. Good works follow AFTER Salvation by the grace of God through Jesus Christ death on Calvary. I stayed in the friends homes with dogs and cats, which had fleas, and they ate me ALIVE for dinner. Yes, the pets allergies made my life miserable, hard to prepare for the meetings, when I sneezing, having running nose, and severe headaches. The friends should keep their pets clean, vacuum the house often so when visitors come they don't get allergies, and eaten for breakfast, lunch and dinner.Nathan, as you often say, "it ain't over until the fat lady sings!" Salvation is ultimately determined in Revelation Chapter 20. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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Post by faune on Nov 18, 2014 16:47:50 GMT -5
Christianburg ~ Perhaps when the workers became your only source of salvation in the world through following their exclusive teaching and labeling all other churches as false? The JW's and Mormons follow the same line of thinking along with other exclusive groups who follow the same "salvation plus works" mentality through them only. That was NEVER the message of the Cross and Jesus, according to John 3:16. They changed it to suit their own preferences. Within the 2x2's it came with the addition of the Living Witness Doctrine in 1907 which became "the guiding rule" within the 2x2's. Anybody who didn't adhere to their particular party line were excommunicated from the fellowship. John Long was one of the first workers to go due to his opposition to such a teaching and others followed, too. Just check out Cherie's TTT site for more information along these lines with documented evidence from letters penned by William Irvine himself along with others.
Also, you might check out some of the old convention notes on line where these older workers exposed their "elder brother" teaching about Jesus and what it meant. Just think about it, when was the last time you ever heard a worker speak on the message of the Cross and what it meant for humanity or about "imputed righteousness and salvation by grace" as a result of accepting Christ's sacrifice on our part and believing His message of redemption? My guess would be never heard it mentioned, since you are taught that you have to "earn your salvation" by all the works they prescribed and follow the workers to the letter, not Jesus, to even have any hope of salvation? JMT
Since my beginning in 1956 I have always heard that salvation came through redemption by Christ only and there is nothing we can do to merit this. These are the kinds of sermons preached by the ministry today. So to say we don't believe in Calvary is just an example of the misrepresentation that is perpetrated continuously. I reject such comments. As to what Wm Irvine preached it has already been established that he was a misguided man. These comments are in my Critique of "Shape of the Shapeless Movement" in Nov. 2013. "At a convention in Eastern USA in 1999, Don Garland mentioned these things as to why Calvary was necessary: Romans 14: 9, that he might be Lord both of the living and the dead, (if Christ is not our Lord then the purpose of Calvary is not being fulfilled); II Cor. 5: 15, He died for all that they which live might not henceforth live unto themselves; Gal. 1: 4, ...who gave himself for our sins that he might deliver us from the present evil world; Titus 2: 14 ...who gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all inequity...; I Peter 3: 18,...for Christ also hath once suffered for us, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God... For me, this carries a more weighty definition of what we believe than just the church in the home and a 2x2 ministry." Christianburg ~ My question was in direct relation to the subject of imputed righteousness and being saved by grace, available to all humanity, being preached by a worker ~ not just for members of the 2x2's. In other words, when was the last time you heard a worker speak about "imputed righteousness" described in Romans 4, since that's a major part connected to Christian teaching today? I can never recall hearing that preached upon in my 30 years of professing, since it regards Christ imputing his righteousness to our account regarding our sin debt being paid-in-full. In other words when it comes to Judgment Day, God sees us purified by the blood of the Lamb, His Son, and our sins are remembered no more. There's no mention in that chapter of works centered around "dying to self" in the things we must give up and following the workers to the letter" to be found acceptable or approved in God's eyes either.
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%204 Romans 4
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Post by fred on Nov 18, 2014 17:02:18 GMT -5
Can you give us some 'text' on this? Paraphrased if you want. Personally the only work I've heard that enables salvation is obedience to the Holy Spirit or living out the teaching of Jesus. I think that's Biblical... and may even be somewhat different for any person depending on the gift of the Spirit they have received. I don't think most workers have given much thought to the question of 'works' in the scheme of being saved. They would never explicitly preach that we will be saved by our works and when asked will respond negatively to that suggestion. However the general thrust of preaching is that we will not know of our salvation until we pass form this earth, that we will be judged according to our performance. Implicit in this belief is salvation by works. Have you ever noticed the hesitation if you ask, "Are you saved?", or "do you have salvation?" New testament writers were not so hesitant.
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Post by faune on Nov 18, 2014 17:16:06 GMT -5
Mary ~ I do not believe the Bible actually supports some "heavenly unknown prayer language," as some may interpret I Corinthians 14 to convey, which is in direct contrast with Acts 2, where the apostles spoke in actual languages (unknown to them personally) that visitors to Jerusalem understood. I'm sure it did appear as an emotional experience to onlookers, who thought these people were drunk, but it did witness to the unbelievers present at the time and 3,000 were recorded as saved as a result. The bible supports the gifts of the spirit. Would you feel the same about the gift of faith or the gift of discernment? Or any other gift. You might about prophecy. People who havent experienced spiritual gifts are usually the biggest critics. If I was stil in meetings I would probably agree that the gifts are not for today. Only because the workers dont teach they are. Bubbles ~ I'm not saying the Gifts of the Spirit are not for today, as I believe they are still being evidenced within the world as as listed in I Corinthians 12. What I'm saying is in regard to the "gift of tongues" and "interpretation of tongues" in early Christianity as being different from what some call today their "personal (heavenly) prayer language." There's nothing in the Bible to actually support Christians being given any particular "prayer language" other than their own voices. Even the Early Church Fathers attested to this fact in their own comments regarding the gift of tongues. As anybody can see from their description, the "gift of tongues" had pretty much faded from existence by the second century. However, I do feel that some missionaries today are given special gifts in their ability to learn and speak different languages to minister in foreign fields. However, tongues was never given just for self-edification as they make it out to be today within Pentecostal churches. Also, the concept of being "slain in the spirit" is another thing that you don't find anywhere in the Bible where people fall backwards in a trance and enter some heavenly realm. However, this sort of thing was found within the mystery religions around Corinth and Rome where worshipers demonstrated a trance-like state and "spoke in ecstatic tongues" as their emotions moved with the music. Just check out the reference I gave earlier for any clarification along these lines, too.
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+12 I Corinthians 12 ~ Gifts of the Spirit
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2014 I Corinthians 14 ~ Tongues Problem at Corinth
www.seeking4truth.com/tongues_corinth.html Tongues and the Mystery Religions of Corinth
www.tms.edu/tmsj/17e.pdf
THE GIFT OF TONGUES: COMPARING THE CHURCH FATHERS WITH CONTEMPORARY PENTECOSTALISM
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Post by emy on Nov 18, 2014 18:19:33 GMT -5
...There's no mention in that chapter of works centered around "dying to self" in the things we must give up ... Check here: Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
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Post by emy on Nov 18, 2014 18:32:27 GMT -5
Can you give us some 'text' on this? Paraphrased if you want. Personally the only work I've heard that enables salvation is obedience to the Holy Spirit or living out the teaching of Jesus. I think that's Biblical... and may even be somewhat different for any person depending on the gift of the Spirit they have received. I don't think most workers have given much thought to the question of 'works' in the scheme of being saved. They would never explicitly preach that we will be saved by our works and when asked will respond negatively to that suggestion. However the general thrust of preaching is that we will not know of our salvation until we pass form this earth, that we will be judged according to our performance. Implicit in this belief is salvation by works. Have you ever noticed the hesitation if you ask, "Are you saved?", or "do you have salvation?" New testament writers were not so hesitant. I think some writers made it clear that we must remain "sealed" until redemption: Luke 21:28 (NIV) When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Eph. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
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Post by emy on Nov 18, 2014 18:34:42 GMT -5
Can someone show me the verse(s) that say speaking in tongues is a gift of the Spirit?
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Post by faune on Nov 18, 2014 18:38:34 GMT -5
...There's no mention in that chapter of works centered around "dying to self" in the things we must give up ... Check here: Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Emy ~ I was referring to Romans 4 and what it says about imputed righteousness and the gift of salvation being a direct result of God's grace and nothing we can earn by our works. However, in the verse you quoted above, which is often used by the workers in support of their "unwritten rules" regarding your hair, dress, lifestyle, as being adhered to in order to gain workers' approval and God's acceptance. Other than the Bible encouraging modesty in dress and behavior, there's no actually commandment regarding a woman's hair to be long, even in I Corinthians 11, which the workers also use as a proof text.
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%204 Romans 4
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2011 I Corinthians 11
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Post by faune on Nov 18, 2014 18:50:36 GMT -5
Can someone show me the verse(s) that say speaking in tongues is a gift of the Spirit? Emy ~ You can find the reference to the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues within I Corinthians 12:10. This chapter also discusses all the Gifts of the Spirit and describes them. In addition, tongues is not a gift given to every born again Christian, as taught by Pentecostals today either.
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+12 I Corinthians 12:10, 11.
(Verse 10 deals with Gift of miracles, discernment, tongues, and interpretation of tongues.)
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Post by christiansburg on Nov 18, 2014 18:51:42 GMT -5
Since my beginning in 1956 I have always heard that salvation came through redemption by Christ only and there is nothing we can do to merit this. These are the kinds of sermons preached by the ministry today. So to say we don't believe in Calvary is just an example of the misrepresentation that is perpetrated continuously. I reject such comments. As to what Wm Irvine preached it has already been established that he was a misguided man. These comments are in my Critique of "Shape of the Shapeless Movement" in Nov. 2013. "At a convention in Eastern USA in 1999, Don Garland mentioned these things as to why Calvary was necessary: Romans 14: 9, that he might be Lord both of the living and the dead, (if Christ is not our Lord then the purpose of Calvary is not being fulfilled); II Cor. 5: 15, He died for all that they which live might not henceforth live unto themselves; Gal. 1: 4, ...who gave himself for our sins that he might deliver us from the present evil world; Titus 2: 14 ...who gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all inequity...; I Peter 3: 18,...for Christ also hath once suffered for us, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God... For me, this carries a more weighty definition of what we believe than just the church in the home and a 2x2 ministry." Christianburg ~ My question was in direct relation to the subject of imputed righteousness and being saved by grace, available to all humanity, being preached by a worker ~ not just for members of the 2x2's. In other words, when was the last time you heard a worker speak about "imputed righteousness" described in Romans 4, since that's a major part connected to Christian teaching today? I can never recall hearing that preached upon in my 30 years of professing, since it regards Christ imputing his righteousness to our account regarding our sin debt being paid-in-full. In other words when it comes to Judgment Day, God sees us purified by the blood of the Lamb, His Son, and our sins are remembered no more. There's no mention in that chapter of works centered around "dying to self" in the things we must give up and following the workers to the letter" to be found acceptable or approved in God's eyes either.
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%204 Romans 4
I guess I would ask you this question. What kind of righteousness was imputed to those in the judgement to whom the Lord said: "Depart from me ye workers of iniquity"?
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Post by faune on Nov 18, 2014 18:56:04 GMT -5
I don't think most workers have given much thought to the question of 'works' in the scheme of being saved. They would never explicitly preach that we will be saved by our works and when asked will respond negatively to that suggestion. However the general thrust of preaching is that we will not know of our salvation until we pass form this earth, that we will be judged according to our performance. Implicit in this belief is salvation by works. Have you ever noticed the hesitation if you ask, "Are you saved?", or "do you have salvation?" New testament writers were not so hesitant. I think some writers made it clear that we must remain "sealed" until redemption: Luke 21:28 (NIV) When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Eph. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Emy ~ Actually this process of being "sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise" is what is described as our "guarantee of salvation or redemption." Also, there would also be demonstrated on our part that "perseverance of the saints" found among the true believers who are born again of the Holy Spirit. The victory is gained due to the Christ spirit on the inside motivating them forward.
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Post by faune on Nov 18, 2014 18:58:48 GMT -5
Christianburg ~ My question was in direct relation to the subject of imputed righteousness and being saved by grace, available to all humanity, being preached by a worker ~ not just for members of the 2x2's. In other words, when was the last time you heard a worker speak about "imputed righteousness" described in Romans 4, since that's a major part connected to Christian teaching today? I can never recall hearing that preached upon in my 30 years of professing, since it regards Christ imputing his righteousness to our account regarding our sin debt being paid-in-full. In other words when it comes to Judgment Day, God sees us purified by the blood of the Lamb, His Son, and our sins are remembered no more. There's no mention in that chapter of works centered around "dying to self" in the things we must give up and following the workers to the letter" to be found acceptable or approved in God's eyes either.
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%204 Romans 4
I guess I would ask you this question. What kind of righteousness was imputed to those in the judgment to whom the Lord said: "Depart from me ye workers of iniquity"? Christianburg ~ Those labeled "workers of iniquity" would be those who professed to be righteous, but were not obedient to God, but doing their own thing contrary to what Jesus taught. They were called false prophets by Jesus and false teachers by Paul, due to their teaching a different gospel and presenting another Jesus than the one found in scripture. You can read about them in Matthew 7:20-26 and Galatians 1 & 2, to discover what they were doing that was not acceptable to God ~ namely preaching a different gospel and another Jesus than the one presented in the gospels.
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7 Matthew 7
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+1-2 Galatians 1 & 2
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Post by emy on Nov 18, 2014 19:04:00 GMT -5
Check here: Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Emy ~ I was referring to Romans 4 and what it says about imputed righteousness and the gift of salvation being a direct result of God's grace and nothing we can earn by our works. However, in the verse you quoted above, which is often used by the workers in support of their "unwritten rules" regarding your hair, dress, lifestyle, as being adhered to in order to gain workers' approval and God's acceptance. Other than the Bible encouraging modesty in dress and behavior, there's no actually commandment regarding a woman's hair to be long, even in I Corinthians 11, which the workers also use as a proof text.
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%204 Romans 4
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2011 I Corinthians 11
Yes, I know you specified that chapter, but surely you wouldn't disregard the words of Jesus. About what are called 'rules', if one doesn't feel any conviction about them in spirit, suit yourself. With modesty and moderation, of course.
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Post by bubbles on Nov 18, 2014 19:09:11 GMT -5
The bible supports the gifts of the spirit. Would you feel the same about the gift of faith or the gift of discernment? Or any other gift. You might about prophecy. People who havent experienced spiritual gifts are usually the biggest critics. If I was stil in meetings I would probably agree that the gifts are not for today. Only because the workers dont teach they are. Bubbles ~ I'm not saying the Gifts of the Spirit are not for today, as I believe they are still being evidenced within the world as as listed in I Corinthians 12. What I'm saying is in regard to the "gift of tongues" and "interpretation of tongues" in early Christianity as being different from what some call today their "personal (heavenly) prayer language." There's nothing in the Bible to actually support Christians being given any particular "prayer language" other than their own voices. Even the Early Church Fathers attested to this fact in their own comments regarding the gift of tongues. As anybody can see from their description, the "gift of tongues" had pretty much faded from existence by the second century. However, I do feel that some missionaries today are given special gifts in their ability to learn and speak different languages to minister in foreign fields. However, tongues was never given just for self-edification as they make it out to be today within Pentecostal churches. Also, the concept of being "slain in the spirit" is another thing that you don't find anywhere in the Bible where people fall backwards in a trance and enter some heavenly realm. However, this sort of thing was found within the mystery religions around Corinth and Rome where worshipers demonstrated a trance-like state and "spoke in ecstatic tongues" as their emotions moved with the music. Just check out the reference I gave earlier for any clarification along these lines, too.
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+12 I Corinthians 12 ~ Gifts of the Spirit
www.seeking4truth.com/tongues_corinth.html Tongues and the Mystery Religions of Corinth
www.tms.edu/tmsj/17e.pdf
THE GIFT OF TONGUES: COMPARING THE CHURCH FATHERS WITH CONTEMPORARY PENTECOSTALISM
Faune I cant line up your comments with the first website you gave. Gtg
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Post by faune on Nov 18, 2014 19:23:58 GMT -5
Emy ~ I was referring to Romans 4 and what it says about imputed righteousness and the gift of salvation being a direct result of God's grace and nothing we can earn by our works. However, in the verse you quoted above, which is often used by the workers in support of their "unwritten rules" regarding your hair, dress, lifestyle, as being adhered to in order to gain workers' approval and God's acceptance. Other than the Bible encouraging modesty in dress and behavior, there's no actually commandment regarding a woman's hair to be long, even in I Corinthians 11, which the workers also use as a proof text.
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%204 Romans 4
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2011 I Corinthians 11
Yes, I know you specified that chapter, but surely you wouldn't disregard the words of Jesus. About what are called 'rules', if one doesn't feel any conviction about them in spirit, suit yourself. With modesty and moderation, of course. Emy ~ My real point was that Jesus taught self denial in the form of taking on the heart of a servant and serving others. Also, the Bible does teach modesty and moderation and self control within our lives, but it doesn't set out guidelines in dress, hair, worldly possessions, etc., as the workers have done for years. Jesus taught self denial in the form of possessing a servant's heart towards helping others and not being taken up instead with ourselves and worldly gain. The parable of the Good Samaritan found in Luke 10:25-37 is a good example of this, too.
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2010:25-37 Luke 10:25-37
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Post by emy on Nov 18, 2014 19:34:52 GMT -5
I think some writers made it clear that we must remain "sealed" until redemption: Luke 21:28 (NIV) When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Eph. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Emy ~ Actually this process of being "sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise" is what is described as our "guarantee of salvation or redemption." Also, there would also be demonstrated on our part that "perseverance of the saints" found among the true believers who are born again of the Holy Spirit. The victory is gained due to the Christ spirit on the inside motivating them forward. Do you believe that anyone could ever grieve the Spirit or starve him or crowd him out so that he would no longer guide?
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Post by faune on Nov 18, 2014 19:40:20 GMT -5
Bubbles ~ I'm not saying the Gifts of the Spirit are not for today, as I believe they are still being evidenced within the world as as listed in I Corinthians 12. What I'm saying is in regard to the "gift of tongues" and "interpretation of tongues" in early Christianity as being different from what some call today their "personal (heavenly) prayer language." There's nothing in the Bible to actually support Christians being given any particular "prayer language" other than their own voices. Even the Early Church Fathers attested to this fact in their own comments regarding the gift of tongues. As anybody can see from their description, the "gift of tongues" had pretty much faded from existence by the second century. However, I do feel that some missionaries today are given special gifts in their ability to learn and speak different languages to minister in foreign fields. However, tongues was never given just for self-edification as they make it out to be today within Pentecostal churches. Also, the concept of being "slain in the spirit" is another thing that you don't find anywhere in the Bible where people fall backwards in a trance and enter some heavenly realm. However, this sort of thing was found within the mystery religions around Corinth and Rome where worshipers demonstrated a trance-like state and "spoke in ecstatic tongues" as their emotions moved with the music. Just check out the reference I gave earlier for any clarification along these lines, too.
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+12 I Corinthians 12 ~ Gifts of the Spirit
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2014 I Corinthians 14 ~ Tongues Problem at Corinth
www.seeking4truth.com/tongues_corinth.html Tongues and the Mystery Religions of Corinth
www.tms.edu/tmsj/17e.pdf
THE GIFT OF TONGUES: COMPARING THE CHURCH FATHERS WITH CONTEMPORARY PENTECOSTALISM
Faune I cant line up your comments with the first website you gave. Gtg Perhaps I should have also shown I Corinthians 14, which I just added above, due to the problem of tongues at Corinth, which Paul was addressing in this chapter?
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2014 I Corinthians 14
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Post by faune on Nov 18, 2014 19:55:41 GMT -5
While we are discussing different spiritual gifts listed in the Bible, I came across this area that gives a good picture of the many gifts distributed within the church for the purpose of edification or building up the body of Christ.
mintools.com/gifts-list.htm Spiritual Gifts List & Definitions ~ What are the different spiritual gifts?
www.gotquestions.org/spiritual-gifts-list.html Spiritual Gifts Lists
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Post by bubbles on Nov 18, 2014 23:27:55 GMT -5
Looks like you did your homework. The workings of spiritual gifts for me is a wonderful thing no matter what it is. I love to see the body of christ functioning in their place within the body. It fascinates me eg: to observe an evangelist anointing. Or a strong teaching gift. Also the gift of prophecy can be a tremendous blessing to someones life. One of the saddest things about the way churches are run is denying the power of the word denying the gifts of the spirit. Denying the power of the holy spirit working with the word aiding humanity.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2014 5:16:53 GMT -5
Emy ~ Actually this process of being "sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise" is what is described as our "guarantee of salvation or redemption." Also, there would also be demonstrated on our part that "perseverance of the saints" found among the true believers who are born again of the Holy Spirit. The victory is gained due to the Christ spirit on the inside motivating them forward. Do you believe that anyone could ever grieve the Spirit or starve him or crowd him out so that he would no longer guide? I certainly believe in the eternal security of "believers." I do not believe in the insecurity of non-believers. Belief is something that must continue to the end. It is this which receives the seal.
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Post by Brick on Nov 19, 2014 7:33:39 GMT -5
I doubt very much that anyone believes a person can be saved by giving up a pet! (Or not saved by not giving it up.) Many workers have allergies, but few are so severe they can't tolerate a pet for night or two? Of course if every home has a pet indoors..... Careful Emy. You're stepping on an overseer's toes.
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Post by Brick on Nov 19, 2014 7:39:34 GMT -5
Can you give us some 'text' on this? Paraphrased if you want. Personally the only work I've heard that enables salvation is obedience to the Holy Spirit or living out the teaching of Jesus. I think that's Biblical... and may even be somewhat different for any person depending on the gift of the Spirit they have received. The gist of what was spoken was analogous to the story of Noah and the ark. Noah had to DO something in order to be saved from the flood. All the faith and grace in the world wouldn't have lifted him above the water if he hadn't done the work of building the ark. This was a few years prior to telling us that we needed to get rid of our pets.
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Post by christiansburg on Nov 19, 2014 10:09:26 GMT -5
I guess I would ask you this question. What kind of righteousness was imputed to those in the judgment to whom the Lord said: "Depart from me ye workers of iniquity"? Christianburg ~ Those labeled "workers of iniquity" would be those who professed to be righteous, but were not obedient to God, but doing their own thing contrary to what Jesus taught. They were called false prophets by Jesus and false teachers by Paul, due to their teaching a different gospel and presenting another Jesus than the one found in scripture. You can read about them in Matthew 7:20-26 and Galatians 1 & 2, to discover what they were doing that was not acceptable to God ~ namely preaching a different gospel and another Jesus than the one presented in the gospels.
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7 Matthew 7
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+1-2 Galatians 1 & 2
So then there are some to whom imputed righteousness does not apply. I am not sure what you heard in meetings while in this fellowship but the workers do espouse the doctrine of living under grace and that Christ imputed righteousness to those who accept him and it brings forth fruits of the spirit in their live. Even though works do not save, works are a result of a Christ filled life. It is like I mentioned before some of these labels as to the comparison between Mormon's, Jehovah's witness and the 2x2's is actually "baloney". Even though we continue to say that we don't believe that we are saved by our works people continue to apply that label to us. It does make for a good argument against us but it is just not true. Faune, I do believe you are a very sincere individual, as are many others on this board, there are just so many negative labels thrown out there that are not true. It does mislead people.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2014 10:31:39 GMT -5
Christianburg ~ Those labeled "workers of iniquity" would be those who professed to be righteous, but were not obedient to God, but doing their own thing contrary to what Jesus taught. They were called false prophets by Jesus and false teachers by Paul, due to their teaching a different gospel and presenting another Jesus than the one found in scripture. You can read about them in Matthew 7:20-26 and Galatians 1 & 2, to discover what they were doing that was not acceptable to God ~ namely preaching a different gospel and another Jesus than the one presented in the gospels.
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7 Matthew 7
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+1-2 Galatians 1 & 2
So then there are some to whom imputed righteousness does not apply. I am not sure what you heard in meetings while in this fellowship but the workers do espouse the doctrine of living under grace and that Christ imputed righteousness to those who accept him and it brings forth fruits of the spirit in their live. Even though works do not save, works are a result of a Christ filled life. It is like I mentioned before some of these labels as to the comparison between Mormon's, Jehovah's witness and the 2x2's is actually "baloney". Even though we continue to say that we don't believe that we are saved by our works people continue to apply that label to us. It does make for a good argument against us but it is just not true. Faune, I do believe you are a very sincere individual, as are many others on this board, there are just so many negative labels thrown out there that are not true. It does mislead people. Yet we will be judged by our works!
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Post by faune on Nov 19, 2014 10:59:25 GMT -5
Emy ~ Actually this process of being "sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise" is what is described as our "guarantee of salvation or redemption." Also, there would also be demonstrated on our part that "perseverance of the saints" found among the true believers who are born again of the Holy Spirit. The victory is gained due to the Christ spirit on the inside motivating them forward. Do you believe that anyone could ever grieve the Spirit or starve him or crowd him out so that he would no longer guide? Emy ~ Scripture does say that you can grieve the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30) and also quench the Holy Spirit (I Thessalonians 5:19), but that doesn't mean that the Spirit of God leaves you as a result. You're just cutting off the communication lines for a while due to resistance to the Spirit's leading. I liked the way this article explains this ~ "If grieving is doing what you shouldn’t... quenching is not doing what you should!" I feel this author gives us a better understanding of how the Spirit works in our lives and also what we can do to hinder the Holy Spirit's work, too?
www.jesusplusnothing.com/studies/online/Isaiah63.htm
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Post by faune on Nov 19, 2014 12:04:53 GMT -5
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